Opportunity

[aloneagainor]

"We must be willing to get rid of the life we’ve planned, so as to have the life that is waiting for us." Joseph Campbell

(((SR friend Temlin3 just sent this quote to me this morning. I swear there's some bizarre interconnectedness streaming through the hearts, souls, and minds of the people here.)))

The NA step-work group I've been attending for nearly a month is just finishing up Step 12. They've been working through the workbook for the past half-year, next week they will begin again on Step one, page one.

I can see a solid opportunity here to begin with a solid committment to work this program from the beginning, commit to it in full, "work the steps, attend meetings, and"...there I get stuck, on "get a sponsor." I can see the benefit in having a sponsor. I can't see how I could incorporate that into my program, much less my life. I've never been one to reach out to ask for help, learned at an early age to not go that way, or I'd be TOLD what to do, how to think, believe, behave, interact, etc. I rejected it in full, am fiercely independent, resist those who claim authority/ control over me, and cannot maintain any relationship with anyone as a result, unless they are my equal (estranged from family and spouse, I work as an independent contractor, own my own business with no employees... NO controlling authority!). I trust almost no-one with information, nor to "be there" for me. I do have a few close friends with whom I write, and can see solid potential for interpersonal connections through NA, as well as here at SR. I don't have a phone and wouldn't call anyone even if I did, though am completely open to writing and open discussion therein.

My question is, how necessary is it to have a sponsor? Is it possible to work the steps, attend meetings, and in exchange for the sole directive of an individual sponsor, substitute a broad base of people whom I do trust but would not rely on exclusively to direct me? I realize in fullthat I cannot trust my own best thinking to guide me, yet there is no way I can trust the opinion of any one or even a few people in full to guide/ direct me either. I've been mislead/ deceived/ given bad advice/ abandoned too many times to trust anyone that way. Yet, I NEED to commit to this NA program this time through, enough of this playing around on the edge, I slip too easily, the temptation is always too close, the obsession still so strong. Yet, push myself too hard to do what is so unnatural to me (regarding trust and reliance and accepting strict directive) and I know how quick I am to abandon, retreat back into isolation/ avoidance, and all.

Knowing all this...what to do? I appreciate any and all perspective on this, please.

[Chance]

Originally Posted by aloneagainor

My question is, how necessary is it to have a sponsor? Is it possible to work the steps, attend meetings, and in exchange for the sole directive of an individual sponsor, substitute a broad base of people

Knowing all this...what to do? I appreciate any and all perspective on this, please.

Good questions, I think that most of them you really already know or you probably wouldn't be thinking about it so much. Sponsorship is to guide you through the twelve steps. It is important to get one sponsor, even two. Sometimes when we get more than ONE sponsor, we tend to ask questions to all of the sponsors or groups of people and then when we like what we hear we say OH THAT IS RIGHT.

Personally, I think that unless you do have a sponsor that you will not make it in the Program. The Program teaches us, the NA Basic Text is our road map to another beautiful way of life. How could we possible take what we want out of there and leave the rest. It isn't our choice to do that, if we are willing to go to any lengths, then we are ready to fully commit to the NA Way of Life and that is what this is. It isn't OUR way of life NO MORE! We have to live the NA Way less we relapse and it says also in our literature that NO ONE HAS RELAPSED WHO HAS LIVED THE NA WAY OF LIFE. So with all of that said. How important is a sponsor?

This doesn't mean that we can not confide in other people. I was always told that if you don't have at least one person in your life that you share all of your life with that you are hiding something. Secrets keep us sick, and then they have a tendency to manipulate to get what we want. I don't know about anyone else, but unless I am willing to do what everyone else has done, then I have not completely surrendered to the NA WAY OF LIFE. JMHO>>>>

Love Vic

PS Could you email me I lost your email address

[aloneagainor]

Thank you Vic. I can see the value and relevance of having a sponsor, and some part of me I think might even want to be able to go that way, but a far BIGGER force overrides such considerations and squelches that notion like one would swat slow-moving mosquitoes. Too easily eliminated.

Because I'm so new to NA and have met so few people I've not met anyone I'd even remotely consider to ask to be a sponsor. I can barely muster any spoken words to anyone on the subject of drugs/ addiction at this point. Perhaps the thing to do is just keep my mind open and be watchful for the right individual to come along, have faith that this could happen, and be willing to ask for help when I do see an opportunity to connect? Considering where I'm at now, that could take a very long while...

[Cindi R]

I, also felt much the same way as you...I looked around the rooms for a long time searching for that one special person who "had what I wanted"...
I finally asked her...I found that although she gave me a few tools and a couple of suggestions that most of the time we ended up talking about her issues instead of working the steps. She also borrowed money which was never repaid.
So I asked a second woman to be my other sponsor, and I do know that I could call either one of these ladies with multiple years if I had a program question.
Now, I never really "fired" my sponsors...
but I don't call them on a daily, weekly or even a monthly basis and to tell you the truth I can't say when the last time was that I saw either one of them.
However, most of the time I chose to use God as my sponsor...
I have difficulty in putting that much faith in a mere mortal.
I did however use the whole group, and took bits and pieces from everyone and atttended many, many meetings in the beginning.
So far, my program's been working for me...one day at a time for a few 24 hours now.
August 15th will be 5 years of sobriety from drugs and alcohol.

[aloneagainor]

Before continuing I must make a correction, this has been bugging me since I wrote it. There IS a phone here, but calls go directly to the machine, few people call, I don't like the phone as a conversation medium. It's a business item mostly. E-mail correspondence MUCH preferred.

Thank you Cindi. Your program sounds functional for you, as I'm thinking something similar will be for me. I'm not looking for anyone this way really yet, mostly still working on connecting with a group on a regular basis. Definitely thinking about how to proceed in the most effective way, that can actually work. Even the thought of relying on someONE or even two to direct me that way, I just can't let enough GO to do that, I don't think. Actually I do think thinking-brain is my friend. Just that addict-thinking-brain interferes too often.

Originally Posted by Cindi R

However, most of the time I chose to use God as my sponsor...I have difficulty in putting that much faith in a mere mortal.
I did however use the whole group, and took bits and pieces from everyone and atttended many, many meetings in the beginning.
So far, my program's been working for me...one day at a time for a few 24 hours now. August 15th will be 5 years of sobriety from drugs and alcohol.

I look at the broad, diverse base of people I can call on to answer questions, and trust to provide me with a diverse range of suggestions/ perceptions/ perspectives to consider. Consider as much relevant input as I can find. So to actively CHOOSE the right and best way to go. I should choose, in the end, do you think? It really must be up to the individual to decide in the end, which way to go, I guess...

[Chance]

Originally Posted by aloneagainor

I should choose, in the end, do you think? It really must be up to the individual to decide in the end, which way to go, I guess...

Yes it is up to the individual on which way to go and what works for them. There is so many pieces to my recovery, NA, AA, Counseling, Phase 1, Higher Power, Smart Program. But out of all of them you seen what I put first and foremost. God to me means a Group OF DRUGGIES. Wow what a perception, actually this guy has said this before but there is also a difference between hearing it and listening to it. Well good that you are here. Always a pleasure.

Love Vic

[michski]

OH Yeah.. definitely necessary to have a sponsor. I too struggled with getting the nerve up to find a sponsor. Women where I live are SO busy and I didn't have enough self esteem to really believe it and/or myself were worth it. A sponsor did fall right into my lap and at 8 months clean/sober I began to work with her. My family had some really weird issues but I still went for the 4th step with all my body and soul. You gotta understand it takes another person to see where you've been selfish, inconsiderate and dishonest. At the time I was still playing the role of the victim and it was only through the relationship with my sponsor and the 12 Steps that I was able to free myself from my own bondage as well as the bondage of booze/drugs.
I sure hope you'll see the 12 Steps through... They changed my life so much for the better and brought me huge emotional maturity.

"Go joyfully into the sorrow of your own life"
Joseph Campbell

[Phinneas]

aloneagainor, my friend, I have to tell you that my best thinking got me high - i just couldn't face the wolrd the thoughts beteween my ears, you know? I am human and, of course, I will make mistakes. But you know what? Some of the mistakes sponor made, just maybe I don't have to.

I with you luck and blessing on your journey, my friend. There are good people out there and one of them can be your sponsor if you let them.

[aloneagainor]

Originally Posted by phinneas

There are good people out there and one of them can be your sponsor if you let them.

...if you let them. This is precisely what concerns me about whatever my brain is doing/ preventing without my knowing it. Probably I do continue to push people away/ block people (and opportunity) out as a continued form of self-isolating protection. Yet, I DO appreciate it when me deficiencies/ deceptive and manipulative techniques/ maladapative thinking is pointed out to me, and so long as it's not coming across as an attack (putting the defences up!), but is simply factually delivered as observation with intent to assist, I'm open to receive it. Yet, I always retain the option to reject it too. Which is where my own best thinking gets in the way.

Originally Posted by michski

OH Yeah.. definitely necessary to have a sponsor. I too struggled with getting the nerve up to find a sponsor. Women where I live are SO busy and I didn't have enough self esteem to really believe it and/or myself were worth it.

I sure hope you'll see the 12 Steps through... They changed my life so much for the better and brought me huge emotional maturity.

"Go joyfully into the sorrow of your own life"
Joseph Campbell

Another pointed concern, nailed directly head on. Everyone is TOO BUSY, and I cannot imagine troubling anyone with my concerns. I can't even ask for help in the simplest things (beyond requests for their writing out their mind...via this forum or e-mail at their convenience, when they have time and only if they so choose), asking someone to work through the steps/ sponsor me seems too insurmountably HUGE to even consider asking. Yet, I also understand the 12th step, having spent the past three weeks poring over that through the step-work group I've been attending. "We keep what we have by giving it away."

Wow, two Joseph Campbell quotes in the same thread. Phenomenal!

I'll keep my eyes and ears open. Thank you all kindly for sharing...

[temlin3]

Hey everyone,

I feel somewhat "immature" with this particular topic, as I have yet to get myself to a meeting. I have said to myself before that "I am going... No excuses..." but I have not followed through yet. I even have a complete list of meetings in my area, both near work and near home. I want to go so bad, because I know I need to. "Something" just always comes up.

This past weekend, I had one of those "revelations" that turns out to be our own internal warning sign for change. Change within ourselves, change within our lives... some kind of change. A big one.

I have realized that much of my problem is doing what I say I'm going to do. A lot of that involves the initial START of something. I am a creative of habit, as most of us are, and it's difficult for me to CHANGE my routine. But something has happened to me. I feel myself changing with each day. I am realizing how important it is to ACT in life. And I decided to "force" myself to go this week. I know that sounds awful, but I have to make myself go. If I can just my foot in that door, get the START over with, I can much more easily continue. And from what I've read and heard, mostly from you all at SR, NA meetings are an essential part of success in recovery.

Sponsors... I imagine I'll go down that road after I can get my butt in the door. But I can see every side of the topic that you guys have discussed so far. I see the difficulty and the necessity. In my mind, the best way I can think about it includes individuality and conviction. One sponsor, two sponsors, three close friends, four family members... whatever works for you. Then comes the consistency. We've got to be consistent with what works. If something is consistently helping our recovery, we try to maintain it. (Just my opinion here... After I mature into the next step of this process I hope to have more to say. But I must say this: I almost think of you as a "sponsor" for me right now. When I am lost or confused, I have somewhere to go. And that's truly a great help to me.)

I think when it comes down to it, the power of our choices always comes from within. Whether that is affected by friends, sponsors, God, gods, our environment, etc. depends on each of us personally. But when your "surroundings" disappear, you are left to make a choice. Scary, but wonderful, all at the same time. We have control. And if we don't feel it, we've got to aim for it. When we find it, we find ourselves. The true person that lies within. And then we will know what to do.

Thank you to aloneagainor for the posting of that Joseph Campbell quote. It hit me like a ton of bricks. There's another I would like to share that I believe is quite relevant for us...

"I dream my painting, and then I paint my dream."
- Vincent Van Gogh

Sometimes the eloquent way in which others have said things can help us find our own way. This is a quote that has helped me remember that I always have a choice. And no one can make it for me. I have to gain and maintain control over my decisions. It also gives me hope and motivation for a happy, fulfilling life. I've got to start painting my dreams.

I also have to point out one line from luckyv2, "God to me means a Group OF DRUGGIES." It made me laugh out loud. Thank you for that. Laughter always feels good.

Take care everyone. Hope you're all having a wonderful day.

Jennifer (The woman attending a meeting this week, no matter what.)

[aloneagainor]

Other people are quite the powerfully motivating force (I find to my great surprise and delight!) Just thinking to oneself it's too easy to change our mind. But saying it out loud, to someone who's there listening, and encouraging, and responding...morphs it into something somehow more REAL. With substance. Enduring.

Further, it has the effect of holding us more accountable to what we say when we write it down and/ or speak of it to others. People who understand and encourage us to do our best. It improves the condition of the WHOLE of humanity when people do their best, and are so encouraging of others to do so well.

Calls a lyric from the Grateful Dead to mind, "Strangers stopping strangers, just to shake their hand..."

At a meeting I once heard someone say he'd be there to listen and respond and talk with anyone with the desire to quit using drugs, however, he was not willing to work harder at it than the individual he was working with. That stayed with me close in mind. No-one can force anyone to do anything they don't want to do. It's the fundamental responsibility of every person to make choices and ACT in that direction, or not. Given that, there really is no "force" involved. Either we WANT it, or we don't. I find that when I apply force all I get is equal (and oftentimes stronger) resistence. So HEAD STRONG I am, and my addiction is even stronger than that because it's so deceptive, manipulative, it knows all those sneaky tricks and is quick to employ them to get what it wants. To see past it, requires outside perspective, outside insight, help and encouragement from other people.

...Again, more important reason to have a sponsor...

What goes around comes around. Grateful for the listening minds here, providing SUCH great food for thought.

(((temlin3...the Joseph Campbell and the Van Gogh quotes both...right on!!!)))

Alright, back to the gardens. I have a meeting tonight. I've been reading the "Just for Today" entries each week as the meeting opens. Today's reading, I see (thank you Vic for posting, as always) is on the subject of Honesty. Could not be more timely a subject.

[temlin3]

I don't know if I quoted this right, so I put actual quote marks in my text to make sure. (There were 2 different parts of aloneagainor's message I wanted to put in here.) Well, here goes...



[quote=aloneagainor]Other people are quite the powerfully motivating force (I find to my great surprise and delight!) Just thinking to oneself it's too easy to change our mind. But saying it out loud, to someone who's there listening, and encouraging, and responding...morphs it into something somehow more REAL. With substance. Enduring."

I couldn't agree more with you. This is so true for us, especially when we first admit we have an addiction. We have to let it out, break free from our "relationship" with the drug, and make a move to get better. Saying it or writing it to someone makes it real, you are right. It's such an important concept.
...

"No-one can force anyone to do anything they don't want to do. It's the fundamental responsibility of every person to make choices and ACT in that direction, or not. Given that, there really is no "force" involved. Either we WANT it, or we don't. I find that when I apply force all I get is equal (and oftentimes stronger) resistence. So HEAD STRONG I am, and my addiction is even stronger than that because it's so deceptive, manipulative, it knows all those sneaky tricks and is quick to employ them to get what it wants. To see past it, requires outside perspective, outside insight, help and encouragement from other people."

I notice the way you speak about the addiction as its own entity. I don't know that I have considered it like that before. But it definitely is. It has the potential to control us in every way. I also notice the "either it is or it isn't/ either you do or you don't" idea. This is so true. Either you're sober or you're not. There is no in-between. If we want sobriety, we have to quit altogether. There is no recovery without complete abstinence. Of course, we are all going to struggle and may relapse at one point or another, but we become free of our addiction when it is terminated completely.

I do see what you are saying about "force." I appreciate your response to that. And now, looking at it from a different perspective, I see how force really isn't such a great way to recover, from anything. The wanting and acting has to be there. The motivation.

I love this place (SR). I learn something new every day or get a new outlook on something. I deeply appreciate you all and your shared thoughts. This is such a positive part of my life.

Jennifer

[aloneagainor]

I didn't learn any of this in the confines of my own best thinking. Admitting I have an addiction wouldn't have occurred to me before realizing I am an addict. My own best thinking convinced me my use was justified, even rational, indispensible.

I learned about not "forcing the issue", but rather, to be open to look at the issue for what it is, from a thread over at Newcomers.

I realized I'm not alone or unique in my addiction here at SR, and now extending into NA.

I came to understand the recovery IS possible if we're willing to DO what it takes, and that it's a lot of work to get there, but there IS hope.

Requires OUTSIDE PERSPECTIVE from others who understand for any of this to make sense to the recovering addict. I learn so much here. So much still to be learned. I'm so enjoying the process, and the processing.

[Chance]

The process of recovery is just an amazing thing! I am just in awe this time at how my attitude has mostly been toward the positive. Yes I have had negative times but not a full bad day. It is just part of life on life's terms that each and everyone of society has to accept, live, and try to do there best.

For years I have been in the program (since 2002) and really have not applied what I have learned. From my own experience, once I was willing to apply it into my life thus making ALL of my life recovery, then and only then did the Process of Recovery start. I guess that was when I finally decided that I am going to do whatever I have to do to stay clean. I started to take the suggestion, and act upon them whether I liked them or not. I just did it, I knew that my best thinking was keeping me high for the last 3 months, turning into someone that I didn't want to be and yet I was probably that person all my life.

Opening up new doors to my past is very painful, yet I know that the pain won't get me high unless I choose to pick up. I am not choosing that path for I know that it leads to destruction of self, and destruction to life. I am enjoying the process of learning how to live life on life's terms. If there wasn't no PAIN involved then there would be no where to go in recovery. I am please and very fortunate to be here today, clean and sober, open-minded, willing to do what it takes to get what I want.

Love Vic

[Gooch]

Ever need a new tv? dishwasher, power saw? etc, etc. and decide your going to be an advised consumer and try and get the very best deal? You read product reviews, browse sales brochures, drive around to a half dozen stores trying to decide which one is the best purchase?

menawhile you have missed 3 episodes of american idol, got shrively hands from all those dishes you've been washing by hand, and still haven't built that dog house...oh and no matter how much money you save on your final purchase you are stil out the $50 bucks in gas and 12 hours of research time...

Thats what we do when we look too hard for that perfect sponsor.

I love the literature because although everyone has sone great input about sponsorship, all we really have to do is take a look at what the felllowship literatire committee whipped up after carefully merging the collected info of who knows how many members.

Sponsorship

I.P. No. 11
Copyright © 1983, NA Fellowship.

What is a sponsor?


A sponsor is a recovering addict in the program of Narcotics Anonymous; someone we can trust to share our life experiences with (both good and bad); a person to whom we can go with our problems that may be too personal to share with the group. It is suggested that a sponsor be someone who has practice in working the Twelve Steps and is involved in the program. Primarily, a sponsor is a guide through the Twelve Steps of recovery.


Who needs a sponsor?


It is our experience that most addicts need a sponsor. At times, we all find ourselves on shaky ground, confused, in emotional pain, and in need of a helping hand. Since we rarely trusted others, we attempted to go it alone in life. This became one of our problems We are people who have never learned how to live. This is where our sponsors come in. Our sponsors help by sharing their experience, strength, and hope. To sum it up, anyone who may have the desire to stay clean and begin to recover should have a sponsor.


How do you get a sponsor?


Listening is the key to finding a sponsor. The most obvious place to look for a sponsor is at NA meetings. Talk, share, and listen to members of the program; get plenty of phone numbers and use them. When you find someon with whom you can talk openly and relate, simply ask that person to be your sponsor. Chances are the answer will be "yes." Sometimes the person may be unable to sponsor you. Keep on trying! Remember that when one door closes, another will open. Continue to attend meetings, listen, and soon you will find a sponsor.


What length of clean time should a sponsor have?


The answer to this question varies from person to person. The sponsor may be a member with years of clean time behind him, or may only be a few months in the program. The sponsor's clean time and experience may well depend on the availability of sponsors in your area. The quality of time is more important than the quantity of cleant time. Choose someone who has a firm grasp on the twelve suggested steps of recovery in NA, seems reasonably happy, and has the willingness to help other recovering addicts. We call people like this "winners" and it is a good idea to find your sponsor among these recovering addicts.


Should a sponsor be a friend?


Our experience has shown that a good sponsor relationship need not be based on friendships, but trust is vital. When looking for sponsors, we considered their experiences in life, the quality of their clean time, their availability to us, and their willingness to help. As trust deepens, friendship based on mutual respect often follows.


Should my sponsor be a man or woman?


It is strongly suggested that we find a sponsor of the same sex. Experience has shown that members of the same sex better understand certain issues, such as sexuality, family or identity problems, etc. We are emotionally unstable and it is easy to form emotional bonds with members of the opposite sex. This detracts from our program and could spell disaster, especially for the newcomer.


Should we have more than one sponsor?


We think not! Our experience has shown that it's easier to receive direction from one individual. We find it easier to trust in one person, rather than many.

With one sponsor we can learn to build a relationship based on trust and honesty. Through shared experience, a sponsor is able to reflect on personal growth.

As we grow in the program we learn to be more open and honest with others.

Remember: "Just for today, I will have faith in someone in NA who believes in me and wants to help me in my recovery."


How do we use a sponsor?


Communication is the key to this relationship. When we have questions about any part of our program, we know we can look to our sponsor, but it is our responsibility to get in touch with them at these times. Whether it be by telephone or in person, we share our problems with our sponsor. Good or bad, we try to share our experiences on a daily basis. Day or night, whenever we feel the need, we contact our sponsor. It is important that we be honest with our sponsor, that we listen with an open mind to suggestions, and that we are willing to try a way other than our own.

Remember, we need never be alone.



How to be a sponsor


It is our experience that the decision to become a sponsor is an important step in our recovery and should not be taken lightly. We believe that, whenever possible, we consult our own sponsor before agreeing to sponsor someone else. In order to arrive at this decision, we might wish to explore our motives. Are we considering sponsorship to look good amongst the fellowship, or to help the addict who still suffers?

Remember that we can only keep what we have by giving it away. Therefore, we may wish to consider the following questions: Am I ready to become a sponsor? Am I willing to share my experience, strength, and hope? Am I willing to make a commitment?

After having decided to become a sponsor, where do we go from here? We feel it is important to realize that our own recovery comes first. We believe that the basic purpose of sponsorship is to help the addict through the Twelve Steps of recovery. It becomes increasingly obvious to us that the best way to do this is by example. Sponsorship is an extension of our own personal program of recovery. One of the most difficult aspects of sponsorship is drawing the line between caring and enabling. We feel it is enabling them when we work their program for them. It doesn't help addicts if their sponsors are overprotective. Sometimes, tough love is essential to an addict's growth. We suggest that you keep in mind that it is our responsibility to carry the message, not the addict. We are not reformers, preachers of the gospel, welfare workers, part-time social workers, marriage counselors, money lenders, employment counselors, or parole officers. It is important to remember that we are also suffering addicts.

There may be times when you are unable to relate to the person you sponsor. At this time you may direct them to someone who may help. We need not feel guilty if someone we sponsor relapses. We are all responsible for our own recovery. There will be times when we won't have the answers. It is our responsibility to seek these answers out with the people we sponsor. We are not God!

[temlin3]

Hi Gooch,

Thanks so much for the information on sponsors. I am extremely new to the entire program... and will finally attend my first NA meeting this weekend. I've got 2 picked out, both close to my house but on different nights & places. Is it a good thing to try attending several meetings and wait for a "perfect fit"?

I'm also just curious about the role of sponsors... Does each sponsor only have one "student" each? (Is that what we are called, the newcomers who are seeking sponsors?) I was thinking if a sponsor does have more than one, or is able to, what is the limit? Is that something we should cautious of?

OK, one last question... (me and my curious mind)... Does a sponsor ever ask a newcomer ("student") to be their (the student's) sponsor? Is that likely or a rarity?

Again, thanks for the wealth of information. There is a lot to learn, and I am ready for this ever-important journey.

OK, so I lied. One last question: Is there a book recommended for members of NA that covers the 12 steps, sponsorship, program details, etc.? If yes, is it acquired through meetings or is it possible to buy at a bookstore or online?

Thank you again. It's a great thing to have people with similar life issues who are ready, willing, and able to share their problems, experiences, help/advice, and knowledge. I have once again been educated on SR.

Jennifer

[Gooch]

I am on the way out the door for work ( almost running late) but wanted to answer this first. The Narcotics Anonymous Basic Text is the book you want.

It is available at meetings, may be found in many libraries, and can be found online in used condition.

I'll try to get back and answer some of your questions later tonight.

[aloneagainor]

Originally Posted by luckyv2

...each and everyone of society has to accept, live, and try to do (their) best.

Originally Posted by temlin3

Is it a good thing to try attending several meetings and wait for a "perfect fit"?

Originally Posted by gooch

...Thats what we do when we look too hard for that perfect sponsor.

Again, all about Progress, not Perfection! Trying to figure things out...much appreciate all this input...seeking information...progressing along...

Before proceeding further I must address this, because it's soooo beautifully interconnected, hits directly on what I'm seeking, in finding my place in the Whole...

At the start of the outdoor NA meeting last weekend there was a "Clean-time Countdown". All 70+ in attendance stood, to be seated again when their clean time number was called. Two long time members led the &