Not OK

[huntsober]

We got an area down here that has come off the chain. Seems as if they have made it ok to carry out behavior that was once not ok.

It started out as poker after meetings. Then led to closing one of the Tuesday night NA meetings to have poker at the meeting location. The poker grew to the point that it needed to go to another location. Then came the hookers. While the wifes and girl friends were there smoking cigars the hookers would carry out their behavior.

Then one of the players was carring the hookers home and gets pulled over. Yep...hooker drops her crack pipe in the guys car and he gets charged. Guy has 12 years "clean" now has a charge on his record.

Old timers in the area make it ok to 13 step newcomers. Step work in terms of writting the steps is not being done. Heard one of them explain that just because you relapse you DONT loose your recovery. He said you just trade key tags". Service requirements such as clean time is not important. Lenght of time AROUND the program counts.

Me and my sponsor attempted to talk to one of the ring leaders with 20 years and he has fully justified himself and his sponsees.

The last straw was at our last convention. One of them was selling NA t shirts from their last function (they over ordered). In addition to selling t shirts he was selling lortabs. He explained that a doctor gave them to him and he bought them at a Rx. so whats the problem. His sponsor (20) years reported that there was no problem because everyone works their own program.

I am looked at as a stranger/ I will continue to make my message clear. This type of acting out behavior is NOT OK. Never was and never will be.

I am sure this group of people are only a small section of people in this area. Surely not everyone thinks and feels this way. However some of the people in my area have started going to their functions. I am growing concerned. All I can do is trust the addicts that came before me when they explained to me that NA is a self cleaning program.

I will stay focussed on my program and let go of those I can not control. I will however make my message clear as to what is and what is NOT OK.

Thanks I just need to tell more than just my sponsor.
J

[Missybuns]

yes, please continue to carry a clear message of what is OK and what works....
.... it's pretty obvious that getting busted with crack pipes is defeating any recovery or progress made in the name of recovery is NOT OK, LOL. jeez....

Thank goodness you are there to set a good example.

why we stay,
Missy

[Gmoney]

Joe,

I think many areas go through what I call a "rollercoaster period." When a segment of members get sidetracked into doing all kinds of stuff that really shouldn't be done. I know I stick my neck out by saying "shouldn't" but I mean exactly that - shouldn't.

We had so many addicts going to bars and clubs at one time that a few members of one group decided to buy a bar and invite addicts there. The justification was that they needed somewhere to dance and party. If they had got honest they would've told you that their real intention was to make money off of the fellowship. After a few newer members relapsed on alcohol, attendance at their bar bottomed out and they sold it.

Next it was the energy drink craze. Members would come to the NA dances "hyped" on those drinks and claim it was okay because other addicts drink coffee. Earlier this year two members had strokes and several others developed high blood pressure - and they all attribute it to their energy drink addiction. I've shared many times about how I get energy from eating or sleeping right, and if lack of energy was a big issue for me I'd seek professional help (my doctor, a nutritionist, etc...). Too bad we don't listen until something bad happens to one of us.

Oh yeah...and a while back, it was the hustle phase. Addicts were selling everything from CD's, DVD's, clothing, incense, jewelry, cell phones and cigarettes at our meetings. I don't know what made these folks think it was okay to set up a "flea market" in the parking lots of churches and other public facilities!! It took us to lose several meeting places to change.

And what about the ones who sell dope? They hide their hands, but all it takes is an addict to relapse and return to the rooms to tell us who is doing what!! Just three weeks ago a member's home was raided by the Feds and they found dope. They were selling it out of the back window to the house where they lived with their 4 children! Oh... did I forget to mention that they were on probation and parole for the same offenses? Now the kids are almost homeless..it's sad.

I was labeled "Mr. Goody-Two-shoes" and "super spiritual" because I chose not to get involved and talked against the behavior. I'll continue to speak against the "hip, slick and cool" lifestyles that go along with active addiction. It was the oldtimers that taught me if the dope don't kill you the lifestyle will. Even our literature tells us what works in active addiction doesn't work in recovery.

Keep standing up, Joe. Somebody has to.

G

[kj3880]

So far, it's been my experience in life that people get what they get when they do what they do. NA is no exception. Folks that engage in this type of diseased behavior will reap what they sow. I don't even need to help it along. They'll get the natural consequences of both their good and their bad behavior in God's own time. We all will.

I give the new women some positive, loving attention, so that I can be part of the solution, to try to be the change I want to see in the fellowship. That's all I can do, that and ensuring that when I chair my home group meeting, I do so as a trusted servant in accordance with our traditions. And to show by my actions a good and attractive example.

And I also now make it a point that when one of the newcomer men come to me after I chair a meeting and ask for my phone number, that I don't give it to them, that I instead introduce them to some men that I know will let them call and will be good for them to fellowship with.

Love,
KJ

[Gmoney]

I was just thinking about how we say in the rooms, "You can't deny an addict their pain," and how that applies to so much more than dope. I know I said in my previous post that things "shouldn't" be done..and that's just my personal opinion...yet I understand that some us us have to go through some negativity to get to the positivity - and the mistakes we make are often the foundation for our best growth. I'm just blessed and grateful that I listened when the ones that came before me stood up and shared about what wasn't "okay" to do. I simply did my best to be a part of the solution instead of the problem. Another oldtimer used to say if you see no example, you should be one.

[Wolfchild]

You seem to handling this responsibly and maintaining your own recovery.
It's sad that things like this happen and i hope God will take action soon.
Thank you for standing up for your values & keeping things in perspective.

[REZ]

What can I say? Sounds like a bunch of BS. Hang in there and try to be an example of how to work the program.

[Gmoney]

Step work in terms of writting the steps is not being done. Heard one of them explain that just because you relapse you DONT loose your recovery. He said you just trade key tags".

IMO, that's a major source of the problem.

I know in my area there was a lot of talk at one time about whether writing was needed, and I'm sure we could start an whole new discussion on the merits or drawbacks of writing. But in my experience I've found that the vast majority of members in my area that don't write are the ones who are always in the mess or starting the mess. Just an observation.

I've also heard the junk about not losing recovery with a relapse. I guess that depends on how one defines recovery, but our literature says when we use we lose. I've even heard members who relapsed say that all they lost was their clean date and the experience and knowledge they had isn't lost. In my book knowledge isn't recovery - what I know won't always keep me clean...it's what I do. And when it comes to experience, I'd question how much they actually had if they didn't use the tools we learn to use to stay clean.

But that's just my stuff.

[REZ]

The only steps that explicitly involve writing are the 4th and 8th, but I have found that writing helps with all of the steps. Writing brings my thoughts and feelings into focus and gives them an objective reality (they're on paper) that it hard to deny, downplay, or evade.

[huntsober]

Me and my sponsor agree in that if a relapse happens...there was something in the foundation of your recovery that was not solid. Reservations is what I am talking about. IF these are not discovered and discussed and resolved....problems will arise.

If a relapse happens the person is a NEWCOMER AGAIN. This is a part that many here want to miss. THey want to just be back where they were....not start over. I hated being a newcomer so much that the thought of being one again has kept me clean for a moment in my over 25 years.

It involves starting over from the beginning. 90 and 90, step work, group clean up service work. Listening and not sharing as much all the time. NOT getting into relationships...the whole process. It is important ...it builds the foundation. Just my 2 cents.

[Gmoney]

If a relapse happens the person is a NEWCOMER AGAIN. This is a part that many here want to miss.

I'm glad you brought that up, Joe.

For a couple of years, we had deep discussions on what constitutes being a newcomer. Specifically, it was about newcomer packages for our convention and who qualifies for them. But out of nowhere (so I thought) they came up with this guideline that anyone with 30 days clean or less was a newcomer. And they justified their stance via a misinterpretation of the JFT reading on page 111 (my opinion).

The reading talks about making meeting attendance a priority and for those who "couldn't stay clean" and how important going to meetings is. Yet, it doesn't define the term "newcomer." According to my area's convention committee, I wasn't a newcomer when I came to NA because I had more than 90 days clean when I arrived.

The reading states:

"So we began again. Following our sponsor's suggestion, we made a commitment to attend ninety meetings in ninety days. We identified ourselves as newcomers for our first thirty days so that others could get to know us."

Don't get me wrong here...I totally agree that after a relapse starting over is the appropriate course of action, and the reading supports this. It even supports that we can refer to ourselves as newcomers. What I see as a potential problem for those who routinely relapse is the manipulation that can accompany wearing the label "newcomer."

In my area, addicts who've acquired extensive clean time but return to active addiction are called "repeat offenders." LOL!! I just took on a repeat offender as a sponsee. When he asked me where we were going to start on his step work, I told him:

"From the beginning because you obviously missed something. Something like - no matter what!"

G

[ElegantlyWasted]

Best I can say is stick to your own guns and help your ees as best you can. Can you pull a coup and start an new group elsewhere? Sounds like the result of all this is that the new commers are treated like tools and have less of a chance of making it than if everyone played it straight up.

[ElegantlyWasted]

PS.. I've heard alot of NA people go to AA because of crAp like that.

[huntsober]

Correct... I do it this way. 90 and 90 first. Once that is complete we start the steps. 90 and 90 teachs follow through, commitment, ect. It also clears the chemicals from ones head. The text says if you want what we have to offer and are willing to put the effort to get it THEN you ready. It dont mean one second before or after. It means then.

I got a guy that just asked me to be his sponsor. He has 5 years clean and has never done a 4th/5th step. I have had to explain that I sponsor the way I am sponsored..I know no other way. Step teaching and more importantly the practical application of the use of the steps. He ant got to do no 4th or 5th with me, but he needs to with someone.

I must explain that I did NOT LEARN HOW TO STAY CLEAN.....I was taught. Still today I must never allow my clean time to get in the way of my recovery.

Thanks all for the feedback....J

[meditation]

I've seen what you speak of here on SR. Someone will say they've been clean 8 or 9 months all except for that tiny 2 day binge a month back etc etc. Well in my book they don't have 9 or 9 months clean they have a month. And I don't feel comfortable because they are screaming for help and it seems that we all enable them by not telling them that there is an error in their thinking. They don't have all that clean time. It happens all the time here.
Maybe as a group if we point this out- is the answer or I am not sure how to go about addressing that. I don't like to get into a war online. And my last thing thing to say is is this more common in NA than AA or about the same for people thinking it's okay to do insane things at meetings?

[kj3880]

We have a lady in our area who is prime example of this. She was clean for 18 years, then relapsed for a year. Now she is newly back, and trying, at 3 months clean, to arrange speaking engagements for herself, wanting H&I positions, organizing banquets, etc.

She does a lot of service, but then continually complains bitterly that nobody helps her. In my experience, it's because she is so toxic and bitter that none of the women can stand to be around her. She continually complains about how "newcomers are not respectful and obedient to orders the way that they used to be." She was talking sneakily about me when she said it, I think, because my opinion differed from hers on something. When I told her, "well now that you are a newcomer again, you can set a good example and show us how it's done" she got really angry. I guess I was being a smart-aleck...

Love,
KJ

[Gmoney]

Originally Posted by ElegantlyWasted

Best I can say is stick to your own guns and help your ees as best you can. Can you pull a coup and start an new group elsewhere? Sounds like the result of all this is that the new commers are treated like tools and have less of a chance of making it than if everyone played it straight up.

Can I ask what exactly are you talking about?

I've seen what you speak of here on SR. Someone will say they've been clean 8 or 9 months all except for that tiny 2 day binge a month back etc etc. Well in my book they don't have 9 or 9 months clean they have a month. And I don't feel comfortable because they are screaming for help and it seems that we all enable them by not telling them that there is an error in their thinking. They don't have all that clean time. It happens all the time here.

I don't know about anyone else, but if I see it...I call it like I see it (and have). That's part of the reason I stay out of certain forums here: too much sugar-coating and sugar-footing. I tend to give it like it was given to me: RAW. I don't call relapses "slips" and I don't believe in "dips or weekend trips." LOL!! Using is using. I don't believe we do our members a favor by cosigning BS.

Oh yeah...my 1st clean date was 6/16/57 Lmao!!

[Lily]

I am very sorry that is happening in your area Huntsober. I am glad you are not okay with this.

Originally Posted by Gmoney

I don't know what made these folks think it was okay to set up a "flea market" in the parking lots of churches and other public facilities!!
G

G-LOL

[meditation]

Well I haven't called it. I need to grow some I suppose. I am an avoider. That's why I am an addict. It if is painful I try to not deal with it like I need to and procrastinate the devil out of it. Procrastination out of fear.

I was at an AA meeting the other day and 2 people that relapsed recently were all about saying they've seen the light and it's like they were the chosen to carry the message to the rest of us poor addicts/alcoholics. These same people had before the relapse "seen the light" and were telling us how we should work the program. Now that they've really seen the light so they say we all need enlightened and they are saying now get this.......... that in order to fully "GET" the program we need to relapse. lol I have heard it all.

[huntsober]

I heard it said best this way...."if you think TIME dont matter, then go get some...then loose it, then tell me it dont matter.

Also heard it this way too. If you think time dont count...."go get you some and come back to tell me it was easy and it dont really count"

The lady that gave me my white "chip" back then is still in the program. She relapsed with 25+ years...went out for a year and now has 5 years. She is one of my angels in this program. She teaches me how to stay green...

yall have a great weekend...J

[andyaddict]

No offense Huntski, but nearly everyone of the "if you don't think time don't matter, try getting some" crowd strike me as "If that's what 'TIME' represents around here, I don't want any."

The "importance of time" mindset is scary, it is usually held by those with excessive pride, low self-opinion, a need to belittle others, to unnecessarily jump to their own defense, self-righteousness, and unfounded fears.

Seldom do I mention my "time" in a meeting, when I share, or when talking to others about recovery. I believe that it would set me "apart from" EVERYONE in a meeting when I identify myself with that quality - nobody has or can have MY time in recovery at that particular moment. We are headed for trouble if we see ourselves as superior or inferior to others in meetings.

AAAAAnyway...

a

[huntsober]

"superior or inferior" More will be reveiled charpter

Those two thoughts or feelings sets me up for problems..Thanks Andy.

[andyaddict]

Originally Posted by huntsober

"superior or inferior" More will be reveiled charpter

Those two thoughts or feelings sets me up for problems..Thanks Andy.

Man, a guy that knows his book... L0o0o0oooove it!

a

[Gmoney]

Just like anywhere else, there are all kinds of folks in recovery (in the rooms). I personally don't believe there are any two people who are exactly alike. There truly is diversity in NA. So, for me, it isn't a surprise that some would want to acheive or strive for status or popularity...or whatever else floats their boat.

I've met members who've swung their clean time like a sword. I've met others who I would've never know had as much time as they did if I hadn't stumbled unto the info. My sponsor, for example, rarely mentions his clean time (and neither do I), but my first sponsor thought it was important to share clean time to give hope for newer members. Sometimes I think we put so much emphasis on time that we minimize the importance of step work, applying spiritual principles, and just plain old doing the right thing. I know oldtimers that act like newcomers and newcomers that act like oldtimers. So when the literature talks about there being no "model" for the recovering addict I really understand that there shouldn't be any "big I's" or "little U's." We are members of EQUAL status, freely helping one another to stay clean and recover.

Of course clean time is important. IMO, anyone who thinks it isn't should just keep coming back. At the least, clean time means we've gained experience at not using and have demonstrated that we've learned how to stay clean through the trials and tribulations of living life. Some of us may experience more than others (quality vs quantity), but staying clean gives us the greatest opportunity to acquire the quality of life we seek.

I pray for the ones that say clean time doesn't matter, my only suggestion is that they keep coming back. If they stick around, they'll see for themselves that it does. Staying clean must come first.

G

[Paulie]

I don't call relapses "slips" and I don't believe in "dips or weekend trips." LOL!! Using is using. I don't believe we do our members a favor by cosigning BS.

Amen to that!!!!!!!!

Having my BS cosigned helped in keeping me out of the rooms for years!!!!!

In the first post of this thread what I read the meaning to be is that people are not focusing on what I believe fuels my disease of addiction, and that is my behavior! The drugs I used for all those years were just a symptom of my disease the real problem for me is with my behavior. For me once I stopped using and detoxed the crap out of my body and began to have a clear thought once in a while, well that is when the real work started.....the steps change my behavior.

And one thing I want to toss out there. Lately I hear alot of what seems to be putting time on when you are not a newcomer anymore. Personally I never thought of it when I first got clean. I dont even know when I stopped thinking I was a newcomer. Maybe after I worked the steps the first time and was sponsoring others. But what I see alot of in the rooms here is people just waiting for the date (whatever they think it is) to not call themselves a newcomer any longer. I was secretary of a Saturday night meeting when I had 6 months clean, I still considered myself a newcomer, having that committment didnt change that. Makes me sad.
I am just curious as to when in other areas people stop calling themselves newcomers.....just curious that is all.

As was said here and it said many many times.....quality not quantity!