Any Thoughts/Experience on/with Rational Recovery?

Old 04-10-2014, 08:51 AM
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Any Thoughts/Experience on/with Rational Recovery?

Just wondering. Some aspects of it really match my views, although some of them might be considered extreme, totally opposite to AA and Al-Anon.

So, a few weeks ago, I set an ultimatum: no more drinking or no more marriage. When I did this, I knew nothing about Rational Recovery. Then last night, I find this:

Imagine yourself telling him this:

I’ve decided I won’t tolerate your drinking/using any longer. From this moment, if you drink even one more drop of alcohol, or have one more fix of drugs, I will (PLAN B). You must now choose between your addiction and family membership. You don’t have to answer me immediately, but I do have to know by tomorrow at noon.

Plan B is an action you will definitely take once you know that she is continuing to drink/use. It can be divorce, separation, child custody, separate rooms, financial severance, or anything you believe is appropriate. However, the strongest Plan B is the best one, because there is no chance that she will quit because she loves you or cares about you. It is only herself that she cares about, and only fear will inspire her to summarily quit her addiction.
When I set the ultimatum, I was honestly (and still am) fed up. I do not want that crap in my home anymore, around me. With or without him. I do have that power, to decide what will be a part of my life and what won't. And it is true: While addicted, it is only themselves they care about. And they expect everyone else sacrifice and do the same, to accommodate their little needs. And when you finally refuse, you can see that little demon of addiction trying to stay inside of your spouse, to persuade you, to blackmail you emotionally. Why does it remind me of an exorcism? But after 8 years, I have nothing to lose anymore.

The only thing I do not get about this is how do they expect me to tell him about the approach, show him the website, make him read? Of course I cannot control that.
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Old 04-12-2014, 10:34 AM
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The Beast of his was wild today. It tried to negotiate first. Then it showed itself. This insensitive, selfish, mean, you name it. . . Everything negative in a person. But the Beast is scared. The Beast knows deep down I am right. The Beast knows I have the right to leave. The Beast knows he cannot have us both.

Weekends have always scared me. Then I found out about detachment. Now I can listen without being overwhelmed by emotions. I have chased my own Beast back to the jungle. My rational voice came back telling me what is right and what is wrong. Wasting my life is wrong.

When I read about this approach, I cannot not to think about id, ego, and superego. Id is the animal side of every personality. When it comes to addicts, according to this approach, id is in charge. But supposedly, there is hope for superego to reemerge. And the driving force is fear, not love.
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Old 04-13-2014, 10:22 PM
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Originally Posted by healthyagain View Post
.....And the driving force is fear, not love
And the courage to change!

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Old 04-15-2014, 02:50 PM
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Lots of it!
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Old 04-15-2014, 03:00 PM
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You might want to pm Freshstart57, he is the go to person on SR when it comes to rational recovery. He post a lot on "alcoholism secular connection"
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Old 04-17-2014, 11:26 AM
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Thanks for bringing this topic up. AH did a lot reading about RR, and I do agree with the concept of a beast. I see it in AH all the time, even his voice changes. It's kind of creepy, and I really don't like his beast at all.

Just finished reading the F&F on the RR site. I think the ultimatum approach may be coming soon. Just as soon as I get my ducks in a row.

Thanks!
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Old 05-03-2014, 04:10 PM
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It worked on me. At my poor wife's request, my parents arrived at my door one Monday morning after a 90 minute drive. I had never seen this look on their faces before in my life (I was 53). I invited them in, and made some coffee.

My dad did most of the talking. He said that my wife had called them the night before in tears, at the end of her rope. So my pa laid it out for me. He explained that I was about to lose my home and marriage, the respect of my adult children, and my job after that. Things would go downhill from there (he is such a kidder, my pa).

He said I needed to choose, and I needed to choose now. If I chose to get sober, I could stay with them, I could go to CAMH, I could go to rehab, I could go to AA, anything, and they would support me. But I needed to choose between drinking again, and the life I had with my family and my home and my job. And if I chose to get sober, I needed to understand that it had to stick, 'You are only going to get one shot at this'.

I chose to get sober. I understood immediately that this was completely and wholly up to me, and this was only going to be as difficult as I chose to make it. I decided to make it as easy as possible for myself, and decided to never again touch a drop. I remembered breaking up with an abusive GF, and I cut it off with her - I could see the similarities with my relationship with alcohol, and I knew that I had quit for good. Drinking was simply no longer 'me'. And I sat down then and there and cried with relief, that the lies and misery and shame and anxiety and depression and shame and guilt and shame (did I mention the shame) were over. I was done with them, and I was going to give myself a fresh start.

I read everything I could find, I got and read a big book and went to some meetings, read about SMART and Lifering, and then I found SR. I told my story, and a member here let me in on the point of view that what I was doing (and what had been done to me) was something called AVRT.

Please pm me if I can help in any way. Best to you.
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Old 07-11-2014, 08:19 PM
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Originally Posted by freshstart57 View Post
It worked on me. At my poor wife's request, my parents arrived at my door one Monday morning after a 90 minute drive. I had never seen this look on their faces before in my life (I was 53). I invited them in, and made some coffee.

My dad did most of the talking. He said that my wife had called them the night before in tears, at the end of her rope. So my pa laid it out for me. He explained that I was about to lose my home and marriage, the respect of my adult children, and my job after that. Things would go downhill from there (he is such a kidder, my pa).

He said I needed to choose, and I needed to choose now. If I chose to get sober, I could stay with them, I could go to CAMH, I could go to rehab, I could go to AA, anything, and they would support me. But I needed to choose between drinking again, and the life I had with my family and my home and my job. And if I chose to get sober, I needed to understand that it had to stick, 'You are only going to get one shot at this'.

I chose to get sober. I understood immediately that this was completely and wholly up to me, and this was only going to be as difficult as I chose to make it. I decided to make it as easy as possible for myself, and decided to never again touch a drop. I remembered breaking up with an abusive GF, and I cut it off with her - I could see the similarities with my relationship with alcohol, and I knew that I had quit for good. Drinking was simply no longer 'me'. And I sat down then and there and cried with relief, that the lies and misery and shame and anxiety and depression and shame and guilt and shame (did I mention the shame) were over. I was done with them, and I was going to give myself a fresh start.

I read everything I could find, I got and read a big book and went to some meetings, read about SMART and Lifering, and then I found SR. I told my story, and a member here let me in on the point of view that what I was doing (and what had been done to me) was something called AVRT.

Please pm me if I can help in any way. Best to you.
Yup. Me, too. I chose to get sober, and I never drank again. Never will, either. I just know I wont, because i never allow the conversation in my head to start.

Great program.
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Old 08-04-2014, 07:34 PM
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Ditto. Hubbie took a hard line approach. I could choose A or B. Hurt like no tomorrow but since there was a child in the middle if the situations were reversed I'd likely be giving him the same ultimatum. I've started attending SMART meetings. Harsh as it may sound I've seen other addicts both in outpatient therapy and meetings where their S/O's let them off the hook again and again and they also keep relapsing. For me I don't regard relapse as an option. I believe I'd be tossed out and frankly I"m not inclined to test it. Not worth it to me.
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Old 08-07-2014, 08:48 AM
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I switch a lot between the forums, and I do see a lot of things that make sense in Al-Anon and the 12-Step approach, BUT the only time when my husband did stop drinking (even for a brief period of time) was when he FEARED. It was not me pleading or trying to prove my love, but it was when I had a really "strong reaction" (to put it that way) that freaked him out and when he did not dare to **** me off for days. It also happened when he had a health scare episode, and he is really afraid of doctors, needles, medical exams. So, it is always fear.

The problem is, sooner or later, I start feeling sorry for him and soften, so my ultimatum becomes an empty threat.

I'll have to quit enabling, make myself act, and not just babble.
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Old 08-08-2014, 04:01 PM
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Originally Posted by freshstart57 View Post
I told my story, and a member here let me in on the point of view that what I was doing (and what had been done to me) was something called AVRT.
Agreed wholeheartedly. I think I've been choosing the same path you have in my own roundabout way. First hubbie laid down the line very forcefully, choose A or B and if I chose booze then what I had to lose was crystal clear. I tend to take the approach of whatever works for you but... I have attended several SMART meetings and I've attended AA meetings. I also read these forums every day, mostly the Friends and Family section frankly and am reminded daily of the destruction wrought on families (some serious aversion therapy for me). I've listened to people tell their stories in meetings which include many many relapses. Listening to a room full of people the other night in a SMART meeting and listing positives and negatives of drinking I hear precious few say that relapse was not an option, they would lose their families.

AVRT of course is a risk of course for families because the addict may choose addiction. You see that scenario playing out every day on these forums. It is sad but in my opinion better to know sooner rather than later where the addicts priorities lie so the family can go on and make the best choices for themselves. The whole concept of intermittent reinforcement, making threats and not following through with them seems to have its pitfalls in the long run. Sounds harsh but coming from the other side of the fence I think the AVRT approach certainly has a lot of merits from a very practical sense.

Good luck in your journey. I myself will have to take a looksy at the AVRT website.
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Old 10-15-2014, 08:59 AM
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Originally Posted by freshstart57 View Post
It worked on me. At my poor wife's request, my parents arrived at my door one Monday morning after a 90 minute drive. I had never seen this look on their faces before in my life (I was 53). I invited them in, and made some coffee.

My dad did most of the talking. He said that my wife had called them the night before in tears, at the end of her rope. So my pa laid it out for me. He explained that I was about to lose my home and marriage, the respect of my adult children, and my job after that. Things would go downhill from there (he is such a kidder, my pa).

He said I needed to choose, and I needed to choose now. If I chose to get sober, I could stay with them, I could go to CAMH, I could go to rehab, I could go to AA, anything, and they would support me. But I needed to choose between drinking again, and the life I had with my family and my home and my job. And if I chose to get sober, I needed to understand that it had to stick, 'You are only going to get one shot at this'.

I chose to get sober. I understood immediately that this was completely and wholly up to me, and this was only going to be as difficult as I chose to make it. I decided to make it as easy as possible for myself, and decided to never again touch a drop. I remembered breaking up with an abusive GF, and I cut it off with her - I could see the similarities with my relationship with alcohol, and I knew that I had quit for good. Drinking was simply no longer 'me'. And I sat down then and there and cried with relief, that the lies and misery and shame and anxiety and depression and shame and guilt and shame (did I mention the shame) were over. I was done with them, and I was going to give myself a fresh start.

I read everything I could find, I got and read a big book and went to some meetings, read about SMART and Lifering, and then I found SR. I told my story, and a member here let me in on the point of view that what I was doing (and what had been done to me) was something called AVRT.

Please pm me if I can help in any way. Best to you.
Thank you so much for your comments, though it is very bittersweet for me to read this now.

Six weeks ago, I broke up with my ABF of two years. I adored him, and he me, but the drinking (and occasional drug use) was wearing me down. A few weeks earlier, he'd suddenly decided to do a 30-day sobriety (his idea) and seemed to have very little problem getting through it. I was with him most of the time and never saw any indication that he was going through any sort of withdrawals. Then 30 days was over and...back to the old life. I decided I HAD to summon the courage to leave him. And did. I have never cried so much in my life.

What kills me now is reading the above posts about how some of you gave/accepted ultimatums and it worked! I'd heard so often that they were ineffective and decided that it would give our breakup a tiny bit more dignity if I didn't do that to him. Instead, I feel that I crushed him, snuffing out any possibility of reconciliation. When I pulled away in my car, he asked: "Can I call you tomorrow?" and, having been coached by some well-meaning strict friends, I just nodded my head no. I don't think I'll ever forget the forlorn look on his face. UGH.

I'm posting here because he is an atheist who only went to AA when court required it. He could never get over the Higher Power issue. I wish I'd known about the AA alternatives earlier. I would love to send him info on SMART and AVRT but I know....it has to come from him. Thoughts?
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Old 10-15-2014, 09:56 AM
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Did you really snuff out any possibility of reconcilliation? Why? And why would you listen to "well-meaning friends" and not to your own heart? There are no rules in this, only opinions.

If you feel remorse, and like you want to give things another chance, then why don't you just go back and apologize to him, tell him that you accept him for who he is, warts and all, and that you've been thinking that you want to give things another chance?

I'd leave out the rational recovery and the urging him to quit drinking for a while though. If he's open to seeing you again, then maybe try to make the relationship work on his terms for a while, as quitting drinking doesn't seem like much of a priority for him. Maybe later you'll be able to press it a bit more.
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Old 10-15-2014, 12:34 PM
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Im sorry for how badly your hurting. When you broke up with him do you feel like it was done spontaneously as a reaction, or did you think it through and feel confident it was the right choice? Sometimes we love someone but realize in out hearts and minds they aren’t right for us, and these breakups are the worst. I think you just have to give it serious thought, and then if you feel there is more to discuss with him see if he’s open to it. He voluntarily stopped himself for a month, did he talk about why he started again?

I dont see anything wrong with sharing information about recovery options, but I can see where during a breakup it might not be received in the most positive way unless your careful on how its presented.

I dont think a lot of people understand there are many free sources of support out there, and maybe worse I dont think people understand how they work. Like with Smart its based on behavioral approaches, so you can have (or have not) any HP you want and fit it into your program as you see fit.

The control for his drinking is still in his hands, nothing comes to any of us without some type of effort or work on our part.
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Old 10-16-2014, 09:21 AM
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Wow. Have to say I'm a bit in shock to read the last two replies because up until now, 100% of input since my breakup has been: "GOOD for YOU! You did the right thing! You are courageous and brave!" "Move forward and don't look back...!" etc etc etc And all of that, while encouraging, made me feel sad, too. He's a very good person, very tender hearted, and 95% of the time takes responsibility for his actions.

Re Needabreak's question, "And why would you listen to "well-meaning friends" and not to your own heart?" yeah....that's exactly what my BF asked (and probably the reason he won't take me back if I do try). I don't know. This was my first serious love relationship with an alcoholic, and I have spent the better part of my life believing the conventional wisdom that one can't possibly have a healthy relationship with someone addicted to alcohol, so....after two years of questioning it, I guess I finally gave in to that. Of course I knew he was an alcoholic from the start--he said it himself--so it's my own damn fault for not being able to resist him.

I should mention that the breaking point for me was that he also does hard drugs occasionally (every 2-3 months) and when he does, he disappears and I go into anxiety attack mode, I have chest pains, etc. This happened 2 days before I broke up with him. He always feels ashamed afterwards but doesn't make excuses, but this time I just thought: "Enough. I can't do this anymore." The stress was starting to really wear on my own health. He's been a heavy drinker for 35 years; that's his main drug by far. I don't drink other than a half glass of wine every once in awhile.

When we first met, he mentioned that he "doesn't do ultimatums" and though he had somewhat tempered that along the way, I knew that change had to be up to him and I didn't want to get pulled any further into the vortex of codependency. I wrestled over and over whether to try to tell him he would have to change for me to stay, but I guess I knew in my heart he would choose alcohol so perhaps I just decided why not save us both the pain of that decision and leave him/us with whatever shred of dignity I could. But it haunts me so much.

Wow, I am really hurting right now. Thanks for the input. And I am sorry for hijacking this thread! (Should I start a new one?)
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Old 10-16-2014, 09:34 AM
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Well, me, I left my ex because he used and wasn't willing to stop. But that's me. My own personal boundary is that I won't have active drug use in my life and I frankly don't care what anyone thinks about my boundary.

In your case, it sounds like you are ok with active alcohol / drug use in your life, yes? And if you are, then why would you pay attention to friends and online strangers who have an issue with drugs / alcohol?

But if you aren't ok with active alcohol / drug use in your life, you would be doing your ex bf a disservice by telling him that you want to rekindle things while having a hidden agenda. You would also be setting yourself up for continued heartache.

Sounds like you're looking for someone outside of you to tell you what to do / give you rules. These things should come from within.
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Old 10-16-2014, 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Needabreak View Post
In your case, it sounds like you are ok with active alcohol / drug use in your life, yes?

But if you aren't ok with active alcohol / drug use in your life, you would be doing your ex bf a disservice by telling him that you want to rekindle things while having a hidden agenda. You would also be setting yourself up for continued heartache.

Sounds like you're looking for someone outside of you to tell you what to do / give you rules. These things should come from within.

I'm not okay with it. Thanks for asking that. He's admitted several times that he knows addiction has played serious havoc with his life and relationships. He knows, but...aside from occasional 30-day sobriety runs to prove to himself he can...he keeps choosing to keep at it.

I don't know why (other than the easily label of coda) that I look for outside opinion so much. I just feel a very strong pull to go back to him and attempt a more grown up discussion on whether to end the relationship, but perhaps that is just a fool's idea. I did call him 10 days after the break and he sounded like a wounded animal; the call went nowhere. Now it's coming on 6 weeks. I'm wondering if we can reach a point (soon) where we can talk about it without making it worse.
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Old 10-16-2014, 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by BlueChair View Post
Im sorry for how badly your hurting. When you broke up with him do you feel like it was done spontaneously as a reaction, or did you think it through and feel confident it was the right choice? Sometimes we love someone but realize in out hearts and minds they aren’t right for us, and these breakups are the worst. I think you just have to give it serious thought, and then if you feel there is more to discuss with him see if he’s open to it. He voluntarily stopped himself for a month, did he talk about why he started again?
It was spontaneous but after lots of doubt had built up in my mind over many months. I just couldn't give him up. I hate how that sounds but there it is. He has so many wonderful qualities, a great heart, etc. etc.

He had told friends that he was giving up alcohol/drugs for 30 days to prove to himself and me that he could do it and hinted that it was part of his longer plan toward sobriety (or, I think more like limited drinking, which I doubt is possible). He never said why he started again, though I (gently) reminded him that he had said he might do another 30 days soon after, and he basically didn't respond.

Really, bottom line for me: I want to be kind to this man. He loved me so deeply and I feel I ripped his heart out. I know addiction is at the root of it and I shouldn't apologize for wanting a life free of that craziness. But still, he was good to me in so many ways and I wish we could at least be friends (he's still close friends with his ex ex).
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Old 10-17-2014, 12:04 AM
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Originally Posted by HealthyLiving View Post
Wow. Have to say I'm a bit in shock to read the last two replies because up until now, 100% of input since my breakup has been: "GOOD for YOU! You did the right thing! You are courageous and brave!" "Move forward and don't look back...!" etc etc etc And all of that, while encouraging, made me feel sad, too. He's a very good person, very tender hearted, and 95% of the time takes responsibility for his actions.

I should mention that the breaking point for me was that he also does hard drugs occasionally (every 2-3 months) and when he does, he disappears and I go into anxiety attack mode, I have chest pains, etc. This happened 2 days before I broke up with him. He always feels ashamed afterwards but doesn't make excuses, but this time I just thought: "Enough. I can't do this anymore." The stress was starting to really wear on my own health. He's been a heavy drinker for 35 years; that's his main drug by far. I don't drink other than a half glass of wine every once in awhile.

When we first met, he mentioned that he "doesn't do ultimatums" and though he had somewhat tempered that along the way, I knew that change had to be up to him and I didn't want to get pulled any further into the vortex of codependency. I wrestled over and over whether to try to tell him he would have to change for me to stay, but I guess I knew in my heart he would choose alcohol so perhaps I just decided why not save us both the pain of that decision and leave him/us with whatever shred of dignity I could. But it haunts me so much.

Wow, I am really hurting right now. Thanks for the input. And I am sorry for hijacking this thread! (Should I start a new one?)
HealthyLiving,

You are welcome to start a new thread or post on this one.. its all up to you.

I think the comments you received are good .. its a personal decision you have to make.. after reading more of your posts it sounds like you had well thought out and valid reasons for breaking up with him. It doesn't mean he is a bad person.. but instead there are just things going on you cant live with. If your having second doubts.. maybe try making a pro/con list and be very honest with yourself.
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Old 10-17-2014, 08:04 AM
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Originally Posted by allforcnm View Post
HealthyLiving,

You are welcome to start a new thread or post on this one.. its all up to you.

I think the comments you received are good .. its a personal decision you have to make.. after reading more of your posts it sounds like you had well thought out and valid reasons for breaking up with him. It doesn't mean he is a bad person.. but instead there are just things going on you cant live with. If your having second doubts.. maybe try making a pro/con list and be very honest with yourself.
Thank you. I have made only "con" lists so far because the "pros" of the relationship are always heavy on my mind and writing them down only makes me want to drop everything and run to him.

After reading several books on love addiction/codependency and listening to my therapist along with several friends who have gone through various 12 Step programs, I feel like I've been "trained" to let him go. But my gut/heart says otherwise. It's hard to know which voice I should follow.

I do find it interesting that I am spending about an hour a day reading the posts here (especially about Secular Recovery, which I never knew existed and would have suited him a ton better than AA). As far as I know, he has not taken any steps toward sobriety since I split, and here I am reading about programs for the first time. Hello codependency and "rescuing" and all the other labels that I thought didn't apply to me? Or can it just be love and caring? Where is the dividing line when you love someone?
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