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in na there is a dillema

Old 10-28-2009, 01:53 PM
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Suggestion

In our home group for the past 19 years, we have simply added to the clarity statement, "Please remember this is only a suggestion and all are welcome here. Thanks for your cooperation in this simple but important matter."
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Old 10-28-2009, 07:17 PM
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What's the point of having the clarity statements if you are just going to ignore them?
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Old 10-29-2009, 06:51 AM
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Originally Posted by tomvlll View Post
What's the point of having the clarity statements if you are just going to ignore them?
I think it's because first of all they are so poorly written, in essence so convoluted they don't make any sense. They are political - not spiritual - of which most people don't care. And finally they imply organization, or unnecessary, meaningless new rules that are baseless to most people getting through the day clean anyway.

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Old 10-29-2009, 01:28 PM
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All I can say is if I was a newcomer and came in off the street to my first meeting and was an "anda" and said it and people made a big deal about it, I wonder if I would be feeling the "attraction" to return to the rooms. Hmmmm
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Old 10-29-2009, 02:15 PM
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IS there a possibility of ego getting the upper hand here?

"Here's what the fellowship has decided, but heck with that ,* I * know BETTER"
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Old 10-29-2009, 06:11 PM
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Originally Posted by tomvlll View Post
IS there a possibility of ego getting the upper hand here?

"Here's what the fellowship has decided, but heck with that ,* I * know BETTER"
It's not simply an "I" thing Tommy, but a vocal minority who have decided to push this ideology ahead even though it was brought before the World Service Conference not once, but twice, and failed miserably both times.

The fellowship decided it didn't want it, yet people continue to dictate it as if it were approved, fellowship opinion.

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Old 10-29-2009, 07:25 PM
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Tom,

Just curious if that was directed towards me. If it was, no my ego is pretty deflated these days...many tears have been shed as of late....as I am a newcomer, as I recently had a relapse after 20 months in the program. I am humbly saying that in the two 2 meetings today I attended, each meeting had a newcomer and both were TERRIFIED to speak. One of the ladies sat in her car and came in late telling us how scared she was. I am simply speaking from my ESH cuz that is all I have today. I am glad nobody said anything to me when I USED to introduce myself as an addict/alcoholic, it was HERE I learned differently.

Believe you me, I do not by any means think I know it all....

I think the newcomer is the most important person at any meeting, that's all. One blurted out a question today during the meeting...and the leader answered her. I hope we were a loving group who reached out to a tearful newcomer as she poured out her story to us.
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Old 10-29-2009, 07:34 PM
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Originally Posted by andyaddict View Post
The fellowship decided it didn't want it, yet people continue to dictate it as if it were approved, fellowship opinion.

a

Really? That's news to me....
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Old 10-29-2009, 10:15 PM
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It's a group autonomy issue...

Originally Posted by Lily View Post
Really? That's news to me....
According to my sources, the fellowship voted down a "blanket" Clarity Statement on two different occasions because they believed each group should have the right to decide for themselves the actual wording of a statement and whether it should be used at all. Sounds to me like they simply didn't agree on the specifics...not that a Clarity Statement was a bad thing or because it forced anyone to speak a specific way. IMO, the fellowship/groups didn't want anyone dictating how they conducted their meetings...Tradition 4 stuff, ya know?

I am glad nobody said anything to me when I USED to introduce myself as an addict/alcoholic, it was HERE I learned differently.
Contrary to the experience of some, your experience mirrors what happens daily in groups that have a Clarity Statement in their formats. IMO, a lot of members don't make a big deal out of it...some learn soon, some learn later.

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Old 10-30-2009, 12:21 PM
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Anyone is welcome

Originally Posted by tiburon88 View Post
If they identify themselves as "alcoholics" they need to be escorted out of the meeting by the 2 biggest members.

I hope you don't mean this. At the meetings I attend, I don't care how people identify themselves, just so long as they stay and get the message that they don't have to pick up ANY substance just for today. The substances we used were just our preferences. Recovery is from the disease, not from any one substance. I personally think the clarity statement (which is not NAWS approved literature) is something that can be used between sponsors and sponsees to help identify the disease and the similarities we all have. However, it can also make people feel very uncomfortable. My boyfriend was in AA for 12 years before we met. When he started going to NA meetings with me, he didn't feel comfortable to share if the meeting read the Clarity Statement. I told him it was fine to identify himself as an Alcoholic, because he is. He got his recovery in AA and considered himself sober. I said the issue is with people who "straddle the fence" and say "addict/alcoholic" because that implies two diseases. We had quite an interesting discussion. Before this, I never even thought about it, because I used NA language from the get-go.

Newcomers fresh out of treatment are taught to say "clean & sober and addict/alcoholic." I spoke at a treatment center and the moderator went around the room and asked people to identify themselves and say whether they were an addict, an alcoholic or both. When he left the room and I started my share, I began with "In NA, we focus on the disease of addiction, not on any particular substance. Even if your substance of choice is alcohol, you are welcome, because alcohol is a drug." The last thing I'd want to do is make someone feel unwelcome by how they identify themselves. If the only meeting around were an AA meeting and I needed a meeting, I'd go and want to feel that I could identify myself as an addict and be welcome.

Beyond how I identify myself, my shares focus on feelings (not drugalogs), so anyone can identify. It's when we put the emphasis on the substance rather than on recovery that we see the differences. Live, let live, and love.
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Old 10-30-2009, 12:34 PM
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My first introduction to identifying differently...

Originally Posted by Lily View Post
All I can say is if I was a newcomer and came in off the street to my first meeting and was an "anda" and said it and people made a big deal about it, I wonder if I would be feeling the "attraction" to return to the rooms. Hmmmm
When I was in my 28-day treatment program, I attended an in-house AA meeting (it was the only meeting that day). I identified myself with 7 days clean as an addict. Bunches of heads whipped around and I swear glared at me. Someone said, "Well then you shouldn't speak, because this is an AA meeting. If you're not an alcoholic, you should just listen." I was instantly turned off, freaked out, and felt less than/different than, etc. I don't ever want to make anyone in an NA meeting feel like that.

Sometimes when people continue to come back and identify themselves as "hope-to-die dope fiends" or "addict/alcoholics," etc., I've lovingly taken them aside after a meeting and just said, "I'm curious; why don't you feel comfortable simply identifying as an addict?" Sometimes this throws them for a loop and gives them pause. Sometimes their answer indicates confusion with the program. But it never embarrasses them or makes them feel unwelcome.
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Old 10-30-2009, 03:11 PM
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I think the main reason people "lovingly taken others aside" is so that the rest of the group don't see how self-righteous and grandiose they're being to the newcomer.

Eh, but I could be wrong.

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Old 11-20-2009, 05:46 AM
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WOW! It has been years since I have seen this kind of fear of " those people ". Isn't strange that this arguement has been passed one addict to another for decades only to arise and keep us from our primary purpose once again. It is based is a fear that you or anyone else can destroy what God has bulit. Any look into the words of Jimmy K or Bill W and one will see that the the traditionas are indeed the "ties that bind us together". If we use ANY tradition to pull each other apart by placing undue restrictions on each other, what good are they? Rule 62 applies to all fellowships and all people, Do not take yourself so damn seriously. We did not build NA God did.

Since some are being so long winded by cut and pasting , let me tell you a story about myself: My saying is that " NA saved my ass but AA saved my life" . Meaning that the first 5 years I was clean I spent it in NA. However, I got so sick and tired of the Tradition Nazi/Service Junkies belittling my service work that I left! Not easily, not without due process but I left! Angry, depressed, suicidal, I found HOPE in AA where they simply let me be myself. I could be Clean and Sober! I could be a needle packin' dope fiend on a bad day. Indeed it was the " ties that bind us together"! Like the story of the Titanic and the life boats, each person MUSt get out of the boat into the cold water. Then in and attempt to save the most we MUST get back into the water so other s can get in the boat. AA was my life boat when NA slammed the Traditional Door in my face! Today, I have 18 years CLEAN & SOBER! I attend both NA & AA. I speak at Both NA & AA. There is no difference except in the little minds of little people who have their whole identiy wrapped up in service work! Get over yourselves and remember you didn't build it and you can't destory it - It's God's ! Since that time I have traveled with some of the most Traditionally Expereinced People in both fellowships. I have spoke on traditionas are various conventions and in some areas even done the Area traditons Workshops. All of which I take great pride in being that I can NOW let other people be themselves when the need arises. Thinking, chosing as many chose only brings pain and misery where there should be love and compassion. No tradition violation should ever be brought up in public or as due course of a meeting. Violations should be mentioned WITHOUT anger or impunity. No one should ever be shamed or belittled simply because WE do not share your opinion. BTW - it is just an opinion. In a organized debate each argument about any violation can be disputed in the name of UNITY!
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Old 11-20-2009, 05:54 AM
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Oh, BTW, my time line matches the time line of the introduction of the so-called NA Clarity Statement. The arguments over this statement, the never ending group conscience were indeed what sent this addict/alcoholic out the door. No unity, just rules, " Rule Number 62 - Don't take yourself so damn serious "
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Old 11-20-2009, 06:37 AM
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autonomous adjective


1 self-governing; independent; subject to its own laws only
2 not subject to control from outside; independent
3 existing and functioning as an independent organism




Tradition 4: Each group should be autonomous except in matters affecting other groups or A.A. as a whole. Each 12 step group has complete freedom to decide for itself the program content of its meetings and the topics that will be discussed. The group can decide if the meeting will be opened or closed and when and where the meeting will be held. Each group can decide to change its meeting format and has complete authority to spend its funds as needed. The group can also decide how it wishes to open and close its meetings. Some groups close with a prayer, while others have a moment of silence. In these matters, each group has total freedom. It is entirely up to the membership of that individual group. But the second part of this tradition reminds each group that it has a responsibility also to the worldwide fellowship. By adhering to the traditions and principals of its program, each group can assure that it will not stray too far away from the program's basic
tenets.
_______________________________________

With these concepts in mind, let us look more closely at Tradition 4. The first sentence of Tradition 4 guarantees each A.A. group local autonomy. With respect to its own affairs, the group may make any decisions, adopt any attitudes that it likes. No over-all or intergroup authority should challenge this primary privilege. We feel this ought to be so, even though the group might sometimes act with complete indifference to our tradition. For example, an A.A. group could, if it wished, hire a paid preacher and support him out of the proceeds of a group night club. Though such an absurd procedure would be miles outside our tradition, the group's "right to be wrong" would be held inviolate. We are sure that each group can be granted, and safely granted, these most extreme privileges. We know that our familiar process of trial and error would summarily eliminate both the preacher and the night club. Those severe growing pains which invariably follow any radical departure from A.A. tradition can be absolutely relied upon to bring an erring group back into line. An A.A. group need not be coerced by any human government over and above its own members. Their own experience, plus A.A. opinion in surrounding groups, plus God's prompting in their group conscience would be sufficient. Much travail has already taught us this. Hence we may confidently say to each group,"You should be responsible to no other authority than your own conscience" Bill W. March/48


Self-determination, the autonomy of the individual, asserts itself in the right to race his automobile, to handle his power tools, to buy a gun, to communicate to mass audiences his opinion, no matter how ignorant, how aggressive, it may be.” Herbert Marcuse

“To depend on God alone is our true autonomy.” anonymous

The idea that men are created free and equal is both true and misleading: men are created different; they lose their social freedom and their individual autonomy in seeking to become like each other.” David Riesman
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Old 11-20-2009, 07:15 AM
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Imagine this... take a group conscience and if the majority "hates" it get rid of it.

For the record we don't read it in my homegroup - not all meetings do.
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Old 11-20-2009, 07:35 AM
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Contempt prior to investigation

This quote first appeared in a story in the First Edition of Alcoholics Anonymous on page 380. The quote began the story "An Artist's Concept":

"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which can not fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance-that principle is contempt prior to investigation."-- HERBERT SPENCER

The story was dropped from subsequent editions and the quote was moved to appear at the end of Appendix II called "Spiritual Experience". This would be on page 570 in the Third Edition

Spencer was a very widely known English philosopher, scientist, theologin during the 1800's. He was also among the creators of the field of sociology. He was among the greatest minds of Victorian England.


Who then would you believe?
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Old 11-20-2009, 07:58 AM
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I don't know what this has to do with NA and NA traditions and literature.

Love,
KJ
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Old 11-20-2009, 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by kj3880 View Post
I don't know what this has to do with NA and NA traditions and literature.

Love,
KJ


"Willie go round' in circles...Willie fly high like a bird up in the sky." - Billy Preston (LOL!!)

Imagine this... take a group conscience and if the majority "hates" it get rid of it. For the record we don't read it in my homegroup - not all meetings do.
I can imagine it! I can also imagine the reverse. We read it at my home group and almost every other group in my area does as well.
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Old 11-20-2009, 04:05 PM
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no groups in our area read a clarity statement....however in the next area north in the capitol city areas they read it...and read it at their area convention(s) too.
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