Difficulty understanding the AA "12 steps".
Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,947
Originally Posted by MentalLoop 
The problem is, it's a hole, I'm in the middle of the ocean, and frankly it doesn't stop at 2 inches, it keeps on filling up till the boat sinks. In this sense, "I am powerless over the ocean
My old addiction
Is a flood upon the land
This tiny lifeboat
Can keep me dry
But my weight is all
That it can stand
So when I try to lean just a little
For just a splash to cool my face
Ahh that trickle
Turns out fickle
Fills my boat up
Five miles deep
Grateful to be free
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Arizona
Posts: 3,680
Don't know if this totally "fits" this thread, but I feel like it needs to be said.
I use 12 step programs to deal with my addictions.
I am able to "get with the program"...most of the time.
If someone had a real fundamental inability to get with the program then I suggest that they get with SOME program that does jive with their fundamental understanding of addiction, life, recovery or whatever.
I say this because I have read beau coup stories here and in other places of people who dipped a toe in AA, had issues so they went out and drank another decade or two until they could get with the program. Honestly, I think they should have tried getting with some other program or two or three or six rather than going out and drinking till they could accept AA.
AA works if you work it, but some people find they can't work it. Then please work something else. A better use of time and effort that picking apart AA and saying it won't work and drinking instead.
Alcoholics/addicts CAN recover. If we didn't believe that, most of us wouldn't be here. So please everyone, whatever program you use or don't use, please use your energy towards your own well being.
I do not feel this thread is to pick apart or run down AA, but I still want to encourage people to not let the fact that one program isn't their cup of tea, be used as a reason to go drink some more.
I use 12 step programs to deal with my addictions.
I am able to "get with the program"...most of the time.
If someone had a real fundamental inability to get with the program then I suggest that they get with SOME program that does jive with their fundamental understanding of addiction, life, recovery or whatever.
I say this because I have read beau coup stories here and in other places of people who dipped a toe in AA, had issues so they went out and drank another decade or two until they could get with the program. Honestly, I think they should have tried getting with some other program or two or three or six rather than going out and drinking till they could accept AA.
AA works if you work it, but some people find they can't work it. Then please work something else. A better use of time and effort that picking apart AA and saying it won't work and drinking instead.
Alcoholics/addicts CAN recover. If we didn't believe that, most of us wouldn't be here. So please everyone, whatever program you use or don't use, please use your energy towards your own well being.
I do not feel this thread is to pick apart or run down AA, but I still want to encourage people to not let the fact that one program isn't their cup of tea, be used as a reason to go drink some more.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Between Meetings
Posts: 8,997
If you're serious about this MightyMung. This a pretty good read on step one. Takes you through the Big Book which I'll include also.
A.A. Way of Life - Working Step 1"
The text of Alcoholics Anonymous
A.A. Way of Life - Working Step 1"
The text of Alcoholics Anonymous
Member
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Between Meetings
Posts: 8,997
Originally Posted by Saliena
Really quick I totally agree with DayTrader that this conversation should be held within the 12 step form.
Crazy Cat Lady
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 2,661
MightyMung, i recommend reading the 12 Steps and 12 Traditions book. It really explains the steps in a way that helped me understand. As to step 1, i know that i am powerless over alcohol. If i give into it it will take me over. What i do have power over is myself and my actions. When i chose to not drink, i deny alcohol the chance to overpower me again.
Sober Alcoholic
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 3,539
You are asking thoughtful questions. Your approach to problems is much like my own.
Initially I wanted to understand how the 12 steps worked. In understanding them, I thought, I could do a better job of going through them.
As difficult as it was for me to accept, I realized that this was not true. Sure, in a broad sense you need to know what you're doing, however, certain knowledge can only be acquired through experience. Certain experiences can only be acquired with an open mind.
A spiritual experience is one of the most extraordinary types of acquired knowledge imaginable. In fact its unimaginable without the experience. I can only say to you that life is not a series of random events, but rather an expression of a deeper order. A sense of this deeper order was made visible to me via spiritual experience. I hope you can do likewise
Initially I wanted to understand how the 12 steps worked. In understanding them, I thought, I could do a better job of going through them.
As difficult as it was for me to accept, I realized that this was not true. Sure, in a broad sense you need to know what you're doing, however, certain knowledge can only be acquired through experience. Certain experiences can only be acquired with an open mind.
A spiritual experience is one of the most extraordinary types of acquired knowledge imaginable. In fact its unimaginable without the experience. I can only say to you that life is not a series of random events, but rather an expression of a deeper order. A sense of this deeper order was made visible to me via spiritual experience. I hope you can do likewise
Member
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: virgin islands
Posts: 145
Ok, I'm only on day 9 so you can take what I have to say with a grain of salt.
I think you've gotten enough input on step 1 to understand that there are many ways to interperet it. If you can have a couple of drinks then stop and feel no craving whatsoever then you are probably not an alcoholic. But that's for you to decide and admit to yourself.
So are we, as for what passes as intelligent life on this planet, capable of self determination and self control without resorting to a higher power? Yes - probably. We can all white-knuckle through various periods of sobriety. I'm doing it now for probably the longest time I've gone without a drink in 20+ years. But do I feel better about myself, no. And If I continue to try and use pure willpower I'll likely eventually just cave and say, well I licked that, now I can go back to moderate drinking right? No - I'm an alcoholic!
So in my limited understanding of AA, steps 2 & 3, and the rest, is what will help get me from being sober, to finding some serenity. That's worth my efforts in getting over my issues surrounding 'higher power' and finding a way to work the program. Only time will tell if it's the right approach for me.
If it's not for you then find something that works and keeps you from picking up that first drink. Good luck.
I think you've gotten enough input on step 1 to understand that there are many ways to interperet it. If you can have a couple of drinks then stop and feel no craving whatsoever then you are probably not an alcoholic. But that's for you to decide and admit to yourself.
So are we, as for what passes as intelligent life on this planet, capable of self determination and self control without resorting to a higher power? Yes - probably. We can all white-knuckle through various periods of sobriety. I'm doing it now for probably the longest time I've gone without a drink in 20+ years. But do I feel better about myself, no. And If I continue to try and use pure willpower I'll likely eventually just cave and say, well I licked that, now I can go back to moderate drinking right? No - I'm an alcoholic!
So in my limited understanding of AA, steps 2 & 3, and the rest, is what will help get me from being sober, to finding some serenity. That's worth my efforts in getting over my issues surrounding 'higher power' and finding a way to work the program. Only time will tell if it's the right approach for me.
If it's not for you then find something that works and keeps you from picking up that first drink. Good luck.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Between Meetings
Posts: 8,997
Originally Posted by anotherquitter
ok, i'm only on day 9 so you can take what i have to say with a grain of salt.
I think you've gotten enough input on step 1 to understand that there are many ways to interperet it. If you can have a couple of drinks then stop and feel no craving whatsoever then you are probably not an alcoholic. But that's for you to decide and admit to yourself.
So are we, as for what passes as intelligent life on this planet, capable of self determination and self control without resorting to a higher power? Yes - probably. We can all white-knuckle through various periods of sobriety. I'm doing it now for probably the longest time i've gone without a drink in 20+ years. But do i feel better about myself, no. And if i continue to try and use pure willpower i'll likely eventually just cave and say, well i licked that, now i can go back to moderate drinking right? No - i'm an alcoholic!
So in my limited understanding of aa, steps 2 & 3, and the rest, is what will help get me from being sober, to finding some serenity. That's worth my efforts in getting over my issues surrounding 'higher power' and finding a way to work the program. Only time will tell if it's the right approach for me.
If it's not for you then find something that works and keeps you from picking up that first drink. Good luck.
I think you've gotten enough input on step 1 to understand that there are many ways to interperet it. If you can have a couple of drinks then stop and feel no craving whatsoever then you are probably not an alcoholic. But that's for you to decide and admit to yourself.
So are we, as for what passes as intelligent life on this planet, capable of self determination and self control without resorting to a higher power? Yes - probably. We can all white-knuckle through various periods of sobriety. I'm doing it now for probably the longest time i've gone without a drink in 20+ years. But do i feel better about myself, no. And if i continue to try and use pure willpower i'll likely eventually just cave and say, well i licked that, now i can go back to moderate drinking right? No - i'm an alcoholic!
So in my limited understanding of aa, steps 2 & 3, and the rest, is what will help get me from being sober, to finding some serenity. That's worth my efforts in getting over my issues surrounding 'higher power' and finding a way to work the program. Only time will tell if it's the right approach for me.
If it's not for you then find something that works and keeps you from picking up that first drink. Good luck.
Member
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 14,902
I would suggest that you don't over analyze the steps of AA.
I'm a very analytical person by nature, but by the time I was ready to accept AA, I would have done virtually anything that was suggested to help me stay sober. AA, whether it be the steps or the fellowship has helped me to do that.
Here's How Step 1 works for me.
In a way, I'm not powerless over alcohol, I have free will and can make my own choices. I can walk done the beer aisle in the grocery store, be around others who are drinking, or be alone in a hotel room with a mini bar without breaking into a sweat.
But I am powerless over alcohol after I take that first drink. I know that my stop button is busted. I may not get drunk that first night, but I'll be on a 3 day bender within 2 weeks. That's how I understand Step 1 for me.
I'm a very analytical person by nature, but by the time I was ready to accept AA, I would have done virtually anything that was suggested to help me stay sober. AA, whether it be the steps or the fellowship has helped me to do that.
Here's How Step 1 works for me.
In a way, I'm not powerless over alcohol, I have free will and can make my own choices. I can walk done the beer aisle in the grocery store, be around others who are drinking, or be alone in a hotel room with a mini bar without breaking into a sweat.
But I am powerless over alcohol after I take that first drink. I know that my stop button is busted. I may not get drunk that first night, but I'll be on a 3 day bender within 2 weeks. That's how I understand Step 1 for me.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Between Meetings
Posts: 8,997
I like the step 10 promises...
[PROMISES OF STEP TEN]
Big Book page #84
And we have ceased fighting anything or anyone -even alcohol.
For by this time sanity will have returned.
We will seldom be interested in liquor.
If tempted, we recoil from it as from a hot flame.
Big Book page #84-85
We react sanely and normally, and we will find that this has happened automatically.
Big Book page #85
We will see that our new attitude toward liquor has been given us without any thought or effort on our part. It just comes! That is the miracle of it.
We are not fighting it, neither are we avoiding temptation.
We have not even sworn off. Instead, the problem has been removed. It does not exist for us.
We are neither cocky nor are we afraid.
Quotes from BB first edition
[PROMISES OF STEP TEN]
Big Book page #84
And we have ceased fighting anything or anyone -even alcohol.
For by this time sanity will have returned.
We will seldom be interested in liquor.
If tempted, we recoil from it as from a hot flame.
Big Book page #84-85
We react sanely and normally, and we will find that this has happened automatically.
Big Book page #85
We will see that our new attitude toward liquor has been given us without any thought or effort on our part. It just comes! That is the miracle of it.
We are not fighting it, neither are we avoiding temptation.
We have not even sworn off. Instead, the problem has been removed. It does not exist for us.
We are neither cocky nor are we afraid.
Quotes from BB first edition
Jake, 19
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Devon, England
Posts: 212
Originally Posted by desertsong
As far as Steps 2 and 3, let me ask you this: have you been able to get sober on your own, without help? Do you have the power within you to stop and stay stopped? Many of us don't. I didn't. It was only through surrendering my alcoholism to a power greater than myself and asking for help that I finally managed to give up the booze and get sober.
So yes, I have asked for help - teachers, counselors, mental health professors, mother, friends, doctors.
I cannot fathom the idea of genuinely asking that which is not empirically provable to help (i.e spiritual force/being/etc). I've done the whole drunken praying routine, I've done the whole submitting myself to the universe, tried to accept that there is a 'plan' for me, but that still leaves room for me to justify drinking (i.e perhaps God's plan is for me to be a drunk).
I just cannot get my head around the idea that a spiritual force can restore me to sanity. I'm 'sane' now, not drunk, no plan or desire to drink, but that is a state which I have made for myself through decisions.
Not nitpicking, I just still can't understand it.
Jake, 19
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Devon, England
Posts: 212
Originally Posted by Zebra1275
I would suggest that you don't over analyze the steps of AA.
I'm a very analytical person by nature, but by the time I was ready to accept AA, I would have done virtually anything that was suggested to help me stay sober. AA, whether it be the steps or the fellowship has helped me to do that.
Here's How Step 1 works for me.
In a way, I'm not powerless over alcohol, I have free will and can make my own choices. I can walk done the beer aisle in the grocery store, be around others who are drinking, or be alone in a hotel room with a mini bar without breaking into a sweat.
But I am powerless over alcohol after I take that first drink. I know that my stop button is busted. I may not get drunk that first night, but I'll be on a 3 day bender within 2 weeks. That's how I understand Step 1 for me.
I'm a very analytical person by nature, but by the time I was ready to accept AA, I would have done virtually anything that was suggested to help me stay sober. AA, whether it be the steps or the fellowship has helped me to do that.
Here's How Step 1 works for me.
In a way, I'm not powerless over alcohol, I have free will and can make my own choices. I can walk done the beer aisle in the grocery store, be around others who are drinking, or be alone in a hotel room with a mini bar without breaking into a sweat.
But I am powerless over alcohol after I take that first drink. I know that my stop button is busted. I may not get drunk that first night, but I'll be on a 3 day bender within 2 weeks. That's how I understand Step 1 for me.
I just think this creates ambiguity, but it isn't a major issue.
Jake, 19
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Devon, England
Posts: 212
Originally Posted by anotherquitter
So are we, as for what passes as intelligent life on this planet, capable of self determination and self control without resorting to a higher power? Yes - probably. We can all white-knuckle through various periods of sobriety. I'm doing it now for probably the longest time I've gone without a drink in 20+ years. But do I feel better about myself, no. And If I continue to try and use pure willpower I'll likely eventually just cave and say, well I licked that, now I can go back to moderate drinking right? No - I'm an alcoholic!
So in my limited understanding of AA, steps 2 & 3, and the rest, is what will help get me from being sober, to finding some serenity. That's worth my efforts in getting over my issues surrounding 'higher power' and finding a way to work the program. Only time will tell if it's the right approach for me.
Choosing Life
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Montana
Posts: 1,435
Well, AA is a spiritual program, but that doesn't mean you have to rely on God as your higher power ... there are many agnostics and atheists in the program who have still gotten sober and have found their higher power elsewhere. Perhaps its in nature, in music, in their own spirit, or in their AA group itself. Whatever moves you, motivates you, comforts you, encourages you. For many it IS God, but that isn't a requirement.
For what it's worth, we have a young man in our AA group who believes he is an atheist, and he's had some issues with the same things you are, i.e. not being able to wrap his brain around the idea that something greater than himself can restore him to sanity. But one thing that really moves him - his true passion - is music. He's a musician and songwriter. He now has almost 4 months of sobriety and believes that it is his music that is helping restore him to sanity. Now that he's sober, he can focus better on his writing/playing, and feels he is more creative. The more he focuses on music, i.e. his higher power, the more motivated he is to continue with his sobriety.
Just some thoughts.
For what it's worth, we have a young man in our AA group who believes he is an atheist, and he's had some issues with the same things you are, i.e. not being able to wrap his brain around the idea that something greater than himself can restore him to sanity. But one thing that really moves him - his true passion - is music. He's a musician and songwriter. He now has almost 4 months of sobriety and believes that it is his music that is helping restore him to sanity. Now that he's sober, he can focus better on his writing/playing, and feels he is more creative. The more he focuses on music, i.e. his higher power, the more motivated he is to continue with his sobriety.
Just some thoughts.
Jake, 19
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Devon, England
Posts: 212
Originally Posted by awuh1
You are asking thoughtful questions. Your approach to problems is much like my own.
Initially I wanted to understand how the 12 steps worked. In understanding them, I thought, I could do a better job of going through them.
As difficult as it was for me to accept, I realized that this was not true. Sure, in a broad sense you need to know what you're doing, however, certain knowledge can only be acquired through experience. Certain experiences can only be acquired with an open mind.
A spiritual experience is one of the most extraordinary types of acquired knowledge imaginable. In fact its unimaginable without the experience. I can only say to you that life is not a series of random events, but rather an expression of a deeper order. A sense of this deeper order was made visible to me via spiritual experience. I hope you can do likewise
Initially I wanted to understand how the 12 steps worked. In understanding them, I thought, I could do a better job of going through them.
As difficult as it was for me to accept, I realized that this was not true. Sure, in a broad sense you need to know what you're doing, however, certain knowledge can only be acquired through experience. Certain experiences can only be acquired with an open mind.
A spiritual experience is one of the most extraordinary types of acquired knowledge imaginable. In fact its unimaginable without the experience. I can only say to you that life is not a series of random events, but rather an expression of a deeper order. A sense of this deeper order was made visible to me via spiritual experience. I hope you can do likewise
Jake, 19
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Devon, England
Posts: 212
Originally Posted by desertsong
Well, AA is a spiritual program, but that doesn't mean you have to rely on God as your higher power ... there are many agnostics and atheists in the program who have still gotten sober and have found their higher power elsewhere. Perhaps its in nature, in music, in their own spirit, or in their AA group itself. Whatever moves you, motivates you, comforts you, encourages you. For many it IS God, but that isn't a requirement.
For what it's worth, we have a young man in our AA group who believes he is an atheist, and he's had some issues with the same things you are, i.e. not being able to wrap his brain around the idea that something greater than himself can restore him to sanity. But one thing that really moves him - his true passion - is music. He's a musician and songwriter. He now has almost 4 months of sobriety and believes that it is his music that is helping restore him to sanity. Now that he's sober, he can focus better on his writing/playing, and feels he is more creative. The more he focuses on music, i.e. his higher power, the more motivated he is to continue with his sobriety.
Just some thoughts.
For what it's worth, we have a young man in our AA group who believes he is an atheist, and he's had some issues with the same things you are, i.e. not being able to wrap his brain around the idea that something greater than himself can restore him to sanity. But one thing that really moves him - his true passion - is music. He's a musician and songwriter. He now has almost 4 months of sobriety and believes that it is his music that is helping restore him to sanity. Now that he's sober, he can focus better on his writing/playing, and feels he is more creative. The more he focuses on music, i.e. his higher power, the more motivated he is to continue with his sobriety.
Just some thoughts.
Sorry for all the spam! I'm just trying to understand as i'd really love to join the AA community, since the only other 'fellowship' i've been a part of was a fellowship of drinkers, so I know how strong a fellowship can be!
Jake, 19
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Devon, England
Posts: 212
Originally Posted by desertsong
There you go! You can make the fellowship your higher power. (GOD = Group Of Drunks) 
What you said has been very helpful ^
So anything can be your 'God', as long as it provides you the strength to stop drinking, correct?
Taking my one hobby as an example - bodybuilding.
I bodybuild to improve myself (set aside any self-esteem issues here, take at face value).
Bodybuilding, when I engage fully, prevents me from drinking - I feel guilty if I drink.
I still want to drink, so I begin to resent the bodybuilding after a few months.
Then, something happens - I get an illness, or injure myself. Suddenly, bodybuilding isn't there anymore, I'm in bed ill, or can't get to the gym because my ankle hurts.
AV kicks in and says "the reason for you to not drink has gone" - voice starts biting back. I lose muscle through not training, and it seizes this opportunity to make me drink.
THIS is the problem with not being religious in AA. For truly religious people, God is omnipotent, present, scient and benevolent. Bodybuilding isn't - it is transient, and will end - whether due to age or injury.
How can one who isn't religious find an infinitely strong higher power?
Member
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Between Meetings
Posts: 8,997
I like how they describe it in the book...
Yet we had been seeing another kind of flight, a spiritual liberation from this world, people who rose above their problems. They said God made these things possible, and we only smiled. We had seen spiritual release, but liked to tell ourselves it wasn't true.
Actually we were fooling ourselves, for deep down in every man, woman, and child, is the fundamental idea of God. It may be obscured by calamity, by pomp, by worship of other things, but in some form or other it is there. For faith in a Power greater than ourselves, and miraculous demonstrations of that power in human lives, are facts as old as man himself.
We finally saw that faith in some kind of God was a part of our make-up, just as much as the feeling we have for a friend. Sometimes we had to search fearlessly, but He was there. He was as much a fact as we were. We found the Great Reality deep down within us. In the last analysis it is only there that He may be found. It was so with us.
BB first edition page 55
Yet we had been seeing another kind of flight, a spiritual liberation from this world, people who rose above their problems. They said God made these things possible, and we only smiled. We had seen spiritual release, but liked to tell ourselves it wasn't true.
Actually we were fooling ourselves, for deep down in every man, woman, and child, is the fundamental idea of God. It may be obscured by calamity, by pomp, by worship of other things, but in some form or other it is there. For faith in a Power greater than ourselves, and miraculous demonstrations of that power in human lives, are facts as old as man himself.
We finally saw that faith in some kind of God was a part of our make-up, just as much as the feeling we have for a friend. Sometimes we had to search fearlessly, but He was there. He was as much a fact as we were. We found the Great Reality deep down within us. In the last analysis it is only there that He may be found. It was so with us.
BB first edition page 55
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