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I want to know how NA members feel about MMT patients

Old 07-09-2008, 11:10 PM
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I want to know how NA members feel about MMT patients

I have read some sad stories online about MMT patients attending NA meetings and being met with animosity about being on methadone maintenance to help them stay clean from illegal opiates. I used to be on MMT, I didn't attend NA during the time I was on the clinic because I thought I would be criticized and I am very sensitive. Am I right or am I just reading too much into a few bad stories? Please, anyone that can let me know their opinion on MMT patients as NA members, whether your thoughts and opinions on them are that they should not be on MMT and until they are off MMT they are considered not clean, OR, the other side of the coin, an NA member(s) that thinks MMT patients have just as much a right to be considered clean as any NA member (due to the fact that they are on physician prescribed medication to deal with their severe disease of addiction). Let me know. I'm not asking so that I can take sides, I just have a healthy interest in knowing how other's feel so that I can validate or invalidate my feelings about not wanting to attend NA while on MMT because I thought I wasn't clean. Thanks.

Jaz
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Old 07-10-2008, 12:11 AM
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If you want to know what many NA members think about DRT, here's a good start:

Regarding Methadone and Other Drug Replacement Programs

I don't know what you've read online, but I've witnessed a number of people who were on DRT (Drug Replacement Therapy) that felt as though they were being alienated by members who didn't consider them "clean." Some became very defensive and lashed out. Some got depressed and withdrew or ran. Because I didn't become addicted to a substance that required any type of medication to manage withdrawal, I have no 1st hand experience with DRT. Yet, I know many, many NA members who were addicted to opiates that never used DRT - they detoxed in a facility or "kicked" cold turkey.

But since you asked for opinions, I have one based on my understanding of the NA program. NA is a program of complete or "total" abstinence of all mood-changing or mind-altering substances. NA also teaches that "substituting one drug for another" is not the NA way. Because drug replacement therapy is optional, IMO, and not the solution to drug addiction...I view it as a tapering process as opposed to abstinence. Tapering or "weening off" drugs, IMO, isn't the same as being clean.

Most groups have clean time requirements for service positions, but being clean isn't a requirement for NA membership. People on DRT have as much a right to NA membership as those who got clean without DRT.
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Old 07-10-2008, 12:33 AM
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Thank you for sharing Gmoney. I also have a question about those individuals who medically have to use opiates be it Methadone, MS Contin, Oxycontin as pain relievers due to illness and injury (for example, chronic pain sufferers). I am not on MMT, it wasn't right for me, but I am a chronic pain sufferer who was advised by a pain specialist to try several medications until I found only one that works for my type of pain (and it is a narcotic), that I will most likely be on for the rest of my life. Does this also make me "not clean" in the eyes of NA? I can somewhat understand MMT patients not being considered clean because its a substitution of one drug for another specifically FOR addiction which is the disease that NA is helping other members to fight against. But for us pain patients that have no choice but to be on long-term narcotic pain relievers for tough illnesses and conditions, what of us? Can we be counted as clean as long as our doctor prescribes us the medication, we take it as prescribed, stay active in NA, have a trusting and loving sponsor, and have someone else (a non-addict) giving us our medication on a daily basis instead of the addict being in charge of the medication? I just want to know because I love NA but I still feel unsure that I'll be accepted because I am still on narcotics, but not for maintenance (I wasn't on MMT for maintenance either, I had to use it for pain management while I had no insurance, so they found out and had me wean off the MMT program and find a pain mgt doctor who accepts uninsured patients, they were nice about it because I am an addict and they didn't want me to give up on recovery just because I have chronic pain). So what's the word on this? Thanks.

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Old 07-10-2008, 01:01 AM
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NA has a booklet called, "In Times of Illness," and I think you'll find the answers you need there.

The topic of DRT or Methadone has been discussed here before. Here's an old thread you may find interesting.

http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...ml#post1456839

As far as medication for an illness or injury goes...I don't believe there should be any question of a member's clean time unless that member is abusing their medication. NA tells us that we addicts are great ones for manipulating the truth and our bodies can hardly tell the difference between drugs taken for an illness and those we took to get high. Some of us will imagine we're in more pain than we really are just to take more drugs. We have to be very careful.
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Old 07-10-2008, 01:17 AM
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I think if folks spent less time pointing fingers, and more time keeping their own stuff in order, alot of stuff would be better for alot of people. But then there's that whole ego thing and what not....

Opps! I just said that outloud didn't I?!
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Old 07-10-2008, 08:36 AM
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I actually thought it was a good question. We have a few folks who come over from the methodone program and one guy just asked us if he was clean. No one really knew. His girlfriend nods off during every meeting. She just asked me to be her sponsor.

Thanks for posting the NA literature Garry! I am going to print it out.

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Old 07-10-2008, 08:49 AM
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I know where NA stands on this. I try have a lot of tolerance when it comes to this issues. But I have to remind myself, to stop looking outside of myself and pay attention to my recovery. The doors to the meetings open both ways.

My higher power of my understanding, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change; courage to change the things I can; and wisdom to know the difference.

Ivan
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Old 07-10-2008, 10:16 AM
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Thanks Ivan. I really love the beautiful simplicity of your post. You captured the spirit of NA and recovery there.

I'm tapering off suboxone. I have clinical depression and it has been suggested by my doc to take it slowly because I can become very depressed coming off of suboxone. Suboxone is used to treat depression in some clinical studies with good results and also off-label by my doctor and others. My doc thinks that I should stay on it instead of going back to wellbutrin. I don't know about that. I would like to be off of everything, but that isn't realistic given my mental health history. So it isn't going to happen.
But I will eventually be off suboxone and try other anti-depressants. I'm looking forward to that with a mixture of fear and hope.

If I follow the NA bulletin on this issue 100%, it suggests that we don't share 24 hours after using any substance. So NA is suggesting for members on replacement therapy not to share where they are for months, or sometimes it takes even 2 years to taper.

My opinion is slightly different. I think that if you are on enough methadone to make you noddy, even a little spacey, you should come to the meeting, and wait to share until after the meeting. But when you get your doseage under control to where you are alert, I think that sharing is appropriate.

I shared when I was still using pain pills. I wasn't all jacked up and spacey, but it had been less than 24 hours, cause I used every day. It is up to the group you are at, because the NA guideline is just a suggestion. All the groups I attend regularly like for everyone to share, even if they are a bit high, as long as they can be understood.

You can get a very good message from someone who is still out there struggling, I think. Reminds you where you came from. And lets us know who we need to reach out to after the meeting. How else would we know?

And I don't agree with moralizing about replacement therapy. I believe that for some people, who've tried every other way, like me, like BV, it was the only thing that worked. I hate to hear a crack-addict talking about how methadone or suboxone is "not needed" for my recovery. If you haven't had a physical oppiate addiction, you have no understanding of that at all. In fact, you can't understand what it is work my recovery, because you aren't me.

I've recently seen home group members shame a suboxone patient into going off his medicine too fast for him (and for his doc). He ended up right back on the street, and is now homeless and suffering.

We are different people. We have to accept people for where they are and love them wherever they are, or they won't be able to stay around long enough to get better. Just my two cents. Let people be where they are. Patience.
KJ
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Old 07-10-2008, 11:54 AM
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You might find the "In Times Of Illness" NA pamphlet useful. I think some of the text is relevant. I'm a new member so I can't post a link yet, but you can google it easily enough.

I recently had back surgery, and after informing the doctor that I'm an addict in recovery (8 yrs clean) they advised that I'd need a nominal amount of pain killer. Upon discharge I refused any prescriptions, and I have a better perspective regarding the difficulties addicts have in finding compassion and support when they are on prescribed medication.

From the pamphlet:
"Narcotics Anonymous as a whole has no opinion on outside issues, including health issues. We are concerned with recovery from the disease of addiction. Although our recovery is complicated when we experience disease or injury, this does not have to lead us away from recovery...

...The use of medication in recovery is often controversial. It’s good to remember that the Basic Text recommends consulting professionals concerning our medical problems. When we remember that the only requirement for membership is a desire to stop using, we as members can set aside our judgment of others. Clean time is an issue for each of us to resolve individually with our sponsor and our Higher Power. An attitude of judgment on our part could cause great harm to another addict..."
I know this is a slightly different subject, but since it's related I thought I'd add my two cents. Take what you want and leave the rest.
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Old 07-10-2008, 12:51 PM
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If I follow the NA bulletin on this issue 100%, it suggests that we don't share 24 hours after using any substance. So NA is suggesting for members on replacement therapy not to share where they are for months, or sometimes it takes even 2 years to taper.
I'm not sure whether that's the intent behind the suggestion, KJ. And please keep in mind that it is only a suggestion...not a rule or law. My opinion is that the bulletin if referring to those "under the influence" refraining from sharing in our meetings. To me, that means someone who is high on a drug. I believe the main suggestion that most groups adhere to is not allowing "using" members to lead a meeting, be a speaker, or hold certain service positions. The Basic Text tells us that "pain shared is pain lessened." So I, personally, believe that a member who has a need to share, should share.

And I don't agree with moralizing about replacement therapy. I believe that for some people, who've tried every other way, like me, like BV, it was the only thing that worked. I hate to hear a crack-addict talking about how methadone or suboxone is "not needed" for my recovery. If you haven't had a physical oppiate addiction, you have no understanding of that at all. In fact, you can't understand what it is work my recovery, because you aren't me.
I started out in this thread by sharing that I had no personal experience with opiate addiction or withdrawal..and I don't. I also shared that what I would offer is my understanding of the NA program and my opinion based on that understanding. I've shared on numerous threads here at SR that I'd be the last one on earth to tell anyone what they should or shouldn't do. We, as NA members, have the final say as to what we should do for ourselves regarding personal issues (including physical health issues and mental health issues). IMO, advice is best given after it is asked for, yet I'd never advise anyone to do something I have no experience in myself. Actually, I rarely give advice at all...I share my ES&H because it has more weight.

"Remember that we, not our doctors, are ultimately responsible for our recovery and our decisions." - Basic Text, page 99

My group had a member with mental health issues for many years (she recently changed groups) and no one ever questioned her clean time. She openly shared about her problems with medications and finding balance, but she never shared specifically what the medications were (and no one asked). Like Cam recently shared, clean time is an issue each of us has to come to terms with, for ourselves. I was on anti-depressants for almost 3 years in early recovery, but I rarely shared about it nor did I consider myself not clean (wellbutrin, zoloft, & prozac).

If you (or anyone) were to ask me whether you are clean or not, my question in response would be, "What do YOU think?" But when asked about NA's view or asked to speak generally (as I have), I'll offer my understanding.
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Old 07-10-2008, 01:58 PM
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I would never tell ppl they couldn't share at a meeting unless they were obviously high and spacey. Heck, if I even told the 2 we have on MMT not to share, they would probably leave and not return. I kind of feel sorry for them, they said it was 15 dollars a day (Each)! They told us that there are 500 ppl in the area on it. 500 x 15 a day = 7500 bucks a day they are making off addicts. That is over 225,000 a month! I think they are crooks. The same doc said after to meeting on the way to the parking lot to me, if I was a really unethical doc I would open a methodone clinic and make big money. I think it is bondage and I think it is sad.

I didn't even think or really remember hearing about methodone when I had my most difficult detox in Jan 06. I was sick for 10 days and I wanted to go to the ER for the first 24 hours cuz I felt like I couldn't breathe. It was weird. Had I known, I may have gone for it, but hubby wanted me just to stick it out.

Agreed, I do not think we should take others inventory. The guy who came though, asked right out if he was clean or not cuz he had not used herion for 18 mths. No one knew, one guy who has 7 yrs and is a doc told him yes. I did not know the literature was available.

I am not going to back tract and shove it in his face. I am happy he is clean off shooting herion and coming to the meetings, he is working and has a new baby. He said he is down now to 15 mls?? now?

I am just glad to be informed literature wise.

Sheila :-D
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Old 07-10-2008, 09:20 PM
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Apparently, drug replacement therapy doesn't work for everybody.

http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...ml#post1831054
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Old 07-11-2008, 02:28 AM
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I believe that, as our literature says, only the desire to stop using is required for membership. As for sharing, well, we share ESH. If your're gonna give me ESH, great, even though our lit. suggests that you don't. If you're not then keep quiet and listen,It'll probably do you some good. I also believe that the sooner one rids themselves of this slavery the sooner they can be free and start living. I believe that DRT is slavery disguised. I'm not gonna even get into the clean not clean issue.
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Old 07-11-2008, 08:03 AM
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Narcotics Anonymous, In Times of Illness:

Narcotics Anonymous In Times Of Illness
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Old 07-11-2008, 11:39 AM
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Good thread, people. I suggest we close here as, in my experience, we NAs tend to go round and round on this subject and in my experience, it doesn't do any good beyond a certain point. The NA approved resources were given and, again in my experience, I think it's best for each individual to work it out with god and their sponsor as to where they personally stand on the issue.

Thanks!

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Old 07-11-2008, 03:12 PM
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Old 07-11-2008, 03:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Gmoney View Post
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lol
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Old 07-12-2008, 02:30 PM
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As always, Garry.... well said!
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Old 07-12-2008, 05:02 PM
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Old 07-13-2008, 10:00 AM
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Our home group reads the following announcement during the opening of the meeting:
"If you have used today, please listen and talk to somebody after the meeting."
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