Is religion a dirty word?

[Threshold]

I know that many people have had very harsh experiences in their lives connected with religion.

Heck, I am one of those people. Somehow that hasn't turned me against the idea of religion across the board. I follow a "unorganized" religion, and that practice is an asset in my life.

NA/AA are described as spiritual NOT religious programs. And after going to about one meeting, and still after attending over 100 meetings...it's pretty nearly the same as going to a religious svc...especially like the services of that one that most people who seem angry with religion seem most angry with.

I'm not supposed to say that out loud, lest I scare someone away, but has NO ONE else noticed that?

What makes a religion a religion? I guess is my real question. Is it that everyone agrees on what constitutes a Higher Power? Or is it the group and teachings and format that the people choose to follow?

I hear many people say "I believe in what Christ taught, but I don't need to go to church and mouth words...I don't believe in religion" fair enough, but then that implies that it's not the belief, but the practices that make up "religion".

In 12 step, we have a book, principles, approved literature, meeting format, trusted servants, things we all say together, sharing of testimonies...yet repeatedly, loudly proclaim it is NOT a religious program.

Now, I don't have an issue with the idea of religion, so it's not a big deal to me if 12 step is or isn't. and since from the moment I walked in the door I was told that I must be willing to do anything to attain clean living...I assume that accepting that I have joined a religion, with an undefined HP, might be one of the things I have to do. Maybe mouthing the mantra "spiritual NOT religious" is one of the things I have to be willing to do as well.

I do believe that 12 step is a religion, it has all the earmarks. I also see why a point is continually made that it's NOT a religion, so as not to scare any touchy sorts away.

Like I said, the religion I participate in is unorganized, it has no particular god either, yet it is a religion still.

It's not nearly as churchy as any 12 step meeting I've attended.

I'm just musing how honesty, open mindedness and willingness play into all this. Like, it's ok to apply those in certain areas, but then there's a wink, wink, nudge, nudge thing going on in this other area.

Like "you must be fearlessly honest in every area, except you also must proclaim loudly and repeatedly that this is NOT anything like a religion"

Is there something shameful in being a religion or LIKE a religion? Is this just semantics, or is there some critical difference I'm missing?

[BillyPilgrim]

It works for some, it doesnt for others. It isnt for me, but I am not going to knock what might rescue someone else. I wouldnt worry about it, just concentrate on getting sober

[Sugah]

I regard the program (steps) as more a philosophy than a religion -- just as Buddhism is a philosophy rather than a religion (though some may attempt to make it into a religion).

Peace & Love,
Sugah

[Taking5]

Here are some ways an AA meeting is TOTALLY different than a church or a religious service:

* No singing/choir/organist
* there are AA meetings every day, several times a day
* No designated speaker (except at speaker meetings)
* the speaker (if it is a speaker meeting) doesn't wear robes/clothing isn't subject to AA approval
* you are allowed, even encouraged, to share (when was the last time you did that at Sunday Services?)
* You can cuss like a sailor on shore leave if you like
* you can start a new AA meeting and AA will never bother you. Start a new Sunday Baptist service and watch the lawyers show up.
* AA meetings create their own agenda (group conscience). Do that as a church service and your congregation gets excommunicated (not sure if that is the right word).
* there are no membership rolls in AA, but churches keep them meticulously.
* AA doesn't care which god you worship, or for that matter if you are polytheist or atheist
* AA's big book openly admits to not having a monopoly on recovery. Find me a church that claims to not have a monopoly on God. They may exist, but I haven't seen one yet.
* If you want to get married, you don't get pressure to do it in AA.
* AA's 12 steps are "suggestions" not "commandments".

I could write a book about this, but you get my point.

[Threshold]

well dgillz, I Do get your point, but most of what you point out...there are religions and congregations that DO those things you say religions don't do or aren't allowed to do. I've belonged to some and attended the svcs of others.

But my point isn't to prove 12 step is a religion, so I have no interest in going point by point.

My question pretty much is what the title of the thread is, is religion a dirty word? And, if so...why?

[emmanuel2012]

ligio- in latin means "to connect",
religion is therefore "to reconnect."
This concept of "reconnecting" in spirituality is older than words themselves, I am guessing. It is not a dirty word. Of course some religions have blood on their hands in the history books, but thats another story.

the 12 step system leaves a ton of room for integration with any of our major world religions, but it doesn't require any other dogma. Atheists and Agnostics, for example, can use the 12 steps for recovery. To some, the 12 steps is a religion, because they've made it that way. But as mentioned it leaves a lot of room to integrate into whatever you believe spiritually. Faith without works is dead - AA is entirely based on the experiences of people who have recovered, not which churches or temples they belong to

[soberlicious]

Religion is not a dirty word to me, although I think historically some dirty things have been done in the name of religion.

I have no problem with others embracing a religion, but it's not my path.

[BillyPilgrim]

Originally Posted by Threshold

My question pretty much is what the title of the thread is, is religion a dirty word? And, if so...why?

Yes and no is the answer to that, it's a word
"When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less."
Just google Santorum to see how people can make words dirty.
Why ask?

[Terminally Unique]

Originally Posted by Threshold

NA/AA are described as spiritual NOT religious programs. And after going to about one meeting, and still after attending over 100 meetings...it's pretty nearly the same as going to a religious svc...especially like the services of that one that most people who seem angry with religion seem most angry with.

I'm not supposed to say that out loud, lest I scare someone away, but has NO ONE else noticed that?

Oh, I've certainly noticed. 12-Steppism is a religion, unequivocally and without a shadow of a doubt. Spirituality is simply what AA calls its particular theology, just as Christians call their theology Christianity. Even a ten-year old can crack open the Big Book and see that AA is religious. There are formalized rituals (steps), prayers, appeals for character repairs from "HP", etc, and a unique moral code whereby drinking is not a moral issue.

The "Higher Power" cannot be anything at all, either, because the steps themselves prescribe certain traits to said HP. The "HP" needs to be willing and able to restore people to sanity (Step 2), it needs to be willing and able to accept people's will into its care (Step 3), it needs to be willing and able to remove defects of character (Step 6), it needs to be receptive to prayer, have a will, and be willing and able to establish conscious contact with humans (Step 11). You can't have "conscious contact" without a conscience, so it must have a conscience.

Drunkenness has caused many to have quite the falling out with traditional religion, so there are members who have a beef with traditional religions, which consider drunkenness, in and of itself, sin. In 12-Step theology, drinking is not sin, and the fearless moral inventory never contains "drinking" by itself, because drinking is not considered morally wrong. It can't, because within that framework, drinking is not a moral issue at all, but rather, "but a symptom" (BB, Pg. 64). It is therefore exempt from the moral inventory. This makes the 12-Step religion more appealing to some people than those "other" religions.

[Terminally Unique]

It's worth noting that AA theology also has its own notions of recovery heaven, recovery hell, and recovery purgatory.

Heaven = Serenity, The Promises

Hell = Going Back Out

Purgatory = The Dry Drunk

[Threshold]

Originally Posted by BillyPilgrim

Why ask?

Curious to hear how other people in the program think about it.

[keepfinding2]

Yeah I thought the same thing. It was quite creepy.

I think AA turned me athiest.

[BillyPilgrim]

Originally Posted by Threshold

Curious to hear how other people in the program think about it.

Fair enough. Personally I think they do a good job. As religions go they generally are good at non judgement (which equates to forgiveness). They havent as yet gone out torturing and killing people. That probably moves them away from most religions, certainly the major Abrahamite ones.
They are in a sense like the sally army, in that they realise what the problem is , and go in and sort it out.
There is some belief involved, but it gets the job done, and even though I dont follow the AA path, it was a meeting that made me realise the extent of my problems
Without a doubt they do good, and improve peoples life, and if that is a definition of a religion , then they are, and it aint a dirty word

[Luckyv2]

You will get as many different answers as there are people to answer.

It is better to look for similarities than focusing on the differences.

All Spiritual Aspects point to Love and Service

[Threshold]

Originally Posted by Chance

You will get as many different answers as there are people to answer.

Which is why I asked the question.

[jojoba]

We go to meetings to give praise to God. I personally believe that the Bill W was divinely inspired to write the BB.

If people want to interpret that as a religion, so be it.

[Db1105]

First of all NA and AA are two different programs, secondly, just because you think they are religious doen't make them so, and thirdly, each program has no opinion on the issueso whatever each individual believes is right.

[Gavinandnikki]

At every AA meeting I've attended (more than 100) The Lord Prayer is said at the end. Is that not both spiritual and traditionally religious?
PJ

[Gavinandnikki]

At every AA meeting I've attended (more than 100) The Lords Prayer is said at the end. Is that not both spiritual and traditionally religious?
PJ

[BillyPilgrim]

It seems wrong, I understood you should say the serenity prayer. I also wonder how you would attract someone of no or other faith, My understanding is that AA is to help the suffering alcoholic, there are a pile of churches that can balm your soul.
Also, I disagree with jojoba, we go to meetings to stay sober, nowhere in the 12 steps or the principles of AA does it say to give praise to God.
and back to Threshold, yes it has occurred to me that the 12 steps are the commandments of the AA "religion"
UK is a more secular place than US, I would be uncomfortable if AA was hijacked by any religion
(although many meetings are in churches that I attend, they are strictly secular, and people are asked to contain anything they say to things pertaining to their experience of alcoholism)