Reciting the lords prayer in an NA meeting

[lucyo]

Originally Posted by Thundar301

"There is One thing more then anything else that will defeat us in our recovery; this is an attitude of indifference or intolerance towards spiritual principals"

would not the Lords prayer be covered in that? prayer is a spiritual principal right? like meditation,or making amends

the lord's prayer isn't a spiritual principle.

i dont think we should recite christian prayers in a narcotics anonymous meeting any more than i think we should read the AA's 12 steps or anything from their literature in our meetings.

if people choose to do that outside the meeting its fine.

if i want to hear the lord's prayer, i go to church
if i want to hear aa literature, i go to aa.

i go to narcotics anonymous to hear the narcotics anonymous message.

i understand that prayer you quoted, along with the serenity prayer, are not "our" prayers... but they are also not in a book like the bible or koran or other books associated with particular religions... although i would personally be ok without using either... i dont hear them and think, christianity or bible.

if we really mean a god of our understanding, then lets make it easier for new people to find a god of their understanding by not calling attention to a particular god in our meetings by using the lord's prayer.... lets try to be openminded to the idea and understanding and empathetic to those who aren't christian. if an individual sharing in a meeting mentions that jesus is his/her higher power... thats a lot different than inviting everyone to recite the lord's prayer.

[dalin]

a religous prayer to close a meetigs when aa was teachibg folks how to cunuct meeting.
it was brought over by well meaning tourist
how would they feel if icosed the hinu,rushun,budist or islamic prayer.
we use th third step prayer,gratiyudr prayerand just for today
when we take the sugested things by na members with n.a. sponor

[andyaddict]

Originally Posted by lucyo

the lord's prayer isn't a spiritual principle.

i dont think we should recite christian prayers in a narcotics anonymous meeting any more than i think we should read the AA's 12 steps or anything from their literature in our meetings.

if people choose to do that outside the meeting its fine.

if i want to hear the lord's prayer, i go to church
if i want to hear aa literature, i go to aa.

Maybe life shouldn't center around what "you" want anymore. Where's the acceptance in that.

The Lord's Prayer is filled with spiritual principles, many of which may have played the decisive roles in keeping me from a life of dereliction or death. There were some haters that used to make a big fuss when someone chanted "Our Father..." at the end of a meeting once in a while. Then this one Jew came along, the pawn the haters used to prop themselves up upon to manipulate the group.

He said aloud in his share that he was by no means offended by the use of the Lord's Prayer and that it actually had some good stuff in it for him, he simply just meditates on the good parts and that was that. In all my years through all my meetings, I've never heard of an instance where a Buddhist, Jewish, Islamic, Taoist, or any other religious sect claimed to be offended by the Lord's Prayer (and I've attended a lot of meetings across the US over the years).

Personally, I don't use it "not" because I feel it offends any other faiths, but to avoid the controversy and disunity created when the haters spew their intolerance and try to justify it through some twisting of some spiritual axiom from a program that many of us rely upon.

The "Third Step" saying is only a quote, and when cited from the book doesn't even have an address for the message. The Serenity Prayer is copyrighted AA literature, yet none of our "if I wanted to hear AA I'd go to an AA meeting" people complaining about that. In the moment I can only recall 2 "NA prayers” with one being the gratitude prayer and the other the literature prayer, many might not even consider THEM NA prayers.

NAway... enough bickering from me for tonight, got class tomorrow and need to get my beauty sleep.

a

[Blake]

How goes it andrew?

THe problem is that using "The Lord's Prayer" in a meeting suggests an implied endorsement of the christian religion.

And the serenity prayer is not copyrighted by AA...it is much much older than that. http://www.drnadig.com/serenity.htm

[Alera]

I went to a lot of NA meetings, and all but one ended in the Lords Prayer. All the AA meetings ended in the 3rd Step prayer.

Although I am religious I do not want religion in my meetings. That is what my church is for. It made me very uncomfortable.

[lucyo]

Originally Posted by andyaddict

Maybe life shouldn't center around what "you" want anymore. Where's the acceptance in that.

hah, or what you want...
mr smarty pants

i'm not offended by the lord's prayer. but it doesn't belong as a part of an NA meeting format... not because of what i want, but because of the traditions.

[Recoveree]

Hi Andy

The Serenity Prayer is not, as you claim, copyrighted by AA.

I still havent seen anyone including you present a good reason to use a religious prayer as part of the format of an organization that professes itself to be non religious.

Simply stating that religious prayers are helpful to you (Maybe life shouldn't center around what "you" want anymore. Where's the acceptance in that)
doesn't translate into making it part of the program of Narcotics Anonymous.

There are many prayers, books, sayings, songs, poems, that might help us in our recovery, but that doesn't automatically make them part of Narcotics Anonymous. NA has survived and worked in the lives of many for 55 years because of what it is. A non religious program.

The beauty of NA is that I can walk into almost any one of the 2 million meetings a year in over 120 countries and know what I am walking into.

I can deal with going to a NA meeting where they use a religious prayer because I have many years clean and a strong foundation in NA, but I know from talking to addicts and my own experience in early recovery that opening a meeting by saying NA is not religious and then contradicting that by reciting
a very religious prayer does not leave a good impression.

Richie

[andyaddict]

Originally Posted by lucyo

hah, or what you want...
mr smarty pants

a

[andyaddict]

Hi Richeee

Nope, I'm not even trying to present a good reason for implementing a religious prayer as part of a format; in fact I feel it DOES cross some boundaries if it is indeed in a group's format. However, I feel that such a prayer can and will find its "own" way out of NA meeting commonplace and does not need any police to hurry that process along.

I lean slightly toward not using it mainly for the reasons I posted earlier. I rest firmly against implementing it into a format since it treads dangerously close to conflict with principles of our traditions. Nevertheless, I have faith that our groups will find their way without organizing police to enforce subjective spiritual policy.

The Basic Text suggests many times: "we lead by example."

a

[lucyo]

Originally Posted by andyaddict

I'm not even trying to present a good reason for implementing a religious prayer as part of a format; in fact

I feel it DOES cross some boundaries if it is indeed in a group's format. However,

I feel that such a prayer can and will find its "own" way out of NA meeting commonplace and does not need any police to hurry that process along.

I lean slightly toward not using it mainly for the reasons

I posted earlier.

I rest firmly against implementing it into a format since it treads dangerously close to conflict with principles of our traditions. Nevertheless,

I have faith that our groups will find their way without organizing police to enforce subjective spiritual policy.
a

who was it that said earlier "Maybe life shouldn't center around what "you" want anymore."

[Thundar301]

in the majority of the the meetings I have been too, where the "lord's Prayer" was used to close , it was not a group choice which would imply endorsment, a trusted service member of the meeting place , either the secertary,treasuer,or even the guest speaker would ask someone in the group to please lead the meeting in a closing prayer. When I started recovery I didn't know the lord's prayer, and I would be glad to learn a hindu, Islamic, Jewish or other prayer if the is what someone who was chosen to lead an entire group out in prayer was comfortable reciting in front of 100 people or 2, Asa lama laka, , and , Laka Salom. this is a great debate subject, we can go and go,, and with that I'll end this post in PA , May YOUR higher power continue to Bless you in your recovery, Dean

[Gmoney]

First of all....it is certainly a compromise of our Traditions to recite The Lord's Prayer in an NA meeting (see, Trads. 1, 3, 4, 5, 6 & 10) and The Lord's Prayer is not done in my area at any of the 60 or so groups here. I've been told that in the early days of NA there were many groups that were confused about this issue because most of the guidance we received as a fledgling Fellowship came from AA (where the prayer is still used today and their ties to organized religion is unquestionable), so we blindly followed suit. Gratefully, times have changed. I've been around since 1998 and I've yet to see it happen.

Throughout NA literature emphasis is placed on describing our fellowship as distinct and separate from AA, regardless of the fact that some AA members helped us to form NA and our program is "adapted" from AA's 12 Steps. If we begin with The Symbol (pg ix), the Introduction (pg xv) and What Is The Narcotics Anonymous Program? (pg 9), it would be difficult to conclude that religion has a place in NA. When referring to God, we have to be mindful that NA has no opinion about what or who God is. The Lord's Prayer is definitely a Christian thing and since NA is not based on Christianity, NA shouldn't affiliate itself through direct or indirect endorsement.

Our 3rd Step tells us:

"Our concept of God comes not from dogma but from what we believe and from what works for us. Many of us understand God to be simply whatever force keeps us clean. The right to a God of your understanding it total and without any catches." BT, pg 25.

Although the Serenity Prayer has been altered and used by AA since the 1940's, there is no verifiable proof that it was created by AA. As a matter of fact, I'm willing to bet that Reinhold Niebhur (the author - 1930's) may dispute whether AA holds the copyright. Just as AA adapted stuff from other groups and twisted it to make it their own, NA did the same thing.

Our Symbol tells us that NA is a "total program" with room in it for all manifestations of the recovering person. As already mentioned, this would include atheists, agnostics, Wiccans...etc... Our diversity is our strength and unity of purpose has very little to do with uniformity of belief.

Even the concept of spirituality is left up to the indiviual member to define. The Introduction tells us, "Because the variety of addicts found within our Fellowship, we approach the solution contained within this book in general terms." Yet, this doesn't conflict with NA informing us that, "...the solution of which is spiritual in nature (re: our dilemma). Therefore, this book will deal with spiritual matters. We are not a religious organization." (BT,pg xvi)

Group autonomy (Trad.#4) - not anonimity - allows each group freedom to be creative in developing ways to carry the NA message. Many people believe that the ability to be "self governing" allows groups to do as they please. This is a closed-minded view of what autonomy is all about. Our decisions as groups can (and does) affect other groups and NA as a whole and the freedom that comes with autonomy can justify violations of our Traditions. With our common welfare in mind, our groups have a responsibility to avoid the controversy and disunity that would come about through implementing The Lord's Prayer in a non-religious fellowship.

I could go on and on, but I'll stop here.

[Gmoney]

Oh...just wanted to add that further research on the origins of the Serenity Prayer revealed that it may be attributed to a Roman philosopher named Beothius (480 - 524 AD). I wonder if he was a Christian? (just kidding)