Buprenorphine info

[fitnessgirrl]

Hi,

I was wondering if anyone could give me information on buprenorphine. My bf was addicted to opiates and is now taking buprenex (injecting). I just found out that he doubles his dosage and ran out before he was supposed to. So he was freaking out yesterday trying to get a refill.

I was looking online and they said increasing the dosage doesn't do anything because it has a 'ceiling effect'...? So why would he do this?

Also, he still takes opiates on occasion - dilaudid (injects) and oxycontin. He also takes xanax and valiums which I read you are not supposed to take with buprenorphine?

This is all new to me and I am trying to understand what I am getting involved in.

Any information that you could provide would be very helpful.

Thanks.

[splendra]

http://buprenorphine.samhsa.gov/about.html

Here is a link about the buprenorphine. I do not think that he is supposed to be injecting it. They say it comes in "sub-lingal" form which means, under the tongue.

[splendra]

bump

[Rajiv Bhole]

Bupranorphene is what many of our addict friends injected to get high when they could not afford other opiates.
Bupranorphene for harm-reduction or as a treatment is always taken sub-lingual i.e. the tablet/pill is kept under the tounge till it desolves.

[Chance]

Originally Posted by fitnessgirrl

I was looking online and they said increasing the dosage doesn't do anything because it has a 'ceiling effect'...? So why would he do this?

Well the reason that he would do it is because he is an addict. Most of us think that if a little bit will help then more would be better. We get trapped into that thinking of the obsessive and compulsive behaviour. Now mind you I never used to much, I could never get enough and that is what we do. But as long as the are breathing there is always hope.

Love Vic

[Time4Change]

Subutex is only buprenorphine, which comes in a sublingual pill form or ampules for injection. It is supposed to be used only for the first week of induction (when the addict is in the early stages of w/d). My doctor didn't use that, though. I was started on Suboxone. In the second week, you're given Suboxone, which has the ingredient Naloxone in it which is the opiate agonist. It blocks any opiate effect from the buprenorphine, and if you should happen to take some type of opiate, it'll block it, too. You'll just get sick. If you take too much Sub, you'll get sick. It does have a ceiling effect to it. You're right, Vic, that the addict behavior wants to try more Sub, but the Sub won't let you. Blech! I think it's a very effective way to teach the recovering opiate addict not to run for a pill every two hours or every time they feel uncomfortable. It's definitely saved my life. Most people who are against Sub usage for detox treatment usually don't fully understand its true function or chemical makeup. I don't look at it as replacing one drug with another. It does not produce euphoria. I take it with my anti-depressants.

[eddie z.]

fitnessgirrl,
Sounds like "was addicted" is the wrong phrase to use. Obviously, your man IS addicted to opiates because he's still using. When buprenorphine is used for addiction treatment (rather than for pain), it is NOT injected. Seems you've done alot of your homework. You're right. Taking benzos such as Xanax and Valium along with buprenorphine is a really bad idea. Could lead to a fatal overdose.

And Vic is right about why he would push the dose even though there is a ceiling effect. That's just typical addict behavior. But my big concern here is YOU. See how you are already consumed with dealing with HIS disease. I suggest you get to some Al-Anon or Nar-Anon meetings and learn to focus on yourself and taking care of you. I wish you both all the best!!

Love and hugs,
Eddie

P.S. Hey, T4C! Naloxone is an opiate ANTagonist. I think you had a little brain fart. LOL. Love you, girl!!

[fitnessgirrl]

Originally Posted by eddie z.

Sounds like "was addicted" is the wrong phrase to use. Obviously, your man IS addicted to opiates because he's still using. When buprenorphine is used for addiction treatment (rather than for pain), it is NOT injected. Seems you've done alot of your homework. You're right. Taking benzos such as Xanax and Valium along with buprenorphine is a really bad idea. Could lead to a fatal overdose.

And Vic is right about why he would push the dose even though there is a ceiling effect. That's just typical addict behavior. But my big concern here is YOU. See how you are already consumed with dealing with HIS disease. I suggest you get to some Al-Anon or Nar-Anon meetings and learn to focus on yourself and taking care of you. I wish you both all the best!!

Thank you for responding. He keeps telling me how he is not an addict anymore because he went from shooting 'hard core stuff' (morphine, oxy, diaudid, heroin, fentanyl) to just the buprenex and the occasional opiate and xanax's.

He knows the mix is fatal and we talked about it. It's not going to stop him though. He doesn't seem to care.

This is all new for me and I was taking his word for everything I guess. I didn't know if he would still be considered an 'addict'. But yeah he is doing the buprenex a few times a day every day and if he knows he is going to do an opiate (like oxy) he won't take his bupenex that day. I guess this is so he won't get sick?

I am trying to figure out how to attend a meeting without him knowing. He is against nar-anon (he has gone to meetings) and has nothing nice to say about it and the people that go. He was annoyed that I was posting on a board like this because he said I should come to him with questions. He does answer all my questions honestly but I still have doubts I guess.

[splendra]

(((fitnessgirrl)))

I am very concerned that you still call his explantions honest...cause they are not....

The fact that you would have to sneak to a meeting seems a little controling to me. He doesn't like people in recovery because he is not in it himself. They are mirroring for him the voice in his head that he does not want to hear I think....

[fitnessgirrl]

Originally Posted by splendra

I am very concerned that you still call his explantions honest...cause they are not....

The fact that you would have to sneak to a meeting seems a little controling to me. He doesn't like people in recovery because he is not in it himself. They are mirroring for him the voice in his head that he does not want to hear I think....

He thinks the nar-anon people are 'cult like'. I think he would let me go to a meeting but he wouldn't be all for it. It would create drama.

Last night he told me he has been to detox twice and did attend meetings but he didn't like the people.

Basically he tries to play it down I guess... He always compares now to how he used to be.

[splendra]

He does not want you to go to naranon because he knows they will teach you to see thru his BS...

[MamaGoose]

"You think he would LET you go to a meeting."

What is wrong with that picture?

Wake up and smell the coffee: He's an addict and he is using you.

He's not in recovery. He doesn't like NA because he knows that he is still an addict. If you went to meeting you would learn alot.

I hope you go..............

[fitnessgirrl]

Originally Posted by MamaGoose

"You think he would LET you go to a meeting."

What is wrong with that picture?

Wow - I didn't even realize the inpact of that statement- until now.

[Time4Change]

Originally Posted by splendra

He doesn't like people in recovery because he is not in it himself. They are mirroring for him the voice in his head that he does not want to hear I think....

Yep! I like that quote very much, splendra! I think you're right on the money.

I really hope you'll listen to the kind folks here, fitnessgirl. They know what they're talking about. I'm worried for you, given what you've described. He is feeding you a lot of bull. Addicts are great at going on and on in our little diatribes about why everyone else is screwed up and why they don't understand us, when all along, we know in our heads we're totally wrong and that we have a problem.

Please keep posting here, and definitely get to a Naranon meeting.

Originally Posted by eddie z

P.S. Hey, T4C! Naloxone is an opiate ANTagonist. I think you had a little brain fart. LOL. Love you, girl!!

DERP! Thanks eddie-dahling! That's exactly what I meant.

[fitnessgirrl]

Originally Posted by Time4Change

Addicts are great at going on and on in our little diatribes about why everyone else is screwed up and why they don't understand us, when all along, we know in our heads we're totally wrong and that we have a problem.

Wow - this struck me as well.

In the last week he has discovered that I am dysfunctional and that I need help. Yes, I definitely have some emotional issues that I need to face but he has been researching it on the internet, printing stuff out and emailing people about ME. Everytime I say or do something he relates it back to this 'personality disorder' that he is nw convinced I have. (Maybe I do but still...) It's really making me stressed, frustrated and depressed. I am beginning to feel like maybe I really am mentally unstable and dysfunctional.

No one has ever done anything like this with me before and it is very unsettling.

Is he trying to take the focus off of himself?

[Time4Change]

Originally Posted by fitnessgirrl

Is he trying to take the focus off of himself?

You got it, sweetie. I'm so sorry that he's making you doubt your own sanity. You don't deserve that. I hope you'll get help for yourself, like maybe a Naranon meeting or some type of support group. It sounds like he's just not ready to help himself.

Good luck, fitnessgirrl! Take care of yourself, k?

[splendra]

Originally Posted by fitnessgirrl

I am beginning to feel like maybe I really am mentally unstable and dysfunctional.

I am sure he will do everything in his power to see that you stay that way too...I wonder what kind of disorder he has decided that you have? We around here might call it co-dependency is that what he says you have?

[MamaGoose]

((( fitnessgirrl)))
Check out # 3

8 easy ways to SPOT an Emotional Manipulator
________________________________________
Emotional manipulators get extra marks for subtlety. A patronizing, mind-****** can bend and twist and warp but somehow after a period of time they set off the ol’ bullshit meter. An emotional manipulator is smoother. You’ll have to adjust the sensitivity of your bullshit meter to escape unscathed. What is emotional manipulation? Well, emotional manipulation is a method of using words, body language and behavior for the purposes of provoking a particular reaction, getting a desired response or to just plain ol’ screw you over. If the emotional blackmailer is any good, he’ll be having you offering to bend over and be ****** one more time, "anything you want dear." Lets talk about how an emotional manipulator works and how to recognize the game (because it very much IS a game) so you can reset that bullshit meter and safeguard against possible attack.


1. There is no use in trying to be honest with an emotional manipulator. You make a statement and it will be turned around. Example: I am really angry that you forgot my birthday. Response - "It makes me feel sad that you would think I would forget your birthday, I should have told you of the great personal stress I am facing at the moment - but you see I didn’t want to trouble you. You are right I should have put all this pain (don’t be surprised to see real tears at this point) aside and focused on your birthday. Sorry." Even as you are hearing the words you get the creeped out sensation that they really do NOT mean they are sorry at all - but since they’ve said the words you’re pretty much left with nothing more to say. Either that or you suddenly find yourself babysitting their angst!! Under all circumstances if you feel this angle is being played - don’t capitulate! Do not care take - do not accept an apology that feels like bullshit. If it feels like bullshit - it probably is. Rule number one - if dealing with an emotional blackmailer TRUST your gut. TRUST your senses. Once an emotional manipulator finds a successful maneuver - it’s added to their hit list and you’ll be fed a steady diet of this ****.

2.An emotional manipulator is the picture of a willing helper. If you ask them to do something they will almost always agree - that is IF they didn’t volunteer to do it first. Then when you say, "ok thanks" - they make a bunch of heavy sighs, or other non verbal signs that let you know they don’t really want to do whatever said thing happens to be. When you tell them it doesn’t seem like they want to do whatever - they will turn it around and try to make it seem like OF COURSE they wanted to and how unreasonable you are. This is a form of crazy making - which is something emotional manipulators are very good at. Rule number two - If an emotional manipulator said YES - make them accountable for it. Do NOT buy into the sighs and subtleties - if they don’t want to do it - make them tell you it up front - or just put on the walk-man headphones and run a bath and leave them to their theater.

3.Crazy making - saying one thing & later assuring you they did not say it. If you find yourself in a relationship where you figure you should start keeping a log of what’s been said because you are beginning to question your own sanity --You are experiencing emotional manipulation. An emotional manipulator is an expert in turning things around, rationalizing, justifying and explaining things away. They can lie so smoothly that you can sit looking at black and they’ll call it white - and argue so persuasively that you begin to doubt your very senses. Over a period of time this is so insidious and eroding it can literally alter your sense of reality. WARNING: Emotional Manipulation is VERY Dangerous! It is very disconcerting for an emotional manipulator if you begin carrying a pad of paper and a pen and making notations during conversations. Feel free to let them know you just are feeling so "forgetful" these days that you want to record their words for posterity’s sake. The damndest thing about this is that having to do such a thing is a clear example for why you should be seriously thinking about removing yourself from range in the first place. If you’re toting a notebook to safeguard yourself - that ol’ bullshit meter should be flashing steady by now!

4.Guilt. Emotional manipulators are excellent guilt mongers. They can make you feel guilty for speaking up or not speaking up, for being emotional or not being emotional enough, for giving and caring, or for not giving and caring enough. Any thing is fair game and open to guilt with an emotional manipulator. Emotional manipulators seldom express their needs or desires openly - they get what they want through emotional manipulation. Guilt is not the only form of this but it is a potent one. Most of us are pretty conditioned to do whatever is necessary to reduce our feelings of guilt. Another powerful emotion that is used is sympathy. An emotional manipulator is a great victim. They inspire a profound sense of needing to support, care for and nurture. Emotional Manipulators seldom fight their own fights or do their own dirty work. The crazy thing is that when you do it for them (which they will never ask directly for), they may just turn around and say they certainly didn’t want or expect you to do anything! Try to make a point of not fighting other people’s battles, or doing their dirty work for them. A great line is "I have every confidence in your ability to work this out on your own" - check out the response and note the bullshit meter once again.

5.Emotional manipulators fight dirty. They don’t deal with things directly. They will talk around behind your back and eventually put others in the position of telling you what they would not say themselves. They are passive aggressive, meaning they find subtle ways of letting you know they are not happy little campers. They’ll tell you what they think you want to hear and then do a bunch of jerk off **** to undermine it. Example: "Of course I want you to go back to school honey and you know I’ll support you." Then exam night you are sitting at the table and poker buddies show up, the kids are crying the t.v. blasting and the dog needs walking - all the while "Sweetie" is sitting on their ass looking at you blankly. Dare you call them on such behavior you are likely to hear, "well you can’t expect life to just stop because you have an exam can you honey?" Cry, scream or choke ‘em - only the last will have any long-term benefits and it’ll probably wind your butt in jail.

6.If you have a headache an emotional manipulator will have a brain tumor!! No matter what your situation is the emotional manipulator has probably been there or is there now - but only ten times worse. It’s hard after a period of time to feel emotionally connected to an emotional manipulator because they have a way of de-railing conversations and putting the spotlight back on themselves. If you call them on this behavior they will likely become deeply wounded or very petulant and call you selfish - or claim that it is you who are always in the spotlight. The thing is that even though you know this is not the case you are left with the impossible task of proving it. Don’t bother - TRUST your gut and walk away!

7.Emotional manipulators somehow have the ability to impact the emotional climate of those around them. When an emotional manipulator is sad or angry the very room thrums with it - it brings a deep instinctual response to find someway to equalize the emotional climate and the quickest route is by making the emotional manipulator feel better - fixing whatever is broken for them. Stick with this type of loser for too long and you will be so enmeshed and co-dependent you will forget you even have needs - let alone that you have just as much right to have your needs met.

8.Emotional manipulators have no sense of accountability. They take no responsibility for themselves or their behavior - it is always about what everyone else has "done to them". One of the easiest ways to spot an emotional manipulator is that they often attempt to establish intimacy through the early sharing of deeply personal information that is generally of the "hook-you-in-and-make-you-sorry-for-me" variety. Initially you may perceive this type of person as very sensitive, emotionally open and maybe a little vulnerable. Believe me when I say that an emotional manipulator is about as vulnerable as a rabid pit bull, and there will always be a problem or a crisis to overcome.
Some would say it is possible with time, a great deal of honesty and communication to work through emotional manipulation. Personally I think life is short and precious - the only worthwhile thing to do when confronted with an emotionally manipulative person is to BROOM THEIR ASS TO THE CURB! A relationship with emotionally manipulative person is similar to re-exposing yourself over and over and over to a highly toxic and potentially fatal virus. Each brush with it reduces your immunity and weakens your defenses. It can take more time for someone that has been in an emotionally manipulative relationship (READ: ABUSE) to recover than it does for someone that leaves a physically abusive one. At least you can name that punch that hit you. Emotional abuse is subtle. It is insidious. It is dangerous. If you are in it - walk away and never look back. Make it a rule!
__________________

[fitnessgirrl]

Originally Posted by splendra

I am sure he will do everything in his power to see that you stay that way too...I wonder what kind of disorder he has decided that you have? We around here might call it co-dependency is that what he says you have?

No, it's a personality disorder that I fit 33% - he even figured out the percentage. I don't doubt I have some of the characteristics but no one is perfect, right?

[namommy]

Fitnessgirl.

You really need to get to a meeting, or better yet, hightail your butt right out of there.

I am an addict. I am an old junkie and manipulator. As addicts,we will tend to somehow make you and anyone else around us responsibile for our actions.

I want to go back for a minute. You said he doesn't take the buprenorphine if he KNOWS that he is going to be taking an opiate such as oxycontin. Unless he has a broken neck and is prescribed oxy's for the severe pain, how would he know he is taking them? He's planning on using them to get high. ie. he's using. You see, if he were taking them for legit reasons, and his doctors knew about it, he would be taking them regularly as prescribed, then he wouldn't be taking the buprenorphine at all. I see lies, deceipt, justification, and manipulation right there.

My mothers favorite joke after I got clean. "How can you tell when an addict is lying?"..."They open their mouths".

Truer words have never been spoken.

DO NOT let this man convince you that you have something wrong with you. He is the one with the disease. You may have co-dependency issues, but we all do to some extent.

As far as him going to meetings. Most addicts, who are not ready to face reality and take responsibility for their own actions, have found many things to see wrong with the programs...."this is a cult....these people aren't as bad as me, they found it easy to get clean...these people are so much worse than me, they had no other choice but to stop using....too young...too old....to black...to white..." I think you get the message.

Until he is ready, he will find a million and one things wrong with the message and find a million and one things to try to convince you that you are the problem. DO NOT LISTEN TO HIM.

Get yourself to a meeting and start working on you. Start to learn the ways we manipulate others so he can no longer manipulate you.

All you can do for him is pray.

[splendra]

(((fitnessgirrl)))

(((namommy))) and (((eddiez))) are both health care professionals and also recovering addicts. Both of them know about prescription drugs and how they are administered. The others are all in varying stages of recovery from drugs and co-dependency.

You are just a few months into this relationship you are not married nor do have children with this guy. I realize that you do have an emotional investment in this person. As bad as you feel right now can you imagine how bad you are going to feel if you stay with this guy any longer...believe me it gets worse alot worse before it ever gets better. I personally feel that because of the loss of your parents that you are very vulnerable and this guy just walked right in and just smeared you because he saw your vulnerbility. Unfortuantely addiction takes good people down. The spirit of addiction is evil and evil is always looking for a way to get a foothold in to a good persons life. You cannot "help" this person. If he really does love you he would want you to get away from him.

Love is not confusing, hurtful, self seeking, threatening or controling. Love is kind, encouraging, and freeing.

This guy is controling, threatening, and using you. Is this really what you want?

[eddie z.]

(((((fitnessgirrl))))),
So, what do you think? You've received alot of excellent feedback here. Not much I can add. I was amused about the cult thing, though. I used to think 12-Step Programs were a cult, too. Maybe they are a little bit, but so what? I know I needed a good brainwashing when I got clean because my brain was thoroughly contaminated. Today, I am grateful for the Program. I don't think I would be alive today if I hadn't found it!

Love and hugs,
Eddie

[fitnessgirrl]

Originally Posted by splendra

(((fitnessgirrl)))

You are just a few months into this relationship you are not married nor do have children with this guy. I realize that you do have an emotional investment in this person. As bad as you feel right now can you imagine how bad you are going to feel if you stay with this guy any longer...believe me it gets worse alot worse before it ever gets better. I personally feel that because of the loss of your parents that you are very vulnerable and this guy just walked right in and just smeared you because he saw your vulnerbility. Unfortuantely addiction takes good people down. The spirit of addiction is evil and evil is always looking for a way to get a foothold in to a good persons life. You cannot "help" this person. If he really does love you he would want you to get away from him.

Love is not confusing, hurtful, self seeking, threatening or controling. Love is kind, encouraging, and freeing.

This guy is controling, threatening, and using you. Is this really what you want?

Yes, I am very vulnerable. I actually am trying to form some sort of relationship with my brother so my bf is not the only person in my life. I called him yesterday after not speaking for a few months. I spoke with his wife who is in AA about my bf a little (I was selective in what I told her. I don't really have a good relationship with them). She was very understanding and listened. It helped me feel a little more grounded. When I told my bf that I called them he freaked out a little. He keeps saying HE is there for me and HE will take care of me and HE is my family now. I told him that I need other people in my life because I have no one. If we ever split up then I have no one. He got upset saying that I am always preparing for us to break up. I guess I am sort of but I have to look out for myself.

I agree that he is a bit controlling. I don't feel that he is using me at all. I don't give him money and he is working more so he can give me money to help me out. Threatening? He has made comments in anger but he would never physically harm me. I do think that if I start asserting myself again he might walk. I was like that in the beginning when I met him and slowly I turned into this emotional wreck that I am now.

[fitnessgirrl]

Originally Posted by eddie z.

(((((fitnessgirrl))))),
So, what do you think? You've received alot of excellent feedback here. Not much I can add. I was amused about the cult thing, though. I used to think 12-Step Programs were a cult, too. Maybe they are a little bit, but so what? I know I needed a good brainwashing when I got clean because my brain was thoroughly contaminated. Today, I am grateful for the Program. I don't think I would be alive today if I hadn't found it!

What do I think? I agree that I have received great feedback, support, honesty and encouragement from the people here. It has helped me immensely to have somewhere to go to 'unload' and get feedback. I have no other outlet.

While I realize the advice to walk might be what I should do - my heart is in another place. I love him and I have something with him that I have never experienced before in any other relationship.

I know I need some outside help. I am going to attend a meeting next week. I want to take steps to try to get myself back to where I was before I met him because I lost myself a bit during all this.

[splendra]

Originally Posted by fitnessgirrl

I agree that he is a bit controlling. I don't feel that he is using me at all. I don't give him money and he is working more so he can give me money to help me out. Threatening? He has made comments in anger but he would never physically harm me. I do think that if I start asserting myself again he might walk. I was like that in the beginning when I met him and slowly I turned into this emotional wreck that I am now.

Why is he a bit controling? What does he seek to gain from controling you? Those comments made in anger...where do they come from? And how do you know what a person that you have known for only a few months is capible of? Great sex does not equal love. When someone you are having great sex with also makes life hell something is off somewhere. You have never had this kind of relationship...uhhh do you mean that sex has never been this good?