Should WSC cover NJ Legal costs?

[need2recover]

Hi,

I was in my home group a couple weeks ago, voting on some questions for the CAR. One of the questions was about the WSC giving northern New Jersey some amount of money, over $30,000. Other home group members mentioned that NJ had been sued.

I went and did some quick research and found that a Steven C. Thompson had sued:

EVA'S VILLAGE AND SHELTERING PROGRAM, ET ALS; DERRICK
WILLIAMS, INDIVIDUALLY; GREGORY ANDERSON, INDIVIDUALLY;
GLORY PEREZ, INDIVIDUALLY; ANTHONY MCCANTS, INDIVIDUALLY;
BRYANT JENKINS, INDIVIDUALLY; GREATER PATERSON AREA, INC.,
ET ALS; WORLD SERVICE ORGANIZATION, INC., ET ALS

The court documents indicate:

Steven C. Thompson sued Narcotics Anonymous World Services, Inc., Eva’s Village and Sheltering Program, and the Greater Paterson Area in New Jersey, among others, claiming that Defendants violated his constitutional rights and unlawfully discriminated against him when they prohibited him from conducting a prayer at Narcotics Anonymous meetings at Eva’s Village in Paterson, New Jersey.

I was told that Steven was asked to close a meeting and the prayer he said was considered unacceptable so he was asked to stop saying it.

The Defendants allegedly denied Plaintiff the right to conduct prayer at Narcotics Anonymous (“NA”) meetings and repeatedly instructed him not to return to future NA meetings held at Defendant Eva’s Village and Sheltering Program (“Eva’s Village”) because of his disruptive behavior. On February 12, 2003, Plaintiff was removed from Eva’s Village by an officer from the Paterson Police Department. He was told that if he returned, he would be arrested and charged with trespassing. A sign was placed on display at Eva’s Village instructing members to call the police should Plaintiff return to the premises. Plaintiff alleges he was denied public access to NA meetings, was discriminated against based on his religion, and suffered religious persecution.

Steven appealed the decisions multiple times. This must have run up some large legal fees for NA World Service, Inc. as well as NA Greater Patterson Area, New Jersey, Inc. I guess the WSC just paid from their reserves but NJ didn't have the cash. Does anyone know more about those details?

Would giving NJ money from WSC set any sort of dangerous precedent?

Thanks

[sticker]

[Gmoney]

I have heard about this lawsuit (through the grapevine) and it baffles me that it has been taken seriously by anyone. The fact that it even made it to court (if it has) sets a precedent, doesn't it? I mean, why should NA even have to defend itself against what I consider a frivilous charge? There's a couple of older threads here at SR where this subject was discussed at length:

http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...ml#post1287028 (Reading The Bible In A NA Meeting?)

http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...hova-vodo.html (Should NA Allow Other Reading Into The Meetings IE Bible, AA BigBook, Jehova, Vodo?)

It is my belief that although a frivilous lawsuit like this cannot be won, the fact that it was brought against NA is a great cause for concern. Because we are a not-for-profit organization, any legal fees we have to pay takes money away from what we have to do everywhere.

Need2recover, you say Steven appealed "the decision" several times - what decision? Was it thrown out of court? (It should've been)

[NoelleR]

So....they didn't like his prayer, eh?.....lol We never had that problem at the Atheist/Agnostic meetings I used to attend.....lolol


NoelleR

[need2recover]

Originally Posted by GarryW

I mean, why should NA even have to defend itself against what I consider a frivilous (sic) charge?

Because in America you can sue for any reason. A better question might be "why didn't it happen sooner"?

Originally Posted by GarryW

There's a couple of older threads here at SR where this subject was discussed at length:

Huh? Those threads don't discuss anything about N/A (or Eva's Village) being sued. They discuss reading the Bible in N/A and I have no evidence that Steven did that.

Originally Posted by GarryW

Need2recover, you say Steven appealed "the decision" several times - what decision? Was it thrown out of court? (It should've been)

I'm not a lawyer. I just located some documents using Google. I can't post links to them yet, but here are the search strings I used:

"STEVEN C. THOMPSON" "world services"

and

"Thompson v. Evas Village"

If you try them make sure you copy them into your Google search exactly quotes and all.

That being said I don't think Steven won anything. He appears to have been representing himself in court. The latest document I have (from 2007) appears to indicate he was appealing motions for a summary judgment against him. Still he caused legal fees to be run up by the defendants.

[Gmoney]

Thanks Need2recover. When I said there were other threads that discussed this subject, I didn't mean the lawsuit...I meant religion in our meetings or Tradition 6 stuff as it relates to NA.

Because in America you can sue for any reason. A better question might be "why didn't it happen sooner"?

This is true, but as I asserted before, just because you can sue doesn't mean you can win. Why it didn't happen sooner? I believe because most people pay attention to the readings and do as we do. I mean, if no one else is saying the Lord's prayer, why be the oddball? We addicts are pretty bright folks...I'm sure this guy knew it wasn't acceptable.

I googled this guy and found this:
http://vls.law.vill.edu/locator/3d/Jan2006/054618np.pdf

Apparently, this guy is a religious fanatic and claims to "freak out" when under stress (yeah...whatever). His case can't be won, so he files lawsuits against everyone that opposes him. On top of that, he wrote threatening letters and sent them to a judge!! Oh yeah...that will get your case won (duh). LOL!!!

[NoelleR]

How sad to see all that time (particulary the work time of the court and attorneys) wasted....when it could be better used in almost any other way...on other more important (?) cases.....? This poor man just doesn't seem to have a life....but he seems to forget that others do.....

All that aside, I've always found prayers, and especially the Lord's Prayer, in AA/NA meetings to be offensive.....if one allows in one type of prayer, theoretically all types of prayers need to be allowed....How much simpler to just disallow all prayers.....and just a moment of silence.....? just a thought..... (o:


NoelleR

[Gmoney]

Just finished talking with a friend that's finishing up law school...she said that in order to recoop some of the legal fees, NA would probably file a countersuit. On top of that, this guy is threading thin water and is looking at having charges brought against him by the courts - so he may end up getting some jail time, too.

[WanChai73]

If this is an opinion poll on whether WSO should pay, my vote would be to split it 50-50 with NJ. Why? Because I think it was a mistake for this group in Patterson to get the police involved, unless this guy Steven was physically violent, does anyone know if he was? My 2 cents... if you get the police involved against someone, they are going to use the law on their end, too.

Groups regularly raise money to pay for things like accounting services, or for the Literature Chair to attend conferences, etc. I think this falls into the 8th tradition, for the NJ area.

- wanchai

[Gmoney]

Word is that NA in New Jersey is already struggling financially and the lawsuit doesn't even name the NJ area (it names NA). It is also rumored that NAWS has spent over $90,000 in legal fees!! What a waste.

[Bryant633]

So, there really are two issues for discussion. First is the group, and their decision to allow only "certain" prayers to close the meeting. It says in our Basic Text that "anything that effects our recovery is material for sharing in a meeting" (taking the quote off my head, may be slightly different.) So I don't agree that a meeting can legislate what a member shares or chooses to say.

That said... I believe deeply in our Traditions, and the 4th Tradition is not an unimportant one. The autonomy it talks about is critical; we do not govern what goes on in meetings. The interpretation of what constitutes a "group" and a "meeting" are left (intentionally) vague.

That autonomy PROTECTS our Fellowship. If groups weren't autonomous, in the sense that NAWS directs the groups, this creates a chain of liability for NAWS to then be responsible for what every group in the world does. Think about that... NAWS could be held responsible, legally and financially, for anything some moron did at any NA meeting anywhere in the world. With close to 50,000 meetings a week, how long before some group somewhere does something that financially bankrupts the entire fellowship? A double-homicide and police stand-off that happened at an NA meeting a few years ago comes to mind.

I pray that the motion to bail out New Jersey by NAWS fails. If NAWS is directed to pay legal fees in a case for a Region, based on what one of the groups in that Region did, the chain of liability will be set for future cases. Our Fellowship will perish.

[Gmoney]

Originally Posted by Bryant633

So, there really are two issues for discussion. First is the group, and their decision to allow only "certain" prayers to close the meeting. It says in our Basic Text that "anything that effects our recovery is material for sharing in a meeting" (taking the quote off my head, may be slightly different.) So I don't agree that a meeting can legislate what a member shares or chooses to say.

That said... I believe deeply in our Traditions, and the 4th Tradition is not an unimportant one. The autonomy it talks about is critical; we do not govern what goes on in meetings. The interpretation of what constitutes a "group" and a "meeting" are left (intentionally) vague....

I beg to differ.

Yes, our Basic Text does tell us that anything that effects our lives can be shared in our meetings (10th Tradition, re: personal opinions), yet it also tells us that we should care and SHARE the NA way. Our 12th step tells us (as a basic guideline) that we should only share our ES&H and our 6th Tradition advises us not to endorse another "organization's" primary purpose - directly or indirectly. NA is not a religious fellowship or program, so to have a closing prayer that's specific to an outside ourganization in inappropriate and conflicts with our Traditions. Even our 3rd Tradition tells us that we should consider carefully how what we share can effect others.

"A Narcotics Anonymous group is any meeting of two or more recovering addicts who meet regularly at a specific time and place for the purpose of recovery from the disease of addiction." ~ IP #2 "The Group"

It can be argued that a group and a meeting are one in the same. It is the group that holds the meeting and develops the format of the meeting. Our 4th Tradition informs us that each group is self-governing and has the freedom to create ways and means to attract members and carry the message. To say that the group doesn't govern what goes on in the meeting ignores the responsibility of the group to maintain an atmoshpere of recovery and to consider the common welfare of the fellowship. Preserving our public reputation and our unity are also responsibilities of an NA group, and if a group takes it upon themselves to endorse a religion through its practices - how long will it be before other groups are affected and non-religious members (or potential members) are ran away?

[Lily]

I do not think that NA as a whole should embrace any said one religion. However that being said this is a spiritual program. As I read my NA book the word God is found 100's of times. The word God is mentioned in step 3, 5, 6, and 11. In the more will be revealed chapter on page 101 it talks of being more God-reliant, harmony with a loving God, dependence on a loving God, grateful for ongoing God-consciousness, we ask God what to do for us what we cannot do for ourselves...etc.

On page 92 We receive guidance when we ask for knowlege of God's will for us. gradually, as we become more God-centered than self centered our despair turns to hope.

While I do not believe that NA is a place for ppl to discuss any one religion, or to try to get folks to conform to any one religion and it is about a God of ones understanding, I am wondering why if this program asks you not to be indifferent about God would anyone ever want to remove the serenity prayer? I can understand the OUR Father prayer offending some ppl though.

I understand that one religious nut is being a jerk and costing the program money but to take God out of NA would personally offend me. We would then have to re-word the steps and re-word the chapters about praying to a higher power, etc. Why? Because a few ppl are offended by a prayer at the end? I thought that was up to the group conscience? Before we know it the ALCU will be involved in NA if it isn't already.

It reminds me of the ppl who are trying to do away with the pledge of allegiance and the "in God we trust" on our money and removing every cross from every mountain. If it bothers ppl, then don't look at it, look away, or don't pray.

Maybe if ppl are offended by God they should start their own Godless program. This program is not a religious program but it does have spiritual principals, and that is why it works.

My opinion, my program.

Sheila

[lilbit]

Yeah...people trip out on the God thing...er...Higher Power thingy. Kinda caught up in the language and all. It's not that hard to just let go...let be. BUT...we love us some God. Dog spelled backwards. We need a visual. A thing. An energy. A MAN in charge...or soo it seems. God is just easy fer all to agree on. Higher Power kinda looks like a hippy new age soft rock band. It gets all messy...and EVERYBODY gets offended....
We humans start wars over this kinda stuff. Fly planes into buildings. Blow up in a crowded market. Not sure if this is what any energy would want us to do over the whole idea....but it's happening...everyday...mostly everywhere. Part of life.
I like E Pluribus Unum- Out of many...ONE. It's on all our American Money. I think THAT'S THE ONLY THING WE CAN AGREE ON...at least at this point.
So...STAY SOBER/CLEAN and let go and let live. Life happens on it's own terms. We...as Americans...think we have the power to control almost anything. Especially the power of control over others. We are masters at it. THAT'S why other countries really don't like us. We act an aweful allot like a GOD. Strange...huh.
Well...nice post. Made me think. Hope there's something you can use out of that.
LOVE YA!
PEACE!
Oh...and God Bless ya!

[Gmoney]

I really didn't intend this thread to go in the direction of God-vs-Godless, and I hope what I've shared wasn't taken that way. My only point was, if NA groups adhere to the non-specific Serenity Prayer, then all will be well. The group was within it's boundaries by informing the guy that we don't do the Lord's prayer in our meetings. I mean, when in Rome...

No one has the right to come into an NA meeting and dictate the group's format. Nor does any member have the right to impose their beliefs on other members. It is appropriate that, when we share about the God of our understanding, we keep the focus on ourselves- sharing about what we (individually) believe, feel, or think - not what YOU SHOULD believe.

"Anyone may join us, regardless of age, race, sexual identity, creed, religion or lack of religion." ~ Basic Text, page 9

"Many of us ended up in jail, or sought help through medicine, religion and psychiatry. None of these methods was sufficient for us." ~ Basic Text, page 13

Although the word "God" is used quite frequently in our literature, the word's meaning can be as varied as our fellowship. NA does not define God/Higher Power for us because this is a personal decision to be reached by each individual member. NA doesn't define spirituality either. All NA suggests is that this power be loving, caring and greater than oneself. I doubt very seriously if the word God would be removed from our literature - it doesn't have to. God..."as we understand"...eliminates every argument.

[Bryant633]

Originally Posted by GarryW

I beg to differ.

Yes, our Basic Text does tell us that anything that effects our lives can be shared in our meetings (10th Tradition, re: personal opinions), yet it also tells us that we should care and SHARE the NA way. Our 12th step tells us (as a basic guideline) that we should only share our ES&H and our 6th Tradition advises us not to endorse another "organization's" primary purpose - directly or indirectly. NA is not a religious fellowship or program, so to have a closing prayer that's specific to an outside ourganization in inappropriate and conflicts with our Traditions. Even our 3rd Tradition tells us that we should consider carefully how what we share can effect others.

"A Narcotics Anonymous group is any meeting of two or more recovering addicts who meet regularly at a specific time and place for the purpose of recovery from the disease of addiction." ~ IP #2 "The Group"

It can be argued that a group and a meeting are one in the same. It is the group that holds the meeting and develops the format of the meeting. Our 4th Tradition informs us that each group is self-governing and has the freedom to create ways and means to attract members and carry the message. To say that the group doesn't govern what goes on in the meeting ignores the responsibility of the group to maintain an atmoshpere of recovery and to consider the common welfare of the fellowship. Preserving our public reputation and our unity are also responsibilities of an NA group, and if a group takes it upon themselves to endorse a religion through its practices - how long will it be before other groups are affected and non-religious members (or potential members) are ran away?

I wasn't very clear in what I posted. What I meant to say is you, I, NAWS and everyone else not a part of this group have no business telling it what to do. I believe strongly in a group's autonomy, and I would like that no one could step in and tell my home group how to operate. This group in NJ should be afforded the same courtesy.

I want groups to choose what works for them to fulfill their primary purpose. I may not agree with what they want to do, but that's not for me to decide. I don't want NAWS, Regions, or Areas to govern what goes on in meetings. The homegroup members of that meeting have the responsibility to focus on recovery in that meeting.

What happened in my original post about this was two separate topics (at least in my head?). The first topic is that I agree that meetings/groups have the right to run their meeting they way they see fit. The second was a much more personal opinion, which is I prefer meetings that don't dictate what a member shares about or what prayer they close with. That type of atmosphere doesn't appeal to everyone, so thankfully not every meeting is the same.

I didn't intend for my post to in any way turn into the "religion v. spirituality" argument. I think we are on the same side of this, actually. Take care!

[Bryant633]

Oh, and we will know how it turns out in a few days, right? Regional motions are voted on Friday, right?

[Lily]

I wasn't offended by anything you said Garry. I didn't mean to get all worked up.... I just don't want ppl in NA to try to remove God as we understand him from the program. I really like the way it is.

Blessings, Sheila

[Gmoney]

Bryant633,

I think we are on the same page - at least as far as the group being self-governing. NAWS, the region, nor the ASC should ever come in and tell a group how to function (per se). Yet, as the group IP also states:

"All Narcotics Anonymous groups are bound by the principles of the Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions of NA."

So, I understand that to mean every group needs to understand (and heed) the second half of Tradition Four: "...except in matters affecting other groups or NA as a whole." You see, autonomy only goes so far because the Steps & Traditions are the guiding principles - and if you or I witness these principles being violated or compromised, we have as much a right as any other NA member to speak up about it. I've even witnessed members joining a renegade group just to have a say in their group conscience. I think it is important to remember that our 12 Traditions are "not negotiable" and are the guidelines that keep our fellowship alive and free.

The second was a much more personal opinion, which is I prefer meetings that don't dictate what a member shares about or what prayer they close with. That type of atmosphere doesn't appeal to everyone, so thankfully not every meeting is the same.

Although I agree that we should never "dictate" what ES&H a member shares, the prayer issue is a whole different ball of wax. We lead by example, not by force. Yet, it is important that we stand for something, lest we'll fall for anything. Allowing religion-specific prayer isn't appealing to many and is certainly contradictory to our 12 Traditions. And you're so right... every meeting isn't the same, and that's a good thing about group autonomy. The negative side (IMO) is that far too many groups aren't following the traditions.

[Bryant633]

Originally Posted by GarryW

Bryant633,
Although I agree that we should never "dictate" what ES&H a member shares, the prayer issue is a whole different ball of wax. We lead by example, not by force. Yet, it is important that we stand for something, lest we'll fall for anything. Allowing religion-specific prayer isn't appealing to many and is certainly contradictory to our 12 Traditions. And you're so right... every meeting isn't the same, and that's a good thing about group autonomy. The negative side (IMO) is that far too many groups aren't following the traditions.

I love how my perceptions of NA meetings and service has changed over time. There have been times when I would have completely agreed with you, and times that I would have scoured everything you wrote looking for a fight. Now, I am at a place I guess where I am seeing the Traditions used as weapons in our service structure, and guidelines being used as a substitute for group conscience and common sense. I agree with what you are saying, and have an additional point. Even though there are groups not following the Traditions, here we are! People are still recovering, groups and Areas are still being born, growing and dying. I know that I can walk into any meeting and find the Fellowship, even if what they are doing is all screwed up.

I think something that I was told that has changed me was by this guy I met who had recently come back from a horrible relapse. He told me "you know, when I don't like what is going on in a meeting, I have to remember that meeting was getting along just fine without me." That gave me a lot to think about. I take great amusement in the idea that even what I am thinking right now will probably be contradictory to what I believe in the future. And I love that I had to dive into my IW:H&W to re-read some things about autonomy and affecting NA as a whole. That rocks to be stimulated like that.

But anyway... back to the original question, should NAWS give NJ some money to cover the expense they incurred defending this (ridiculous) lawsuit? I say no way...

[Gmoney]

Ahhh...once again, through open & honest discussion, I find myself pleasantly pleased at how much we addicts have in common.

Although I've been very outspoken in the past (especially in meetings), I'm a lot more laid back nowadays. When I first came in, I felt as though I had something to prove and I was so very gung-ho. I memorized the literature, studied steps and traditions, took part in step study groups, and the whole 9 yards...but nowadays I often find myself with a "let 'em eat cake" attitude. I had to take a serious step back because I found myself becoming much of what I didn't like about NA (NA Police, NA Purists, service junkies, book thumpers, etc...). Way too many control freaks, circuit speakers, and holy rollers for me!! LOL!!

I resigned from my service positions and cut way back on my meetings. And guess what? I found balance and peace. And guess what else? NA survived without me being around so much. Most of my views haven't changed though...difference is, I usually keep them to myself until I'm asked.

I also agree that NAWS shouldn't fork over any money

[lilbit]

We love a good courtroom drama here...in Joisey. We have more laws than any other state. Lot's a special interest groups...
Lot's a PEOPLE too! In such a small state...not allot of breathing room...or elbow room. So...we have allot to say. Lot's of politickin goin on. AND BOY OH BOY! Lawyers are expensive!!
Sometimes I step out the door and feel like I'm breaking the law just for lightin up a ciggie in me own driveway. Can FREAK a person out! We should never be affraid of our gov't .... but here...in Jersey....well....it's only a matter of time before they pass a law fer THAT!
PEACE!
AND GO AND LET GOD BLESS YA'LL!

[lilbit]

Oh...and the attorney fees should be forgiven...screw the lawyers!