andyaddict

THESE arguments, "these" ... meaning the World Board was using the arguments themselves, then attempting to justify.

It's like slapping your kid in the face - then telling him to stop hitting his sister.

a

Gmoney

KJ...do you think that the anti-AA claims are really anti-NA stuff? Seems like it sometimes to me. Kinda like throwing a rock and hiding your hand stuff.

kj3880

Yep, seems like it to me. Why are people coming on this forum to exclusively criticize current-day NA? That detracts from the purpose of this forum. In the future, I will stay completely out of these types of discussion. I think that they are a distraction from carrying the message, and a distraction from the serious business of recovery from drug addiction. And that's the real shame.

Love,
KJ

Gmoney

Same here.

andyaddict

Inventory vs. criticize.

We made a searching and fearless moral criticism...

Eh, let's not because it seems a distraction of my feeling good about myself?

The problems with debate is that sometimes it gets personal.



Many of us will do nothing more than harden our position, however a spirited debate will encourage others to rethink their position.

a

Weeza

I'm wondering if recovery has to be so complicated. I'm newish to the NA program, having my first 18 years of recovery in a sister program for drunks, but I am an addict, clean and sober-- it's a funny position for me to be in today because I have so much language from the other program in my head and have yet to fully read the NA big book that at times when I share in meetings, I feel that I inadvertently bother NA oldtimers by mentioning the "sober" word when it's supposed to be "clean."

What's the difference?

In France, when I first found NA, it was my third year in recovery and the language in the French meetings was "clean and sober" ... I'm finding though that here in America, after attending a NA meetings for a month and sharing when I can, I make the 'error' of saying saying "sober" when it should be "clean" or "sobriety" when it should be "clean time."

I make it a point to apologize in meetings if my language is off, that I'm moving into NA from another 12-step program because the other program does not effectively address addiction problems beyond alcohol, and as my health has greatly taken a turn for the worst and I'm needing to follow doctor's orders to be on prescription medication, my former sponsor could no longer sponsor me because she has the view that all medication is to be avoided.

In my heart, I know I've not abused any medication nor am taking it to enjoy any intoxicating effect. All the medicine does is help me be able to walk and move about with less pain, but the pain still exists... I just feel that because I was so badly rejected by the founding program of my recovery that to stay honest with my Higher Power, it's now time for me to fully move into the NA way... And I must say, that in doing so, I am now more active in service than I have been in over a decade.

It's just a matter of time that the language will be picked up and my shares will be received as my Higher Power intends for them to be conveyed, and I think, too, that by remaining consistent in meetings, my new NA friends will grow to trust me and not feel that I'm in the wrong room... But perhaps they're not even thinking this stuff and I just need to let go of what a former sponsor from the other program put in my head about NA folks not being 'the same' (whatever!).

Anyways, it seems to me that relating doesn't have to be so complicated, and I'm wondering, too if it's really necessary to break down the NA big book for analysis like a bible study.... they're just stories and suggestions and when it comes down to what's right, it's our own honesty and experience and willingness to be there for the next member who needs support, right?

Weeza

Missybuns

yes weeza. I'm glad you are here. Keeping it simple is seems to be more difficult for some than others. It even varies for me how difficult I make things...I check my motivation when I get caught up in stuff.

Some take issue with controling the language in meetings and some don't.

What's the difference?....well that would depend on one's perception or misconception...on top of attitude.

If we are going to pass judgement on someone for the language they use in meetings...we might as well go out and use!

so yeah....if I'm sensing your sentiment I totally understand your "what's the difference?"

peace,
Missy

Weeza

Hey Missybuns, Thanks! Hugs

WhiChoc225

Seriously. There really are things that are more important than us as individuals and sometimes personal opinions don’t really matter.
But to keep it real simple: there would not be enough time for everyone to go around the room and name everything we are all addicted to. If there are 25 addicts in a meeting, the introductions alone could last several days straight.
BUT what the identity statement really does is take the focus off the substance and put it on recovery where it belongs. Any addict that is really working a program of recovery wants to live in the solution and not the problem.

There are no rules in NA. NA does not say you cant do this and or cant say that. Tradition 6 states "Nothing is NA except NA. We carry our message, not force our opinion" I would not walk into an AA meeting and purposely disrespect those traditions, the literature and AA’s primary purpose in the middle of a meeting by refusing to respect their requests based on their shared experience and history thinking I know better. I would not then complain about them when there’s different meetings ( for me a different fellowship ) where I can go that works for me.
Otherwise, what is my motivation for being there? SO why are you so threatened by a different opinion? Focus on yourself. Don’t go to those meetings, there are many many others.
The Identity statement is not read at every meeting. IN NJ, I rarely hear it read. SO, if its read where you go and you dont agree; either go to a different meeting, or if its a meeting you otherwise really enjoy then join the home group so you can have a say in what is read and not read at that meeting. If you dont agree with the whole idea that addiction is addiction and you feel that a certain substance requires special recognition maybe you should try a different fellowship. They have all those "special substance" fellowhips - besides alcohol, opiates, cocaine, marijuana, sex, food, shopping, etc etc etc

In the Back of the Basic Text - There are personal stories which have NOTHING to do with the Identity Statement. The Identity or Clarity Statement is a NA World SVCS Board of Trustees Bulletin. The –anecdotal- PERSONAL STORIES are a part of the Basic Text so that any addict can identify with at least one of them. SO they understand that NA is all – inclusive, and that ANY addict can find the freedom from active addiction. That is why there is such a varied compilation of individual addicts stories included. I believe in that edition they also have the story of a food addict (its called fat addict) to show that ALL addicts are welcome in NA

BettieforReal

I want to vent a bit about the "alcohol and drug addiction" policy which basically says: every addict is automatically addicted, in theory, to each and every drug in the universe, alcohol included. Case closed, no further discussion.
I have tried many drugs - alcohol, marijuana, hashish, meth, amphetamines, LSD, heroin, various other opiates, Valium, Xanax, Klonopin,quaaludes, shrooms, powder cocaine, crack cocaine. My one and only addiction is crack cocaine. I didn't get addicted to that until I was in my mid- thirties. I had taken various other drugs - and drank (lightly, infrequently) - for around 20 years before I was introduced to crack. No drug has ever taken over my life or wreaked havoc like crack did. I enjoyed other drugs from time to time, never getting hooked.
Since quitting crack, I've used alcohol and magic mushrooms and klonopin, no more than several times yearly, and I've continued to use opioid and opiate painkillers quite regularly - with short breaks - as prescribed by my doctor. No one holds on to the narcotics for me or doles them out to me. I sometimes take LESS than prescribed, so I have had plenty of extra medication available at home. (I save it for a rainy day, never touch it.)
What irritates me is all those people who insist that I WILL become addicted to alcohol and other drugs: Either I'll get out of control with another substance...or I'll return to crack as a result of "lowered inhibitions" due to a drink, a pill, a jay, whatever. It hasn't happened yet and I'm about 50! I don't believe that the dire predictions are true. Oh, I believe that there ARE many addictive personality types who can't trust themselves with a beer or a doctor's prescription. I just wish that someone would believe me and my experience - and acknowledge that ADDICTS AND ADDICTIONS ARE NOT ALL ALIKE. I also take issue with frequent statements which lump all addicts in one pile..."normies" in the other pile, with high-handed pronouncements about both groups. The usual gross generalization is that normies are all angels and addicts ...well...the opposite. My experience is that people are individuals. There is no one personality or character for users and another stereotype which fits anyone yet to develop an obvious addiction.
Other non-truths: Go to meetings regularly for the rest of your life - or you will go back to drugs/ drinks/whatever. Alcoholics can not ever become moderate or light drinkers. All "substances" and addictions are the same.
I support such things as decriminalization and harm reduction (which includes the possibility of total abstinence, but is not limited to that alone), but they are taboo subjects in Narcotics Anonymous. There must be others who share my feelings, but I've never heard the slightest dissent. I would like to hear from anyone who does not agree with the popular "wisdom".

Gmoney

After reading your post Bettieforreal, a few difference things about NA came to mind:

[1] "...our problem is not a specific substance, it is a disease called addiction." - NA Basic Text, page xv

[2] "Because of the variety of addicts found within our Fellowship, we approach the solution contained in this book in general terms." - NA Basic Text, page xv

[3]"We tried drugs and combinations of drugs to cope with a seemingly hostile world. We dreamed of finding a magic formula that would solve our ultimate problem - ourselves." - NA Basic Text, page 4

Although this thread started as a debate or discussion on Clarity Statements used in meetings, I understand how topics can turn a corner and go in another direction. So, for the sake of argument, I'll bite and give my opinion on some of what you've shared - keeping in mind that this is an NA FORUM.

The only "policy" that I'm aware of that NA endorses is mentioned in our 11th Tradition. And our 11th Tradition states that no individual inside or outside NA represents NA. With that said, I find it important to remember that everyone is entitled to their opinions, whether right or wrong, about who gets addicted to what. For me, it is also important to keep in mind that there's a difference between being addicted physically or mentally to a substance and being an addict who has the disease of addiction. NA doesn't declare who is an addict or who isn't...this is something each individual must conclude for themselves. If you've ever read our literature or attended our meetings you may have heard it said that all we're concerned with is what you want to do about your problem and how we can help. We don't care about what or how much you used...

Since we, in NA, view addiction as a disease, there is no separation between "normie" angels or addict demons. We are sick people trying to get well, not bad people trying to be good. Even our literature speaks of our diversity and how some of us went to greater extremes than others. There is no one-size-fits-all definition, yet OUR EXPERIENCE has taught us that denial, rationalization, justification and substitution are all common aspects of our disease.

Non-truth? Says who? If you've never tried it, you can't possibly know. NA suggests, as a "good idea," that newcomers attend 90 meetings in their first 90 days clean (for good reason)...and our literature does suggest that those who attend our meetings regularly stay clean. I've never read it anywhere that "if you don't" you'll use...BUT OUR EXPERIENCE has been that those who survive a relapse and return, routinely state that non-meeting attendance was a factor in their return to active addiction. I've personally met many addicts who haven't attended meetings for years, but they always return because they want to. NA is a great place to be, but you'd never know if you're on the outside looking for fault.

Another thing that gets twisted out of proportion by nay-sayers and those inexperienced with NA is that meeting attendance is voluntary. Those of us who have extensive clean time continue to attend meetings, not out of fear of relapse, but out of habit or our desire to carry the message that our program works. Abstinence is what works for us...our program isn't about substitution or moderation. For us moderation doesn't work. Even Audrey Kishline, founder of Moderation Management (MM), couldn't control her drinking and ended up killing someone while driving drunk. Now, that's the truth.

Why would these things be points of discussion in NA? IMO, they wouldn't and shouldn't. Talking about that stuff isn't going to help the suffering addict looking for a solution to their problem. NA has a 10th Tradition...check it out.

Bottom line - if you want to keep getting high, that's your business. I'm sure there's probably plenty of sites you can find where others like you can talk about all the dope you can use, politics, and rant about how you're so different. But I think it's pretty silly coming to an NA forum seeking cosigners for that madness.

If drugs are the answer..what the hell was the question?

andyaddict

MY MAN!!!! Where have you been?!? Welcome back.

andyaddict

Cool beans

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a

Lily

As a believer and follower of Jesus Christ (who knew no sin but paid the penality for all our sin on the cross over 2000 yrs ago I take offense of this kind of talk.) Sorry, but I will take a stand here, Jesus does not need me to defend him, but because the HS resides inside me I feel compelled to.

You do not need to apologize to me, just please be aware of this, thanks.

juniorisclean

Buddy, let go and let god. the basic text was actually written over 20 years ago.Tthe addicts in recovery TODAY feel diferently then they did back them. Just like in AA the old timer does not like when an addict uses the word ADDICT just the same and addict should adentify him/her self as to the fellowship they are attending. would it make sence for an over eater to go to GA (gambelers anonymous) and identify him/her self as an over eater? The same should apply for aa,na,ca,oa,ga,sa and any other fellowship that ends with A. Out of respect for any particular fellowship WE should identify our self as what we are, wow I see you did your math with the BASIC text. thats good. amazing for someone who sound so anty NA. thats a lot of work. Keep coming. It works. an addict.

Gmoney

Hey Juniorisclean...welcome to SR.

Telling the crusaders (a sponsor & sponsee tag-team group, LOL!) to let it go and let god is like talking to yourself. Yet, there's a lot of good info on this thread.

Thanks for sharing.
G