13 steppers/ Those who pray on newcomers
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: The Field of Dreams
Posts: 7,249
13 steppers/ Those who pray on newcomers
I really dont have anything against people who meet in the program and date. I met my girlfriend in NA. But we both had been clean a while. And a lot of times it can still be trouble. My definition of a 13 stepper is someone with some clean time who has been around awhile and goes after the vulnerable newcomer. Not to be a hypocrite. Or maybe I am? At one time I dated my share of women in the rooms. But I always had the least amount of clean time. I was always the newcomer. Everyone in the room had more time than I did. Probably why I kept going back out. Its the predators. There just to meet women that get me. My GF's daughter has been going to meeting recently. She is only 19 and defineatly a cutie. She's not my daughter, but when I see these guys move in like sharks, I feel no different than if she were my own daughter and become protective. STAY AWAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!! She only has a few days clean. She has only been to a couple meetings. How do I handle this without getting out of line? She is a grown woman. I really hate to see her get side tracked in her recovery. Or even worse, someone take her back out and use together.
Member
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Nor Cal
Posts: 119
hi,
good topic! when i first started the program i was preyed upon and it was very uncomfortable for me. now that i have more time it STILL happens, the predators remain. anyway, my suggestion for you is to talk openly with her about these guys. or can her mom gently discuss it with her? in my experience, the women who had a lot of time and saw men preying on me would talk to me about it, and educated me on 13 stepping etc. i really thank them for it. since i was so new and vulnerable their words really helped me understand that while there are some good guys in the rooms, there are still the predators. to this day the best thing i was ever told was "stick with the women in the rooms." I too have dated another addict and when it ended it sucked and was uncomfortable and sometimes still is.
I do not think you would be out of line by discussing your concerns about predators with her and her mom. I am really grateful for the people that discussed it with me when I was new.
no one will take her back out, it is HER choice to pick up or not, and her choice to get sidetracked and hang out with the wrong men in the rooms. but the more aware she is of these men, and 13 stepping the better choices she will be able to make. am i making any sense? lol
xo
heart
good topic! when i first started the program i was preyed upon and it was very uncomfortable for me. now that i have more time it STILL happens, the predators remain. anyway, my suggestion for you is to talk openly with her about these guys. or can her mom gently discuss it with her? in my experience, the women who had a lot of time and saw men preying on me would talk to me about it, and educated me on 13 stepping etc. i really thank them for it. since i was so new and vulnerable their words really helped me understand that while there are some good guys in the rooms, there are still the predators. to this day the best thing i was ever told was "stick with the women in the rooms." I too have dated another addict and when it ended it sucked and was uncomfortable and sometimes still is.
I do not think you would be out of line by discussing your concerns about predators with her and her mom. I am really grateful for the people that discussed it with me when I was new.
no one will take her back out, it is HER choice to pick up or not, and her choice to get sidetracked and hang out with the wrong men in the rooms. but the more aware she is of these men, and 13 stepping the better choices she will be able to make. am i making any sense? lol
xo
heart
Trying to do the right thing.
Join Date: May 2006
Location: London
Posts: 4,345
13th Steppin is Always going on at Meetins,...Unless you Become aware ,...Of Just what there up to,...!
I would try and talk to her about the STD,..aspect and the Going Back out with them as thats What they All want ,...Sorry to Genralize ,...K .!
A quicky , n a use up ...!
Dont Beat me Up.!...xXx...
Just if you can try to point out that some of them are still Sick in Deeper than she is ,...and It Would take her further down ,..She does need to be warned...!
Can another woman go with her and Back her up ,...?
I was talkin to a 24 yr old the Other day and she really wants out ,..Really, but they would eat her Alive in Some of the meetins in my Area,..No Joke ,.!
I asked her to stick next to me and the Others if she came to the Meetin but She Never arrived ,...!
But they Would Jump at it young pretty Girl with a Bit of cash left from her ,....Family ,...So Young and just Started usein ...Really sad ...Actually ,...
As im 10 yrs Older (next Bdy) than she is and can Handle myself well at time ....*cough*
...xXx...
Well in that Department,... you can close it down it a few words n moves but you have to be Ruthless sometimes ,..Well ive have been ,...Only to keep Myself safe ...!
I Hope she is O.K,...and You manage to get some Other women to Stick with her and sit next to her at meetins and Littrey Watch her back as we do it for eachother Aswell.......
Good Luck ...
Best Wishes For Her ...xXx...
...xXx...
I would try and talk to her about the STD,..aspect and the Going Back out with them as thats What they All want ,...Sorry to Genralize ,...K .!
A quicky , n a use up ...!
Dont Beat me Up.!...xXx...
Just if you can try to point out that some of them are still Sick in Deeper than she is ,...and It Would take her further down ,..She does need to be warned...!
Can another woman go with her and Back her up ,...?
I was talkin to a 24 yr old the Other day and she really wants out ,..Really, but they would eat her Alive in Some of the meetins in my Area,..No Joke ,.!
I asked her to stick next to me and the Others if she came to the Meetin but She Never arrived ,...!
But they Would Jump at it young pretty Girl with a Bit of cash left from her ,....Family ,...So Young and just Started usein ...Really sad ...Actually ,...
As im 10 yrs Older (next Bdy) than she is and can Handle myself well at time ....*cough*
...xXx...Well in that Department,... you can close it down it a few words n moves but you have to be Ruthless sometimes ,..Well ive have been ,...Only to keep Myself safe ...!
I Hope she is O.K,...and You manage to get some Other women to Stick with her and sit next to her at meetins and Littrey Watch her back as we do it for eachother Aswell.......
Good Luck ...
Best Wishes For Her ...xXx...
...xXx...
Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Chapel Hill, NC
Posts: 2,274
"i always found that groups of people get to be pretty dysfuntional when together. too much lust, ego and whatnot floating around. just one of the reasons i don't do meetings no more."
Windysame
If I applied your logic universally, then no one would go to meetings anymore and there would be no NA. Have you ever heard of principles before personalities?
Personally, I think 13th steppers have a real problem, but they are human too, just like the rest of us. We all need to work on letting go of ego, selfishness, manipulaiton, etc.
Windysame
If I applied your logic universally, then no one would go to meetings anymore and there would be no NA. Have you ever heard of principles before personalities?
Personally, I think 13th steppers have a real problem, but they are human too, just like the rest of us. We all need to work on letting go of ego, selfishness, manipulaiton, etc.
Big Idiot Man Child
Join Date: May 2004
Location: La
Posts: 5,664
"Personally, I think 13th steppers have a real problem, but they are human too, just like the rest of us. We all need to work on letting go of ego, selfishness, manipulaiton, etc"
Yeah, I do this really well at home.
Yeah, I do this really well at home.
Last edited by windysan; 12-17-2006 at 04:54 PM. Reason: messed up quote thingie
Member
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Newfie-Land, Mo
Posts: 1,623
everytime I went to NA I was preyed upon...It drove me crazy.. I started NA when I was 17.. I went for 2 yrs and then I could no longer take the constant distractions.. I was clean for a long time... 6 yrs or so...strated using again, went back to meetings..still was pestered by men and women...felt like I was doing everything wrorng...It messed me up for a long time...like I would always be that girl....the one to sleep with ....the one to "get"
I never ever considered starting something with a fellow NAer.... but the way they acted made me feel like S**T...
I went back to the doors of NA last year and low and behold...THE SAME THING HAPPENED...it was disgusting to me and I will NEVER go back...i read my text and go to an addiction specialist, when I can afford it. I have my own program and know that many utilize AA/NA ....i am glad they have it...
but seeing it like I have I know i was distracted and had I not wanted to stay clean I could have easily let that get to me...or use with those that offered...
hug that girl for me and I am so glad she is finding her way ...keep her on that path ...I Know she is in great hands....
peace and love,
~B
I never ever considered starting something with a fellow NAer.... but the way they acted made me feel like S**T...
I went back to the doors of NA last year and low and behold...THE SAME THING HAPPENED...it was disgusting to me and I will NEVER go back...i read my text and go to an addiction specialist, when I can afford it. I have my own program and know that many utilize AA/NA ....i am glad they have it...
but seeing it like I have I know i was distracted and had I not wanted to stay clean I could have easily let that get to me...or use with those that offered...
hug that girl for me and I am so glad she is finding her way ...keep her on that path ...I Know she is in great hands....
peace and love,
~B
Certified NA Counselor
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Newport Beach Ca., US
Posts: 458
STEP 13 - We made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of him/her.
Notice the wording of this step, that *we made the decision it was not made for us. Many in recovery today understand that we were seldom victims, most often we were *volunteers.
It’s been said that victims cannot recover since they focus on the incident and assume no responsibility for their part in the activity. For many, it wasn't until we owned our part in our dilemmas that we began to grow with wisdom through discovery and spiritual action was it?
Now... take a look at our collective opposition to those we label as predators or 13th steppers. Often most of these rationalizations start with: “Look at what that person did.” In actuality, this may be a validation for blame while not assuming any responsibility. Using this rationale, would one be correct in presuming such a victim would no longer need to change themselves? Can they now freely focus on changing everyone and everything around them?
Should we become an integrated pocket that justifies victim hood? If so, are we not giving them the chance to fester a serious infection? Our collective conscience shunning these 13th steppers should now proudly stand and righteously persecute these supposed perpetrators. This manifestation of pride would then give us that little heads up, that contented feeling of superiority over others.
Oh how comfortable self-righteousness can be, *more is the word for the day. So let’s judge these evildoers and cast them into the outer darkness as well. We must, since it is all for the good of NA you see. We must be rid of this type of waste in our fellowship if these delicate flowers are ever to have a chance at finding a new way of life. ...
NONSENSE!!!
Firstly… are there not addicts among us recovering successfully from addiction in spite of adversity? Doesn’t this success depend upon our relationship with a God that could do for us what we could not do for ourselves? If this were true, isn’t it so that any and every attempt to shield these newcomers from adversity rather than offering them the spiritual tools to meet such challenges would be doomed to failure?
Secondly... many members may still lack profound spiritual development even after years in the program. If the foregoing were true, wouldn’t it be wrong to judge, criticize, condemn, isolate, or reject these individuals as morally bad rather than viewing them as spiritually sick? If we condone such ideals toward those whose actions we disapprove of, could it not be we, the righteous, doing the individual, group, or fellowship the greater spiritual damage?
When spouting off how bad other addicts behave, are we not in a perverse way proclaiming our own righteousness? What message do we convey to that suffering addict when we criticize with malevolence our fellows, those with whom they've chosen to associate with? Besides, who among us has had nothing but the purist of thoughts and intentions in all our affairs?
The moral of this story is: “Recovery is an inside job.” The practice of spirituality is all inclusive, even towards those dastardly 13th steppers. No member I’ve met, as of yet, is in themselves exempt from moral inadequacies. Judge not lest ye be judged. Teach by example rather than by direction. Quit defending the victim role, victims don't recover.
andyaddict
Los Angeles
Notice the wording of this step, that *we made the decision it was not made for us. Many in recovery today understand that we were seldom victims, most often we were *volunteers.
It’s been said that victims cannot recover since they focus on the incident and assume no responsibility for their part in the activity. For many, it wasn't until we owned our part in our dilemmas that we began to grow with wisdom through discovery and spiritual action was it?
Now... take a look at our collective opposition to those we label as predators or 13th steppers. Often most of these rationalizations start with: “Look at what that person did.” In actuality, this may be a validation for blame while not assuming any responsibility. Using this rationale, would one be correct in presuming such a victim would no longer need to change themselves? Can they now freely focus on changing everyone and everything around them?
Should we become an integrated pocket that justifies victim hood? If so, are we not giving them the chance to fester a serious infection? Our collective conscience shunning these 13th steppers should now proudly stand and righteously persecute these supposed perpetrators. This manifestation of pride would then give us that little heads up, that contented feeling of superiority over others.
Oh how comfortable self-righteousness can be, *more is the word for the day. So let’s judge these evildoers and cast them into the outer darkness as well. We must, since it is all for the good of NA you see. We must be rid of this type of waste in our fellowship if these delicate flowers are ever to have a chance at finding a new way of life. ...
NONSENSE!!!
Firstly… are there not addicts among us recovering successfully from addiction in spite of adversity? Doesn’t this success depend upon our relationship with a God that could do for us what we could not do for ourselves? If this were true, isn’t it so that any and every attempt to shield these newcomers from adversity rather than offering them the spiritual tools to meet such challenges would be doomed to failure?
Secondly... many members may still lack profound spiritual development even after years in the program. If the foregoing were true, wouldn’t it be wrong to judge, criticize, condemn, isolate, or reject these individuals as morally bad rather than viewing them as spiritually sick? If we condone such ideals toward those whose actions we disapprove of, could it not be we, the righteous, doing the individual, group, or fellowship the greater spiritual damage?
When spouting off how bad other addicts behave, are we not in a perverse way proclaiming our own righteousness? What message do we convey to that suffering addict when we criticize with malevolence our fellows, those with whom they've chosen to associate with? Besides, who among us has had nothing but the purist of thoughts and intentions in all our affairs?
The moral of this story is: “Recovery is an inside job.” The practice of spirituality is all inclusive, even towards those dastardly 13th steppers. No member I’ve met, as of yet, is in themselves exempt from moral inadequacies. Judge not lest ye be judged. Teach by example rather than by direction. Quit defending the victim role, victims don't recover.
andyaddict
Los Angeles
JUST DO IT!!
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Here Or There
Posts: 7,612
Originally Posted by andyaddict 
If the foregoing were true, wouldn’t it be wrong to judge, criticize, condemn, isolate, or reject these individuals as morally bad rather than viewing them as spiritually sick? If we condone such ideals toward those whose actions we disapprove of, could it not be we, the righteous, doing the individual, group, or fellowship the greater spiritual damage?
The moral of this story is: “Recovery is an inside job.” The practice of spirituality is all inclusive, even towards those dastardly 13th steppers. No member I’ve met, as of yet, is in themselves exempt from moral inadequacies. Judge not lest ye be judged. Teach by example rather than by direction. Quit defending the victim role, victims don't recover.
andyaddict
Los Angeles
The moral of this story is: “Recovery is an inside job.” The practice of spirituality is all inclusive, even towards those dastardly 13th steppers. No member I’ve met, as of yet, is in themselves exempt from moral inadequacies. Judge not lest ye be judged. Teach by example rather than by direction. Quit defending the victim role, victims don't recover.
andyaddict
Los Angeles
Thanks Andy!
You know here lately I haven't been posting too much it seems that most everyone here is set in there old ideals! It pains me to see everyone judging, condemning, etc when we ourselves were no better than them. My heart is starting to really break, for some people are not open-minded on the spiritual part of the program.
I know in the other fellowship in the back of the book it says
AA and acceptance have taught me that there is a bit of good in the worst of us and a bit of bad in the best of us that we are all children of God and we each have a right to be here. When I complain about me or about you, I am complaining about Gods handiwork. I am saying that I know better than God.
It seems like to me that most of us have checkered lives! Now God or your HP is the only one that has a right to judge. If I walked into a NA Meeting and they started to judge and hang me I would probably leave. Where is the empathy that the program teaches us?
With Love and Respect
Vic
Oh BTW the Program of recovery is in the first 103 pages of the Basic Text. I do not see anything there that says 13 step so that would be considered an outside issue or that is how I perceive it right now always willing to change my opinion
Member
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Nor Cal
Posts: 119
Unless you are a WOMAN in the rooms of NA and have been preyed upon, I suggest you LISTEN because if you dont have EXPERIENCE with predators then you obviously do not know how it feels. And it does NOT feel good.
I WILL NOT ACCEPT UNACCEPTABLE BEHAVIOR. PERIOD.
IVE NEVER SEEN ANYWHERE IN THE LITERATURE ANYTHING ABOUT THE "13TH STEP", so that definition above up there seems bogus to me.
Obviously I am passionate about this but I really think its my RIGHT as a human being to NOT HAVE TO ACCEPT EVERYONE. Believe it or not, predators drive women out of the rooms ALL THE TIME.
I WILL NOT ACCEPT UNACCEPTABLE BEHAVIOR. PERIOD.
IVE NEVER SEEN ANYWHERE IN THE LITERATURE ANYTHING ABOUT THE "13TH STEP", so that definition above up there seems bogus to me.
Obviously I am passionate about this but I really think its my RIGHT as a human being to NOT HAVE TO ACCEPT EVERYONE. Believe it or not, predators drive women out of the rooms ALL THE TIME.
JUST DO IT!!
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Here Or There
Posts: 7,612
Originally Posted by Heartinpieces
Unless you are a WOMAN in the rooms of NA and have been preyed upon, I suggest you LISTEN because if you dont have EXPERIENCE with predators then you obviously do not know how it feels. And it does NOT feel good.
.
.
When I was almost two years clean, a lady came into the program. She came after me all out. I talked to my sponsor about it and he said "Vic, that is the kind of woman that will chew you up and spit you out." I didn't believe him, but you know what he was right. Now it isn't her fault, it is mine for not listening to my sponsor. Today she is still in the program and clean. I was hurt badly over it. The thing is that she was just sick also. Sometimes we need to learn that we are all equal! Hard to believe but that is just a fact. We are all one pebble on a huge beach and we need to get along.
With Love and Respect
Vic
Trying to do the right thing.
Join Date: May 2006
Location: London
Posts: 4,345
I Belive That Any Group of people since the Stone Age, have been doing what were disscussing....So its A Human thing and Does, not Disrimanate between gender either ,..Be you Male/female gay/stairght/ ...Its Only Human ...!
But Has already been said We are sick people in the Grip of Addiction,..and being a Codie Is another in Most Addicts Books ...Come on ...LOL...!
For me,...
You Have to be Aware whats going on and As a Woman in NA,..WE watch eachothers Backs ,...Yes we giggle at it aswell,...But Most importantly ,...WE Notice what is Being said and Who is Coming on to who or what ever is Going on Like in Every social circle !....
Thats Just how it Has been for Genarations...Before NA,..started ,...Ya Understand what Im Getting at
WERE ALL HUMAN.!
Just BE AWARE ....
...xXx...
But Has already been said We are sick people in the Grip of Addiction,..and being a Codie Is another in Most Addicts Books ...Come on ...LOL...!
For me,...
You Have to be Aware whats going on and As a Woman in NA,..WE watch eachothers Backs ,...Yes we giggle at it aswell,...But Most importantly ,...WE Notice what is Being said and Who is Coming on to who or what ever is Going on Like in Every social circle !....
Thats Just how it Has been for Genarations...Before NA,..started ,...Ya Understand what Im Getting at
WERE ALL HUMAN.!
Just BE AWARE ....
...xXx...
Trying to do the right thing.
Join Date: May 2006
Location: London
Posts: 4,345
I Totally Understand .!
Your concern for her and your right to watch Her back ,..!
Hell even the Blokes here will say things to us Women and Warn Us.!
My best Wishes are with you on this one...xXx...
...xXx...
Your concern for her and your right to watch Her back ,..!
Hell even the Blokes here will say things to us Women and Warn Us.!
My best Wishes are with you on this one...xXx...
...xXx...
Member
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Nowhere
Posts: 889
Originally Posted by Heartinpieces
Unless you are a WOMAN in the rooms of NA and have been preyed upon, I suggest you LISTEN because if you dont have EXPERIENCE with predators then you obviously do not know how it feels. And it does NOT feel good.
I WILL NOT ACCEPT UNACCEPTABLE BEHAVIOR. PERIOD.
IVE NEVER SEEN ANYWHERE IN THE LITERATURE ANYTHING ABOUT THE "13TH STEP", so that definition above up there seems bogus to me.
Obviously I am passionate about this but I really think its my RIGHT as a human being to NOT HAVE TO ACCEPT EVERYONE. Believe it or not, predators drive women out of the rooms ALL THE TIME.
I WILL NOT ACCEPT UNACCEPTABLE BEHAVIOR. PERIOD.
IVE NEVER SEEN ANYWHERE IN THE LITERATURE ANYTHING ABOUT THE "13TH STEP", so that definition above up there seems bogus to me.
Obviously I am passionate about this but I really think its my RIGHT as a human being to NOT HAVE TO ACCEPT EVERYONE. Believe it or not, predators drive women out of the rooms ALL THE TIME.
100% agreed. I'm all for accepting others, even their shortcomings but I do set boundaries and when those boundaries are crossed I'll protest it. andyaddict's babbling to justify predators makes me sick to my stomach.
Btw my best wishes to that girl, time2surrender, you're totally right to not sit back and let this happen, the ppl who just stand and watch they drag society (or in thise case an organization like NA) down, imo.
Marte
Member
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Nor Cal
Posts: 119
vic - what made me angry was the post above yours. i know I am sick and that's why I feel its soooo important for the rooms to be safe for ALL of us. i really like reading and respect what you say, so i apolgize if my post seemed directed at you.
i really think this is a very important topic and i'm glad that time2surrender posted it. even though it is considered an "outside issue" it seems to be a pretty big issue within most fellowships i've been in.
arura is right, i find it really important to watch other womens backs in regards to predators. and it seemed like time asked for some help in his original post, and since i've had some problems with predators, i thought i could offer my experience around this issue. i try to accept everyone that is sick but i have a personal issue about this topic and will 4th step it for a month!
i really think this is a very important topic and i'm glad that time2surrender posted it. even though it is considered an "outside issue" it seems to be a pretty big issue within most fellowships i've been in.
arura is right, i find it really important to watch other womens backs in regards to predators. and it seemed like time asked for some help in his original post, and since i've had some problems with predators, i thought i could offer my experience around this issue. i try to accept everyone that is sick but i have a personal issue about this topic and will 4th step it for a month!
NAIOU
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Last house on the block.
Posts: 359
There alot of men and women in meetings hitting on newcomers. It is my responsibility as a member of NA to step up and confront these people. That is why they suggest that the men stay with the men and the women stay with the women but this is not always the case. It is sad to see this happen. I tell the women that I meet and spend time with in the rooms that we can be friends and that is as far as it will go. I let them know up front so they don't have any expectations of might happen. Women need to tell men this right off the bat. Some are sicker than others. Arura: Do you know what they call a Codie relapse? A moment of compassion. T2S time to break out that sawed off I let you borrow. T2S you might want to step up to the men that try and hit on your daughter (yes thats right she is now you daughter to) and let them know what to expect if they give her a hard time. Love and Respect. Catfight
Certified NA Counselor
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Newport Beach Ca., US
Posts: 458
Allow me to clarify a bit more. I am not fond of selfish behavior to the extent of malice, the premeditated intent of satisfying ones desires of the flesh with no regards to the well-being of their partner. Neither am I fond of righteous judgment of my fellows.
I chose to expound on this topic in a recent meeting, amongst many other older-timers, as well as new members. I offered my philosophy as to why I have not chosen to succumb to my instinctual desires. I neither attacked the lifestyles of others, nor did I preach NA, moral, sexual etiquette. I simply chose to share my experience and lead by example.
I appreciated the analogy of meetings being "God's workshop." Understanding my duties in this workshop to be an attractive example of spiritual experience, I try to avoid standing in righteous judgment of others while sharing contempt for their behavior.
Yes, we can be one another’s eyes and ears, but if it is to be spiritual, it ought to be expressed in a loving caring way. Brutal honesty is aggression, if my intent is to belittle or shame others into submission I am not being responsible to my duties in God's workshop, I am in derelict of duty. If my motives are not fabricated of loving service to all parties, I find I am often corrupt and ought seek the REAL reason for my passion to lash out.
Just for today, I will resist the temptation to claim my moral supremacy at the expense of my fellows.
andyaddict
Los Angeles
I chose to expound on this topic in a recent meeting, amongst many other older-timers, as well as new members. I offered my philosophy as to why I have not chosen to succumb to my instinctual desires. I neither attacked the lifestyles of others, nor did I preach NA, moral, sexual etiquette. I simply chose to share my experience and lead by example.
I appreciated the analogy of meetings being "God's workshop." Understanding my duties in this workshop to be an attractive example of spiritual experience, I try to avoid standing in righteous judgment of others while sharing contempt for their behavior.
Yes, we can be one another’s eyes and ears, but if it is to be spiritual, it ought to be expressed in a loving caring way. Brutal honesty is aggression, if my intent is to belittle or shame others into submission I am not being responsible to my duties in God's workshop, I am in derelict of duty. If my motives are not fabricated of loving service to all parties, I find I am often corrupt and ought seek the REAL reason for my passion to lash out.
Just for today, I will resist the temptation to claim my moral supremacy at the expense of my fellows.
andyaddict
Los Angeles
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