Gmoney

Wow!! Joe...you dropped so many "pearls" in that last post it was amazing!! I'd love to comment on a couple that really knocked the ball out of the park for me:

This is so very true! I know a number of oldtimers that don't come around anymore, but I also know a few that have returned in the past few years. Each of them have more than 20 years clean. Members with time come and go for many reasons, and some of which I can't begin to imagine. My 1st sponsor (and his sponsor, who has 22 years) would always tell me that I have to allow people to be where they are. I've since learned that we all have to go through whatever we go through in order to get to where we need to be. The personal serenity that Joe mentions, for me, comes as a result of accepting that my HP's will is done no matter what I think. And the attraction peice must be real because, although I'm coming up on 11 years next month, I have a sponsee who is a returning "dinosaur" that has 24 years clean. I was taken back when he asked me, and even came here to SR and questioned what I could offer someone who has so much time. The answer: The same ES&H that was so freely given to me.

All that stuff about stitches, pain pills, etc... are specific to an individual and really have no bearing on the quality of a person's recovery - regardless of time. I know member's who have gone through much worse in their 1st 5 years clean and kept coming back. Clean time isn't an accurate gauge of tolerance for pain.

Amen!

sct

This is a really interesting thread... like KJ, I'm still fairly new. In consider myself new in recovery, with about 18 months. (slightly over)

I had a good friend of mine start his path in recovery because he was court ordered to show up. He did admit that he was pretty resentful about it at first, but he kept coming back because he liked what he heard, and saw a pretty stark difference between the people working a program, and those just showing up to get their cards signed. He passed away from cancer in January, with 42 months clean. I remember that when he was able to share, he still spoke with so much hope, and patience, and love for the people and the program. He always said he just wanted to make it long enough to get 3 years clean, and then he could die happy. Even when he was dying, he was full of hope and warmth.

That kind of thing means a lot more to me than someone with double digits and a chip on their shoulder. I'm a little... surprised to hear being in a meeting as "being in the trenches." For me the trenches were back when I was using... I gave up that war because it almost killed me.

kj3880

Why so bitter, Tsar? I don't think people who have 25 years clean have nothing to offer, I just see a lot of them bitter and shutting down as a result. The things you are saying prove it. In my area, people with more than about 15 years have become cliquish and clannish and don't bother with newcomers like me. How can I get anything from anyone that refuses to mingle with me?

As far as I know, NA has always maintained that if you are prescribed pain meds for a procedure, and you use them only as prescribed and only during the time prescribed, that you are still "clean." As far as I know, even in your day it was like that. But here you are setting more of your own requirements as being more to the program. That's your stuff. If you can't use pain meds safely (I have the same problem) don't make out like that is the NA program. It isn't. It's your stuff.

As far as the Gangsta police-hating rap. I'm with you on that. It's not a good message. But I try not to get bitter and resentful about it.

And I don't know what to say about you thinking that I'm saying nothing happens between 7 and 25 years. Lots happens, but if you all don't want to share it with us, we can't make you.

Love,
KJ

huntsober

My disease is a disease of feelings. Every single one of them I have had to learn how to deal with in recovery. Many many times when things get smooth in recovery......and they do very fast. I would cause some kind of conflict just to make me feel at home.

All to often we do this in recovery. I think I did not make my point clear in the other post..

Those of us,,,ME,,,,,I,,,, with 25 years needs the time, space and acceptance to go through my process at this CURRENT stage of recovery. Please dont get it twisted...I get this thing called life mixed up and it takes me some time to figure it out.

Tsar7 this is your process...that is my point. Sooooo lets just ease up off somebody that is going through some stuff. ie KJ and sct

Remember folks going through stuff ant pretty, it dont sound good, nor does it smell good but we ALL must go through it.

My point is in the sprit of the loving caring fellowship what Tsar7 and many others taught me...is I am here now for you and when you process this all out I will be here for YOU and all others. That is why we are all here. young old blue green short tall.

There is a huge amount of value in our differences. Unity does NOT me uniformity. The steps teach me to live with me, the traditions teach me to live with you. My disease was anti you, anti love, anti trust, anti people...get my point... I have had to learn how to live with people because it is the very people in this program that my personal recovery depends on..

Tsar7 you have a powerful message. One in which I listen too because I want to learn and understand. I can disagree and still be agreeable. I dont see Tsar& as having a "chip" on his shoulders. I see an addict in love with this fellowship, with passion and hope.

If you have read my post this far....you share the same. Thats my point "unity" our recovery and the love or OUR fellowship is the common bond.

sct

...

Please read my signature. That was my experience with someone who was court ordered to go to meetings.

Uhm. Yeah, that's all.

Timebuster

Such wisdom.

Sorry I can’t articulate my thoughts in to words as some of you can and share my ES&H. But I am soaking it all in.

Ivan

Gmoney

Here's a story from my experience:

I was in a meeting about 7 years ago and an oldtimer shared, "I'm scared of you mothaf__ers!!" She began ranting and venting about A thru Z, but I heard none of it. Do you know why? Because I was still stuck on her opening line.

She called me a "motha__er!!!!!"

I turned to my sponsor and asked, "Who in the hell does she think she's talking to? I'm not nobody's motha___er!!" Immediately my wheels began to churn with comeback lines and ideas of what to share when my turn came. I was going to make sure she knew better than to EVER address me in that fashion again. That's when my sponsor took me by the arm and asked me outside.

Once outside, he explained to me that this oldtimer wasn't talking to me specifically, and that she was "going through." I didn't understand what that meant, but he reminded me of the same thing Joe talked about - we suffer from a "feelings disease" and what we feel is real to us when we're feeling it, although it may have nothing to do with facts or reality. He assured me that I shouldn't take everything I hear in meetings personal and he told me that one day I'd understand better...all I had to do was keep coming back and keep coming back clean.

Although I still believe that each of us should [1] think before we speak, and [2] be careful of throwing general statements into the air (you never know who that crap will land on) - today I'm more aware of how each of us process our beliefs and feelings differently. We all "go thru" some stuff from time to time...and it may come out of our mouths like we have a resentment, a chip on our shoulder...or just plain old fear.

I certainly know how difficult it can be to hold my tongue and just let someone harp about things I disagree with without offering my two cents. Sometimes I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't (say anything). For me, it's a never ending battle - do I help restore them to sanity, or do I allow them to be where they're at? It's a tough call, but more often than not...I'll try to share my ES&H and if they insist on keeping their mind closed, I'm satisfied in knowing I tried to help. It is truly better to understand than to be understood, and what I understand today is that sometimes we have to solve our own problems, develop our own solutions, or "get to the other side" in our own time.

Oh yeah...that same oldtimer has over 20 years now and she still attends meetings.

tflms

huntsober

Good stuff everyone...

G$ I still do the same thing from time to time...I guess I was raised to understand that cussing is just a person that does not have any other words in their vocab. to use.

Thanks again for everyones input....I love to look at different views and sides of issues. It helps me learn as I stubble around this thing we are all in...life.

Sugah

I've watched this thread and haven't said anything, mainly because most of you all--regulars, anyway--know I have made my home in AA. When I came in to NA, there weren't any oldtimers. The guy with the most time had about three years. Where did the oldtimers go? Did they get pushed out? I don't know how that happens, even when imagining some of the scenarios laid out in this thread. The indignant part of me (oh, yes, it's still in there, and gets its share of exercise) says, "That can't happen so long as they show up at group conscience meetings."

I've read in some AA literature about the difference between elder state(wo)men and bleeding deacons. (I don't want to blur a message drawing on other literature, but it's the only experience I have, as NA wasn't healthy enough at the time I got clean to sustain my recovery. Maybe there's NA literature I'm not familiar with that offers a parallel?) The former brings wisdom, as well as acceptance and tolerance, while the latter sit around and bitch about the good old days and how we're ruining it. The former will sometimes step up to fill a trusted servant position, while the latter equate rotation with retirement. And I've observed folks who fit in both categories. I've observed oldtimers who greet the newcomer with love and compassion, and I've seen them sit back and lecture to them. I've guided newcomers away from certain meetings because finding recovery there seems not to be based on how much they're willing to do the work but on how much **** they're willing to eat, force-fed to them by folks who think it's their job to bring about humility (i.e., humiliation in this respect).

So, the rooms I frequent have quite a few oldtimers, though they aren't all the uniform product of a fellowship fifteen, twenty, or thirty years ago. A good many of them are highly respected, though the best examples (IMO) in that group are quick to remind the newcomer that we're all equals, all on the path, though perhaps different places on the path. The ones who hole up together and bitch about court slips or high-bottom newcomers usually aren't present at group conscience meetings, service functions, MOTM, don't often put their names on phone lists or volunteer for the hotline, and rarely sponsor -- and when they do, we all hear about what a slug their new guy or girl is. When they share in meetings, they use "YOU" statements instead of "I" statements. The ones who's double-digit time hasn't (yet) gone to their heads, who knows we continue to "practice" these principles in all our affairs, will share how it was for them, what they did, not what they think the newcomer should do. They still have sponsors or spiritual advisors they use on a regular basis.

Well, there's my rant. I wasn't going to make it, but sometimes, I just can't keep my mouth shut. Tsar, I'm sorry you feel pushed out of contemporary NA. Maybe where you are, things are different. Where I am, the methadone clinics and suboxone doctors have pretty much cornered the market on addiction, as there's no PI committee attracting newcomers to NA. But even in the fellowship I attend, I see folks who are just as disgusted as you seem to be. I know I'm sitting in the same room as they are, but to listen to them, you'd think it was two different rooms. Early on when I was full of anger and frustration, it was suggested to me that I make that three degree shift and try to see things from a different perspective. It took some serious step work, setting down those feelings in my 4th and proceeding through 5-6-7, then making another list and carrying out the 9th step amends, before I had sufficient humility to imagine how someone else feels.

Peace & Love,
Sugah

Tsar7

Things have been very interesting the last few weeks.

My group to the north decided the old meeting place had deadly mold in it and moved almost overnight. Fortunately I was there the night before they moved and learned where they were going.

The website is no longer maintained and no one happened to put a note on the door indicating where they moved to.

So we wound up in the new diggs accross town with only six members there every night.

None of the courtslippers ever got sponsors or phone numbers and couldn't find the new meeting place.

Then a very interesting thing happened, the oldtimers started comming back.

I have no idea how they found the new place. I guess from the grapevine.

The first thing they did was thoroughly clean the new room and fix all the broken chairs and stuff. Then they bought a bigger coffee maker and began bringing cookies. Next they all kicked in and brought a bunch of literature. One actually drove two hours each way to pick it up.

Then they began raising their hands when they wanted to speak. It took a while but it caught on. They refused to make fun of the readings, so you had one person chiming out "Just for today" while a dozen oldtimers watched her blathering on. She finally caught on.

When loaded people began talking, the oldtimers would alll get up and go smoke. Then that got under control.

Everyone began going out for coffee every night.

People with little clean time are getting sponsors, going to coffee and comming to the Saturday night poker party.

It's be very interesting to watch.

I've been going every night without fail.

I know it will be eventully found and over runny courtslippers and turn into a zoo again but right now it's a breath of fresh air.

I never ever thought I would see good stable serious meetings again.

It has really, really helped my recovery. I'm happier, I laugh now, I'm back on my diet and I'm walking daily.

I'm the new coffee maker and have a new sponsee.

So don't quit before the miracle.

Latte

I volunteered as a CASA (court appointed special advocate) and saw a few parents of the children I worked with in meetings. The court system already knew about my sobriety and so did my GAL so I didn't worry if the said anything. One parent told the child I was working with that I was in recovery. It actually turned out to be in my favor. The child realized that people do recover. We talked about it, it was a great way to open that door and get the child to talk, and a great push for the parent to find recovery. As far as I know the mother regained custody of the child and she's still clean and sober today.

I guess I could get upset but I reached one family by my sobriety so I keep going, and keep listening to the court slippers and I keep praying.

Tsar7

Demonizing Tradition Followers---

I'm for following the traditions. OK.

They say that we ought never be affiliated with any other outside organization.

I would say that the federally funded Drug Courts ( a branch of homeland security ) is an outside organization.

And I would say that signing legal documents for that organization is affiliation. And we have had meeting secretaries supponed in California.

So it appears to me that my stance against courtslips follows the traditions.

Now, wise persons have pointed out that we always gravitate to seeking an easier softer way, left to out own devices.

Most see courtslips as the key to recovery.

They hate to see addicts spend decades in prison.

It is easier and softer to simply send them to a meeting.

After all, why wouldn't they take advantage of the opportunity to get clean.

Evidence of the softer easier way presents itself in the one half of one percent of courtslippers getting clean for good.

But that is like watching the lottery winners on TV and advising your kids to invest all of their money in lottery tickets as a path to wealth.

It was said that if you bought a Michigan Powerball ticket, that you actually had a greater chance of becomming president of the United States of America at some point in your lifetime than having the winning ticket.

Keeping the dream alive that courtslips are the key is because we seek an easier softer way. Therefore, any factual information that negates the courtslip phenomina must be squelched.

In order to believe in Santa Clause, the bedroom closet full of presents and the Santa suit must be kept locked at all times.

Thus to keep the reasoning that courtslips are ok tradition wise and are very effective, one must silence any presenters of factual information. You simply cannot have little boys running around saying " Mommie, the emperor has no clothes on."

in reading the past threads, the oldtimers who feel that courtslips are a tradition violation are linked with all kinds of bad behavior.

They cluster in groups, do not put their names on phone lists, never sponsor, are aloof, never attend ASC meetings, refuse to talk to newcommers, etc.

So all they really do is show up late, complain about courtslips and leave in a huff.

Therefore, it is obvious that these oldtimers, behaving badly, have no credibility and anything they say must be bunk. I mean it's like they really are nit even in NA any more.

They have been proven to not be working any sort of a program.

Therefore, the argument that courtslips are in line with the traditions and are highly effective and have no negative consequences stands undisputed.

The argument against them loses by default as it's proponents ( oldtimers ) have been shown to be selfcentered clueless assholes.

Therefore, the softer easier way of courtslips stands uncontested.

Case closed.

The codependents get their way, no body has to go to those nasty old prisons, everybody gets clean and the oldtimes can go hang out somewhere else with their vile personalities and out of touch beliefs.

It's like the WWII Nazi movies showing Jews and footage of rats running down the sewer.

The oldtimers are not really what we need for a strong, vibrant, modern NA fellowship.

But that does leave a few little lingering problems or questions.

1. If we are at a meeting and we go over to an old timer and ask for a phone number, we will most certainly get one along with a. Invitation to meet for coffee in most cases.

2. If these oldtimers are so selfcentered, how are they staying clean. Did they get grandfathered in to the clean club?

3. Why doesn't WSO change the book to say "we are not affiliated with any outside organizations except for the Federal Drug Court".

4. How come every body keeps talking about nudges from judges like it's cute. Is it an attempt to minimize.

5. How come the oldtimers never seems to get asked to speak
much. You can bet Sculley speaks to pilot groups all the time. They want to learn his secrets.

And on and on.

So go forth. Go up to an oldtimer and say hi. See what happens.

But, again, I could be a total jerk and not realize it.

Sugah

Hmmm... too bad the newcomer can't find them, but, hey, at least they get to hear themselves speak, right?

Tsar, are you familiar with the term, "King Baby?"

You are so concerned with these oldtimers (and with twenty-six years, I guess that makes you one) getting what they need, but I don't hear any concern about those, with or without a slip in their hands, who will surely die if you and your oldtimers keep insisting on taking your toys and going home.

But, hey, you're getting what you need now, right? You're reapportioning some of the time you spent resenting court slippers and funneling it in to healthy activities. That's great. It's just that after reading your "breath of fresh air" post, I can't get the image of the desperate junkie standing at a closed door out of my mind.

Peace & Love,
Sugah

Gmoney

So you're saying it is the federally funded courts that come and ask you to sign a slip? I thought it was the addict, member or potential addict. So, according to this logic, everything we do for any member makes us directly affiliated with every agency that member is tied to? Gimmie a break. I guess we better disband all or PI or PR subcommittes, stop having conventions in hotels or public places, break up our H&I services, and hide in each others basements! LOL!! There is a difference between affiliation and cooperation.

And this "evidence" is backed by which studies?

I didn't get the impression that anyone thought an alternative to incarceration was "cute." But I do know that many (if not most) of our jails and prisons are populated by non-violent addicts who wouldn't have been there if it weren't for the crimes they committed trying to support their drug addiction. I guess that part in the book that talks about how we're not bad trying to be good, but sick trying to get well goes right out the window.

Reminds me of the prejudice some members who never went to rehab have against the ones who did. Makes me think they're angry because they didn't get to go.

Timebuster

Step Twelve

"Having had a spiritual awakening as a result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to addicts and to practice these principles in all our affairs."

What a promise! What a gift! My spirit is awakened from the deep sleep that it had been mired in all these years! I am able to recover my true nature as a spiritual being as a result of practicing these spiritual principles in my daily life. If I am successful in practicing spiritual principles in every aspect of my life, as the Tradition put it in 'all our affairs,' then every person that my Higher Power puts in my life will automatically be influenced and benefit from the message that I carry. Remember this slogan? In order to keep it, we must give it back.

Taking5

If your group (not you personally) does not like court ordered attendees, have a group conscience meeting and refuse to sign their slips. I know groups that have done this. No judge can order an unnamed, anonymous group of people to sign something when the group of people is not under the court's jurisdiction to begin with.

I know of a judge who was momentarily pi$$ed off when a group stopped signing slips, but when reality hit home even he realized he has no power to order this to happen.

In fact ordering people to NA/AA is actually illegal in several states as it has been found to be a religious organization in court and thus violates separation of church and state. I profoundly disagree, but this has already been ruled on.

Gmoney

I'm sure you probably believe that's why you're not asked to speak. Could possibly be more than that. In my area, there are members with time that don't get asked to speak because all they do is whine, complain, bitch or moan. People get tired of hearing it so they stop asking. One member I know that doesn't get asked anymore use to always share about buying sex, his jealousy of other members who drive nice cars, and how it's everyone else's fault he can't keep a job. Members get tired of hearing the disease...they want to hear the recovery.

just a thought....

Sugah

Each group is autonomous, right? I wouldn't dream of suggesting that slips cease to be signed. If one in a hundred of those folks gets and stays clean (and doesn't die) as a result of a "nudge from the judge," I'm cool with it.

But here's what I would suggest in a group conscience meeting, if it were my home group. How about we amend our chair's opening statement to read, "The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop using. If you don't yet have that desire, we ask that you not share until you do. Our primary purpose is to carry the message of recovery to the addict who still suffers. It is our group conscience decision to ask anyone not fulfilling that primary purpose to refrain from sharing. If you disregard this decision and attempt to disrupt the meeting, we will ask you to leave."

Radical? Maybe.

Peace & Love,
Sugah

mtnmagic

I'm sorry. I have to reply and I am in a rage. I am an alcoholic in recovery.
(Yes with many relapses.) I have a son who was addicted to Oxy. I tried to get him to go to NA, to no avail. But then the court sentenced him to either AA/NA. He went to NA. It was entirely his fault that he did not stay, but the group refused to sign his court papers. The end result was he went to prison for 8 months. Not for any new offenses. Just for not fulfilling his probation conditions.

Today he is clean, and on parole. I know that he is just getting by. When I suggest he goes to NA he laughs at me. It is not a pretty picture.

I will contrast it with what I have experienced in AA. While never having to have a paper signed, I have never been turned away, made feel less then or nothing else then welcomed. I have been to meetings, where myself included was shaking, detoxing and no matter what loved.

So the odd's are small that those court signing people will get clean. The odds of staying clean and sober sure aren't much better from what I've witnessed.

Just my own vent.

kj3880

In my area, there are members who don't get asked because we're all tired of hearing them complain about how in "the good old days of NA" newcomers would just put the cotton back in their mouths and clean out the toilets. How tough they had it. Like getting and staying clean nowadays is somehow a free ride. I got news for you, kicking still s@cks. Cravings still s@ck. Loss and pain still s@ck.

When I came in last April, I was looking for hope, experience, strength, acceptance and love, not intolerance and bickering, and clannishness. Luckily, I had people in SR to tell me to keep coming back when I was met with negativity and judgment from some long-term members, to keep trying other meetings.

I remember one man, with over 30 years, telling me, "You haven't lost enough. You still have your job and your house. You are only on pain pills. You probably won't be able to get this, because you probably aren't able to be desperate yet." This same man frequently shares "I wish all you people I've never seen before would join another home group. I can't stop you from messing this one up, and I'd rather we keep this group small." We have to pull newcomers up after and explain that his opinion isn't shared by the rest of us. Needless to say, nobody asks him to speak. We hear enough from his shares, which he saves until the end of every meeting, then drops on us like pearls of wisdom from above.

And we had another man, 22 years clean, threaten to kill a young woman last week in a meeting, because she "cut him off." He isn't asked to speak at conventions or meetings either. Clean time does not equal recovery.

I agree with Sugah, I hate to think of the junkie in front of that locked door at the place that used to hold Tsars' meeting, wondering "Where can I go now?" You guys now have nice hot coffee, and nice cushy chairs, but not newcomers? What is that?

KJ