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Why do coffee/cigarettes not affect P.A.W.S.?

Old 05-10-2011, 07:45 AM
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Why do coffee/cigarettes not affect P.A.W.S.?

Here is a quote I pulled from PAWS « Digital Dharma :

"PAWS symptoms reach a peak from three to six months after we get clean. Any use of drugs or alcohol, even in small quantities or for a short time, will effectively eliminate any improvement gained over that time, as it will keep the brain from healing."

Is there a reason why caffeine/nicotine are exempt from the "any use of drugs" rule? I mean, this article says even SMALL quantities eliminate ANY improvement. Where does that leave a pack a day smoker? What about two or three packs/day? Doesn't that mire them in an eternal state of PAWS, until they are able to give up nicotine too?

Wouldn't this "loophole" allow a heroin addict to have a couple beers every month? A crack addict to smoke a couple joints? An alcoholic do a line? Do you see what I'm getting at?

Sure, you could say that an addict seriously involved in recovery wouldn't and shouldn't use these mind-altering substances. I would absolutely agree. But, if we are strictly adhering to the "rules" of PAWS, isn't it necessary to remove caffeine and nicotine from our lives as well?
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Old 05-10-2011, 08:29 AM
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IMHO...yes, smoking is a mind altering drug. But OTOH, it is also a 'tool' if you will, to keep someone in a sense of calm. If you get right down to the nitty gritty, if you are serious about recovery all mind altering substitutes should be removed from your life.
There is a fine line with smoking and recovery symptoms. It is more 'accepted'.
A herion addict that snorts or a crack addict that drink is then croosing over into a cross addiction and that can be very dangerous because they are not healing from one thing -they are just replacing it.
An addiction like alcohol or drugs has a more induced affect on your body and PAWS will be more noticable than if you are 'just smoking'. Although nicotine and its other cigarette poisons are just as toxic, I don't think that its as severe as drugs or alcohol -there is more of a physical withdrawal in getting the latter out of your system. More serious, more dangerous. But like I say this is just my humbled opinion.
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Old 05-10-2011, 08:31 AM
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I'm not sure if there is a correlation. However, while I am still in varying states of discomfort I'm taking this opportunity to quit smoking as well. There is no benefit to smoking outside of satisfying the addiction.
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Old 05-10-2011, 08:32 AM
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...I have a sign above my desk at work: "Warning: I am quitting smoking"
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Old 05-10-2011, 09:19 AM
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Actually, a lot of modern articles on PAWS recommend that you don't overdo the caffeine in recovery, as it can make you more nervous and jittery, gives you a temporary spike but can leave you feeling flat later. I can't drink a lot of instant coffee, but enjoy a cup of tea. When I was taking Campral though, oddly enough, I couldn't seem to get any effect whatsoever from caffeine, it was as if it was blocked.

PAWS is quite a complicated thing. I read the book the article is referenced from btw, I think it was very instrumental in helping me get sober. After reading it, I felt I had a much better understanding of what I was going through and how to manage it. I can't say I followed everything in the book to a t but it had a lot of helpful advice.

People have pointed out however, it's possible to get kind of obsessed on the topic and begin putting everything down to PAWS... sometimes we also need to be able to look at the wider picture.
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Old 05-10-2011, 09:33 AM
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I think it's different for everyone. I still have my PAWS days, as I call them, I get unable to concentrate, have anxiety attacks and just generally feel uncomfortable. For me caffeine and smokes make it worse, the best thing I can do on those days is drink lots of water, get plenty of sleep, eat a balanced diet and just try to slow myself down and relax. The good news is they get less and less at time passes and they also get less severe. Remember most of us poisoned our bodies for quite sometime and it takes time to heal and feel good again.
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Old 05-10-2011, 09:47 AM
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Hi Bill-

I suffered from PAWS big time right about 5 months sober and it lasted for a while. I'm almost 18 months sober and I still feel the effects, but not as much and for not as long.

You've got an interested point and I'm curious as well.

Kjell~
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Old 05-10-2011, 09:59 AM
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I am the author of the PAWS article.

I agree 100% with the premise that, as they say in NA, a drug is a drug is a drug, and my personal opinion is that we are not fully in recovery until we have eliminated all addictive substances (and perhaps behaviors, when it comes to that). However, I would point out that even NA does not extend that to nicotine and caffeine. If they did, I imagine that the other 12-step groups would have a sudden jump in membership.

The attitude of the treatment centers I've worked in, and of most of the addiction professionals I know, is that it is far easier to "kick" drugs and alcohol with the calming effects of nicotine and caffeine. It is true that they also have their withdrawal syndromes, and also true that they prolong PAWS to a degree. We use other drugs to ameliorate withdrawal, both acute and post-acute, and the feeling is that caffeine and nicotine fall into the same category.

It is also true that, while they are two of the most addictive drugs, the next cigarette is not likely to be the one that kills you and caffeine is largely harmless (if we ignore sleep disturbances that may be avoided with reasonable restraint). Conversely, for people in recovery, the next drink or hit can easily be the one that leads to a fatality. Remember, too, that relapse occurs before the first drink or drug, which simply makes it "official."

So, even though I believe as stated in the second paragraph, I do not counsel my sponsees nor others to quit smoking and drinking coffee. I didn't quit smoking myself until I was three years sober, and I still use caffeine. However, I have been sober now for 21 years, and it doesn't seem to have been much of a hindrance.

There is also another issue, rather more subtle. One is constantly exposed to cigarette smoke at practically any gathering of recovering people, either outside the hall or -- in many cases -- inside, or both. That is rather like hanging out in a bar, and can easily lead to relapse. One relapse, one failure, can easily lead a newcomer to a feeling of futility about recovery in general.

Just my thoughts on the subject. I'll shut up now.
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Old 05-10-2011, 10:14 AM
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Originally Posted by michelle01 View Post

People have pointed out however, it's possible to get kind of obsessed on the topic and begin putting everything down to PAWS... sometimes we also need to be able to look at the wider picture.
Are there any particular topics you can point to where this is discussed? I get a bit obsessed myself at times and would like to read more thoughts from people who give PAWS a more critical look. I´m not doubting its legitmacy, but I also don´t want to constantly be walking around thinking it´s dictating my actions, and that I´m seriously jeopardizing my health if I drink a few cups of coffee.
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Old 05-10-2011, 10:24 AM
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Wow, thank you very much for the response crackerboy. I don´t think I could have asked for a better explanation.
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Old 05-10-2011, 10:49 AM
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Originally Posted by crackerboy View Post
I am the author of the PAWS article.

I agree 100% with the premise that, as they say in NA, a drug is a drug is a drug, and my personal opinion is that we are not fully in recovery until we have eliminated all addictive substances (and perhaps behaviors, when it comes to that). However, I would point out that even NA does not extend that to nicotine and caffeine. If they did, I imagine that the other 12-step groups would have a sudden jump in membership.

The attitude of the treatment centers I've worked in, and of most of the addiction professionals I know, is that it is far easier to "kick" drugs and alcohol with the calming effects of nicotine and caffeine. It is true that they also have their withdrawal syndromes, and also true that they prolong PAWS to a degree. We use other drugs to ameliorate withdrawal, both acute and post-acute, and the feeling is that caffeine and nicotine fall into the same category.

It is also true that, while they are two of the most addictive drugs, the next cigarette is not likely to be the one that kills you and caffeine is largely harmless (if we ignore sleep disturbances that may be avoided with reasonable restraint). Conversely, for people in recovery, the next drink or hit can easily be the one that leads to a fatality. Remember, too, that relapse occurs before the first drink or drug, which simply makes it "official."

So, even though I believe as stated in the second paragraph, I do not counsel my sponsees nor others to quit smoking and drinking coffee. I didn't quit smoking myself until I was three years sober, and I still use caffeine. However, I have been sober now for 21 years, and it doesn't seem to have been much of a hindrance.

There is also another issue, rather more subtle. One is constantly exposed to cigarette smoke at practically any gathering of recovering people, either outside the hall or -- in many cases -- inside, or both. That is rather like hanging out in a bar, and can easily lead to relapse. One relapse, one failure, can easily lead a newcomer to a feeling of futility about recovery in general.

Just my thoughts on the subject. I'll shut up now.

I always found it interesting how two stimulants that can cause agitation can be calming.... lol


In rehab , we weren't allowed caffeine at all due to people in detox having such risks of seizure. You weren't officially out of detox until your blood pressure came down to normal levels.

I think I went in with 160/90 the first day and by day 4 after coming off the ativan I was down to 123/80. But then I had no caffeine and only cigarettes during that time.
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Old 05-10-2011, 11:41 AM
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PAWS Follow-up

@ Bill:
I can't PM you because I don't have 5 posts, and most likely won't. You're wrong. The drug in question really scrambles your brain chemistry and because of the extremely long half-life can cause major discomfort in both acute and especially post-acute withdrawal. And it can cause cravings and trigger relapse. Don't believe everything you read on the "pro" sites. I would ask my friend if he really wants to get clean, or if he's just playing around.

@ The gentleman who related his detox story. As it happens, I work for one of the biggest detox chain in the country, and they don't allow caffeinated drinks in detox either. But we were talking recovery. People in detox are nowhere near recovery, and not that close to PAWS, either. Entirely different issue.

I have no interest in debates or argument, folks. I provide information based on many years in recovery and in the treatment field. Take it as you will. I gave up debating my sophomore year in college -- 47 years ago.
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Old 05-10-2011, 11:52 AM
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I hope my post wasn't construed as a debate or argument (Although I love good nature-mature debates as I always walk away learning something and having a different perspective than when I first started), that was a legitimate thought that I've actually had since my first substance abuse class 15 years ago when they said that cigarettes were a stimulant.

I think your posting was very good information.

In treatment we weren't allowed to gamble either ( behavioral addictive things ) like you said. They did allow smoking though as they felt like trying to cut out too much too fast would be overwhelming for most patients.



For me currently in recovery I am avoiding all kinds of depressants, even natural. I still have some Ativan my doc gave me 3 months ago to self detox. It was a 20 day supply and I really only used it to help sleep 2-3 nights a week when I was in withdrawal.

I do still smoke and drink coffee. both have increased a good bit since quitting drinking.
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