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Old 09-08-2009, 08:47 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Another question about court slips

I hope this doesn't degenerate into a name-calling back and forth fest of insults. I hope we can discuss this intelligently and serve as a power of example even though we may have differing points of view.

That being said, as I've talked about here before, I'm not a fan of forcing people to attend meetings on court slips, although I understand that some here got the message when they attended a meeting via a courtslip. So I can see both sides. The only solution that I can see at this time is to sign the slips at the door, then ask if they still want to come in. Then they have the slip signed, so it would be their choice. I think people should have a choice about this thing. My two cents.

But going beyond that, there is a new courtslip issue in my area. I was asked and began to serve as secretary at my new home group about a month ago. My home group has voted to sign the slips, and since that is the group conscience, we do so. We have a woman, L. who signs them as her service position. Last week, she handed me a slip saying, "You will have to sign this one." The slip went like so:

Joe Blow, Client
Meeting type (circle one) NA AA CDA CR Other____
Date/Time_______________
Group Leader (Secretary) Name (full name)____________________________

Leaders' certification (signature) _________________________________
Leaders' Contact Phone Number____________________________
By signing this, I ___________________ certify that Joe Blow has attended a full meeting of _______ and that s/he has participated fully, and was prompt and attentive, and was not disruptive in any way.

There were several slots for this. One for each day of the week. The member who had this slip told me that he has to fill one out each week. He stated that his program manager (?) has stated that she will check with us to see if he is really showing up to meetings.

Has anyone seen a slip like this? I didn't sign it, but I left it up to L, who decided she would fill it out, and did provide her number. She wasn't OK with giving her full name, though. I wouldn't give my name nor my number to this slip. What would you all do?

Love,
KJ
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Old 09-08-2009, 09:04 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Obviously the "program manager" who gave this person the slip has no clue about the programs listed on the slip. I doubt if I would've filled it out, but if I did...here's how I would've done it:

Joe Blow, Client
Meeting type (circle one) NA AA CDA CR Other____
Date/Time_____Meeting starts @ 4:30 ends @ 6:00__________
Group Leader (Secretary) Name (full name)_____GLW_________

Leaders' certification (signature) __________GLW__________________
Leaders' Contact Phone Number____________N/A________________
By signing this, I _______N/A____________ certify that Joe Blow has attended a full meeting of ___N/A____ and that s/he has participated fully, and was prompt and attentive, and was not disruptive in any way.

As a kicker, I may have also [1] provided a web address to the link on court cards at NA.org, [2] a brief definition of anonymity, and [3] a suggestion that the person who requests all this "babysitting" escort their client themselves if they want verification of the things on the slip.

G
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Old 09-08-2009, 09:30 AM   #3 (permalink)
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I would have done exactly what G did. And I also would have wrote a note on the bottom regarding anonymity.

I have never seen any slip like that.
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Old 09-08-2009, 09:35 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Now, there's someone who could benefit by a visit from the PI committee...

Though I always sign my full name on slips (it's habit), my handwriting is such that I doubt anyone could decipher it. But the rest of it? No way.

Peace & Love,
Sugah
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Old 09-08-2009, 10:47 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Custom Made Ruber Stamp, anyone?

Home group name - 12 stepping
Home group hours - 7:45 PM -9:00 PM
This line stays blank ______________ for the secretary initials or signature.

Staples.com Copy & Print — Custom Stamps
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Old 09-08-2009, 01:34 PM   #6 (permalink)
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How would someone possible know if someone was fully participating and fully attentive? Isn't that the first thing we learned in class was how to sleep w/ our eyes open and how to appear we are taking notes while really writing a note? That is crazy. I wouldn't sign it.
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Old 09-08-2009, 09:42 PM   #7 (permalink)
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How would someone possible know if someone was fully participating and fully attentive?
That's just one of the things that makes that slip ridiculous! It's not our job to focus on any one individual and report their behavior. And I certainly don't sign my full name on anything related to NA (except a reimbursement check!! )...let alone give my phone number to an unknown person who isn't in recovery. That slip is worded like a legally binding contract, and I agree with Sugah that the program manager needs to be paid a visit by the Public Information Subcommittee - or maybe they could just pick up a copy of our Basic Text and read it. LOL!!
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Old 09-08-2009, 11:02 PM   #8 (permalink)
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The slips we are given by a facility client are much simpler than that one.
There are spaces for meeting name/place, date, time, contact, & number.
The secretary of our Home Group signs the slips completely and honestly.
The point of contact (including phone number) is our Group's Chairperson.
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Old 09-08-2009, 11:18 PM   #9 (permalink)
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I believe I already know the answer, but I'll ask anyway - what's the purpose of a member providing a phone number to a program manager, drug counselor, halfway house facilitator, parole officer or whoever?
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"We are powerless not only over drugs, but over our addiction as well. We need to admit this fact in order to recover." NA Basic Text, pg.20, 5th Ed
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Old 09-09-2009, 07:49 AM   #10 (permalink)
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I didnít explain myself properly with my prior post.

We got a stamp from Staples that has our group name, time we meet and the address of the meeting and a blank line for initials. What I've seen work with court cards is to have someone at the door colleting the cards, then we place all the stamp cards at once on the table next to our literature. That way they can stay for the meeting or leave if that's what they want. My home group havenít ran into a problem with it (yet). At first we were signing them, then we thought it would be a better idea to get a stamp and it seems to be working.

So, with that said. If that card was given to me to sign, I would have stamp it and given it back.

A reality check.

Just a few days ago, I heard a story about an addict doing a robbery during meeting time and then providing "proof" he was at a NA meeting during that time because someone stamped his card at the beginning of the meeting rather than the end.

Some are sicker then others.

Ivan
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Old 09-09-2009, 07:50 AM   #11 (permalink)
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WC,
I don't think the secretary should be asked to sign their full name on a court or facility slip. That is my point. It isn't part of my service commitment to break my anonymity for court or a treatment center. I wouldn't sign on for that. And I refuse to make up a fake full name to make some counselor at IOP happy. I hate lying. And I refuse to field calls from program managers vouching for anyone else's attendance or "participation."

That is not what NA is about, not at all, IMO. I think if we humour these requests, we may be setting ourselves up for worse. What's next? Will they next ask their clients to take notes and give a report on the meetings in group therapy? Nightmare.

I'm not a Probation Officer. Part of why NA is so effective is it's anonymity. It is what made me feel free to come in, and what makes me feel free to share openly.

Love,
KJ
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Old 09-09-2009, 11:07 AM   #12 (permalink)
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The stamp idea is a good one. Like I've said in previous posts on this topic, we don't get a lot of people coming to our meetings with "slips" to sign so it hasn't become an issue. I think we all agree that our anonymity should be protected regardless of the requests made by outside sources. By signing my initials, I'm not being dishonest...but I'm also not revealing anything more than I'm comfortable with. I will not give my phone number to some unknown entity and my group doesn't own the facility where our meeting is held - so it isn't my place to give out the facility's number as a contact. IMO, requesting too much info is overstepping a boundary and we shouldn't be held (directly or indirectly) responsible.
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"We are powerless not only over drugs, but over our addiction as well. We need to admit this fact in order to recover." NA Basic Text, pg.20, 5th Ed
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Old 09-10-2009, 06:19 AM   #13 (permalink)
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KJ - I really don't want to come off as an arse but it seems like you make a big deal out of everything - have you ever asked yourself "why" ?

How hard is it, you sign what you feel comfortable signing and you don't do the rest. If you cant figure it out, you ask members with more experience in PI or meetings in general, but it isn't brain science unless you make it that way.

Court cards have been here long before you got here and will be long after - just use some acceptance and move on.
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Old 09-10-2009, 07:22 AM   #14 (permalink)
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NA is a big deal to me. Keeping the traditions is a big deal to me, too. I like to get everyone's opinions on here about stuff like this. This is an interesting topic to me. I like to get it right. If you don't enjoy my topics of discussion, don't read my posts. I'm not going to change my analytical nature to suit you.

KJ
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Old 09-10-2009, 07:53 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Nor would I ever ask you to change your nature however I would ask you to ask yourself "why"???

As the traditions are important to me and many others. Congratulations on your new way of life.
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Old 09-10-2009, 09:05 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by kj3880 View Post
I hope this doesn't degenerate into a name-calling back and forth fest of insults.
Garry, I think you are a blowhard and I don't particularly care for the clothes you're wearing either.

a
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Old 09-10-2009, 09:10 AM   #17 (permalink)
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lol, Andy..I can always count on you to lighten the mood.
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Old 09-10-2009, 09:20 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by kj3880 View Post
NA is a big deal to me. Keeping the traditions is a big deal to me, too. I like to get everyone's opinions on here about stuff like this. This is an interesting topic to me. I like to get it right. If you don't enjoy my topics of discussion, don't read my posts. I'm not going to change my analytical nature to suit you.

KJ
I have noticed that you also get defensive if anyone confronts your ideology.

Irony, I believe, is the key to understanding the traditions. It took me a great deal of research, participation, and application to understand.

Just as with the paradoxical slogan of the steps - you got to give it away to keep it - so goes the traditions - you got to let go to keep them.

Most often the ones that run around trying to "enforce" the traditions are doing the greater harm as we are subtly reminded... NA is a self-correcting program.

As for signing, NA has no opinion on how others decide to print their court cards. However, NA members do have the autonomy on whether or not to disclose their phone and social security numbers, birthdate, and name of favorite pet on each and every card.

Me, I put the date, time, and location of said meeting and an illegible signature, any more than that I scratch out (put a line through or an N/A).

andyaddict
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Old 09-10-2009, 09:27 AM   #19 (permalink)
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lol, Andy..I can always count on you to lighten the mood.
or vise-versa

lol, god I crack me up

a


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Old 09-10-2009, 10:55 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Most often the ones that run around trying to "enforce" the traditions are doing the greater harm as we are subtly reminded... NA is a self-correcting program.
Ya know Andy, I gotta agree with you on this one. LOL
For me, I can make something out of nothing in a heartbeat LOL

I know a few people in my area whose entire body tenses up when someone uses the word 'sober' in an NA meeting.......seriously, whatever. JMO!!!

Just sign the slips anyway you see fit and your group agrees on.
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