View Poll Results: Which spiritual principle is excercised when using a clarity statement?
Acceptance
12
32.43%
Patience
1
2.70%
Tolerance
3
8.11%
None of the Above
21
56.76%
Voters: 37. You may not vote on this poll
Clarity Statements (approved version)
Member
Join Date: May 2005
Location: worcester ma.
Posts: 59
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As any given NA community matures in its understanding of its own principles (particularly Step One), an interesting fact emerges. The AA perspective, with its alcohol oriented language, and the NA approach, with its clear need to shift the focus off the specific drug, don't mix very well. When we try to mix them, we find that we have the same problem as AA had with us all along!
When our members identify as "addicts and alcoholics" or talk about "sobriety" and living "clean and sober" the clarity of the NA message is blurred.,,NA,,BASIC TEXT,5th EDITION,,,,PG.189,,DRINKING ALCOHOL,,PG.174,,ALCOHOLICS,,PG.130,,I DRANK,DROPPED,,SNORTED,,SMOKED,,AND SNIFFED,,PG.133,,DRUGS AND ALCOHOL,,PG.129,VODKA,PG.150,131,GETTING LOADED,,PG.135,ADDICTS AND ALCOHOLICS,,CLEAN AND DRY,,HAPPY AND SOBER,,PG,141,,,USEING PILLS,,PG 127,,JUNKIES,DOPEFIENDS,PILL HEADS,,COKEFREAKS,,,,,PG.133,,JUNKIE AND A JUICER,,HERE IS A GOOD ONE,,PG. 162,,I BECAME SOBER AND CLEAN
WELL FOLKS IT LOOKS LIKE ,,,NA IS STATEING THAT THE NA TEXT 5th edition. IS BLURRING THE NA MESSAGE,,,,,IMAGINE THAT ,,,NA IS STATEING THAT THE NA TEXT IS BLURRING THE NA MESSAGE,,TALK ABOUT A MIXED MESSAGE///////
The implication in this language is that there are two diseases; that one drug is separate from the pack, so that a separate set of terms is needed when discussing it. At first glance this seems minor, but our experience clearly shows that the full impact of the NA message is crippled by this subtle semantic confusion.
THE BOOK IT WORKS HOW AND WHY,,TRAD.8 PG 188,,WHAT IS NARCOTICS ANONYMOUS,AFTER ALL,BUT A FELLOWSHIP OF ADDICTS FREELY SHAREING WITH ONE ANOTHER THE SIMPLE MESSAGE OF THEIR OWN EXPERIENCE,,ACCORDING TO THIS ARTICLE, NA IS STATEING, WE DO NOT SHARE OUR OWN EXPERIENCE,IT SUGGESTS WE ALTER OUR OWN EXPERIENCE.TRADITION 9 ,,PG.193,WE OUGHT NOT CREATE A GOVERNING HIERACHY,A TOP DOWN BUREAUCRACY DICTATING TO OUR GROUPS AND MEMBERS,,DEF.OF DICTATE,TRANSCRIBE,,DEF.OF TRANSCRIBE,TO REWRITE,,ACCORDING TO THIS ARTICLE NA IS TRYING TO DICTATE/TRANSCRIBE,,OUR OWN EXPERIENCE.,/MESSAGE ,TRAD.10.PG.198,EVEN OUR LEADERS ARE ONLY TRUSTED SERVANTS,WITH NO POWER TO TELL INDIVIDUAL MEMBERS WHAT TO DO THINK OR SAY,NA MEMBERS ARE ENCOURAGED TO THINK FOR THEMSELVES,TO DEVELOPE THIER OWN OPINIANS,AND TO EXPRESS THOSE OPINIONS AS THEY SEE FIT.,ACCORDING TO THIS ARTICLE NA HAS THE POWER TO TELL US WHAT TO DO ,THINK AND SAY,,TRAD.11 PG.203,CLEARLY OUR TRADITIONS ARE JUST AS CONCERNED WITH OUR PUBLIC RELATIONS AS THEY ARE WITH OUR INTERNAL RELATIONS,,PG 208,EACH OF US HAS OUR OWN LIFE,OUR OWN WORDS ,AND OUR OWN STORY,ALL ADDING DIMENSIONH AND COLOR TO THE MESSAGE OF OUR FELLOWSHIP,,ACCORDING TO THIS ARTICLE NA IS SUGGESTING TO US THAT WE SHOULD NOT FEEL FREE TO USE OUR OWN WORDS,,WHEN TRADITION 11 SUGGESTS WE SHOULD FEEL FREE TO USE OUR OWN WORDS ,,,,,,,,THE NA TRADITIONS ARE ABOUT FREEDOM, AND NOT CONTROL,,ACCORDING TO THIS ARTICLE,,NA IS FREE TO GOVERN,,THE DEFINITION OF GOVERN,,TO CONTROL,,
HUGGS BRUCE
WORLD SERVICE BOARD OF TRUSTEES BULLETIN #13
Some thoughts regarding our
relationship to Alcoholics Anonymous
This article was generated by the World Service Board of Trustees in November 1985 in response to the needs of the fellowship. It represents the views of the board of trustees at the time of writingSome thoughts regarding our
relationship to Alcoholics Anonymous
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As any given NA community matures in its understanding of its own principles (particularly Step One), an interesting fact emerges. The AA perspective, with its alcohol oriented language, and the NA approach, with its clear need to shift the focus off the specific drug, don't mix very well. When we try to mix them, we find that we have the same problem as AA had with us all along!
When our members identify as "addicts and alcoholics" or talk about "sobriety" and living "clean and sober" the clarity of the NA message is blurred.,,NA,,BASIC TEXT,5th EDITION,,,,PG.189,,DRINKING ALCOHOL,,PG.174,,ALCOHOLICS,,PG.130,,I DRANK,DROPPED,,SNORTED,,SMOKED,,AND SNIFFED,,PG.133,,DRUGS AND ALCOHOL,,PG.129,VODKA,PG.150,131,GETTING LOADED,,PG.135,ADDICTS AND ALCOHOLICS,,CLEAN AND DRY,,HAPPY AND SOBER,,PG,141,,,USEING PILLS,,PG 127,,JUNKIES,DOPEFIENDS,PILL HEADS,,COKEFREAKS,,,,,PG.133,,JUNKIE AND A JUICER,,HERE IS A GOOD ONE,,PG. 162,,I BECAME SOBER AND CLEAN
WELL FOLKS IT LOOKS LIKE ,,,NA IS STATEING THAT THE NA TEXT 5th edition. IS BLURRING THE NA MESSAGE,,,,,IMAGINE THAT ,,,NA IS STATEING THAT THE NA TEXT IS BLURRING THE NA MESSAGE,,TALK ABOUT A MIXED MESSAGE///////
The implication in this language is that there are two diseases; that one drug is separate from the pack, so that a separate set of terms is needed when discussing it. At first glance this seems minor, but our experience clearly shows that the full impact of the NA message is crippled by this subtle semantic confusion.
THE BOOK IT WORKS HOW AND WHY,,TRAD.8 PG 188,,WHAT IS NARCOTICS ANONYMOUS,AFTER ALL,BUT A FELLOWSHIP OF ADDICTS FREELY SHAREING WITH ONE ANOTHER THE SIMPLE MESSAGE OF THEIR OWN EXPERIENCE,,ACCORDING TO THIS ARTICLE, NA IS STATEING, WE DO NOT SHARE OUR OWN EXPERIENCE,IT SUGGESTS WE ALTER OUR OWN EXPERIENCE.TRADITION 9 ,,PG.193,WE OUGHT NOT CREATE A GOVERNING HIERACHY,A TOP DOWN BUREAUCRACY DICTATING TO OUR GROUPS AND MEMBERS,,DEF.OF DICTATE,TRANSCRIBE,,DEF.OF TRANSCRIBE,TO REWRITE,,ACCORDING TO THIS ARTICLE NA IS TRYING TO DICTATE/TRANSCRIBE,,OUR OWN EXPERIENCE.,/MESSAGE ,TRAD.10.PG.198,EVEN OUR LEADERS ARE ONLY TRUSTED SERVANTS,WITH NO POWER TO TELL INDIVIDUAL MEMBERS WHAT TO DO THINK OR SAY,NA MEMBERS ARE ENCOURAGED TO THINK FOR THEMSELVES,TO DEVELOPE THIER OWN OPINIANS,AND TO EXPRESS THOSE OPINIONS AS THEY SEE FIT.,ACCORDING TO THIS ARTICLE NA HAS THE POWER TO TELL US WHAT TO DO ,THINK AND SAY,,TRAD.11 PG.203,CLEARLY OUR TRADITIONS ARE JUST AS CONCERNED WITH OUR PUBLIC RELATIONS AS THEY ARE WITH OUR INTERNAL RELATIONS,,PG 208,EACH OF US HAS OUR OWN LIFE,OUR OWN WORDS ,AND OUR OWN STORY,ALL ADDING DIMENSIONH AND COLOR TO THE MESSAGE OF OUR FELLOWSHIP,,ACCORDING TO THIS ARTICLE NA IS SUGGESTING TO US THAT WE SHOULD NOT FEEL FREE TO USE OUR OWN WORDS,,WHEN TRADITION 11 SUGGESTS WE SHOULD FEEL FREE TO USE OUR OWN WORDS ,,,,,,,,THE NA TRADITIONS ARE ABOUT FREEDOM, AND NOT CONTROL,,ACCORDING TO THIS ARTICLE,,NA IS FREE TO GOVERN,,THE DEFINITION OF GOVERN,,TO CONTROL,,
HUGGS BRUCE
Member
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: out there...
Posts: 2,653
I really think this contradiction that your so obsessed with is a result of the human factor.
You are overlooking something though... The article about our relationship to AA doesn't mandate, dictate, or enforce a specific manner of sharing or words we have to use when sharing.
Have you been personally approached by someone and threatened to be kicked out of NA? If that did happen you could always get a coffeepot and start a new meeting.
You've reiterated this point relentlessly.. What would your solution be?
Please be specific.
You are overlooking something though... The article about our relationship to AA doesn't mandate, dictate, or enforce a specific manner of sharing or words we have to use when sharing.
Have you been personally approached by someone and threatened to be kicked out of NA? If that did happen you could always get a coffeepot and start a new meeting.
You've reiterated this point relentlessly.. What would your solution be?
Please be specific.
Vision of Hope
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Living on This side of the green!!
Posts: 1,057
Remember tat the first 103 pages of the basic Text contain the message, the rest of the text contains personal stories, NAWS is coming out with a 6th Edition an most of those will be out of the book.
Besides, not too many argue the point that the statement doesn't belong in meetings.
Todd J.
P.S. Have you posted to help the newcomer or posted to a problem topic other than your own threads? Just a question!
Besides, not too many argue the point that the statement doesn't belong in meetings.
Todd J.
P.S. Have you posted to help the newcomer or posted to a problem topic other than your own threads? Just a question!
Member
Join Date: May 2005
Location: worcester ma.
Posts: 59
gooch,,,,,,,,you wrote,,,,,You are overlooking something though... The article about our relationship to AA doesn't mandate, dictate, or enforce a specific manner of sharing or words we have to use when sharing
yes gooch,,,,,you are right,,,,,,,,thats why i said,,this article,,, suggests,, that na is free to mandate ,,dictate,,or enforce a specific manner of shareing or words we have to use when shareing,,,when in fact as you have just learnrd gooch,,the na traditions suggest the oppisite,,na is not free to mandate,dictate,or enforce a spicific manor of shareing or words we have to use when shareing,,,,,,
suggest is the key word you failed to pick up on,,,,,,,,,,huggs bruce
yes gooch,,,,,you are right,,,,,,,,thats why i said,,this article,,, suggests,, that na is free to mandate ,,dictate,,or enforce a specific manner of shareing or words we have to use when shareing,,,when in fact as you have just learnrd gooch,,the na traditions suggest the oppisite,,na is not free to mandate,dictate,or enforce a spicific manor of shareing or words we have to use when shareing,,,,,,
suggest is the key word you failed to pick up on,,,,,,,,,,huggs bruce
Member
Join Date: May 2005
Location: worcester ma.
Posts: 59
todd you wrote,,,,,,
P.S. Have you posted to help the newcomer or posted to a problem topic other than your own threads? Just a question!
yes todd,,this topic will help the new comer see for themselves that na traditions offer freedom and not control,,and allso to give the na purist a few na tradition lessons,,,that the na traditions are not about control,,but are about freedom,,allthow my experiance on this matter is very troblesome,,few na purists are teachable,,most seem to ignor fact,,that the na traditions express freedom,,and not rules/control,,but a good thing comes about in na tradition debates,,the truth,,its in black and white,,and addicts will learn,,when someone in na trys to alter/dictate/transcribe/govern/their own experiance,,they can say ,,with knowlege,,and meaning,,,no sir,, the na traditions suggest that i should feel free to share my own experiance,, huggs bruce
P.S. Have you posted to help the newcomer or posted to a problem topic other than your own threads? Just a question!
yes todd,,this topic will help the new comer see for themselves that na traditions offer freedom and not control,,and allso to give the na purist a few na tradition lessons,,,that the na traditions are not about control,,but are about freedom,,allthow my experiance on this matter is very troblesome,,few na purists are teachable,,most seem to ignor fact,,that the na traditions express freedom,,and not rules/control,,but a good thing comes about in na tradition debates,,the truth,,its in black and white,,and addicts will learn,,when someone in na trys to alter/dictate/transcribe/govern/their own experiance,,they can say ,,with knowlege,,and meaning,,,no sir,, the na traditions suggest that i should feel free to share my own experiance,, huggs bruce
No expectations!
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 8,732
Tsk! Tsk! I thought (hoped) this thread had died with the Argueholism forum. I haven't read the last "bout" of posts, I admit, but I just don't get the point of arguing this issue HERE. That's just not what this forum is about to me.
Love and
s,
Eddie
Love and
s,Eddie
No expectations!
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 8,732
Anytime, Gooch. LOL.
It's ironic, though. Yesterday, I walked into a meeting a little late and when I asked if they needed me to read anything (very small meeting), I was handed an identity statement to read.
Love and hugs,
Eddie
It's ironic, though. Yesterday, I walked into a meeting a little late and when I asked if they needed me to read anything (very small meeting), I was handed an identity statement to read.
Love and hugs,
Eddie
Member
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Big Spring Texas
Posts: 2
A meeting
I am planning on going to my first NA meeting tonight. It seems like for the last rhree days just the mere thought of what an addict I have become drives me to tears and I so do not want to lose emotion there. I really don't even want to talk there. It is just the only place I can think to start this road to recovery. Any suggestions?
No expectations!
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 8,732
Try going to an "open" meeting first. You don't have to talk if you don't want to; you can just listen if you like at first. But if you do talk and get emotional, a meeting is the perfect place to be! Let us know how it goes, OK?
Love ands,
Eddie
Love and
s,Eddie
Makijah
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Central WA state
Posts: 4
clarity statements in NA
Hi, I am an AA member sober almost 15 years. I am also an addict clean for the same amount of time. I got sober (and clean) through Alcoholics Anonymous, because that is what was available in my community in 1990. We had no NA meetings here when I was dying from my disease, unfortunately, otherwise I would've attended both freely, because thankfully by then I knew I needed all the help I could get, and I was no longer separating drugs. See, for years, I knew I was an alcoholic and had the disease of alcoholism. It was fairly easy for me to identify with other alcoholics due to the nature of my drinking: I am a chronic alcoholic and was born with that disease. Which of course makes me an addict according to NA's definition. The first time I got sober (age 21), I knew I had to quit drinking, but thought I could still use drugs, and never in a million years would've gone to NA. The only reason I went to AA was they didn't tell me what to do, or that I wasn't really sober when I openly shared that I was smoking a littel dope between the meetings, but I was still "sober". I will be forever grateful to those wise AA members, who were practicing the principles of the program by not telling me how to work my program or exerting their will, judgement, and condemnation onto me, the unknowing and unsuspecting newcomer, because that would've turned me off and away from AA and other 12 step programs for good I'm afraid.
Because I was not judged at all, but rather welcomed right where I was at, and told to "keep coming back" (this felt like unconditional love and acceptance to me, I was not rejected for anything, the language I used, the way I identified myself, my refusal to 'work a program', etc,), this is what kept me coming back when I really needed it and was actually ready. When my disease had me licked and I was ready to be honest with myself, openminded as only the dying can be, and willing to go to any lengths for my sobriety (and life)............when that miracle occurred, and I do believe this is a miracle when any addict or alcoholic reaches the moment of surrendur in his/her life, I thank God, that my Higher Power had made it so that there had been a powerful seed planted in my heart, and I knew there was a solution and a place to go with people like me who would accept me no matter what.
Unconditional love and acceptance in AA is what saved my life, and I recieved that from the fellowship of A.A. That is my experience.
After years of sobriety, and a new life, which includes all 3 legacies of the AA program, recovery, unity, and service............I had the opportunity to attend NA for a couple of years, and help get a new group started. NA has grown and doing well here now. I never considered myself a member, because I am an AA member, and have a strong program already.
Buy, I so injoyed the meetings, fellowship, and especially the literature and sharing on recovery and always learning more. I have to share with you though, that although I understand NA's clarity statement, and liken it to AA's Singleness of Purpose Statement, I was not ever comfortable being told how to identify myself in a meeting. My immediate response to that (rebelliousness is my immediate response at being told what to do, as is true with many others I know like me), was I will identify myself however I want to and the way that I need to. Eventually, I started to not identify myself as an alcoholic (which is extremely important to me), just out of respect and conformity, because that is what NA asks, but I wanted to share that feeling, which was very strong, about not feeling right about it being suggested on how I identify myself in recovery, period. Then again, this is not how I was taught.
Makijah
Because I was not judged at all, but rather welcomed right where I was at, and told to "keep coming back" (this felt like unconditional love and acceptance to me, I was not rejected for anything, the language I used, the way I identified myself, my refusal to 'work a program', etc,), this is what kept me coming back when I really needed it and was actually ready. When my disease had me licked and I was ready to be honest with myself, openminded as only the dying can be, and willing to go to any lengths for my sobriety (and life)............when that miracle occurred, and I do believe this is a miracle when any addict or alcoholic reaches the moment of surrendur in his/her life, I thank God, that my Higher Power had made it so that there had been a powerful seed planted in my heart, and I knew there was a solution and a place to go with people like me who would accept me no matter what.
Unconditional love and acceptance in AA is what saved my life, and I recieved that from the fellowship of A.A. That is my experience.
After years of sobriety, and a new life, which includes all 3 legacies of the AA program, recovery, unity, and service............I had the opportunity to attend NA for a couple of years, and help get a new group started. NA has grown and doing well here now. I never considered myself a member, because I am an AA member, and have a strong program already.
Buy, I so injoyed the meetings, fellowship, and especially the literature and sharing on recovery and always learning more. I have to share with you though, that although I understand NA's clarity statement, and liken it to AA's Singleness of Purpose Statement, I was not ever comfortable being told how to identify myself in a meeting. My immediate response to that (rebelliousness is my immediate response at being told what to do, as is true with many others I know like me), was I will identify myself however I want to and the way that I need to. Eventually, I started to not identify myself as an alcoholic (which is extremely important to me), just out of respect and conformity, because that is what NA asks, but I wanted to share that feeling, which was very strong, about not feeling right about it being suggested on how I identify myself in recovery, period. Then again, this is not how I was taught.
Makijah
I'm an addict.
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Hyde Park, NY
Posts: 1,201
Welcome to SR makijah,
Congrats on your sobriety time. It is wonderful that you found AA and it works for you.
It is my experience that I have the similar, but oppisite feelings. NA works for me because I am an addict with the disease of addiction. I used to partake some of my drugs in liquid form, but that is neither here nor there, I never found the amount of identification in AA that I have found in NA. I know that if I had been told it was okay for me to smoke dope when I got clean, I would be back out there doing the dope I really wanted to do. THere is no easier, softer way for me. NA teaches us that a drug is a drug and that the drug use is just a symptom of our problem, which is the disease of addiction.
NA is a program based on coplete abstinance and without that being pounded into my stubborn head, I know I wouldn't be clean today....one is too many a thousand is never enough.
I am very greatful for AA, bill w pioneered this 12 step thing which allowed Jimmy K to adapt it for people like me and it has saved my life.
As far as the clarity statement goes I believe it is very important to the preservation of NA's message and unity, One Program, One Disease. NA's message is that any addict can stop using, lose the desire, and find a new way to live. Our message is one of hope and our promise is freedom from active addiction.
I love narcotics anonymous and I try to carry the message to the addicts still suffering.
If someone doesn't fell comfortable comming to NA b/c they identify themselves as an alcoholic, then maybe they would find more identification in AA. I don't attend AA anymore b/c I feel it is absolutely nessacary for my own recovery to identify myself as an addict. I don't feel comfortable saying, "My name is Blake and I'm an alcoholic" so I don't go........on the other hand, if I was in desperate need of a meeting and NA wasn't around, I'd deffinately hit an AA one.
I can deffinately see how some people might get offended by the clarity statement, I used to get pissed in an AA meeting when they would read the blue card.....I have since grown to understand that they are just protecting their message and traditions, the same goes for NA.
I'm gonna stop rambleing now.
Congrats on your sobriety time. It is wonderful that you found AA and it works for you.
It is my experience that I have the similar, but oppisite feelings. NA works for me because I am an addict with the disease of addiction. I used to partake some of my drugs in liquid form, but that is neither here nor there, I never found the amount of identification in AA that I have found in NA. I know that if I had been told it was okay for me to smoke dope when I got clean, I would be back out there doing the dope I really wanted to do. THere is no easier, softer way for me. NA teaches us that a drug is a drug and that the drug use is just a symptom of our problem, which is the disease of addiction.
NA is a program based on coplete abstinance and without that being pounded into my stubborn head, I know I wouldn't be clean today....one is too many a thousand is never enough.
I am very greatful for AA, bill w pioneered this 12 step thing which allowed Jimmy K to adapt it for people like me and it has saved my life.
As far as the clarity statement goes I believe it is very important to the preservation of NA's message and unity, One Program, One Disease. NA's message is that any addict can stop using, lose the desire, and find a new way to live. Our message is one of hope and our promise is freedom from active addiction.
I love narcotics anonymous and I try to carry the message to the addicts still suffering.
If someone doesn't fell comfortable comming to NA b/c they identify themselves as an alcoholic, then maybe they would find more identification in AA. I don't attend AA anymore b/c I feel it is absolutely nessacary for my own recovery to identify myself as an addict. I don't feel comfortable saying, "My name is Blake and I'm an alcoholic" so I don't go........on the other hand, if I was in desperate need of a meeting and NA wasn't around, I'd deffinately hit an AA one.
I can deffinately see how some people might get offended by the clarity statement, I used to get pissed in an AA meeting when they would read the blue card.....I have since grown to understand that they are just protecting their message and traditions, the same goes for NA.
I'm gonna stop rambleing now.
Member
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: out there...
Posts: 2,653
I like to identify myself as an addict.
And if we could only remember the simpleness of purpose.... to get and give help, maybe we wouldn't all get so twisted about things.
The answer for me is in the fifth chapter....
And if we could only remember the simpleness of purpose.... to get and give help, maybe we wouldn't all get so twisted about things.
The answer for me is in the fifth chapter....
..come to an understanding of the program for yourself....
Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Leaving Sparta
Posts: 2,912
Hi Makijah, welcome to SR.
I really enjoyed reading your post.
Like everybody else here I bear an intense love for AA and Narctics Anonymous to whom I owe my life.
I have participated in very passionate debates about NA's clarity statement both in my home group and on discussion forums online.
I was one of those in favour of the clarity statement which was eventually approproved by our group concience and incorporated into our meeting format.
However the division it caused in my beloved NA fellowship was one that pained me and since then uncertaintainty has creeped in where the clarity statement is concerned.
Where once I was hellfire bent and bound in defense of the clarity statement.....now I am not so sure.......
There seems to be an even split down the middle where the clarity statement is concerned (I could be wrong).......but coming to realize how much, addicts objected to the clarity statement has caused me to rethink my stand......
.......the NA literature warns us against "internal controversies that could destroy us...."
I have no idea what WSO's official stand is on the subject nowadays....but I believe there was a time when they were in favour of it (clarity statement)......
.....however it is in my own humble view that when all the debating is over that we allow the group concience to decide what they want for their own meeting......our spiritual condition shouldl determine how we respond to the decision........
Honestly despite my doubts, if I were asked today to cast my vote I would hesitantly vote yes.......despite what my heart tells me I cannot deny the logic behind the clarity statement......For far too long I have always felt myself "other than" and "apart from" the natural order of things....."junkie", "dope fiend", "weed head" was just another indicator of my "terminal uniqueness" and my desire to be "apart from"
In addition, the clarity statement allows a sense of conformity which I can identify with. It allows for me an opportunity to allow some order in my life where before there was confusion and chaos.....for me NA represents the opposite of what my life used to be.....
The "clarity statement" is still in effect at our meetings.
It is a "suggested" rule for sharing that nobody enforces.....however I no longer squirm uncomfortably in my seat when addicts refer to themselves as "cokehead".....I smile now because I know that the wonderful diversity of our fellowship is one of the reasons why I love it so much.
How we refer to ourselves is not what should unify us but rather our singleness of purpose in wanting to stay clean and help other suffering addicts....
I really enjoyed reading your post.
Like everybody else here I bear an intense love for AA and Narctics Anonymous to whom I owe my life.
I have participated in very passionate debates about NA's clarity statement both in my home group and on discussion forums online.
I was one of those in favour of the clarity statement which was eventually approproved by our group concience and incorporated into our meeting format.
However the division it caused in my beloved NA fellowship was one that pained me and since then uncertaintainty has creeped in where the clarity statement is concerned.
Where once I was hellfire bent and bound in defense of the clarity statement.....now I am not so sure.......
There seems to be an even split down the middle where the clarity statement is concerned (I could be wrong).......but coming to realize how much, addicts objected to the clarity statement has caused me to rethink my stand......
.......the NA literature warns us against "internal controversies that could destroy us...."
I have no idea what WSO's official stand is on the subject nowadays....but I believe there was a time when they were in favour of it (clarity statement)......
.....however it is in my own humble view that when all the debating is over that we allow the group concience to decide what they want for their own meeting......our spiritual condition shouldl determine how we respond to the decision........
Honestly despite my doubts, if I were asked today to cast my vote I would hesitantly vote yes.......despite what my heart tells me I cannot deny the logic behind the clarity statement......For far too long I have always felt myself "other than" and "apart from" the natural order of things....."junkie", "dope fiend", "weed head" was just another indicator of my "terminal uniqueness" and my desire to be "apart from"
In addition, the clarity statement allows a sense of conformity which I can identify with. It allows for me an opportunity to allow some order in my life where before there was confusion and chaos.....for me NA represents the opposite of what my life used to be.....
The "clarity statement" is still in effect at our meetings.
It is a "suggested" rule for sharing that nobody enforces.....however I no longer squirm uncomfortably in my seat when addicts refer to themselves as "cokehead".....I smile now because I know that the wonderful diversity of our fellowship is one of the reasons why I love it so much.
How we refer to ourselves is not what should unify us but rather our singleness of purpose in wanting to stay clean and help other suffering addicts....
Vision of Hope
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Living on This side of the green!!
Posts: 1,057
It is not NA "Approved" literature, and it does dictate what you are supposed to say. Make sense to me that the person reading this statement identifies and a "Cross-addicted alcoholic, because they are in rehab and that is what they are taught, doesn't even matter that they don't have any crosses. LOL
Point being that members are trying to tell others how to recover instead of teaching them. Its our jobs ads members to help the newcomer out and show them, let them have faith in us. instead while smoking a cig. outside after the meeting with our buddies making fun of the guy who doesn't know how to share how we share.
The clarity statement just goes to show how lazy we get at the group level. I believe it is intimdating and dictates the wrong impression to the newer members. We need to understand that everyone is at a different rate of recovery at different times and that is why we have such a beautiful Fellowship and Program. Jimmy K. at 30 years identified himself ans an Addict/Alcoholic, and people today make fun of that too.
That old beetles tune, Live and Let Live.
Peace,
Todd J.
Point being that members are trying to tell others how to recover instead of teaching them. Its our jobs ads members to help the newcomer out and show them, let them have faith in us. instead while smoking a cig. outside after the meeting with our buddies making fun of the guy who doesn't know how to share how we share.
The clarity statement just goes to show how lazy we get at the group level. I believe it is intimdating and dictates the wrong impression to the newer members. We need to understand that everyone is at a different rate of recovery at different times and that is why we have such a beautiful Fellowship and Program. Jimmy K. at 30 years identified himself ans an Addict/Alcoholic, and people today make fun of that too.
That old beetles tune, Live and Let Live.
Peace,
Todd J.
Certified NA Counselor
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Newport Beach Ca., US
Posts: 458
As of yet, over all of these years, no one has come forward to disprove or discredit the positions of this original post. I will say, however, that there has been a lot of red herring (leads away from the position), circular reasoning (going round and round), and appeal to false authority (the fabricated, unapproved statement or bulletin), yet nothing really invalidates any of the positions stated on either of the supposed 10 Traditions of which an implemented clarity statement seems to contradict.
For those who really want to understand and differentiate an commonsensical truth from a mystical fallacy, try to understand the meaning within.
Take for example the word "identify." Have any of you that choose to use that word really looked it up in a dictionary to better understand its grammatical use? I did, and then cross-referenced it with what I believe our collective interpretation of the word "anonymity" is in Tradition Twelve. They don't go well together at all, that is, if you want to use the sense (definition) of identification that means disclosing a distinctive characteristic or trait.
If any of you were to pursue this any further once finding a problem in the forgoing, take into consideration a different sense of the word "identify" or "identification." This same dictionary (any dictionary) will provide a definition that exemplifies "association or understanding" as a synonym (or different sense) to identify. Hmmm do you think we could actually relate to each other? in a sense actually identifying WITH each other and not AS each other?
(psst - hint: try actually replacing the word "associate" instead of "label" wherever you read the word "identify" [or identification] in the Basic Text and see if my throwed-off logic could actually make sense) (psst – another hint: the words “identify” and “identification” are found in the introduction and the chapter We Do Recover)
Hmmmm
Then comes the word "dilemma." The use of this word makes absolutely no logical sense at all. lol (two paths with no appealing outcome) lol
andyaddict
Los Angeles
For those who really want to understand and differentiate an commonsensical truth from a mystical fallacy, try to understand the meaning within.
Take for example the word "identify." Have any of you that choose to use that word really looked it up in a dictionary to better understand its grammatical use? I did, and then cross-referenced it with what I believe our collective interpretation of the word "anonymity" is in Tradition Twelve. They don't go well together at all, that is, if you want to use the sense (definition) of identification that means disclosing a distinctive characteristic or trait.
If any of you were to pursue this any further once finding a problem in the forgoing, take into consideration a different sense of the word "identify" or "identification." This same dictionary (any dictionary) will provide a definition that exemplifies "association or understanding" as a synonym (or different sense) to identify. Hmmm do you think we could actually relate to each other? in a sense actually identifying WITH each other and not AS each other?
(psst - hint: try actually replacing the word "associate" instead of "label" wherever you read the word "identify" [or identification] in the Basic Text and see if my throwed-off logic could actually make sense) (psst – another hint: the words “identify” and “identification” are found in the introduction and the chapter We Do Recover)
Hmmmm
Then comes the word "dilemma." The use of this word makes absolutely no logical sense at all. lol (two paths with no appealing outcome) lol
andyaddict
Los Angeles
I'm an addict.
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Hyde Park, NY
Posts: 1,201
Here is the deffinition of Identify:
·den·ti·fy ( P ) Pronunciation Key (-dnt-f)
v. i·den·ti·fied, i·den·ti·fy·ing, i·den·ti·fies
v. tr.
To establish the identity of.
To ascertain the origin, nature, or definitive characteristics of.
Biology. To determine the taxonomic classification of (an organism).
To consider as identical or united; equate.
To associate or affiliate (oneself) closely with a person or group.
v. intr.
To establish an identification with another or others.
Identification:
i·den·ti·fi·ca·tion (-dnt-f-kshn)
n.
A person's association with the qualities, characteristics, or views of another person or group.
An unconscious process by which a person transfers the response appropriate to a particular person or group to a different person or group.
Anonymity:
anonymity
n : the state of being anonymous [syn: namelessness]
Anonymous:
Anonymous
adj 1: having no known name or identity or known source; "anonymous authors"; "anonymous donors"; "an anonymous gift" [syn: anon.] [ant: onymous] 2: not known or lacking marked individuality; "brown anonymous houses"; "anonymous bureaucrats in the Civil Service"
I don't see how Identification and anonyity are at odds. In fact I believe they complement each other nicely, common identification promotes anonymity and brings the focus on our similarities rather than our differences.
As far as the original post, I feel it is a matter of oppinion that clarity statements are against the traditions:
Tradition one- I believe it is in our common welfare to keep our message clear, our problem has nothing to do with the type of dope we used, but with the disease we have. That is what sets NA apart from other fellowships and is why I love Narcotics Anonymous.
Tradition Two- The only way a clarity statement can be adopted into a meeting format is through a group conscience decision. Spiritual principles are never in confilct with the traditions as you said, so if a loving god is expressed in our group conscience, why would the clarity statement be so widely accepted if it is unspiritual and against traditions?
Tradition Three- I have never seen anyone thrown out of a meeting because the identified themselves differently than "addict" the only requirement is a desire to stop using, every thing else is a suggestion, includeing clarity statements.
Tradition Four- Each group is autonomous, no one forces a clarity statement on any group, and I have yet to see how a clarity statement is against a tradition so that wouldn't void it's application.
Tradition Five- How does a clarity statement not do this? Isn't our message that any addict can stop using, lose the desire to use and find a new way of life? Isn't our promise freedom from active addiction? I believe that the clarity promotes our message that our problem goes beyond the symptoms of our disease.
Tradition Six- The clarity statement has nothing to do with any "related facillity or outside enterprise"
Tradition nine- Clarity statements are not dictated to the groups by any service boards or comittees, they come from a group conscience decision, in the basic text on tradition nine it states tradition 2 again, the final authority lies with the group, if the group approves the clarity statement, group conscience has spoken.
Tradition ten- NA has no opinion on outside issues.....Clarity statement being read as part of a groups format is not an outside issue. NA as a whole doesn't dictate that a group has to have or can't have a clarity statement. As far as the "sober alcoholic" NA does have an opinion on that, if he/she has a desire to stop using, they are a member.
Tradition 11- This tradition deals with our PI and goes to say that we attract people into our fellowship by living as examples. How does the clarity statement negate this? When I got here I saw addicts with multiple years of recovery and that is what kept me comming back, I was attracted to NA b/c I could identify with these people's struggle and I wanted what they had, and the cool thing is that I never had to ask them what kind of dope they were on and they never asked me, because it doesn't matter. We all have the disease of addiction and the clarity statement helps to keep that upfront.
Tradition 12- Again I believe that common identification as "addicts" promotes anonymity. When we identify as addicts it helps us (especially us newcommers) put aside differences so we can focus on the similarities. We are all addicts with a desire to stop using.
I don't believe that clarity statements are there to promote controversy. They simply try to keep the NA message clear. When it all comes down to it, it is up to an individual group to determine if a clarity statement is appropriate for that group and the only requirement for membership is a desire to stop using.
I think clarity statements promote honesty, openmindedness, willingness and acceptance.
THen again I could be wrong, I only have 9 months clean and I'm no tradition guru.
·den·ti·fy ( P ) Pronunciation Key (-dnt-f)
v. i·den·ti·fied, i·den·ti·fy·ing, i·den·ti·fies
v. tr.
To establish the identity of.
To ascertain the origin, nature, or definitive characteristics of.
Biology. To determine the taxonomic classification of (an organism).
To consider as identical or united; equate.
To associate or affiliate (oneself) closely with a person or group.
v. intr.
To establish an identification with another or others.
Identification:
i·den·ti·fi·ca·tion (-dnt-f-kshn)
n.
A person's association with the qualities, characteristics, or views of another person or group.
An unconscious process by which a person transfers the response appropriate to a particular person or group to a different person or group.
Anonymity:
anonymity
n : the state of being anonymous [syn: namelessness]
Anonymous:
Anonymous
adj 1: having no known name or identity or known source; "anonymous authors"; "anonymous donors"; "an anonymous gift" [syn: anon.] [ant: onymous] 2: not known or lacking marked individuality; "brown anonymous houses"; "anonymous bureaucrats in the Civil Service"
I don't see how Identification and anonyity are at odds. In fact I believe they complement each other nicely, common identification promotes anonymity and brings the focus on our similarities rather than our differences.
As far as the original post, I feel it is a matter of oppinion that clarity statements are against the traditions:
Tradition one- I believe it is in our common welfare to keep our message clear, our problem has nothing to do with the type of dope we used, but with the disease we have. That is what sets NA apart from other fellowships and is why I love Narcotics Anonymous.
Tradition Two- The only way a clarity statement can be adopted into a meeting format is through a group conscience decision. Spiritual principles are never in confilct with the traditions as you said, so if a loving god is expressed in our group conscience, why would the clarity statement be so widely accepted if it is unspiritual and against traditions?
Tradition Three- I have never seen anyone thrown out of a meeting because the identified themselves differently than "addict" the only requirement is a desire to stop using, every thing else is a suggestion, includeing clarity statements.
Tradition Four- Each group is autonomous, no one forces a clarity statement on any group, and I have yet to see how a clarity statement is against a tradition so that wouldn't void it's application.
Tradition Five- How does a clarity statement not do this? Isn't our message that any addict can stop using, lose the desire to use and find a new way of life? Isn't our promise freedom from active addiction? I believe that the clarity promotes our message that our problem goes beyond the symptoms of our disease.
Tradition Six- The clarity statement has nothing to do with any "related facillity or outside enterprise"
Tradition nine- Clarity statements are not dictated to the groups by any service boards or comittees, they come from a group conscience decision, in the basic text on tradition nine it states tradition 2 again, the final authority lies with the group, if the group approves the clarity statement, group conscience has spoken.
Tradition ten- NA has no opinion on outside issues.....Clarity statement being read as part of a groups format is not an outside issue. NA as a whole doesn't dictate that a group has to have or can't have a clarity statement. As far as the "sober alcoholic" NA does have an opinion on that, if he/she has a desire to stop using, they are a member.
Tradition 11- This tradition deals with our PI and goes to say that we attract people into our fellowship by living as examples. How does the clarity statement negate this? When I got here I saw addicts with multiple years of recovery and that is what kept me comming back, I was attracted to NA b/c I could identify with these people's struggle and I wanted what they had, and the cool thing is that I never had to ask them what kind of dope they were on and they never asked me, because it doesn't matter. We all have the disease of addiction and the clarity statement helps to keep that upfront.
Tradition 12- Again I believe that common identification as "addicts" promotes anonymity. When we identify as addicts it helps us (especially us newcommers) put aside differences so we can focus on the similarities. We are all addicts with a desire to stop using.
I don't believe that clarity statements are there to promote controversy. They simply try to keep the NA message clear. When it all comes down to it, it is up to an individual group to determine if a clarity statement is appropriate for that group and the only requirement for membership is a desire to stop using.
I think clarity statements promote honesty, openmindedness, willingness and acceptance.
THen again I could be wrong, I only have 9 months clean and I'm no tradition guru.
Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Leaving Sparta
Posts: 2,912
Originally Posted by andyaddict
As of yet, over all of these years, no one has come forward to disprove or discredit the positions of this original post.
Los Angeles
Los Angeles
.....perhaps because it cannot be done.
......however popular the opposition to the clarity statement might be at this time it still only remins other peoples opinion of how they would like things to be....there is nothing to prove or disprove......
Certified NA Counselor
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Newport Beach Ca., US
Posts: 458
Originally Posted by Blake
Here is the deffinition of Identify:
To establish the identity of.
Anonymous:
having no known name or identity
I don't see how Identification and anonyity are at odds.
THen again I could be wrong, I only have 9 months clean and I'm no tradition guru.
To establish the identity of.
Anonymous:
having no known name or identity
I don't see how Identification and anonyity are at odds.
THen again I could be wrong, I only have 9 months clean and I'm no tradition guru.
aa
la
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