What does NA mean by "any mood-changing, mind-altering substance?"
Evolving Addict
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What does NA mean by "any mood-changing, mind-altering substance?"
There are those who consider NA literature "confused" or confusing because it isn't specific about which drugs (or kind of drugs) qualify for abstinence. They believe that, if an addict should be "clean" from ALL DRUGS, it would be virtually impossible to acquire clean time in NA. The most common substances mentioned in their arguments are caffiene (coffee) and nicotine (tobacco). I've tried to explain to the best of my ability, and I was looking to see if any other NA members here could expound.
Don't get undies in a bunch
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Originally Posted by GarryW 
The most common substances mentioned in their arguments are caffiene (coffee) and nicotine (tobacco).
caffiene and nicotine were not known as mood altering drugs when things were written. It would be wise to stay away from them both for health reasons but just by looking about at any meeting you can find ashtrays and coffee pots. If the intent was to include them along with other drugs, ashtrays and coffee pots would not be at meetings.
Evolving Addict
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Thanks Best,
I shared with them about, how back when NA was started, the term "Narcotics" covered all drug categories and that later it became a definition of a specific drug category. I even tried to explain how NA could easily become involved in public controversy by being "drug specific" (Tradition 10), and more importantly, alienate addicts who are addicted to the "wrong" kind of drug(s).
I agree that there's a difference between what is literal and intent. I also agree that reasoning and understanding is required, as opposed to looking for flaws.
I shared with them about, how back when NA was started, the term "Narcotics" covered all drug categories and that later it became a definition of a specific drug category. I even tried to explain how NA could easily become involved in public controversy by being "drug specific" (Tradition 10), and more importantly, alienate addicts who are addicted to the "wrong" kind of drug(s).
I agree that there's a difference between what is literal and intent. I also agree that reasoning and understanding is required, as opposed to looking for flaws.
Lost-n-Found
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Originally Posted by GarryW
I agree that there's a difference between what is literal and intent. I also agree that reasoning and understanding is required, as opposed to looking for flaws.
It's plain silly and senseless to equate Caffiene and Nicotine with the likes of Heroin and Cocaine. I did say in another post that I believe if any substance causes unmanageablity in your life, then it is an issue you must give priority and address immediately!
Evolving Addict
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Thanks 2ala2,
Respecting their anonymity, I won't mention names, but I'll go as far as to say that the person's I'm referring to are working "a" program...just not NA's. And this is where I believe the critique is coming from. It's kinda like an indirect put-down ("Your program is confused, and mine isn't.") sort of thing. Mind you, NA requires no defense because the fellowship of NA knows what we mean by "abstinence of all drugs," yet it's difficult to explain to someone who's nitpicking.
I once posted a thread called: "What Is Addiction?" And here's an excerpt that I feel is appropriate -
"The task of defining addiction has challenged physicians, judges, clergy, addicts, their families, and the general public throughout history. There are as many potential definitions as there are groups with an interest in defining addiction. These definitions emphasize such things as physiological dependence, psychological dependence, family dynamics, behavioral problems, and morality. This list could be expanded at length, and NA could come up with its own definition and add it to the list. Fortunately, Tradition Ten steers us away from such public debates. Clearly, debating such issues is not NA's task. Our task is to carry the message of recovery to the addict who still suffers."
It states further:
"What about other kinds of addiction? By the word "addiction" we do, in fact, mean "drug addiction." Our Third Tradition says, "The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop using." Clearly, we mean "... a desire to stop using drugs."
As a fellowship, we place much importance on the fact that we have shifted the focus of our steps off any specific drug and onto the addiction itself. We have done that by wording Step One "powerless over our addiction" rather than "powerless over drugs" or "powerless over narcotics." Any wording of Step One which named specific drugs, or drugs at all, would have stated the principle with much less power than our current wording does."
As it says, just as there are as many potential definitions for addiction as there are groups interested in defining it, the same can and does apply for those attempting to define what is or isn't a drug.
I'll post more later...
Respecting their anonymity, I won't mention names, but I'll go as far as to say that the person's I'm referring to are working "a" program...just not NA's. And this is where I believe the critique is coming from. It's kinda like an indirect put-down ("Your program is confused, and mine isn't.") sort of thing. Mind you, NA requires no defense because the fellowship of NA knows what we mean by "abstinence of all drugs," yet it's difficult to explain to someone who's nitpicking.
I once posted a thread called: "What Is Addiction?" And here's an excerpt that I feel is appropriate -
"The task of defining addiction has challenged physicians, judges, clergy, addicts, their families, and the general public throughout history. There are as many potential definitions as there are groups with an interest in defining addiction. These definitions emphasize such things as physiological dependence, psychological dependence, family dynamics, behavioral problems, and morality. This list could be expanded at length, and NA could come up with its own definition and add it to the list. Fortunately, Tradition Ten steers us away from such public debates. Clearly, debating such issues is not NA's task. Our task is to carry the message of recovery to the addict who still suffers."
It states further:
"What about other kinds of addiction? By the word "addiction" we do, in fact, mean "drug addiction." Our Third Tradition says, "The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop using." Clearly, we mean "... a desire to stop using drugs."
As a fellowship, we place much importance on the fact that we have shifted the focus of our steps off any specific drug and onto the addiction itself. We have done that by wording Step One "powerless over our addiction" rather than "powerless over drugs" or "powerless over narcotics." Any wording of Step One which named specific drugs, or drugs at all, would have stated the principle with much less power than our current wording does."
As it says, just as there are as many potential definitions for addiction as there are groups interested in defining it, the same can and does apply for those attempting to define what is or isn't a drug.
I'll post more later...
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Join Date: Mar 2008
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I currently have 36 days clean, I had 13 months clean...then three months prior to that I had 2 years. However I was never in revcovery. 1st time, I only stayed clean for my daughter and second time I stayed clean for my b/f, figuring he would do it to. Needless to say he pick up and now is inconcerated and is going to pheonix for year.
What I am getting at...is I end up going on a bender bad W/I 2 weeks I went down hill faster than you can say boo. Now I have a sponsor, doing 90/90-building a great network, and getting trully involved. Have a home group, 2 affiliation groups-1 is a beginners and the other is a STEP (really need that)
Anyway I tried to make ammends with my b/fs' parents.....by telling them the truth. Because Jay was making me look like I was a perfect angell and I am tired of living a lie-well it made things sooo much worst and ending making me feel awful and want to use. However my sponsor, meeting (network) were therefore me stayed with my and talked to me-it felt good and because of this program I stayed clean.
Yet I really need to learn the steps-otherwise I will not make, then I need to breath them-how did that work for all oo you-please help.....
Member
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Originally Posted by TISBLESSED
I currently have 36 days clean, I had 13 months clean...then three months prior to that I had 2 years. However I was never in revcovery. 1st time, I only stayed clean for my daughter and second time I stayed clean for my b/f, figuring he would do it to. Needless to say he pick up and now is inconcerated and is going to pheonix for year.
What I am getting at...is I end up going on a bender bad W/I 2 weeks I went down hill faster than you can say boo. Now I have a sponsor, doing 90/90-building a great network, and getting trully involved. Have a home group, 2 affiliation groups-1 is a beginners and the other is a STEP (really need that)
Anyway I tried to make ammends with my b/fs' parents.....by telling them the truth. Because Jay was making me look like I was a perfect angell and I am tired of living a lie-well it made things sooo much worst and ending making me feel awful and want to use. However my sponsor, meeting (network) were therefore me stayed with my and talked to me-it felt good and because of this program I stayed clean.
Yet I really need to learn the steps-otherwise I will not make, then I need to breath them-how did that work for all oo you-please help.....
Many times in our recovery, the old bugaboos will haunt us. Life may again become meaningless, monotonous, and boring. We may tire mentally in repeating our new ideas and tire physically in our new activities, yet we know that if we fail to repeat them we will surely take up our old practices.
Evolving Addict
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Originally Posted by TISBLESSED
I currently have 36 days clean, ....
...Anyway I tried to make ammends with my b/fs' parents.....by telling them the truth. Because Jay was making me look like I was a perfect angell and I am tired of living a lie-well it made things sooo much worst and ending making me feel awful and want to use. However my sponsor, meeting (network) were therefore me stayed with my and talked to me-it felt good and because of this program I stayed clean.
Yet I really need to learn the steps-otherwise I will not make, then I need to breath them-how did that work for all oo you-please help.....
I first want to congratulate you on your 36 days. Keep up the good work and give yourself a break. Secondly, I wanted to comment on your attempt to make amends. It has been my experience that making amends too early can backfire when our motives aren't correct. I found that, in doing step work, I should make amends when I get to Step 9 (timing is an essential part of this step) and when I'm doing it for me, not anyone else. Generally speaking, staying clean and working my program is the best amends I can make (aside from not repeating past damage). I believe the steps worked for me just like everyone else who has worked them: by following directions and one day at a time.
Getting back to the topic:
For me, there's a number of qoutes in the literature that gives NA members a clue as to what is meant by "any mood-changing, mind-altering substance." I also believe that we should always keep in mind [1] NA's message (an addict, any addict, can stop using drugs, lose the desire to use and find a new way of life) and [2] it's primary purpose (to carry the message to the addict still sick and suffering).
BT, page 3: "As addicts, we are people whose use of any mind-altering, mood-changing substance causes a problem in any area of life. Addiction is a disease that involves more than the use of drugs. "
One could conclude from the above excerpt that, "causes a problem in any area of life," could be the guideline.
BT, page 9: "N.A. is a nonprofit Fellowship or society of men and women for whom drugs had become a major problem....We are not interested in what or how much you used or who your connections were, what you have done in the past, how much or how little you have, but only in what you want to do about your problem and how we can help."
BRB
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My 2 cents. From the Basic Text, Chapter One:
"Very simply, an addict is a man or a woman whose life is controlled by drugs...
As addicts, we are people whose use of any mind-altering, mood-changing substance causes a problem in any area of life. Addiction is a disease which involves more than simple drug use."
What this says to me is that it is not the drug so much as the loss of control and problems in life. For most people, caffeine and nicotine do not cause nearly the loss of control and life problems that come from using alcohol, cocaine, speed, pot, etc. Caffeine and nicotine are drugs, they are addictive, they mildly alter one's mood, but they usually do not cause the major life problems or loss of control that other drugs do. So, for me, I need to focus on the loss of control the drug causes in my life. If I do any drug that makes me feel high (e.g. changes my mood/mind in a major way) then it could cause a problem for me. But I can (and do) take some drugs today that do not have this effect, such as caffeine, aspirin, and tylenol
It is a tricky part of the program, that's for sure.
As addicts, we are always looking for an excuse to use something that gives us a buzz. We have to be careful about that and honest with ourselves. So far, I have drinking coffee has not destroyed my life after 23 years clean; it has not made me want to use other drugs, etc. But if coffee started to become a problem, I would need to address my use of that drug.
"Very simply, an addict is a man or a woman whose life is controlled by drugs...
As addicts, we are people whose use of any mind-altering, mood-changing substance causes a problem in any area of life. Addiction is a disease which involves more than simple drug use."
What this says to me is that it is not the drug so much as the loss of control and problems in life. For most people, caffeine and nicotine do not cause nearly the loss of control and life problems that come from using alcohol, cocaine, speed, pot, etc. Caffeine and nicotine are drugs, they are addictive, they mildly alter one's mood, but they usually do not cause the major life problems or loss of control that other drugs do. So, for me, I need to focus on the loss of control the drug causes in my life. If I do any drug that makes me feel high (e.g. changes my mood/mind in a major way) then it could cause a problem for me. But I can (and do) take some drugs today that do not have this effect, such as caffeine, aspirin, and tylenol
It is a tricky part of the program, that's for sure.
As addicts, we are always looking for an excuse to use something that gives us a buzz. We have to be careful about that and honest with ourselves. So far, I have drinking coffee has not destroyed my life after 23 years clean; it has not made me want to use other drugs, etc. But if coffee started to become a problem, I would need to address my use of that drug.
Evolving Addict
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Thanks Rez,
I agree that, if the use of a substance causes a problem, then that should be something to "abstain" from...and that goes for "any" substance.
I asked a number of local members what they thought on this subject, and most agreed that NA history plays a major part. Back in 1953 when NA was formed, there wasn't much concern for what we call a drug today. Heroin was the big demon. Over time, more and more drug addicts came to NA with a variety of different drug addictions (cocaine, pills, etc..) and the issues of comparing, disunity and prejudice had to be addressed. The literature (or language) is written in general terms as not to place importance of one drug over another, and to keep the focus on the disease of addiction - the the specific drugs we became addicted to.
Some things about NA and NA literature may never be fully understood by folks who aren't NA members. What comes to mind is the NA Symbol (or the AA symbol for that matter). Non-members can look at it and never really know what it stands for due to the "occult and esoteric connotations" found in their outlines, "but foremost in the minds of the Fellowship are easily understood meanings and relationships." I come away with thinking that it goes: we get it...you don't, and you don't have to...but if you're like us, you will.
If NA used the word "narcotic" in its 1st Step, the focus would be on a specific group or class of drugs instead of the disease addiction - there's a wide range of drugs that people get addicted to that aren't really narcotics, yet they are in fact "drug addicts" who suffer from the same disease as the narcotic addict suffers from.
Our literature tells us that NA is a "universal and total program that has room within it for all manifestations of the recovering person." Someone could read that and think that they could go to NA with a gambling problem, a sex problem, or food problem right? Well, of course they can go to NA, but once they got there they'd find out what it's about and wouldn't be able to identify. Now, for the drug addict who comes to NA and later realizes they have a problem with food, gambling or sexual behaviors (addiction), they find that the NA program can address these areas as well.
"All drugs" simply means, for most NA members, that it isn't about putting down the crack pipe and picking up a bottle of Remy, or a prescription for ocxy's. As I shared before, addicts don't come to NA unless they have a drug problem or believe they have a drug problem. I think that's a given, but once you get here, they'll find that recovery in NA is not about substitution or getting high on anything. "Abstinence from all drugs" means don't get high...period. It doesn't mean you can't take a Tylenol for a headache or a Tums for upset stomach. It also doesn't mean you can't smoke a cigarette, have a cup of coffee, or eat a snickers. For me, that's venturing into fanatism because no one comes to NA for an addiction to Tylenol or coffee. But once again, the program can address these areas too, if they become problematic for you.
AA has what is called a "Singleness of Purpose," right? So does NA. Just as AA's focus is the disease of Alcoholism, NA's focus is the disease of Addiction. AA's focus regarding a substance is very narrow and specific, NA's is on the disease and not the substance. This difference alone can be cause of confusion for many.
From my understanding, NA doesn't "try" to include anyone in its fold, yet it doesn't turn people away because they didn't use a specific substance, either. Either you're a drug addict or you're not. We're not interested in what drugs you used because it's not the drug that makes you an addict - it's your reaction to the drugs. Kinda like AA's refer to the "allergy."
I agree that, if the use of a substance causes a problem, then that should be something to "abstain" from...and that goes for "any" substance.
I asked a number of local members what they thought on this subject, and most agreed that NA history plays a major part. Back in 1953 when NA was formed, there wasn't much concern for what we call a drug today. Heroin was the big demon. Over time, more and more drug addicts came to NA with a variety of different drug addictions (cocaine, pills, etc..) and the issues of comparing, disunity and prejudice had to be addressed. The literature (or language) is written in general terms as not to place importance of one drug over another, and to keep the focus on the disease of addiction - the the specific drugs we became addicted to.
Some things about NA and NA literature may never be fully understood by folks who aren't NA members. What comes to mind is the NA Symbol (or the AA symbol for that matter). Non-members can look at it and never really know what it stands for due to the "occult and esoteric connotations" found in their outlines, "but foremost in the minds of the Fellowship are easily understood meanings and relationships." I come away with thinking that it goes: we get it...you don't, and you don't have to...but if you're like us, you will.
If NA used the word "narcotic" in its 1st Step, the focus would be on a specific group or class of drugs instead of the disease addiction - there's a wide range of drugs that people get addicted to that aren't really narcotics, yet they are in fact "drug addicts" who suffer from the same disease as the narcotic addict suffers from.
Our literature tells us that NA is a "universal and total program that has room within it for all manifestations of the recovering person." Someone could read that and think that they could go to NA with a gambling problem, a sex problem, or food problem right? Well, of course they can go to NA, but once they got there they'd find out what it's about and wouldn't be able to identify. Now, for the drug addict who comes to NA and later realizes they have a problem with food, gambling or sexual behaviors (addiction), they find that the NA program can address these areas as well.
"All drugs" simply means, for most NA members, that it isn't about putting down the crack pipe and picking up a bottle of Remy, or a prescription for ocxy's. As I shared before, addicts don't come to NA unless they have a drug problem or believe they have a drug problem. I think that's a given, but once you get here, they'll find that recovery in NA is not about substitution or getting high on anything. "Abstinence from all drugs" means don't get high...period. It doesn't mean you can't take a Tylenol for a headache or a Tums for upset stomach. It also doesn't mean you can't smoke a cigarette, have a cup of coffee, or eat a snickers. For me, that's venturing into fanatism because no one comes to NA for an addiction to Tylenol or coffee. But once again, the program can address these areas too, if they become problematic for you.
AA has what is called a "Singleness of Purpose," right? So does NA. Just as AA's focus is the disease of Alcoholism, NA's focus is the disease of Addiction. AA's focus regarding a substance is very narrow and specific, NA's is on the disease and not the substance. This difference alone can be cause of confusion for many.
From my understanding, NA doesn't "try" to include anyone in its fold, yet it doesn't turn people away because they didn't use a specific substance, either. Either you're a drug addict or you're not. We're not interested in what drugs you used because it's not the drug that makes you an addict - it's your reaction to the drugs. Kinda like AA's refer to the "allergy."
*Grateful*
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Midwest
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I think for me, it would have to mean anything I can get high on. Any kind of narcotics. I take a mild antidepressant, for me, this isn't a problem, in fact I function better when I take it and am more pleasant to be around. (25mg of zoloft) I also take advil, tylenol, etc.
I have never been unable to function or felt guilty taking these. I know what could be a possible trigger and will steer clear....I also know the addict in me could discover a "new DOC too" so I be careful.....
Today I have 60 days and feel really great!
Sheila
I have never been unable to function or felt guilty taking these. I know what could be a possible trigger and will steer clear....I also know the addict in me could discover a "new DOC too" so I be careful.....
Today I have 60 days and feel really great!
Sheila
*Grateful*
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Midwest
Posts: 2,619
Sure have Garry!
I went to one last night and got my 60 days...(2 months) and went to one on Saturday night and am going to one on Thursday night, Friday night and Saturday nights!
Thanks Garry!
Sheila
I went to one last night and got my 60 days...(2 months) and went to one on Saturday night and am going to one on Thursday night, Friday night and Saturday nights!
Thanks Garry!
Sheila
Evolving Addict
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I just got an email from one of the members in my local area. I posed the same question to him (the topic) and he suggested that anyone who wonders about it can read the Basic Text Preface and the Introduction: especially this excerpt;
"Alcoholism is too limited a term for us; our problem is not a specific substance, it is a disease called addiction. We believe that as a fellowship, we have been guided by a Greater Consciousness, and are grateful for the direction that has enabled us to build upon a proven program of recovery.
We come to Narcotics Anonymous by various means and believe that our common denominator is that we failed to come to terms with our addiction. Because of the variety of addicts found in our fellowship, we approach the solution contained within this book in general terms..."
"Alcoholism is too limited a term for us; our problem is not a specific substance, it is a disease called addiction. We believe that as a fellowship, we have been guided by a Greater Consciousness, and are grateful for the direction that has enabled us to build upon a proven program of recovery.
We come to Narcotics Anonymous by various means and believe that our common denominator is that we failed to come to terms with our addiction. Because of the variety of addicts found in our fellowship, we approach the solution contained within this book in general terms..."
Member
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I didn't come to NA to stop drinking coffee or smoking cigarettes. These substance were not causing me problems and they didn't get me high. When I wanted my drug of choice and couldn't get it, I never thought, "oh, no worry, I can get high off a cup of coffee and a cigarette or a bar of chocolate." To me, that didn't get me high at all. No, I wanted my drug of choice or something else that would get me high.
Reach Out and Touch Faith
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Originally Posted by REZ
I didn't come to NA to stop drinking coffee or smoking cigarettes. These substance were not causing me problems and they didn't get me high. When I wanted my drug of choice and couldn't get it, I never thought, "oh, no worry, I can get high off a cup of coffee and a cigarette or a bar of chocolate." To me, that didn't get me high at all. No, I wanted my drug of choice or something else that would get me high.
Evolving Addict
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I honestly think that some folks (no one particularly in mind) like to try to poke holes in the NA program. I also think the same thing is done towards other programs as well. You can't please everyone...and it is a waste of time to even try.
I've argued/debated in previous threads about issues similar to this topic, and the end is always the same. I conclude that some don't understand simply because they don't want to - not that they can't. It often boils down to the same old "My program is better than yours" bulls__t.
Although my experience isn't unlimited, I've never heard of anyone saying, "I smoke too many cigarettes...maybe I should go to NA!! Yeah...that's the ticket." And I've never heard of any NA member denouncing their clean time because of drinking coffee, overeating, gambling, taking a laxative or a Tylenol.
It's ridiculous.
I've argued/debated in previous threads about issues similar to this topic, and the end is always the same. I conclude that some don't understand simply because they don't want to - not that they can't. It often boils down to the same old "My program is better than yours" bulls__t.
Although my experience isn't unlimited, I've never heard of anyone saying, "I smoke too many cigarettes...maybe I should go to NA!! Yeah...that's the ticket." And I've never heard of any NA member denouncing their clean time because of drinking coffee, overeating, gambling, taking a laxative or a Tylenol.
It's ridiculous.
Member
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Houston, TX
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I wasn't going to jump into the fray on this one, but something you said, Garry, gave me such a chortle, I just have to respond.....
You said, "...Although my experience isn't unlimited, I've never heard of anyone saying, 'I smoke too many cigarettes...maybe I should go to NA!! Yeah...that's the ticket.'..." chortle, chortle, chortle..... (o:
I will admit that I used to say things like, "I smoke too many cigarettes," but that's where it ended.....and in fact, I moved into a new apartment six months ago, and no longer smoke in my home (and when I bought my new car two years ago, I committed to not smoking in it).....Well, now that I'm not smoking inside these two places, I've found that I smoke a lot less than I thought ..... about half a pack a day......not bad for a person going on 62, who started smoking at.....well, in my 'young' teens, anyway.....lol
I usually tell folks now.....I don't drink, and I don't do drugs; please leave me my last two mini-vices.....makes me human, donya think.....lol
NoelleR
You said, "...Although my experience isn't unlimited, I've never heard of anyone saying, 'I smoke too many cigarettes...maybe I should go to NA!! Yeah...that's the ticket.'..." chortle, chortle, chortle..... (o:
I will admit that I used to say things like, "I smoke too many cigarettes," but that's where it ended.....and in fact, I moved into a new apartment six months ago, and no longer smoke in my home (and when I bought my new car two years ago, I committed to not smoking in it).....Well, now that I'm not smoking inside these two places, I've found that I smoke a lot less than I thought ..... about half a pack a day......not bad for a person going on 62, who started smoking at.....well, in my 'young' teens, anyway.....lol
I usually tell folks now.....I don't drink, and I don't do drugs; please leave me my last two mini-vices.....makes me human, donya think.....lol
NoelleR
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Originally Posted by NoelleR
I usually tell folks now.....I don't drink, and I don't do drugs; please leave me my last two mini-vices.....makes me human, donya think.....lol
NoelleR
NoelleR
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