We got kicked out again!

[Gmoney]

This just happened a couple of days ago, but I found out today.

There's a woman in the rooms with 13 years clean and she was dating an addict with just under 18 months. She's a pretty big girl (5' 11'' & 230 lbs. approx) and very outspoken and aggressive. By profession, she's a bouncer at a club and a security guard. Apparently, the couple broke up and had words.

My area is pretty large and there was once 3 noon meetings daily...now there's only one and many members attend. Actually, it's now one of our largest meetings and on any given day there will be anywhere between 30 - 60 members there.

Thursday, she showed up with an unknown man and they jumped on the ex-boyfriend and knocked him out cold. The facility has given the group one week to find a new location and members are looking into what they can do. Some have mentioned banning her from meetings. I have no idea what a solution is, but if it were me that got beat up, I'd have restraining orders, orders of protection and assault charges in place.

All I can think of is whether this newer member will feel as if he is run out of the fellowship...or if he will allow fear to keep him away. What if he uses behind this? I don't know him personally, but I do know his sponsor. I hope and pray he has the support he needs right now.

Of course I do not know the specifics behind the altercation, and my other concern is how the public will perceive us and the damage we do to our reputation when we continually get thrown out of facilities. Personally, this is just more affirmation for me to avoid relationships in the rooms.

When I joined NA almost 11 years ago, there were 77 or 78 meetings in my area. Now we have 65 and most of those we lost was due to our behavior.

tflms

[suki44883]

Wow!

I guess we all need to remember that not all members of AA/NA are mentally healthy.

[kj3880]

That is truly a shame. It is unusual to have it be a woman jumping a man. In my area, the physical fights in NA are usually men fighting over a woman. She dates one, they break up, then he has to see her in the rooms with the new bf. Luckily, there haven't been many such incidents this year. Usually, the others break it up before it gets beyond strong gestures and words.

KJ

[Sugah]

Wow, G. I have seen folks with considerable clean time coming to meetings and still acting like they're living in the streets or in the bars. One doesn't have to work too hard to "take another's inventory" when there's violence and aggressiveness involved. I really don't get why they keep coming back. Is it that meetings are the one place they think they can't be kicked out or shunned?

If the object of her violence is someone I was sponsoring, I'd be urging the same thing I'd do for myself and you indicated you'd do -- involve the police, press charges, and get a restraining order. And if you refuse her entry to a group or groups, who enforces the ban and how is it enforced? Sounds like she doesn't respond well to perceived rejection.

I'm really sorry to hear that this has happened. There's something to be said for the old-old days when someone was sponsored through the first three steps before entering a meeting.

Peace & Love,
Sugah

[Timebuster]

I don’t know the whole story. But this what happens when you don’t work and follow our steps and traditions or throw them out the window and take our will back.

Everyone pays because of one or two knuckleheads.

It’s a shame.

Ivan

[Paulie]

I don’t know the whole story. But this what happens when you don’t work and follow our steps and traditions or throw them out the window and take our will back.

Everyone pays because of one or two knuckleheads.

It’s a shame.

Yep, exactly!!!!
That really is very sad.

[REZ]

I think it is within the group's right to ban people from meetings for a period of time or indefinitely. The group needs to be a safe place for people to recover. Many people could be hurt if they feel like they can't go to that meetings because it's not safe. It's sad that after 13 years clean she has not learned to deal with her anger/resentments in a more constructive way. Clean time doesn't equal recovery.

[Paulie]

I agree REZ, but how does a group go about that.....how do you ban someone from meetings? I mean do you put a bouncer at the door to stop them from coming in?

[Timebuster]

Originally Posted by Paulie

I agree REZ, but how does a group go about that.....how do you ban someone from meetings? I mean do you put a bouncer at the door to stop them from coming in?

The is the 6 million dollar question Paulie.

A rude awakening is a good start. The parties who started the fight should make amends to the group as a whole. Then take it from there.

That is if the group still has a place to meet. Like I said I don’t know the facts, I am only surmising from what Garry wrote.

Ivan

[andyaddict]

Maybe you guys need to impliment an identity statement - that might help.

andy

[andyaddict]

Originally Posted by REZ

I think it is within the group's right to ban people from meetings for a period of time or indefinitely. The group needs to be a safe place for people to recover. Many people could be hurt if they feel like they can't go to that meetings because it's not safe. It's sad that after 13 years clean she has not learned to deal with her anger/resentments in a more constructive way. Clean time doesn't equal recovery.

Restricting access is the facility's job, not NA's.

a

[kj3880]

Originally Posted by andyaddict

Maybe you guys need to impliment an identity statement - that might help.

andy

How would it help? Am I missing something here (as usual!!!)

Love,
KJ

[Freedom1990]

Originally Posted by andyaddict

Restricting access is the facility's job, not NA's.

Why would it be the facility's job? I don't see it that way at all.

[Sugah]

Originally Posted by andyaddict

Restricting access is the facility's job, not NA's.

a

Andy, I respect your position on most things, but this really has me scratching my head.

We're not affiliated with any outside entity, including those that own the facilities where we hold our meetings. How is keeping order in an NA group the responsibility of any other entity besides the group itself? When renting space to hold our meetings, we're more often than not given a set of guidelines to follow. Then, it's our responsibility to see that we, as a group, follow those guidelines -- right?

If we don't, then, yes, the facility takes over, as it has in this instance. Eviction.

Peace & Love,
Sugah

[andyaddict]

Originally Posted by Sugah

Andy, I respect your position on most things, but this really has me scratching my head.

We're not affiliated with any outside entity, including those that own the facilities where we hold our meetings. How is keeping order in an NA group the responsibility of any other entity besides the group itself? When renting space to hold our meetings, we're more often than not given a set of guidelines to follow. Then, it's our responsibility to see that we, as a group, follow those guidelines -- right?

If we don't, then, yes, the facility takes over, as it has in this instance. Eviction.

Peace & Love,
Sugah

If, like the instance cited that precipitated this thread were to be addressed, the facility, in cooperation with group members, simply makes it clear that the person is not welcomed on the property. NA does/should not have rules, especially ones denying members access to meetings, facilities can and do.

The reason we don't have a traditions handbook the size of a set of an encyclopedia is because we leave "law" making and enforcement to other parts of society, therefore keeping our program as simple as possible – carrying the message to the still suffering addict.

We don't affiliate, but we do cooperate. We are responsible to communicate our concerns to the facility and take as much responsibility as possible for cleaning up this mess. However, it is much easier for the facility to enforce and uphold the laws of the land than some simple-minded NA members.

Remember how that cheesy group (I think in New York) got in so much $hit when they wouldn't allow a "Lord's Prayer" at the end of a meeting? The person sued and the group/area/region now owes an exorbitant amount of money and they are asking other groups/areas/regions for financial assistance? I think the story was in the last Conference Agenda Report. Things like this happen when we (NA) don’t keep ourselves right sized.

These topics often come up, I believe, due to our collective defects of character that insistently crave for power and control. These are qualities that both our steps and traditions help us recover from. Tradition's Two, Three, Nine, and Ten warns us never to attempt our hand at law enforcement. It's always best to leave these responsibilities to those whose duty it is to perform such functions.

andy

[Gmoney]

Originally Posted by andyaddict

Maybe you guys need to impliment an identity statement - that might help.

andy

KJ,

Andy is being sarcastic. He should know very well that an "identity statement" (whatever that is...) or any other kind of statement, for that matter, isn't going to alter the violent or disruptive behavior of violent and disruptive members.

Restricting access is the facility's job, not NA's.

On this, I agree with Ivan. I mean, how would a group go about something like that? Yet, I not so sure about who's job it is to ensure that a meeting is safe. I agree with Sugah that the group is responsible for maintaining order, but being the authority over who can or cannot attend might pose an even greater problem. We have no NA Police, no bouncers and no doormen...we have greeters. And I can imagine few people willing to get involved for fear of their own safety.

There was recently a case where a facility did ban a member from coming on the premises because of their violent behavior...so I do know that a facility has that authority. Yet I also believe that it is within the right of each group to protect itself and it's ability to meet. Calling the police whenever an undesired/violent member shows up isn't unreasonable...or is it?

Sadly, this group won't get any more chances. They've got 1 week to move.

[Sugah]

I'm just wondering how many facilities would be willing to enforce for our members' benefit. In the real world scheme of things, it seems much easier to do as this one has done and ask us to move. Which is unfortunate.

Peace & Love,
Sugah

[andyaddict]

Originally Posted by Sugah

I'm just wondering how many facilities would be willing to enforce for our members' benefit. In the real world scheme of things, it seems much easier to do as this one has done and ask us to move. Which is unfortunate.

Peace & Love,
Sugah

I think this is also true, it would depend upon the relationship the group has with the facility and whether or not there is a facility representative on site around or during meeting time, like a club perhaps.

Yes, as the Gman said, individual's have the right to call the police in the instance it is warranted. This would fall under the auspices of "group opinion" which is independent of group conscience or any official stance of NA. However, would the facility approve of a group doing that very often? My guess is no, it effects the reputation of the facility.

This is why I would find this a good topic to discuss over and over throughout various meetings in the area for weeks or even months to come. Having the entire fellowship in that area tuned into these issues would be a good first step. The more aware the groups are the less vulnerable the groups would be to that behavior.

We've done that in our area when issues like this happened before. It became a recurring topic in local meetings as everyone grew awareness whether they wanted to or not. Now this awareness is somewhat an innate part of our area's fellowship and there is little violence to speak of (at least that I know of).

andyaddict
Los Angeles

[Wolfchild]

Has the Group considered writing the facility a letter of apology? This would be a way of taking responsibility for what went on in the meeting and might leave the door open should the Group decide to make an amends to the facility at a later date. Hopefully, this incident will not prevent the Group from securing another facility.

[Gmoney]

...it would depend upon the relationship the group has with the facility and whether or not there is a facility representative on site around or during meeting time, like a club perhaps.

Andy is on point here. This group is one the oldest groups in our area and has been meeting at the same facility for over 20 years. According to a few of the group's eldest members, they've always had a strong working relationship and since the group's meeting time was 12:00 (noon) there was always facility staff leaders on the premises during meeting time.

However, would the facility approve of a group doing that very often? My guess is no, it effects the reputation of the facility.

So true. I believe they just said, "Enough is enough," and like Sugah asserted, forcing the group to move was deemed a more appropriate course of action. I mean, what business wants their clients to see the police being called to their place on a regular basis? I know I wouldn't if I were running the facility. The group was already on shaky ground with that facility because of past incidents.

Having the entire fellowship in that area tuned into these issues would be a good first step. The more aware the groups are the less vulnerable the groups would be to that behavior.

That sounds good, but I'm not so sure discussion and awareness alone offers a solution. We've been loosing one or two meetings a year since I joined in 1998 and the problem still exists. We can offer apologies till the cows come home, but those of us who accept the responsibility of the behavior of others aren't the ones getting us kicked out of facilities. The funny thing about awareness is that it goes right out the window when the disease rears it's ugly head.

My personal opinion is that far too many of us are working the fellowship instead of working the program. The steps are the solution.

[Timebuster]

Originally Posted by Gmoney

My personal opinion is that far too many of us are working the fellowship instead of working the program. The steps are the solution.

I agree with you 100% Garry.


I said it in my home group and I will say it here.

((((Don’t Sh*t Where You Eat))))

Did I make myself loud and clear?

Ivan

[huntsober]

Sad.

I must always remember that my behavior at mgts. in Mississippi has the ability to affect NA as a whole in other parts of the world. Thanks for shairing this sad isolated incident.

[Missybuns]

Originally Posted by andyaddict

Maybe you guys need to impliment an identity statement - that might help.

andy

seriously......

Restricting access is the facility's job, not NA's.

thanks

[Gmoney]

UPDATE:

The executive director originally stated that the group had one week to find a new location. Yesterday I was told that he was giving the group two weeks. I received an email tonight from someone who sits on the facility's board of directors (an addict), and it has been decided that the group will get another chance, and is allowed to continue meeting at the same location.

My HP looks out for babies and fools! LOL!! Just kidding...we're blessed, though.

[Paulie]

My HP looks out for babies and fools! LOL!! Just kidding...we're blessed, though.

That is funny, so does mine

GREAT news.