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Going to NA meetings on Methadone

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Old 07-10-2008, 08:32 AM
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Interesting read. thanks folks.
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Old 07-10-2008, 10:52 AM
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****Warning, controversial Opinion, open your mind, or read at your own risk***

Many people in NA have used or are using suboxone to stay off street drugs or pain pills. It doesn't get you high. Doesn't make you nod. You can't tell that a person is on suboxone unless they tell you about it. This kind of language is hurtful, lumping people on suboxone therapy right in with "still-using addicts" alienates potential involved members. Honesty without compassion is cruelty.

I agree with NA suggestions on almost all issues. But I think that sometimes people need to share before they acheive abstinence from all drugs. And I think it can help to hear them. Just my opinion.

What's next? Pee tests for service positions? I agree that a person on replacement therapy should get done with that before chairing or H&I, but there are certainly some things they can do fine. Maybe help plan events, things like that. Might help them to be involved in planning a dance, gets 'em out of their shell, helps them to meet people in recovery. That being said, it is only the addict who knows what therapy (or even drugs, for that matter) they are on so it is individual consciense as to what they decide to do or tell about.

Maybe some NA meetings are so packed with people who want to share a desire to stop using and want to help with service that you can afford to refuse the ones who get clean on suboxone. We can't in our area. And it is my opinion that a person who's been on suboxone consistently and exclusively for at least a few months can be trusted generally as well as someone who's completely "absinent" from all substances. It depends on the person. I've seen "clean" people steal from their bosses after they achieved a year or more of abstinence. Seen 'em relapse too. Seen 'em do all kinds of stuff. None of us are perfect.

Cold-turkey folks, while I respect their experience and pain, don't have a monopoly on recovery. I think some addicts are jealous that suboxone makes it easier to get clean. They are jealous that they had to suffer physically more. So they tend to separate us, make us feel bad. I wish people would guard against that tendency, alienation can kill an addict. Why are so many people so worried about what other addicts are doing to try to recover?
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Old 07-10-2008, 12:14 PM
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Why not go to an AA meeting. My AH has always prefered AA meetings to NA.
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Old 07-10-2008, 12:24 PM
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The orginial question was is it appropriate to go to na meetings if you are on methadone. IMO, yes go to as many as you can talk to as many people as you can, know that you are not technically clean, but that you can be if you want to be.

my .02: Methadone is not an outside issue, just as smoking crack and huffing glue are not outside issues. "Outside issue" gets thrown around alot to justify situations that people feel defensive about for some reason. Methodone Maintenance is an ugly reality of our society. I believe it enslaves people more intensely than the original opiate of choice (it definately has a worse withdrawal). My experience is that it is a way for agencies to profit from an addiction that they KNOW can be arrested.
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Old 07-10-2008, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Gmoney View Post
there's a difference between coming to NA while still using methadone and suffering an illness or injury that requires prescribed medication AFTER YOU'VE BEEN CLEAN. Below is an excerpt from that NA Way article, and I'll highlight what I believe is being overlooked.
True. A BIG difference.

On the subject of methadone, my personal opinion is that most importantly we must show our support for these members of NA. Beyond that I think it's fair to let individual groups decide on their policy regarding addicts on methadone sharing or doing service work. Context is important too. When was in active addiction I sometimes used methadone. On the other hand, an addict might have never used it prior to getting off of their drug(s) of choice and becoming a member of NA. I knew an addict in recovery who had a clean date from when they got into recovery on the methadone program, and another clean date for when they got off of methadone, which I think took them a couple of years.

On the other subject (suffering an illness or injury that requires prescribed medication after you've been clean) I recently had back surgery and was given morphine as a pain killer. I informed my nurse and doctor that I am an addict in recovery and that I wanted as little medication as possible, and they accommodated me. When I was sent home they asked if I wanted a prescription for pain killers and I replied NO WAY. I've done fine with Advil & Tylenol. I actually experienced a bit of withdrawl, but it passed quickly.

I've worked this experience out with my HP, and I feel comfortable with maintaining my clean time. Illness & injury is a world apart from actively seeking out drugs in a relapse. I believe that the process of relapse starts long before we pick up, and that wasn't where my head was at at all.

Hope that's of some use to the group here.
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Old 07-19-2008, 07:59 PM
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Wow, sounds like there are some real prescription med Nazis out there!! Where I'm from, it's probably more common to be on an antidepressant/mood stabilizer than not. We addicts are a crazy bunch! LOL

Bottom line: Yes, you are welcome and as far as sharing, find out the group's policy. If you don't like it, there are plenty of other groups out there (hopefully close to you!)

BTW, have a good friend that came in on Methadone. Was up front about it, shared occasionally, and when he finally got completely off (he was actively tapering down) picked up a white tag. It was awesome!
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Old 01-08-2009, 09:10 AM
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I want to thank everyone for their posts on this thread. I have been researching information at the WSO on this very topic, and have printed out the NA Way article as well. There is a woman, new to recovery, who is on the methadone treatment program. She is very open about it, has a profound zeal for recovery, lives in a treatment house for women, and is having a heck of a time finding a sponsor - or any kind of support, especially from women... in the rooms of NA.

I don't know alot about replacement therapy, so I am trying to educate myself. I know that for heroin and oxycotton addicts, like Gerry Garcia (from the Grateful Dead) - cold turkey quitting can cause physical complications that can, and do, cause death.

I was fortunate. Something in my soul knew that if I took those things (and I was offered plenty of times) that I would not ever 'come back' - I would die.

So, here I am, online, reasearching... because she is being ostracized - and I know that NA does not, in its traditions, support that. When she shares, she is coherant, clear in thought and speech and does not behave like a junkie who is - how did you put it - 'nodding?'. And I believe that she has the right to be there - and not be so openly criticized. Those personal judgment calls belong with a sponsor, in my opinion.

I have printed out both the bull29 and the NA Way literature, and will be taking it to Area.

I think that it's important to follow the traditions for the protection of NA - not only for those recovering, but also for those with the desire to stop using.

Again, thank you so much for all of the input here, and I wish everyone many more J.F.T's.

fire~
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Old 01-08-2009, 10:02 AM
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The reason there is so much controversy around this comes first from an "opinion" from an outdated NA World Board bulletin stating an opinion on an outside issue, reaching into professionalism, circumventing the Third Tradition, and dictating dogma from a self-imposed top-down bureaucracy to our groups and members.

As far as I'm concerned, smoking and caffeine consumption are self-prescribed "drug-replacement" therapies. Yet none of these self-appointed NA professionals dare take a stand on those huh? If applied properly, a methadone/suboxone therapy is NOT using, should not produce a "high" and often should allow a dosage reduction once the symptoms become comfortably reduced.

Addicts know when they are “using” prescriptions, including methadone, we don’t need to single out and legislate certain substances in Narcotics Anonymous. I hate to say, some people are just not that bright, and the World Board at the time of the methadone bulletin’s writing fits snugly into that category. Flawed logic coupled with a compromise of multiple traditions – this methadone issue is an acid eroding the unity sought in NA.

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Old 01-08-2009, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by fireinthesoul View Post
I want to thank everyone for their posts on this thread. I have been researching information at the WSO on this very topic, and have printed out the NA Way article as well. There is a woman, new to recovery, who is on the methadone treatment program. She is very open about it, has a profound zeal for recovery, lives in a treatment house for women, and is having a heck of a time finding a sponsor - or any kind of support, especially from women... in the rooms of NA.

I don't know alot about replacement therapy, so I am trying to educate myself. I know that for heroin and oxycotton addicts, like Gerry Garcia (from the Grateful Dead) - cold turkey quitting can cause physical complications that can, and do, cause death.

I was fortunate. Something in my soul knew that if I took those things (and I was offered plenty of times) that I would not ever 'come back' - I would die.

So, here I am, online, reasearching... because she is being ostracized - and I know that NA does not, in its traditions, support that. When she shares, she is coherant, clear in thought and speech and does not behave like a junkie who is - how did you put it - 'nodding?'. And I believe that she has the right to be there - and not be so openly criticized. Those personal judgment calls belong with a sponsor, in my opinion.

I have printed out both the bull29 and the NA Way literature, and will be taking it to Area.

I think that it's important to follow the traditions for the protection of NA - not only for those recovering, but also for those with the desire to stop using.

Again, thank you so much for all of the input here, and I wish everyone many more J.F.T's.

fire~
Here's an alternative viewpoint that would be helpful in your area making an informed decision. It is a portion of a rant I penned a few years ago.

As for membership in NA; our position ought be one of unrestricted and inclusive participation. We ought never erect even the slightest barrier between ourselves and the still using or suffering addict. More often than not, these addicts will come to us as non-conformists. Few among us today can claim to not identify with that position. Hence, we ought neither insist nor suggest that they conform, not even that they meet us at the half-way point. These individuals are often too sick, weak, and frightened to overcome any obstacles. Consequently, in erecting them, we may be sentencing them if not to death, to many more years of dereliction and institutions. Grateful for our lives as protected by a loving God, we ought never hesitate to venture into the darkness where they are, as they are, and demonstrate that we truly do care and understand. Not having the power to impose conformity, we do have the power of example. Unable to spiritually control their thoughts, feelings and actions, we can rely on our faith in God that they will come to their own understanding in the time He has allotted. Eventually all addicts will conform to the principals that guarantee their survival, if not, they sicken and possibly die. This is our truth and our reality. Practical application of this viewpoint will provide “an atmosphere of identification and empathy.”

The preceding depicts one of the more frequently contradicted traditions in our fellowship, our Third Tradition, the only requirement, no buts, and no exceptions. Quite often misinterpretations of other traditions lend justification to this dilemma. I have seen the “complete abstinence” issue brought up as justification to exclude from, or withhold a full membership status. Along the same line the phrase ‘if you have used in the past twenty four hours we ask that you participate by listening only...’ may lead one to believe that ‘desire’ is not enough. These ideals are believed and used by some members and groups to supposedly maintain an atmosphere of recovery. Consequently, they raise barriers and promote controversy. They offer encouragement to stray from, rather than adhere to, our Ninth Tradition through the implementation of special rules and extra membership requirements or, if you rather, creating a “second class” of membership. These ideals may also invite some members into a position of government through the apparently justified enforcement of... promoting deviation from Tradition Two and blurring the principles embodied in our Third Tradition. In effect, carrying a mixed and confusing message by implying our traditions are somehow negotiable.

As for NA opinion; should we, as a fellowship, attempt to define “using” or “drugs?” If our fellowship were to present a definition for these words the result would seem immanently self-destructive. It would invite controversy through individual language interpretations, professionals and other organizations. All of whom may find differing definitions. A practical solution could be for NA groups, boards and committees to have no opinion on this terminology all together. In respect, it can be left to the individual members to interpret for themselves these terms and conditions, as they come to their own understanding in Gods time.

I have seen some argue the difference between medicinal use and substitution of drugs. While there may be a difference, my experience has taught me that addiction is a treatable not curable disease. In many instances, any number of substitutions can occur in our members programs of recovery; such as food, sugar, caffeine, sex, relationships, working, spending, and gambling. If we were to have an opinion, where would we start, and could we ever draw a line? For example, if our movement were ever to begin being “politically correct” in this matter, there should be one absolute - an opinion on nicotine. Not too often does an addict find themselves in jails or institutions directly related to this substance, but the death rate attributed to it out weighs all other drugs used by our members combined. Now, if NA were to have an opinion on nicotine for instance, that encouraged excluding these addicts from equal and active participation along with all other service to our fellowship, the results could be devastating. Yet, having an opinion on one drug and not others seems almost hypocritical. Point being, drugs themselves ought be viewed by our fellowship as an outside issue. This perception works because it not only avoids external controversy it eliminates internal strife as well. It presents the opportunity to adhere to our tradition of non-professionalism through exercising a discipline in having no opinion. It also offers an understanding of Tradition Ten than compliments our Third Tradition by allowing the simplicity of “desire” to be the all inclusive benchmark for equal membership; this encourages fellowship unity.
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Old 01-08-2009, 01:17 PM
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Hey Andy. Happy New Year.

Fireinthesoul,

Addressing the original question: NA meetings are for anyone who believes they have a problem with drugs. Addicts who are on drug replacement drugs like methadone or suboxone are just as welcomed as anyone else. It is unfortunate that certain addicts gang up on members who are on DRT and treat them like second-class members, but these certain members are not NA as a whole.

I disagree with Andy that consumpton of nicotine or caffiene is a "self-prescibed drug replacement therapy." Replacement for what? I can't speak for anyone else, but I smoked cigarettes and drank coffee long before coming to NA and I don't ever recall getting high off of either. Although I'm not a Certified NA Counselor or NA professional of any sort, I have in the past taken a stand against the flawed logic of comparing apples with oranges. Here's part of a previous post I wrote:

I asked a number of local members what they thought on this subject, and most agreed that NA history plays a major part. Back in 1953 when NA was formed, there wasn't much concern for what we call a drug today. Heroin was the big demon. Over time, more and more drug addicts came to NA with a variety of different drug addictions (cocaine, pills, etc..) and the issues of comparing, disunity and prejudice had to be addressed. The literature (or language) is written in general terms as not to place importance of one drug over another, and to keep the focus on the disease of addiction - the the specific drugs we became addicted to.

Some things about NA and NA literature may never be fully understood by folks who aren't NA members. What comes to mind is the NA Symbol (or the AA symbol for that matter). Non-members can look at it and never really know what it stands for due to the "occult and esoteric connotations" found in their outlines, "but foremost in the minds of the Fellowship are easily understood meanings and relationships." I come away with thinking that it goes: we get it...you don't, and you don't have to...but if you're like us, you will.

If NA used the word "narcotic" in its 1st Step, the focus would be on a specific group or class of drugs instead of the disease addiction - there's a wide range of drugs that people get addicted to that aren't really narcotics, yet they are in fact "drug addicts" who suffer from the same disease as the narcotic addict suffers from.

Our literature tells us that NA is a "universal and total program that has room within it for all manifestations of the recovering person." Someone could read that and think that they could go to NA with a gambling problem, a sex problem, or food problem right? Well, of course they can go to NA, but once they got there they'd find out what it's about and wouldn't be able to identify. Now, for the drug addict who comes to NA and later realizes they have a problem with food, gambling or sexual behaviors (addiction), they find that the NA program can address these areas as well.

"All drugs" simply means, for most NA members, that it isn't about putting down the crack pipe and picking up a bottle of Remy, or a prescription for ocxy's. As I shared before, addicts don't come to NA unless they have a drug problem or believe they have a drug problem. I think that's a given, but once you get here, they'll find that recovery in NA is not about substitution or getting high on anything. "Abstinence from all drugs" means don't get high...period. It doesn't mean you can't take a Tylenol for a headache or a Tums for upset stomach. It also doesn't mean you can't smoke a cigarette, have a cup of coffee, or eat a snickers. For me, that's venturing into fanatism because no one comes to NA for an addiction to Tylenol or coffee. But once again, the program can address these areas too, if they become problematic for you.

AA has what is called a "Singleness of Purpose," right? So does NA. Just as AA's focus is the disease of Alcoholism, NA's focus is the disease of Addiction. AA's focus regarding a substance is very narrow and specific, NA's is on the disease and not the substance. This difference alone can be cause of confusion for many.

From my understanding, NA doesn't "try" to include anyone in its fold, yet it doesn't turn people away because they didn't use a specific substance, either. Either you're a drug addict or you're not. We're not interested in what drugs you used because it's not the drug that makes you an addict - it's your reaction to the drugs. Kinda like AA's refer to the "allergy."
Oh yeah...I also disagree that the death rate for nicotine (cigarette smokers) is higher than all other drugs used by our members. I'm willing to bet more addicts died from alcohol (the #1 killer), heroin or crack than deaths related to cigarettes or nicotine.
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Old 01-08-2009, 02:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Gmoney View Post
Hey Andy. Happy New Year.


Oh yeah...I also disagree that the death rate for nicotine (cigarette smokers) is higher than all other drugs used by our members. I'm willing to bet more addicts died from alcohol (the #1 killer), heroin or crack than deaths related to cigarettes or nicotine.
Death rate extrapolations for USA for Smoking: 440,000 per year, 36,666 per month, 8,461 per week, 1,205 per day, 50 per hour.

The report from the Institute of Medicine (2007) says that tobacco kills more Americans annually than AIDS, alcohol, cocaine, heroin, homicides, suicides, car accidents, and fires combined.

The World Health Organization (WHO) reports the worldwide death toll from tobacco use is 4 million annually. This is far greater than the number of fatalities from all illegal drugs and alcohol combined. The death toll is expected to rise to 10 million per year by the 2020's or early 2030's, with 7 million deaths occurring in developing countries.

...

Hence, jails, institutions, and DEATHS

a

(nice to be back)
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Old 01-08-2009, 05:09 PM
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Sounds like I stand corrected. My bad.

Yet, I can't help but consider that alcohol-related conditions, particularly those that are contributing rather than direct causes of death, are substantially under-reported on death certificates.This may be due to a reporting bias, lack of information on the deceased person's drinking history or both. Chronic alcohol-related liver disease, which provides organic evidence at an autopsy, ranks as the ninth-leading cause of death in the United States.

Alcohol-related deaths commonly come disguised as trauma, and many of the deaths caused in motor vehicles can be attributed to substance consumption. I don't know for sure, but I can't help but think of all the people who commit crimes and are killed during the act (and how so many of them are on drugs). And what about those who die from poor diet or physical inactivity? (the 2nd leading cause of death: approx. 365,000 a year)How many of them are drug users or addicts? I guess I'm just suspicious of what REALLY causes what.
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Old 01-08-2009, 06:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Gmoney View Post
Sounds like I stand corrected. My bad.

Yet, I can't help but consider that alcohol-related conditions, particularly those that are contributing rather than direct causes of death, are substantially under-reported on death certificates.

And what about those who die from poor diet or physical inactivity? (the 2nd leading cause of death: approx. 365,000 a year)How many of them are drug users or addicts? I guess I'm just suspicious of what REALLY causes what.

No worries mate.

More to consider, of how many deaths that smoking contributed to, but that were not placed in that category. Then to obesity, it is not the 2nd leading cause of death exactly, but the 2nd leading cause of "preventable" death. I remember getting mixed up by these statistics when studying public health in college.
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Old 01-08-2009, 09:36 PM
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Funny thing about statistics is that too many are unaccounted for in the numbers.
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Old 01-09-2009, 12:27 AM
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I don't ask my doctor how to work my program and I don't ask the people at NA about medical issues. I stole that from CarolD, (sorry).
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Old 01-11-2009, 06:46 PM
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Hm. So far as prescriptions go-- sometimes they are necessary. In one of my local groups, they ask that any elected as a trusted servant who is on prescribed medication share that information. If they're more comfortable sharing that with only other trusted servants, that's fine. It's suggested because- especially with medications for psychiatric disorders- a change in medication can wildly affect someone's behavior. By sharing a pre-existing issue, we try to take that into account if they seem to be off the deep end. If they choose not to share than information, and go off the deep end, then the medication issue is removed from consideration, and the rest of the group can only base decisions off the person's behavior. Which, has actually led to one TS being removed from service. Man, keeps you really honest though, for those that do share those issues, and for many is a point of commiseration in their programs which makes everyone stronger. It's not saying that medications are good, or bad, or that anyone should ignore a doctor's advice. Just that if there's a big shift in behavior as a result of an unabused medication changing- we try to take it into account. If we don't know, we can't.

The methadone thing I have spiky opinions on which I will keep to myself.
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Old 01-11-2009, 07:58 PM
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Originally Posted by sct View Post
It's suggested because- especially with medications for psychiatric disorders- a change in medication can wildly affect someone's behavior.
For me, getting nookie wildly effects my behavior, in fact, NOT getting nookie makes me even MORE wild - gawd I hate it when that happens. Would I have to share that with the other servants too?

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Old 01-11-2009, 08:41 PM
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*sigh*

It's good to have you back around the 'hood, andy.

Peace & Love,
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Old 01-11-2009, 10:32 PM
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for me, getting nookie wildly effects my behavior, in fact, not getting nookie makes me even more wild - gawd i hate it when that happens.
me too!! Lol!!
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Old 01-12-2009, 07:10 PM
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You're not a TS in that group I don't think... so.... doesn't matter.
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