Difficulty understanding the AA "12 steps".
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Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: virgin islands
Posts: 145
Why does it have to be infinitely strong?
I'm not religious, and I don't have my answer..... Yet. Doesn't make me stop looking though. Call it a journey of discovery. Maybe it's the journey that is the higher power, not the destination. Just a thought.
We do whatever we can to not drink today. Not drinking also opens the door to TRUE personal/spiritual growth, if we are open to it.
Good luck in your quest for sobriety. (Ha - is luck spiritual?)
I'm not religious, and I don't have my answer..... Yet. Doesn't make me stop looking though. Call it a journey of discovery. Maybe it's the journey that is the higher power, not the destination. Just a thought.
We do whatever we can to not drink today. Not drinking also opens the door to TRUE personal/spiritual growth, if we are open to it.
Good luck in your quest for sobriety. (Ha - is luck spiritual?)
Sober Alcoholic
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 3,539
Originally Posted by MightyMung 
Did the steps lead to a spiritual experience for you?
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information,
which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail
to keep a man in everlasting ignorance—that principle is
contempt prior to investigation."
All quotations are from the 1st edition of “Alcoholics Anonymous”
erroneously attributing the quote to Herbert Spencer.
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Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Between Meetings
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I had a hard time with the thought of a "Spiritual Awakening" or "Spiritual Experience" as I read that book....Probably just a fear I wouldn't get one....Or I wouldn't know what it was when I did. In the "The Doctors Opinion" the doctor talks about an entire psychic change was necessesary to recover...This was easier for me to wrap my head around....Completely changing the way I thought and lived my life. Living by principles that were the opposite of what I had been living. Caring for others and less about myself...Being honest instead of lying...Practicing forgiveness...Tolerance...Words not very big in my vocabulary when I drank. When you practice living like that everyday...Practicing the principles....It becomes a part of your working mind....You become a better person and good things start to happen to you. The way to get there is working those steps. The only way to find out if they work is to do them. This is from The Doctors Opinion.
Men and women drink essentially because they like the effect produced by alcohol. The sensation is so elusive that, while they admit it is injurious, they cannot after a time differentiate the true from the false. To them, their alcoholic life seems the only normal one. They are restless, irritable and discontented, unless they can again experience the sense of ease and comfort which comes at once by taking a few drinks-drinks which they see others taking with impunity. After they have succumbed to the desire again, as so many do, and the phenomenon of craving develops, they pass through the well-known stages of a spree, emerging remorseful, with a firm resolution not to drink again. This is repeated over and over, and unless this person can experience an entire psychic change there is very little hope of his recovery.
This was added at the end of the book after the first printing...Probably because people felt like I did.
The terms “spiritual experience” and “spiritual awakening” are used many times in this book which, upon careful reading, shows that the personality change sufficient to bring about recovery from alcoholism has manifested itself among us in many different forms.
Yet it is true that our first printing gave many readers the impression that these personality changes, or religious experiences, must be in the nature of sudden and spectacular upheavals. Happily for everyone, this conclusion is erroneous. In the first few chapters a number of sudden revolutionary changes are described. Though it was not our intention to create such an impression, many alcoholics have nevertheless concluded that in order to recover they must acquire an immediate and overwhelming “God-consciousness” followed at once by a vast change in feeling and outlook.
Among our rapidly growing membership of thousands of alcoholics such transformations, though frequent, are by no means the rule. Most of our experiences are what the psychologist William James calls the “educational variety” because they develop slowly over a period of time. Quite often friends of the newcomer are aware of the difference long before he is himself. He finally realizes that he has undergone a profound alteration in his reaction to life; that such a change could hardly have been brought about by himself alone. What often takes place in a few months could seldom have been accomplished by years of self discipline. With few exceptions our members find that they have tapped an unsuspected inner resource which they presently identify with their own conception of a Power greater than themselves.
Most of us think this awareness of a Power greater than ourselves is the essence of spiritual experience. Our more religious members call it “God-consciousness.”
Most emphatically we wish to say that any alcoholic capable of honestly facing his problems in the light of our experience can recover, provided he does not close his mind to all spiritual concepts. He can only be defeated by an attitude of intolerance or belligerent denial.
We find that no one need have difficulty with the spirituality of the program. Willingness, honesty and open mindedness are the essentials of recovery. But these are indispensable.
BB First Edition
Men and women drink essentially because they like the effect produced by alcohol. The sensation is so elusive that, while they admit it is injurious, they cannot after a time differentiate the true from the false. To them, their alcoholic life seems the only normal one. They are restless, irritable and discontented, unless they can again experience the sense of ease and comfort which comes at once by taking a few drinks-drinks which they see others taking with impunity. After they have succumbed to the desire again, as so many do, and the phenomenon of craving develops, they pass through the well-known stages of a spree, emerging remorseful, with a firm resolution not to drink again. This is repeated over and over, and unless this person can experience an entire psychic change there is very little hope of his recovery.
This was added at the end of the book after the first printing...Probably because people felt like I did.
Spiritual Experience
The terms “spiritual experience” and “spiritual awakening” are used many times in this book which, upon careful reading, shows that the personality change sufficient to bring about recovery from alcoholism has manifested itself among us in many different forms.
Yet it is true that our first printing gave many readers the impression that these personality changes, or religious experiences, must be in the nature of sudden and spectacular upheavals. Happily for everyone, this conclusion is erroneous. In the first few chapters a number of sudden revolutionary changes are described. Though it was not our intention to create such an impression, many alcoholics have nevertheless concluded that in order to recover they must acquire an immediate and overwhelming “God-consciousness” followed at once by a vast change in feeling and outlook.
Among our rapidly growing membership of thousands of alcoholics such transformations, though frequent, are by no means the rule. Most of our experiences are what the psychologist William James calls the “educational variety” because they develop slowly over a period of time. Quite often friends of the newcomer are aware of the difference long before he is himself. He finally realizes that he has undergone a profound alteration in his reaction to life; that such a change could hardly have been brought about by himself alone. What often takes place in a few months could seldom have been accomplished by years of self discipline. With few exceptions our members find that they have tapped an unsuspected inner resource which they presently identify with their own conception of a Power greater than themselves.
Most of us think this awareness of a Power greater than ourselves is the essence of spiritual experience. Our more religious members call it “God-consciousness.”
Most emphatically we wish to say that any alcoholic capable of honestly facing his problems in the light of our experience can recover, provided he does not close his mind to all spiritual concepts. He can only be defeated by an attitude of intolerance or belligerent denial.
We find that no one need have difficulty with the spirituality of the program. Willingness, honesty and open mindedness are the essentials of recovery. But these are indispensable.
BB First Edition
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Originally Posted by MightyMung
Okay okay.. last post then I will go to work.. I swear! 
What you said has been very helpful ^
So anything can be your 'God', as long as it provides you the strength to stop drinking, correct?
Taking my one hobby as an example - bodybuilding.
I bodybuild to improve myself (set aside any self-esteem issues here, take at face value).
Bodybuilding, when I engage fully, prevents me from drinking - I feel guilty if I drink.
I still want to drink, so I begin to resent the bodybuilding after a few months.
Then, something happens - I get an illness, or injure myself. Suddenly, bodybuilding isn't there anymore, I'm in bed ill, or can't get to the gym because my ankle hurts.
AV kicks in and says "the reason for you to not drink has gone" - voice starts biting back. I lose muscle through not training, and it seizes this opportunity to make me drink.
THIS is the problem with not being religious in AA. For truly religious people, God is omnipotent, present, scient and benevolent. Bodybuilding isn't - it is transient, and will end - whether due to age or injury.
How can one who isn't religious find an infinitely strong higher power?
What you said has been very helpful ^
So anything can be your 'God', as long as it provides you the strength to stop drinking, correct?
Taking my one hobby as an example - bodybuilding.
I bodybuild to improve myself (set aside any self-esteem issues here, take at face value).
Bodybuilding, when I engage fully, prevents me from drinking - I feel guilty if I drink.
I still want to drink, so I begin to resent the bodybuilding after a few months.
Then, something happens - I get an illness, or injure myself. Suddenly, bodybuilding isn't there anymore, I'm in bed ill, or can't get to the gym because my ankle hurts.
AV kicks in and says "the reason for you to not drink has gone" - voice starts biting back. I lose muscle through not training, and it seizes this opportunity to make me drink.
THIS is the problem with not being religious in AA. For truly religious people, God is omnipotent, present, scient and benevolent. Bodybuilding isn't - it is transient, and will end - whether due to age or injury.
How can one who isn't religious find an infinitely strong higher power?
Jake, 19
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Devon, England
Posts: 212
Originally Posted by awuh1
[COLOR=#323232][FONT=Verdana]I hope alcohol does not do too much damage to you before then.
~sb
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: MD
Posts: 15,967
Have you worked the steps with someone who can guide you through them? My sponsor worked the steps alone the first time through them, but recently told me that it really wasn't done as the big book suggested, although there was a spiritual experience of sorts. The real spiritual experience took place when done with someone who knew how to guide another through.
I had my own spiritual experience on June 1, 2011. I was NOT the same person who went to sleep the night before. Everything had changed for the better and it keeps changing. It's an experience.
If you found something that works for you, continue working it. AA says it's not for everyone (it doesn't work for some people at all) and it says it's not the only way to stay stopped. And if you aren't guided by someone who truly knows and understands, it also may not work, although it may not have been true AA.
Keep working what you are doing. I don't know if it would work for you and you seem to have a grip on what you are doing, so I'd stick with that.
I wish you well,
I had my own spiritual experience on June 1, 2011. I was NOT the same person who went to sleep the night before. Everything had changed for the better and it keeps changing. It's an experience.
If you found something that works for you, continue working it. AA says it's not for everyone (it doesn't work for some people at all) and it says it's not the only way to stay stopped. And if you aren't guided by someone who truly knows and understands, it also may not work, although it may not have been true AA.
Keep working what you are doing. I don't know if it would work for you and you seem to have a grip on what you are doing, so I'd stick with that.
I wish you well,
Your attitude, not your aptitude, will determine your altitude
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Oxnard (The Nard), CA, USA.
Posts: 13,954
I hope you can find what you need with AA.
I wasted a lot time working with the 12 steps of AA as they are written. The spiritual religious nature of the 12 steps needed some serious editing for them to have any meaning for a secular me.
I wasted a lot time working with the 12 steps of AA as they are written. The spiritual religious nature of the 12 steps needed some serious editing for them to have any meaning for a secular me.
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Originally Posted by Zencat
I hope you can find what you need with AA.
I wasted a lot time working with the 12 steps of AA as they are written. The spiritual religious nature of the 12 steps needed some serious editing for them to have any meaning for a secular me.
I wasted a lot time working with the 12 steps of AA as they are written. The spiritual religious nature of the 12 steps needed some serious editing for them to have any meaning for a secular me.
Join Date: Aug 2011
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Originally Posted by MightyMung
Bodybuilding, when I engage fully, prevents me from drinking - I feel guilty if I drink.
I still want to drink, so I begin to resent the bodybuilding after a few months.
Then, something happens - I get an illness, or injure myself. Suddenly, bodybuilding isn't there anymore, I'm in bed ill, or can't get to the gym because my ankle hurts.
AV kicks in and says "the reason for you to not drink has gone" - voice starts biting back. I lose muscle through not training, and it seizes this opportunity to make me drink.
THIS is the problem with not being religious in AA. For truly religious people, God is omnipotent, present, scient and benevolent. Bodybuilding isn't - it is transient, and will end - whether due to age or injury.
I still want to drink, so I begin to resent the bodybuilding after a few months.
Then, something happens - I get an illness, or injure myself. Suddenly, bodybuilding isn't there anymore, I'm in bed ill, or can't get to the gym because my ankle hurts.
AV kicks in and says "the reason for you to not drink has gone" - voice starts biting back. I lose muscle through not training, and it seizes this opportunity to make me drink.
THIS is the problem with not being religious in AA. For truly religious people, God is omnipotent, present, scient and benevolent. Bodybuilding isn't - it is transient, and will end - whether due to age or injury.
How can one who isn't religious find an infinitely strong higher power?
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Join Date: May 2011
Location: Memphis, TN
Posts: 2,884
Originally Posted by Sapling
Sorry to hear that.
I am Buddist with some Taoism mixed in there and for me the 12 steps could be boiled down to 3.
1. Giving up the illusion of control. The only thing I have control over is how I choose to react to what is happening around and within me.
2. Letting go of the past. The past no longer exists and the only control over me that it has is what I choose to allow it to have. It also means that I recognize that everything that happened to me had to happen exactly the way it did for me to be where I am now.
3. Accepting reality as it is. This means living in the moment, accepting myself as I am and seeing life as it is, not as how I wish it was or wasn't. A big part of accepting reality as it is means accepting that it is going to change as well. Everything changes and everything is always changing including me.
This lead to a spiritual awakening for me, without the need for a higher power.
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Originally Posted by m1k3
Why do you say that?
I am Buddist with some Taoism mixed in there and for me the 12 steps could be boiled down to 3.
1. Giving up the illusion of control. The only thing I have control over is how I choose to react to what is happening around and within me.
2. Letting go of the past. The past no longer exists and the only control over me that it has is what I choose to allow it to have. It also means that I recognize that everything that happened to me had to happen exactly the way it did for me to be where I am now.
3. Accepting reality as it is. This means living in the moment, accepting myself as I am and seeing life as it is, not as how I wish it was or wasn't. A big part of accepting reality as it is means accepting that it is going to change as well. Everything changes and everything is always changing including me.
This lead to a spiritual awakening for me, without the need for a higher power.
I am Buddist with some Taoism mixed in there and for me the 12 steps could be boiled down to 3.
1. Giving up the illusion of control. The only thing I have control over is how I choose to react to what is happening around and within me.
2. Letting go of the past. The past no longer exists and the only control over me that it has is what I choose to allow it to have. It also means that I recognize that everything that happened to me had to happen exactly the way it did for me to be where I am now.
3. Accepting reality as it is. This means living in the moment, accepting myself as I am and seeing life as it is, not as how I wish it was or wasn't. A big part of accepting reality as it is means accepting that it is going to change as well. Everything changes and everything is always changing including me.
This lead to a spiritual awakening for me, without the need for a higher power.
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Join Date: May 2011
Location: Memphis, TN
Posts: 2,884
Originally Posted by Sapling
I really don't understand this. If that works for you....That's wonderful. Why do we have to hear how this program doesn't work for you? I work this program this person asked a question about. I have a Higher Power that I thank everyday for saving my life. I really don't get it.
I am having great difficulty understanding how these steps apply to true recovery from alcoholism. Obviously they can be applied - the high level of success and many satisfied testimonies are more than enough evidence. I can't quite get my head around them, however.
My main problem stems from step 1:
"Step One: We admitted we were powerless over alcohol, that our lives had become unmanageable."
Doesn't this defeat the object of self-help?
Many times i've seen people say things like "You can do this! Don't give up, just carry on, quit drinking forever" followed by "... work the AA steps, attend AA meetings etc etc".
Being fairly pragmatic, I like my theories to be applicable in a practical sense. I think that the first step is almost a self-defeating philosophy in the sense that it encourages a mindset of weakness, as opposed to the desirable and necessary strong mindset needed to overcome alcoholism long-term.
Obviously steps 2 and 3 raise questions in themselves - why must a higher power (as I understand 'it' to be) be responsible for me? Why can't I sort my own mess out?
4-10, when interpreted as instructions in cleansing ones own spirit are understandable - I believe them to be a symbolic representation of a process we all must go through, so I won't pick holes there.
11: similar to above but sounds like scapegoating, a skill alcoholics are notoriously good at. I believe my problems to be my responsibility and no-one elses. Yes, this places pressure on me, but it also encourages pro-activity rather than stagnation or pointing the finger of blame. Surely this is a more healthy approach?
12 sounds like an instruction to propagate the steps - perfectly reasonable if they have led to the spiritual awakening described.
So yeah, steps 1, 2, 3 and 11 are particularly hard for me to swallow. I could go into further detail if required, but i'd like to facilitate discussion of how others interpret these steps, and how they've worked for you.
I would love to buy into AA, but these (apparent) logical flaws have prevented me from doing so. I'd really appreciate a balanced discussion of the issues raised, hopefully with the conclusion being a little more understanding of the steps on my part!
Jake
My main problem stems from step 1:
"Step One: We admitted we were powerless over alcohol, that our lives had become unmanageable."
Doesn't this defeat the object of self-help?
Many times i've seen people say things like "You can do this! Don't give up, just carry on, quit drinking forever" followed by "... work the AA steps, attend AA meetings etc etc".
Being fairly pragmatic, I like my theories to be applicable in a practical sense. I think that the first step is almost a self-defeating philosophy in the sense that it encourages a mindset of weakness, as opposed to the desirable and necessary strong mindset needed to overcome alcoholism long-term.
Obviously steps 2 and 3 raise questions in themselves - why must a higher power (as I understand 'it' to be) be responsible for me? Why can't I sort my own mess out?
4-10, when interpreted as instructions in cleansing ones own spirit are understandable - I believe them to be a symbolic representation of a process we all must go through, so I won't pick holes there.
11: similar to above but sounds like scapegoating, a skill alcoholics are notoriously good at. I believe my problems to be my responsibility and no-one elses. Yes, this places pressure on me, but it also encourages pro-activity rather than stagnation or pointing the finger of blame. Surely this is a more healthy approach?
12 sounds like an instruction to propagate the steps - perfectly reasonable if they have led to the spiritual awakening described.
So yeah, steps 1, 2, 3 and 11 are particularly hard for me to swallow. I could go into further detail if required, but i'd like to facilitate discussion of how others interpret these steps, and how they've worked for you.
I would love to buy into AA, but these (apparent) logical flaws have prevented me from doing so. I'd really appreciate a balanced discussion of the issues raised, hopefully with the conclusion being a little more understanding of the steps on my part!
Jake
The second was to the OP and it showed a different was of looking at the 12 step program without buying into the concept of a higher power. It was also a way of explaining how being powerless is not a weakness but an acceptance of reality. If you search the web a little you can find there are lots of people who use AA yet don't buy into the 12 step program as presented. I believe it is quite possible for people to take advantage of the fellowship and wisdom of a program like AA without necessarily using the 12 steps as written.
From his post I got the impression that he was looking to see if there are any people who do something like what he is asking.
And the answer is Yes.
I am a big fan of AA but as they say, take what you want and leave the rest. I don't believe it is an all or nothing program. The ESH found in those rooms is a great tool for anyone looking to recover.
I was in no way trying to disparage AA and other 12 step programs. I was explaining how I used them from my nontraditional background and that he need not feel that he would not be welcome there.
Okay?
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I don't know mike...If you work a different program than the one outlined in the book...And you have remained sober without a Higher Power....Wouldn't it make more sense to start a thread and explain how you did it?...Rather than putting it in a thread titled "Difficulty understanding the AA "12 steps". Do you think you are making it any easier for him to understand them?...Seriously.
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Originally Posted by MightyMung
I am powerless over alcohol once I start to drink, due to the way it interacts with my pleasure sensors etc. The way to avoid this is to not take that first drink, i've accepted that and am doing fairly well so far with living a completely alcohol free life.
This is exactly the point of AA's program of recovery. The founders of AA concluded the same thing; that there is no way they can ever safely drink, and as long as they avoid the first drink, they don't start that unstoppable cycle of continuing to drink.
Originally Posted by AA BB 1st
We know that while the alcoholic keeps away from drink, as he may do for months or years, he reacts much like other men. We are equally positive that once he takes any alcohol whatever into his system, something happens, both in the bodily and mental sense, which makes it virtually impossible for him to stop. The experience of any alcoholic will abundantly confirm this.
These observations would be academic and pointless if our friend never took the first drink, thereby setting the terrible cycle in motion. Therefore, the main problem of the alcoholic centers in his mind, rather than in his body.
These observations would be academic and pointless if our friend never took the first drink, thereby setting the terrible cycle in motion. Therefore, the main problem of the alcoholic centers in his mind, rather than in his body.
So, for you, if you are able to stay away from the first drink, your problem is solved and there is no need for AA. If you find staying away from the first drink difficult for you, you may want to take another look at AA. Best to you either way.
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I think many of us are sharing here because we also had "Difficulty understanding the AA '12 steps'." Our experience led us away from 12-step programs.
Why would anyone start another thread to respond to this one? (That mightymung did not post in a specifically 12-step forum, indicates that he wants a range of responses anyway.)
While the 12-step program works for a great many people, there is recovery outside of it as well. For years, I thought 12-step programs were the only game in town. I thought I doomed because there was nothing else that could lead me out of active addiction.
I wished back then that there was someone around to give me hope.
I think the larger point is one that Sapling pointed out in response to one of my posts. 12-step programs may not have worked for me, but where my recovery led me sounded to her like AA. m1k3's Buddhist steps sound to me a lot like what 12-step literature points toward.
I think that it would be tragic if mightymung used responses here to rationalize evading recovery. But I also think it would be tragic if he believed that recovery and spiritual awakening were only available through 12-step programs.
Why would anyone start another thread to respond to this one? (That mightymung did not post in a specifically 12-step forum, indicates that he wants a range of responses anyway.)
While the 12-step program works for a great many people, there is recovery outside of it as well. For years, I thought 12-step programs were the only game in town. I thought I doomed because there was nothing else that could lead me out of active addiction.
I wished back then that there was someone around to give me hope.
I think the larger point is one that Sapling pointed out in response to one of my posts. 12-step programs may not have worked for me, but where my recovery led me sounded to her like AA. m1k3's Buddhist steps sound to me a lot like what 12-step literature points toward.
I think that it would be tragic if mightymung used responses here to rationalize evading recovery. But I also think it would be tragic if he believed that recovery and spiritual awakening were only available through 12-step programs.
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something to remember is just how simple the program of AA really is! no matter how much we complicate it with freudian theories and concepts or our own thinking, it doesnt get any simpler than it is written.
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Our experience led us away from 12-step programs.
Why would anyone start another thread to respond to this one?
While the 12-step program works for a great many people, there is recovery outside of it as well.
For years, I thought 12-step programs were the only game in town. I thought I doomed because there was nothing else that could lead me out of active addiction.
m1k3's Buddhist steps sound to me a lot like what 12-step literature points toward.
But I also think it would be tragic if he believed that recovery and spiritual awakening were only available through 12-step programs.
Your attitude, not your aptitude, will determine your altitude
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Originally Posted by Zebra1275
Here's How Step 1 works for me.
In a way, I'm not powerless over alcohol, I have free will and can make my own choices. I can walk done the beer aisle in the grocery store, be around others who are drinking, or be alone in a hotel room with a mini bar without breaking into a sweat.
But I am powerless over alcohol after I take that first drink. I know that my stop button is busted. I may not get drunk that first night, but I'll be on a 3 day bender within 2 weeks. That's how I understand Step 1 for me.
In a way, I'm not powerless over alcohol, I have free will and can make my own choices. I can walk done the beer aisle in the grocery store, be around others who are drinking, or be alone in a hotel room with a mini bar without breaking into a sweat.
But I am powerless over alcohol after I take that first drink. I know that my stop button is busted. I may not get drunk that first night, but I'll be on a 3 day bender within 2 weeks. That's how I understand Step 1 for me.
Originally Posted by MightyMung
Totally agree. I am powerless over alcohol once I start to drink, due to the way it interacts with my pleasure sensors etc. The way to avoid this is to not take that first drink, i've accepted that and am doing fairly well so far with living a completely alcohol free life. This means I do have power over alcohol, ultimate power I would say - I have the power to halt it's 'magic' forever, by not ever sipping a bottle.
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