Locking newcomers out.

[namommy]

Last night was my homegroups group conscious meeting. After the meeting I went outside, and there were 2 newcomers there waiting for their rides (homegroup members) I said it's cold out here, why didn't you just wait inside?

The Answer " 'M' told us we weren't allowed to sit inside during the group conscious meeting because this isn't our homegroup, and he locked the door"

My head nearly flew off of my shoulders I was so angry. I approached him about it (as nicely as I could manage at the time) and he said he told them that "In his opinion..it wasn't a good idea..." Then he said his sponsor told him that is how it is. He has over 2 years clean, and I also know his sponsor and he wouldn't say that. I told him that we don't turn anyone away for any reason. We have nothing to hide, and perhaps they could learn something. He just kept it up, that it was his opinion. I told him that we give people our EXPERIENCE, not our OPINIONS. Opinions kill, and if you haven't experienced something for yourself, you can't just assume you would feel or react a certain way.

I called and left a message for his sponsor, to talk to him about this, I just feel that when newcomers are being turned away, this is something that needs to be addressed. Does anyone else have any suggestions on how to approach this situation? I would really appreciate any help I can get.

[Gooch]

newcomers or no.. I've never been asked/told pr heard that I couldn't sit in and observe any group conscience anywhere.. Maybe "M" doesn't realize that not being able to vote at a different group conscience isn't the same as not being able to observe. THis guy sure does sound a little confused.

[namommy]

He has some major control issues. He admits that he wanted to be in control of when the business meetings started, so he would take all of the books outside with him and go around to the side of the building and smoke a cigarette until he felt it was time to start then he would come in with the minutes and treasures record.

It is even more difficult since we butt heads alot, and sometimes he will make a point of doing things that he knows I don't approve of and let me know that is why he did it. I know in this situation, I need to step back so a newcomer doesn't get hurt, but it needs to be dealt with. I am at a loss here.

[Shakur T.]

Originally Posted by namommy

My head nearly flew off of my shoulders I was so angry. I approached him about it (as nicely as I could manage at the time) and he said he told them that "In his opinion..it wasn't a good idea..." Then he said his sponsor told him that is how it is. He has over 2 years clean, and I also know his sponsor and he wouldn't say that. I told him that we don't turn anyone away for any reason. We have nothing to hide, and perhaps they could learn something. He just kept it up, that it was his opinion. I told him that we give people our EXPERIENCE, not our OPINIONS. Opinions kill, and if you haven't experienced something for yourself, you can't just assume you would feel or react a certain way.

Good job. I think you delt with it jus fine...

How come there are certin HG members that we just can't seem to work with?
I try and examine MY feelings and practice principles before MY personality.

That stuff "M" did was off the wall and you "helped" him see that (hopefully).
That's all you can do (till the next time )

[ohsotired]

hi all- i identified with this thread, specifically becuase i recently chanegd home groups, i am still in my 90 and 90. i wanted to rejoin the group, but they wouldn't let me, because my sponsor isn't in that group, i can understand if it's a group conscience issue, however, i had been a member of that group for almost the entire year i have been coming to aa, and so had my sponsor, she has recently moved out of the area. everyone has complaints about thier home group- i wasn't aware that one person could turn me away like that, i almost would expect thier to be a vote on it at the next business meeting... anyway, i just wanted to share that identified with what i read here, as i often do. thanks

[godsonmyside]

Thats like saying everyone is welcome to attend and turn around and say your not welcome here. Sounds too much like active addiction to me!! "M" needs to really read and study and apply the 2nd Tradition and maybe 11 and 12 too.
I don't understand why these things happen, but they do. Sounds like you did ok, hopefully the problem will be squashed and life will carry on. Alls we can do is what we do.
Todd J.

[BrokenSpirit]

Ummmm, correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't newcomers, or any NA members encouraged to sit in at Group Consciense?? This helps them to see if MAYBE this is the group they want to pick as THEIR new home group!! [i]At my old home group, we even let other people sit in from other home groups, who had no intention of switching over. It helped us to gain perspective in areas where we could improve. For example, there was a time where a lot of our own home group members were getting too disruptive during the meeting, and some of them pointed it out to us. We need to hear stuff like that. But the most important thing was for the newcomer to get to know us, and decide if they want to join us.

And Laurie, maybe you should point out to this person that it should not be HIS decision, that it is a GROUP decision. Unless you already did that??

And Ohsotired.... is that the way AA works?? You have to join the same home group as your sponsor?? Did I read that right? You said your sponsor moved out of the area.... what happens then? I'm just trying to understand. I've only been to NA, I've never been to an AA meeting, so I don't know how much it differs from NA.

[Imagine]

Two sayings come to mind that "M" might need to hear; "Keep Coming Back" and "Opinions are like s everybody has got one, but we all don't go around showing it off."

[Aa_vark]

Hi namommy, and everyone -

Im aaron, a grateful recovering addict.

this is from Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions, page 189.

Tradition three (long form)

"our membership ought to include all who suffer from alcoholism. Hence we may refuse none who wish to recover. Nor ought AA membership ever depend upon money or CONFORMITY. Any 2 or three alcoholics gathered together for sobriety may call themselves an AA group, provided that, as a group, they have no other affiliation. "

Im just sick hearing about this, and also about ohsotired situation.

recovery acording to the twelve steps, and traditions is not exclusive. It is available to everyone. It must be. We cannot turn away anyone seeking our help, ever.

[namommy]

As I posted in my 1st post, I left a message for his sponsor, and he called me back today. When all this happened, I didn't know who his sponsor was, but when I found out who, I KNEW that he would NEVER had said those things. I have known his sponsor for alot of years, and we were homegroup members together for a lot of years. He is also a part of my support network, as well as his wife.

Any way, when I told him, he was more than a little upset that 'M' would do this, then say that he told him to. So, he said he is going to address this issue as well as a few other calls he got about this same person. He is also our Area UNITY Chair, and recently turned someone away from a function. They wanted to know if they could come even if they didn't have any money, and he told them "No, you have enough to buy cigarettes, you can pay your way or leave." Unbelievable!!

OsT, You are a member when you say you are. Not when someone else tells you that you can be. What happens to people with long distance sponsors? Are they supposed to go without a homegroup? Or, what if you chose to keep who your sponsor is anonymous? I know a few people who do that.

I feel both of these problems can be addressed with the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd traditions, and by reading 'The Symbol' in the basic text. Which, when I suggested that 'M' read these, he blatantly refused. Hopefully his sponsor will get through to him.

Either that, or I may chose to practice some Baseball Bat Recovery and just BEAT it into his head. lol

[Gooch]

Get somebody on A & E to ask him if he's spiritual enough to attend the next event.. lol

Sorry I have a very sarcastic bent.

[servicejunkie]

Man, my head about flew off my shoulders just reading that post NAmommy!!! "Opinions are like assholes, everyones got one" HAHAHA, that cliche is probably what I would have said in that situation, at least if I let me emotions get the best of me. His actions seem to go against The 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 5th, and 12th traditions among others and several concepts. I think you handled that situation better than I would have, but I don't know unless I was in it myself. Its definately a great idea to talk to his sponsor to see what kind of guidance he is getting. Service should ALWAYS be inclusive and NEVER exclusive. It is unfortunate to hear about both of these obvious ego/control issues in meetings. Many of us have these issues in recovery, I guess it just speaks about where they are in their programs (if they have one). I know I get in the mindset sometimes that I expect things to go the way I want them to in meetings or in service commitees. Were all addicts here and we are just trying to learn something different than what we've been doing our whole lives. NaMommy, we must call each other on their sh*t!! If he is working steps, hopefully he will be open to your guidance. Traditions are here to protect us from our opinions!! Mike L

[namommy]

I woke up this morning and felt bad about my last post. The other situation had nothing to do with the one I was dealing with, and I just feel that I crossed the line into gossip. As wrong as his actions are, that doesn't give me the right to spread gossip. I should have just kept it to the problem that was affecting me.

I apologize for that, and I need to really turn that defect over.

I am having some feelings about tomorrow though. Our area is having a spiritual learning day starting at 9AM unil 1AM. Breakfast, Speaker Jam, and a dance. He is the chair of the committee that is hosting the event. I know myself and my defects pretty well, and I don't want to ruin the day for myself by being to worried about him turning anyone away. I know the committee is struggling for help, and I thought about volunteering to sit at the door, but it wouldn't be self-less, I would have definite motives behind it. I am just not sure what to do.

[Gooch]

Ok .. so your not perfect.. someone elses behaviour elicits a response from us and when we aren't careful we can focus on the personality rather than the principle.

It's a constant challenge for me not to explain away or resent somone's twist, skew, or lack of principle simply from being familiar with their personality.

There are some valid principles here and "M" is probably trying to address some as well.

Ever have one of those decades where everytime you tried to make a point the words just came out wrong.. We come from a wide variety of experiences and environments that affect our communication process.


There is a member in our area who has taught me a lot about being self supporting.

By extrapolation the fellowship can only be self supporting if it's members are.

When we host an event, it costs us money. Since i have been a member, i've seen times when our codependant generosity has left us struggling financially. There is a fine line between helping another adddict and carrying the mess or turning our backs on the unnaceptable.

When you posted about "M's" comment about having money for cigarettes but not making a donation you reminded me of my friend... ( maybe no small coincidence .. his initial is "M" also)

I was in an ASC meeting and we were discussing how best to finance a regional convention. Our area wanted to host it and organize it as the region had sort of let it slip through the cracks.

There was talk about bake sales and car washes... one member wanted to "loan" our area the seed money. These answers didn't seem to fall in line with our traditions. I commented that "if God wants us to host a convention, then the money will show up"
"M" replied that "God will move a mountain but you better be ready to grab the shovel".

I was so angry that day. Because I failed to see that what I said was as flammatory to "M" as what he replied was to me. The solution was as simple as adding our sentences together. "If God wants us to host a convention, or move a mountain and we are ready to work together to do the footwork and bring a shovel, all things are possible."

Many of the attendees at our conventions, dances, dinners, bowling parties etc. are not ready to forgo feeding their secondary manifestations of this disease, to help NA remain fully self supporting. Are we doing them a disservice by letting these addicts know that while we understand their fiscal difficulty, They are more than welcome to lend a hand. It's one thing to not have a dollar for the basket at a meeting, and another to show up at a dance showing off your new car, leather, footgear, or jewlery
and not be able to donate a couple bucks, or grab a broom.

Many who attend group consciences may not be ready to get involved with service, they do it because their ride stayed, or they want "hang around" for whatever their motivation is. I've been embarrassed into motivation a few times and later thanked my higher power for the directness of the member who didn't coddle or baby me.

While it's my personal opinion that no one should be "barred" from involvement in service, it's also my experience that there are times when a lot more could get accomplished if some were. ( I'm sure that I've complicated matters on one or more occasions by throwing my 2 cents in where it wasn't relative or even necessary).

I'm almost positive that "M's intentions are not completely self motivated nor selfishly misaligned against the principles.

Our diversity when applied through the unity of the priciples embodied in the steps and traditions is our strength.

Sometimes I learn a lot about myself by mentally walking across the room and looking at me. Sometimes I learn a lot about the traditions by looking at the other guy's application of them.

[namommy]

Gooch,

I myself have learned more about the traditions by breaking them, then I did by reading the book.

I guess I can't fully blame 'M' for some things, there are other avenues that can be taken. I am going to let his sponsor deal with the meeting issue. There is nothing I can do about tomorrow, especially since I know I won't be able to be there all day. But, there is something that someone can do about future events, or at least one.

Our area is very well off financially. We have paid off our bills, and made several large donations to region, and are still sitting on a lot of cash. There is no reason why we can't host a 'free' event. Other than the fact that is was suggested, and 'M' refused. However, if a MOTION comes to area that a free event be held, and the motion passes, then he has to do it. My motives, I can afford it, I don't care. But, we have ALOT of recovery houses around here, and most of the residents work for minimum wage and can barely cover the rent. They are left out of alot of our functions. I would like to see them be able to attend something so they can see that recovery can be fun.

I am the first to admit, that the defect of manipulation is sometimes alive and well in me. I don't know if it is ALWAYS a defect. I know that 'M', his sponsees, and his 'sweetie' won't let the motion go through in our homegroup, so I will ask my husband to put it through in his. If it is meant to be, it will pass.

Thanks for the insight Gooch.

[Mogqua]

Newcomers should always be allowed at these meetings as well as any member, regardless of it being their "homegroup" or not. Since discussions usually start with opinions and the process of gaining a "well informed group conscious" is the goal, even newcomers or other "outside" members are of the greatest value. Plus newcomers get a feel for "being a part of" quickly

Now it is my opinion, based on certain experiences, that limiting the motions and voting to homegroup and other regular attending members of that meeting helps retain group autonomy by not allowing other neighboring members with a resentment act as "ringers" to force their conformity on others (these attempts happen often in our district). But the concepts say that we must wait to hear EVERY voice before a vote and that it is better to table certain votes until that participation and a level a being "well informed" is reached.

The concepts remind us that we are to avoid those that only take orders or those that go to the other extreme by dictating us.

You can try to explain the Traditions and Concepts to this person, as it seems that you are trying to do. These people can be our greatest teachers in showing us examples of what NOT to do.

With a continuing problem that won't change, and considering that the bottom line is that one person wants exclusivity and the rest want to be inclusive as much as possible, the next necessary step is to vote this person out of control and back into service. Offer this person the coffee position perhaps. But someone MUST be ready and willing to sit in the chair now vacated by the group conscious.

"What a wonderful opportunity to grow!"
"Control should be an Olympic event"
"Comfort the disturbed, disturb the too comfortable!"
~ Things my sponsor would say!

Good Luck
Be Well!

'M'
(no, not the same one!)

[namommy]

Hey Mogqua,

I wish it were as simple as just giving him the coffee position. We have been trying to take control of the coffee away from him for months now. He won't give it up. If we tell a newer member to be there 1/2 hour before the meeting to start the coffee, then he shows up and hour before. We have tried having someone come an hour before only to find out that he showed up and hour and a half before. Dude has some major control issues. If someone shows up at the same time as him, and he makes the coffee while they set up chairs, he goes behind them and re-arranges the chairs. He's a trip!

Anyway, I chose not to go to the event today. I woke up this AM feeling a little WOUND too tight. Then when I realized I only had $3.00 until my husband got home from work I really when nutzo. I started playing out scenarios in my head like: "if he says this, I'll say that" or "If he does this, I'll do that" and knowing he has control issues I thought I'll just go over the table and SHOW him what a control issue IS. That North Philly street mentality came right to the surface.

Instead, I prayed about it, meditated on it, went to the morning meeting, talked to members of my support group, and shared about it without giving specifics, and everyone agreed that it was best for me to just not go. I wasn't going there with good intentions, only to cause harm. I don't need to be doing that today.

Thanks again everyone for supporting me through this. I am sure it is not over, and I have to deal with him again soon. Tuesday night at least. So I may be back.