Using Methadone for withdrawal

[groverat]

I know there's currently another thread on drugs for withdrawal, but I need to know specifically about Methadone. I have a very close friend who is in the program. We both have have been clean about one year, and we both share the same sponsor. This person confided to me last week that they have been on Methadone for several months, prescribed by the psychiatrist they're going to for withdrawal, primarily from hydrocodone. The reason they told me about it was that their one-year birthday is this month and they wanted to know if I thought they should pick up a medallion at our group's birthday meeting next Saturday.

Well, my first reaction was total shock because honestly I don't feel that they have been clean at all. I told them, because I knew how fragile they are, that of course they should pick up a chip since this was prescribed by a doctor. Of course I was totally lying because I don't consider them as being clean at all.

To further complicate the matter is the fact that we both have the same sponsor and they asked me to promise that I won't tell the sponsor, which I realize means that they know they are just deluding their self.

My questions are:
1. Does anyone agree with me that this is not being "clean"
2. Is it wrong that I lied to them?
3. How do I handle not telling my sponsor - who I've of course always been
nothing but honest with?

I would sure appreciate any input because this is eating my lunch.

[jimhere]

Originally Posted by groverat

I know there's currently another thread on drugs for withdrawal, but I need to know specifically about Methadone. I have a very close friend who is in the program. We both have have been clean about one year, and we both share the same sponsor. This person confided to me last week that they have been on Methadone for several months, prescribed by the psychiatrist they're going to for withdrawal, primarily from hydrocodone. The reason they told me about it was that their one-year birthday is this month and they wanted to know if I thought they should pick up a medallion at our group's birthday meeting next Saturday.

Well, my first reaction was total shock because honestly I don't feel that they have been clean at all. I told them, because I knew how fragile they are, that of course they should pick up a chip since this was prescribed by a doctor. Of course I was totally lying because I don't consider them as being clean at all.

To further complicate the matter is the fact that we both have the same sponsor and they asked me to promise that I won't tell the sponsor, which I realize means that they know they are just deluding their self.

My questions are:
1. Does anyone agree with me that this is not being "clean"
2. Is it wrong that I lied to them?
3. How do I handle not telling my sponsor - who I've of course always been
nothing but honest with?

I would sure appreciate any input because this is eating my lunch.

To begin with I have no experience with methadone or withdrawal from opiates. But I do have experience with lying.

Answer to question number one: Yes I agree that using methadone to avoid withdrawal is not what I would consider being clean.

I am an alcoholic. In order to get well I first had to be sick I had to go through the misery of withdrawal. I used to avoid that by drinking more booze or getting loaded on sedatives or wired on speed. As long as I was not willing to just go through the withdrawal symptoms, I could not begin to recover. I work at a treatment center and they send several of their residential clients to the methadone clinic every morning. I do not agree with this approach and am tempted to tell the director what I just told you. Why keep someone sick and delude them that they are getting well?

Question number two: You should not have lied to them. If I were you and I really considered this person my friend, I would flat-out call them on it, even it means the risk of losing their friendship. Friendship based in dishonesty are pretty shallow anyways.

Question number three: IMO it is not your job to tell your sponsor or anyone else. At least not right now. Have you written inventory (Fourth Step) about your dishonest friend and your relationship with him? If not, I suggest you do and then bring it to your sponsor. That way you will not be going to him in a spirit of gossip.
Jim

[Gmoney]

1. Does anyone agree with me that this is not being "clean"
2. Is it wrong that I lied to them?
3. How do I handle not telling my sponsor - who I've of course always been
nothing but honest with?

Well said Jim. I agree on a number of bases. IMO your friend isn't clean, but that doesn't mean they aren't a member and can't recover. I never knew that mental health professionals prescribed medications for physical conditions (???). That's a new one for me. "Kicking" cold turkey, IMO, is probably the fastest way to get past withdrawal, but I've also heard it isn't always the safest way. I know many addicts who would debate this issue all day, but since opiates (nor alcohol) weren't my thing, I have no 1st hand experience with severe physical withdrawal. All I can offer is an opinion.

Here's something that stood out for me:

We both have have been clean about one year, and we both share the same sponsor. This person confided to me last week that they have been on Methadone for several months,...The reason they told me about it was that their one-year birthday is this month

I dunno, but, if this addict has been clean for, let's say, 8 months without methadone...and then, starts taking it for withdrawals for "several months" (let's say 3), doesn't that sound fishy to you? I mean, it brings up the question, when did they become addicted to hydrocodone? Sounds to me like their entire "clean time" has been fabricated. Naw...I would snitch him out, but I certainly wouldn't have co-signed his BS either.

[Gmoney]

Naw...I would snitch him out, but I certainly wouldn't have co-signed his BS either.

I meant, I wouldn't snitch. Things like this have a way of revealing itself without assistance.

[kj3880]

Luckily, the only clean time I have to count is my own. I have to let people be where they are, and I certainly wouldn't consider it my business to tell anyone else that someone is on methadone.

If a person is on Methadone, while not technically clean, if they are taking it as prescribed, it's a step in the right direction. It is certainly safer than taking whatever cr@p the dealers are touting as heroin on the streets, and the dose is controlled, if they are taking it correctly. They aren't clean, but sometimes methadone is the best option for a person's situation. Who are we to judge? I advocate acceptance for people on methadone. It isn't for everyone, but some people seem to need it to get clean.
KJ

[Vintersemestre]

Telling someone they aren't "CLEAN" when they're doing everything they can to become so isn't very nice. Some people simply cannot tolerate the withdrawal from opiates (it's bad - REALLY REALLY bad). That doesn't mean they aren't any less sincere in their efforts to stop abusing illegal narcotics. This is one of many many reasons why I despise NA, dogmatism on par with organized religion.

[Gmoney]

Originally Posted by Vintersemestre

Telling someone they aren't "CLEAN" when they're doing everything they can to become so isn't very nice. Some people simply cannot tolerate the withdrawal from opiates (it's bad - REALLY REALLY bad). That doesn't mean they aren't any less sincere in their efforts to stop abusing illegal narcotics. This is one of many many reasons why I despise NA, dogmatism on par with organized religion.

I didn't see anywhere in the original post that anyone told anyone else they weren't clean. To come right out and make a statement like that to someone is, IMO, inappropriate and generally ignorant. What I understood was that one addict was asking another addict for advice or an opinion. And just like it's a judgment to make a call on whether someone is clean or not, it's also a judgment to say that they are "doing everything they can," - are they really? And how do you know?

I, for one, cannot assume I know 100% what someone else's desire level is or how genuine they are. I usually go by what I see and what I feel -even then I can be wrong. I also don't make it a point to go around announcing my views on this or that, but when I'm asked for an opinion I'll often share it. Just because I believe someone isn't clean doesn't mean it's my responsibility to tell them. If asked...I'll be honest.

[jimhere]

"Some people simply cannot tolerate withdrawal from opiates." No, some simply will not try to kick because of the dread of being dope sick for several days.

To begin with, withdrawal from opiates is rarely fatal. The addict only wishes they were dead. On the other hand withdrawal from alcohol and some barbituates can be fatal, and detox should be medically supervised.

No, some simply aren't willing to endure the several days of wishing-you-would-die dope sick hell. I do not mean to sound cold-hearted, but part of my duties at work include working in a medical detox facility. We get many opiate addicts, and believe me they are sick, really sick for several days. They get medical attention and rest and some actually gey clean. One of them told me that kicking methadone is as bad or worse than heroin.

Big difference in "trying" to be clean and actually being clean.

[Vintersemestre]

For most people it lasts several days, for me the physical symptoms came and went regularly for three months - as well as intolerably debilitating mental ones. Not everyone is the same.

[Gmoney]

My 1st sponsor was a heroin addict. He said he kicked in his cousins basement in less than a week. I know several addicts in the rooms that have kicked in jail cells. Most of the "dinosaurs" in my area with 18 years or more (my current sponsor has 23 years) often talk about the days when there were no drug replacement programs for "junkies" and they did what they had to do to get clean.

[tiburon88]

Yes they are clean. Everyone should worry about their own clean time only. I find "counting days" and "celebrating" clean time harmful to me.


tib

[Latte]

Debating over MMT or Suboxone never did anything for me.

I only worry about my clean time. Others are accountable for themselves.

[Gmoney]

For me, the word "worry" has nothing to do with joining in a discussion that addresses the questions asked by the original poster. Worry doesn't even apply to my own clean time. Thanks to NA and the 12 steps I'm very confident in my ability to stay clean. And I'm also one of those people that remembers my clean date. For me, it's important like remembering when I graduated from high school or college, when I got hired, my birthday, etc... I tend to remember and celebrate days that are significant in my life and I've never been harmed by doing so. I don't worry about anyone else's clean time, but I do keep track. It helps when I go get a congratulations card for anniversaries.

[navysteve]

Interesting thread,
I hate to see the same old debate kick up. Like Gary I keyed in on this:

We both have have been clean about one year, and we both share the same sponsor. This person confided to me last week that they have been on Methadone for several months, prescribed by the psychiatrist they're going to for withdrawal, primarily from hydrocodone.

That seems like an awful long time to be on Methadone but it really isn't for me or anyone to decide. There are people in the rooms who are on pain management programs where they are given Narcotics everyday for long periods of time. Are they not clean???
I don't know, I think the important thing is, do they rise above the hurdle given them? Or do they hide it??????
Secrets keep me sick...
Real sick!

Whenever I am taking drugs ( I only take them when prescribed) someone knows about it. I have been clean longer than I used. I have recovered and re-joined society. But I have watched prescription meds plague people in NA and AA. I think alot of it is the stigma we put on it. And understandibly so, after all what brought us here??? But rigorous honesty has to be a part of my program. Anything that interferes ( or has the potential to interfere) needs to be identified. I think it sucks that the overwhelming majority of people I know in NA seem to think that you are not clean if you are using Meds prescribed by a doctor to withdrawl as not being clean. Having said that:

12 months on Meth????

As someone who has had the pleasure of kicking opiates all I can say is:
damn!

[kj3880]

12 months on methadone isn't at all unusual in my area, not to say that it is right or wrong, just that it's not a short-term program around here most of the time. I have a friend in the rooms who has been on methadone for over 10 years. She's what they call a lifer. Every time she tried to get off of it she became horribly sick and clinically depressed, and eventually relapsed, lost everything over and over. So after years of trying different methods, she decided that for her, methadone is something that she isn't OK without.

She's a good wife and mom, good employee, good friend, daughter, neighbor, reasonably happy. I think if that's what you have to do, if nothing else works for you, then it's better than the street.

We have to remember that we aren't bad people trying to be good. We are sick people trying to get well. If this is what makes her feel well, who am I to say? That's why I advocate loving acceptance in the rooms. We aren't all the same, I guess.
KJ

[hopeful62]

I've been on methadone, am currently detoxing with suboxone, have had 15+ years of sobriety (100% clean with no drugs or alcohol), have kicked heroin/dilaudid in jail, drug treatment programs, and voluntarily on the street. After a long sobriety, I started using due to pain medication prescribed for some injuries. As I type now, I'm experiencing throbbing pain that reminds me why I started using again, after all those years of sobriety. And I know that I don't have the option of using pain killers anymore as I've proved that I am incapable of taking them as prescribed.

So - that's my background. IMHO, someone on methadone or suboxone is not clean. I consider either a valid option, far better than using/abusing other drugs. If someone cannot be drug free for whatever reason, and they maintain a good life on methadone or suboxone, I'm happy that they got off of the destructive drugs and onto a legal, physically less destructive drug on which they can have a relatively normal life. I don't think that NA/AA should reject them because I think that they can work a program. But, they are not "clean". Both are mind altering, both are narcotics.

I think that some of this superiority about being clean should be minimized. Acceptance . . . I won't judge another as I can never walk in that person's shoes. I know that I have in me, my psyche, my physical body and brain chemistry the ability to live a clean and sober life, 100% free of drugs, legal or otherwise. So, for me, methadone and suboxone are not acceptable long term options. But, for someone with problems with anxiety, depression, severe pain issues, etc., how could I possibly judge that person because they choose to be on maintenance program? It is not an ideal situation, but could be the best solution for that person. That person is not, however, clean, and should explore the possibility of getting clean. But it is possible that they need the methadone or suboxone just as much as a diabetic needs insulin, for health and survival.

I'm sure that you know that it was wrong for you to lie . . . kind of a silly question, since you already know the answer!

I would not rat her out, but I would encourage her to get honest with her sponsor. People don't like to carry secrets, and she knows that this isn't right or good for her program. That's why she told you . . . she's sort of hoping you rat her out so that she doesn't have to carry the responsibility of the lie. If she really wanted it kept secret, she wouldn't have told you. Don't play her game - put the responsibility back on her, where it belongs, and tell her that she should get honest.

Maybe we need a recognition for "semi-clean" - an acknowledgement that someone has followed a legal drug program like methadone or suboxone, or even opiates as prescribed. I think that's an accomplishment, and something worthy of celebration; a step in the right direction.

[Gmoney]

12 months on Meth????

That's just it...according to how I understand what was written...the person referred to here has admitted to being on methadone for "several months." I don't know about you, but when I hear the word "several" I usually think 3 or 4 at the most. So, they haven't been taking methadone for a year...but it was mentioned that they're coming up on a year anniversary.

I touched on it already, but seems like I'm the only one that has noticed how fishy this smells. If they're taking methadone for withdrawals from hydrocodone at 8 months into their process...what did they do for withdrawal before then? Were they taking anything before the methadone? And if not...why wait until you've gone 8 or 9 months without anything to start? There's a whole lot missing here that hasn't been explained, but according to what is shared, dishonesty and deception is certainly at hand.

Like Steve, I hate to see this "oh so tired" debate get kicked up again and again. Anytime the question comes up about clean time for members who are involved in drug replacement programs, a debate ensues when it really shouldn't be, IMO. Fingers start to point and accusations are made. From what I understand, the Fellowship of NA is already accepting, welcoming and loving towards it's members who are striving to get clean through various means. Sure...there are some members who may not be as loving and caring as others when it comes to this, but they are not NA as a whole. Those who believe they are "superior" need to check themselves and remember their own story, IMO. Yet, the bottom line (as I see it) is that NA cannot be all things to all people...nor should it be.

One of the main goals of recovery in NA is to live life on it's own terms without the use of drugs. IMO, this shouldn't change.

I think it sucks that the overwhelming majority of people I know in NA seem to think that you are not clean if you are using Meds prescribed by a doctor to withdrawl as not being clean.

I don't know about that one, Steve. But what I do know is that we addicts are masters of deception and manipulation. And as the literature says, "Often our minds will manufacture additional pain as an excuse to use." Or better yet... "Often doctors didn't understand our dilemma. They tried to help by giving us medication...We tried substituting one drug for another but this only prolonged our pain." As I'm sure we will most likely all agree - there are those for whom drug replacement therapy is vital to achieving recovery. Unfortunately, there are also those who are unwilling to go to "any lengths" and prefer the easier, softer way. For some, drug replacement isn't needed... it's just wanted. And as our 3rd Tradition says, "An addict who does not want to stop using will not stop using."

Maybe we need a recognition for "semi-clean" - an acknowledgement that someone has followed a legal drug program like methadone or suboxone, or even opiates as prescribed. I think that's an accomplishment, and something worthy of celebration; a step in the right direction.

I disagree. IMO, NA (the program) is just fine the way it is. Either you're clean or you're not. NA has no opinion on legal matters or medical matters, but the real accomplishment and step in the right direction is becoming a member and striving for freedom from active addiction. We're members of equal status, freely helping one another to get clean & stay clean.

[Ophiuchus]

For me I prefer it straight up. This is way to serious a disease to be politically correct or babying. I lost 3 friends to the ******* this year. When I'm put in a situation like yours I attempt to look at it at face value. Due the math "several months" almost a year? Hum? My withdrawals lasted for 5 solid days of hell followed by 2 months of flew like symptoms. and to date 9 months of fog lifting. If I were to have any Quack prescribe Meth to me knowing I'm an addict after lets just say 4 months of clean time I would be out of their office so quick it would make their heads spin. I heard the other day a pot smoker was put on suboxone for their symptoms flippin drug companies and Doctors are in bed together it makes me sick with how they play with peoples lives. Sorry I digress. One thing I definitely found in NA is the lying that used to come so natural to me no causes me physical discomfort, I think by asking the question you know in your heart it is wrong. You made a promise to your friend so just like in my addiction I compound one lie with another. I cant come up with a good reason to have to tell your sponsor anything unless of course they should ask you directly,and you could always respond with "I would rather not say" or if your sponsor life should be directly threatened by it, then you might have a moral responsibility. As a matter of fact sometimes your sponsor might not want to know.
Please remember the above statement is not made in order rule censor or dictate your behavior it's just my opinion.
good luck

[Timebuster]

Sorry guys…

First of all I am not holding on to someone else’s Guilt.

One year anniversary is coming up and you drop a bombshell like that on my lap. Then you ask me to not tell our sponsor. Sorry my so call friend. My recovery and serenity come first before I hold Guilt for someone else.

When I was running the streets. Its call snitching/rating out. Today in recovery its call saving my *ss. I am not holding on to someone else’s Guilt.

To the original poster. There is to many question to your story that needs further explanation.

Sorry, I cant be as NA politically correct as some of the other posters here.

Happy Holidays
Ivan

[navysteve]

but seems like I'm the only one that has noticed how fishy this smells.

I agree Gary. I justs didn't say anything

First of all I am not holding on to someone else’s Guilt.

I take a different view, first off, I am not holding on to anyone elses guilt by not telling their sponsor. I believe that will do nothing good. We used to say things like recovery is an inside job I believe, just like "I" had to be the one to admit that "I" was an addict, "I", and only "I" can get honest with me. People told me for quite awhile that I was an addict. Where did that get me??? More isolated...

I am not advocating co-signing someone elses bullshit. If I smell it, I call it. But the rest is between them and everyone else. I have been to alot of funerals in the rooms also

Three of these that are indispensable are honesty, open-mindedness, and willingness. With these we are well on our way.

[Timebuster]

CHAPTER FIVE: Personality Change

We came to NA fractured, broken, and self-centered creatures. Our sole purpose in life was our own gratification. We found that our ego and fear influenced our thinking. We justified the most outrageous behavior. We were devious, self-seeking and childish people at the beginning of the recovery process. If someone had told us this at our first meeting, we may not have stayed to find out more about recovery. We progress through a gradual 12 Step process. Personality change is an evolutionary process that begins when we learn principles that affect our spirits by working the Steps. This change continues as we begin to practice these principles in all of our affairs. Personality change describes the process that allows us as individuals to establish a new relationship with life. It is a process that unfolds before us when we learn to live the Steps and to apply the Traditions in our lives.

We must learn to be honest to begin this personality change. Many of us came into Narcotics Anonymous with a reputation for taking things that did not belong to us. We have justified our behaviors so often and well that we stopped feeling guilty about this behavior a long time ago. We discovered early in the recovery process that if we were ever going to stop using, we would have to change. We suddenly notice that we no longer put things in our pockets or purses that do not belong to us and we realize that change is happening. We go to meetings and share that we are trying to change ourselves by being more honest. We notice the way that others practice honesty in their affairs and we see that they seem to benefit from the routine. We write about our behavior in an inventory in order to get an honest and objective assessment. We can project a vision of life without this defect in our minds. If we like what we see, we then choose to practice changing this defect to the best of our ability. We make the commitment to practice honesty in all our affairs.

I abuse drugs and drank for thirty years of my life so not to feel. I stole, I lied, I manipulated, I committed adultery, I rob my family blind, I stole from my ex wife’s. In a shooting gallery if you OD I would go through your pockets and leave you there for dead. So trust me when I say this, I didn’t have a ounce of guilt in my body when I perpetrated these sick defects.

We all heard this said ‘Guilt Kills’ prior to my spiritual awakening I had know idea what guilt felt like. I had no feelings of guilt. What so ever. “Now“. Don’t ask me to help you rob a bank with you because I will give up in a NY minuet. Today I feel the feeling of guilt. Is in it wonderful that I can feel the feelings especially of guilt. Today when I feel guilty I will promptly admit it. Working the program of NA I acquired the ability to sustain from all negative, degrading and harmful behaviors. No more onions to re-peel.

A few interesting things I learn from working the program of NA and from my Sponsor. You lie once, the next lie becomes much easier. You steal once, the next time it becomes much easier. You cheat on the one you love once, the next time you don’t think twice. The next time you go to the store and get more change back then what you suppose to get and don’t give it back. Well, the next time it happens it becomes much easier to walk out of the store without feeling guilty. When you hold on to guilt and your shoulders become heaver and heaver. You get my drift here.

When I found the courage to surrender my will over to a Power greater than myself. After doing so, the journey of self-discovery, enlightenment, awareness, and spiritual growth commenced. With this new found discovery of feelings I was able to sit down and take action and honestly write a gut wrenching inventory. The fear, pain, sadness, regrets and past guilt were lifted from that deep hole of my past wrong doings. That life is now filled with serenity, clarity, love, personal growth, self-improvement and guilt free. I have made my amends to the best of my ability to my past.

In recovery I recognize that the rewards of integrity, esteem and a guilt-free conscience outweigh the temporary relief that the old behaviors could bring. Although our personal program for living differs from one to a another, the NA program gives us a set of spiritual principles that work. Over the years, these principles have withstood the personal tests of hundreds of thousands of addicts. Those who helped us have asked only that we help others in return. This is what we do here. First-time situations are the hardest for us to deal with because our minds quickly revert to the old way of thinking. It becomes a debate in our head over recovery on one hand and addiction on the other. Both are so powerful that it's easy to lose sight of self. Before “I” came to NA, “I” never even had a chance because “I” never saw anything but addiction. I to been to many funerals in my recovery life. I would hate to have the guilt of another.

Today I learned how to be humble, to regain freedom from pride and arrogance. Once in a blue moon we have to take our NA structure and put it to the side and think with our hearts. I know I do.

Ivan

[Gmoney]

Ivan,

What book did that qoute come from?

[bob_sapp]

1. Does anyone agree with me that this is not being "clean"
2. Is it wrong that I lied to them?
3. How do I handle not telling my sponsor - who I've of course always been
nothing but honest with?

1. Hmmm... maybe not. I was on methadone, but got off it way before I went into the program. There's nothing wrong with going on methadone (for a FINITE period of time, I think it sucks if you settle for being on it for life), but I could never have done anything in the program when I was on it. I see people in the program who take syroquil and other pills, and ironically they seem less sober to me than the few methadone'ers I know. So, this is a pretty grey area to me and should be judged case by case.

2.I think we have to just ignore some people's glaring flaws, omissions, and denials in the program if we want to keep the peace. I think I lie by omission all the time in the rooms because I don't tell certain people to get fu**ed. I also try not to judge people in the program... at least as much as I used to. There is a fine line between calling people on their bullshit/rigorous honesty and being too aggressive and basically intolerant. It is tough to find a balance.

3. If they made you promise not to tell the sponsor, they obviously feel guilty about something. The truth will reveal itself, maybe you should just step back and let things take their course.

Maybe you should just tell this person exactly what you think, and then be done with the matter so it stops eating at you.