Well.....

[Paulie]

I dont know how to title this thread. I am just looking for some feedback. I have not been able to reach my sponsor yet regarding this matter and just wanted to know what some of you thought.

I have a sponsee who smokes pot now and then but does not think she relapses because pot was not her DOC.

Any thoughts on how to approach this?

IMO using is using it does not matter. Heroin was not my DOC but if I pick up and use heroin today I would have relapsed. But if a sponsee does not agree with me on this how do I work the steps with her knowing she is not clean? This is a first for me.

Any thoughts?

[Doug]

My sponsor wouldn't work with me if that was the case, and would probably say something along the lines of- "call me when you're really done using".

I don't know how the sponsor/sponsee relationship could work if one or the other was using. It sounds like she isn't done yet, has not surrendered, and is buried under a mountain of denial. She hasn't had enough pain yet to make the change, and since she still is using, step work isn't gonna do much.

In the Basic Text it talks about getting rid of drug influences before recovery can start, and because she is still using, she doesn't see the reality of the fact that she is still using, even though it's not the DOC. That has very little to do with it.

This one is gonna wear on you Paulie. Good luck with her.

[sticker]

point out int the literature where it says we must abstain from all drugs in order to recover. Kinda one of the basic tenants of our program. we aren't dealing with specific drugs we are dealing with the disease of addiction. If she doesn't agree with you on this suggest she find ppl that have some time under their belt and ask their opinion on this. denial is still a built in response for her at this point.

[ANGELINA243]

In my own opinion--using any mind altering drug would be considered a relapse (with the exception if only it were medically prescribed by a doctor--and used as instructed>not abused). My drug of choice is alcohol--but I did struggle with crystal meth during my last year of drinking. If I smoked/snorted today---even though I go to AA--I personally would consider that to be a relapse--and get a new sobriety date.

When I went to NA a few times they considered alcohol, pot, other street drugs to be one in the same. I remember them saying "a drug is a drug is a drug"--didn't matter what form it came in.

I don't know if your sponsee attends any particular group where she thinks she can "find a loophole" but I think she is trying to find a way to "have her cake and eat it too".

[Paulie]

Yep, my sponsor said the same thing you guys said, exactly what I was thinking.

But that is one of the many things I have learned in NA, to reach out to my sponsor and others to help me make the right choices.

I just saw my sponsee at a meeting and I asked her why she didnt introduce herself as a newcomer, you can guess what she said.

So tomorrow when we meet, I need to explain it to her. And explain to her the value of being honest with herself, with me and with others. I need to explain what being dishonest does to our spirits.

Thanks my friends.

And Doug...you are right, what do you see the codie in me .

[Sugah]

I spent many years in and out of the rooms, in and out of therapy. I read every self-help book I could get my hands on. Until I accepted that I was an addict, straight up, plain and simple, and took the necessary steps (all 12 of them), I could not recover. As long as I was not chemically clean, I couldn't get mentally, emotionally or spiritually clean.

You already know what you're going to do. I'm just chiming in as one more voice of support. There are enough who want help and will go to any length for their recovery without wasting time on someone who's not ready yet. Tell her with love, and let her know it's here for her when she's ready.

Peace & Love,
Sugah

[Gmoney]

Yeah Paulie...

I agree with everyone else on this one. And deep down I believe you already knew the answer, but like yourself, I tend to run my thinking by my support network before making major decisions. Part-time using is using, and what drug we use doesn't matter. Getting high means we're not ready to stop getting high and there's no way we can make an opening on a closed mind. An addict that doesn't want to stop...won't - and if they refuse to accept that using is a relapse...oh well. My concern is that you don't take it personal or don't get yourself down because of their choice. You've done your part...and all you can do now is be there for them when they come back around.

Be blessed.

[SaTiT]

It's about letting go.

That's one of the great lessons as being a sponsor..
otherwise you'll learnd that same lesson under your own roof.lol
There's wasn't anything i did or didn't do that prevented my GF
from using. When it hits home like that..I have to go to al-anon.
Never the less theyre still the same 12 steps.

It's tough sometimes as the years gone by I've met many wonderful
recoverying addicts and I love them.

I don't know if I will be around for them or not.
all i can do is try to move on with my own life and cope as best
I can.

Just lost a good friend..she wasn't an addict.
Not really sure why she has to died and why I'm still alive.
I don't have the answers to why...
Acceptence and Letting go is a son of a bitch...but i don't have to use over it.

[Moontime]

Pg. 87 in the Basic Text- Many of us did the same thing when we were new, so when we work with others we try not to do or say anything that will give them the excuse to continue using. We know that honesty and empathy are essential. Complete surrender is the key to recovery, and total abstinence is the only thing that has ever worked for us. In our experience, no addict who has completely surrendered to this Program has ever failed to find recovery.



For me I couldn't co-sign that I would ask them to look at the first step and where does it talk about specific substances?

[Paulie]

Yep, you are all right, and I did know that but re-inforcments always help .

I will meet with her today and explain to her what I have been taught in the program and that is what I share with her. Using is using.

Getting high means we're not ready to stop getting high and there's no way we can make an opening on a closed mind.

Well said, and I may use those words today

I have had many sponsees over the years come and go. But never this situation before. When a sponsee has relapsed in the past, they knew it and either chose to continue to use or chose to quit again. So this is a new one for me.

Thanks everyone, another example of how I cant do this recovery thing alone.

[Gmoney]

Originally Posted by Moontime

For me I couldn't co-sign that I would ask them to look at the first step and where does it talk about specific substances?

I don't believe it mentions specific substances in the 1st Step, but it does tell us in the literature that any time we use something to change how we feel, we should consider our 1st step. And the 1st step emphasizes the importance of abstinence and ridding ourselves of the notion that we can control our drug use in any form. IMO, any addict that has been involved in NA knows that using marijuana is a relapse. The excuse of "it's not my DOC," is BS and reveals denial.

In Who Is An Addict?, specific drugs are mentioned:

"We dreamed of finding a magic formula that would solve our ultimate problem - ourselves. The fact was that we could not use any mind-altering or mood changing substance, including marijuana and alcohol, successfully." ~Basic Text, page 4

"We tried limiting our usage to social amounts without success. There is no such thing as a social addict." ~ BT, page 14

"Only a complete and total acceptance of the First Step can save us. We must totally surrender ourselves to the program. The first thing to do is stay clean. This makes the other stages of recovery possible.." ~ BT, page 81

"Denial, substitution, rationalization, justification, distrust of others, guilt, embarrassment, dereliction, degradation, isolation, and loss of control are all results of our disease." ~ Step One, BT, page 20

Just another 2 cents

[Phinneas]

Well said, everyone.

Paulie. Good luck.

[SaTiT]

I don't belive any addict needs an explination.
I don't belive all of us did that do the half measure deal..i didn't.
It's also a part of my charecter...why do things half arss ?
When i got F-up..i got F-up out of my freaken mind.
That same charector can be use to my benifit if apply appropriately.
If I choose to get clean and sober..why do it halfass ?

To have a conversation with an active addict/alki...will most
codi or normal people go wack O....becuase it dosn't make any sense
or like talking to a STONE wall :rof

I mean...it say a drug is a drug, is a drug, is a drug.
what is it, dose you're sponsee can't grasph or comprehend??

"One is to many and thousand is never enough and it dosn't
happen overnite"


it's not that your sponsee dosen't comprehend it..
it's as simple as she/he dosen't want to stop using.

You know..."you have to want it"

but we're going to play word games with "all inclusive"
or reservations, or half measures or still experimenting.lol
"blame the disease"...

Of course my sponser keep it simple and direct....

"Have you had enough yet ??".lol

Because you have to be real careful when working with other addicts...
Especailly the once that are still using...because they might drag your ass out too.

[Gmoney]

Yeah, good luck Paulie. My sponsees are a handfull too. They're hard-headed and get distracted by the slightest stuff. I'm just grateful that most of them have understood the basics:

DON'T USE...NO MATTER WHAT!!!!

[Paulie]

Well it took a bit, but I think she gets it LOL. All I can do is share with her and pray for her.

[Chance]

Originally Posted by GarryW

"We dreamed of finding a magic formula that would solve our ultimate problem - ourselves. The fact was that we could not use any mind-altering or mood changing substance, including marijuana and alcohol, successfully." ~Basic Text, page 4

This part here Gary keeps me so confused within myself. Under the terms as used there, at least in my own head, I wouldn't be clean because I do use mind-altering and mood changing substances.

I took myself off my anti-d's about 1 1/2 month or so ago and found myself getting more and more irritable, restless, and discontent. I have been way out of line in so many places and I am not trying to justify my actions. But I so believe those words and in my heart I don't want to have to use the Anti-d's and I struggle with this even today. 3 days ago I started to take my anti'ds again as the doctor said if I started to flake out than get back on them, but my heart is so broken.

I feel as if I should be able to live clean without the use of them but I can see where I might have to take them the rest of my life. Ugghhh OK just wanted say that yeah

[Gmoney]

Originally Posted by Chance

This part here Gary keeps me so confused within myself. Under the terms as used there, at least in my own head, I wouldn't be clean because I do use mind-altering and mood changing substances.

I took myself off my anti-d's about 1 1/2 month or so ago and found myself getting more and more irritable, restless, and discontent. I have been way out of line in so many places and I am not trying to justify my actions. But I so believe those words and in my heart I don't want to have to use the Anti-d's and I struggle with this even today. 3 days ago I started to take my anti'ds again as the doctor said if I started to flake out than get back on them, but my heart is so broken.

I feel as if I should be able to live clean without the use of them but I can see where I might have to take them the rest of my life. Ugghhh OK just wanted say that yeah

Chance,

So many of us tend to get confused when we hear the phrase "mind-altering - mood changing," and I guess it can be confusing if we go to the deep end with it. I, too, once suffered from clinical depression and took prescribed antidepressants - and I know of many others who are currently on medication for mental disorders. What I believe we (as addicts) have to come to grips with is that NA is a program that focuses on recovery from the disease of addiction...not psychological conditions that require professional medical care. We also have to understand that, as we go through the steps and become open to the other variations of the disease of addiction, our 3rd Tradition clearly tells us that "using" means drug addiction - not everything under the sun that can be classified as "mind-altering or mood changing."

I've shared long and hard about how some folks tend to get fanatical (not you, mind you) and claim that NA'ers aren't really clean because of this substance or that substance (they usually mention nicotine or caffiene). They fail to realize that Narcotics Anonymous as a whole has no opinion on outside issues, including health issues. According to the "far left" perspective, none of us are really clean because everything from water to oxygen can be mind-altering or mood changing. I don't know about you, but the antidepressant meds I took...I really couldn't notice any effect they had on me. I just assumed they were working because I wasn't sleeping all day any more or having that "down in the dumps" mindset.

Some members even refer to an excerpt in our literature that suggests the steps solve depression. I won't argue with that, other than to say that there is a major difference between your "run-of-the-mill" occassional feeling down and a chemical imbalance in the brain that can only be corrected through medication.

The ultimate responsibility for making medical decisions rests with each individual. Please don't beat yourself up over this or attempt to play doctor. I hear you when you say that you don't want to take the medicine, but recovery doesn't guarantee us freedom from living life on it's own terms. Very often, in recovery, in order to get to where we need to be...we have to do some things we don't want to do. I have several ailments that require me to take meds daily. You think I like it? Just doing what I need to do to live.

Ever read IP# 19??

Be blessed.

[Paulie]

For once I completely agree with Garry

Seriously, I too was on anti'd's for a little over a year I think. I felt the same as you I did not want to take them. But I got outside help and I did what I needed to do to take care of myself.....as I as taught to do in NA.

I was open with my sponsor and my support group of friends and even at some meetings (even though I got several different reactions and not sure I would do that again).

I too would not consider them mood or mind-altering.

One of the many gifts we get in NA are the tools to take care of ourselves.

[REZ]

The bottom line for me is: does it (the substance) get me high? I took drugs to feel different, to escape. When I ran out of my DOC, I did other drugs and alcohol, to get a high. In all my years of using, I was never satisfied with nicotine or caffeine if I ran out of my DOC. These drugs never got me high.