Clean (-n- Sober!?) - SoberRecovery : Alcoholism Drug Addiction Help and Information

StrongR2Day · 10-07-2006, 03:52 PM

We've recently had an influx of people coming from the "other" 12 step program who identify themselves as addicts/alcoholics as well as clean and sober. At last weeks business meeting the issue was brought up, and it was decided we would make a statement (one approved by World Services) at the opening of the meeting dealing with the issue. I personally don't care how someone identifies themselves, as long as they don't use...but apparently others have concerns about "blurring" the message. We only have one NA meeting in the area for at least a 30 mile radius, so most people supplement their NA program with AA.

Has anyone else ran into this "problem" at your group? If so, how did you resolve it...or did you? I'm aware of what the basic text says, I just wanted some practical ideas and/or comments.

Thundar301 · 10-07-2006, 05:16 PM

Yes when i first found recovery in rehab and for a short time after I was in the sober living house I attended both A.A. and N.A. meetings. I had problems with both, but as i found my sponser and began to identify with the N.A. program I cut out my A.A. meeting and replaced them with N.A. meeting , but I still before sharing , would state "I am Dean an Alcohlic and a Addict" gave my clean time as both "clean and sober" and one night while out with a group of greybreads after a meeting, I was repeatedly refered to as two-bucker, they would giggle while i was wondering when i would be clued into the inside joke? well later on, oh a week or so, i finally got the nerve up to ask one of them , what was this whole two-bucker thing about. He then explained to me with kindness as long as kept on refering to myself as thought I two seperate diseases, I need to start put 2 dollars into the basket each meeting was passing I they were helping me with both my problems? but after talking to my sponser more about the situation I became understanding to the fact my disease was that of addictions in all its forms I could looking back replace one addictive behaviour with another and got let the cycle progress....I now am Clean and by Dean being Clean, Dean is also sober, so i don't worry about stating that.

Chance · 10-07-2006, 06:40 PM

This is the old saying "And A" when people talk. I could say I am Vic I am a addict and a alcoholic and a pervert and a shopping addict, and a

. What NA provides us with is the disease of addiction PERIOD. When someone introduces themselves in our group "addict/alcoholic" we say "alcohol is a drug so why must you think that you are unique. We are in the same boat and introducing yourself as both makes you think that you are special, or different. We also try to be tactful however some need to be shown in hard love.

that is me again....LOL

I know today that if I do go to a AA meeting I am a alcoholic, if I am going to my home group I am a addict, this also has to do with tradition 6 and of course tradition 3 in both programs. Anyway just my Opinion and like I say opinions are like ..... never mind trying to be open-minded

Love Vic

StrongR2Day · 10-07-2006, 06:57 PM

Thanks for sharing, Dean. My concern is the newer members that identify themselves as both, will be offended or put off by the reference to blurring the message (I don't think any of them have an NA sponsor, but I do know they all have at least a year of sobriety). Will they think they are being singled out?

Like I said, it doesn't bother me at all...I'd have probably left it alone realizing sooner or later these people would figure it out. I guess I just don't want newcomers thinking they have to watch their p's and q's. I realize we have to be distinctly seperate from the other organization, but does it really matter how a member refers to themself in the meeting? I guess, according to the rules, it does...so I voted in favor along with everyone else, but I did so with a little reservation.

We must have been typing at the same time, Vic. And I really do see the purpose, I guess I just don't see it as being a big deal. My biggest concern is that no one ever has to die from this disease, that's my bottom line.

Gooch · 10-07-2006, 07:00 PM

Lots of discussion has allready taken place about this topic.

http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...d-version.html

StrongR2Day · 10-07-2006, 08:12 PM

Thanks so much for that, and here I thought it was a new topic and I was the only one in all of NA who didn't approve of it. It helped to hear the different views, thanks for the link, I don't want to beat a dead horse.

andyaddict · 10-08-2006, 09:28 AM

In fact, there is NO approved statement. It was brought to the World Service Conference twice in the last 10 years and FAILED to get support for approval both times. Even the current World Board recommended against its inception.

Now you know.

a

REZ · 10-08-2006, 11:33 AM

Beside the "addict-alcoholic" or "cross-addicted" we have people who introduce themselves as "dope fiend," "junkie," "sick," "crazy," "problem with drugs," etc. We have not adopted any language in our home group on this issue. Aside from how this affects the newcomers, I worry about someone who insists on introducing himself or herself in this way. What they are doing, in effect, is somehow distinguishing themselves from the other people in the room. One of the tools of recovery, I believe, is to identify with people and not compare. We need to believe that we have a common problem and common solutions.

FarFromLoozen · 10-08-2006, 11:52 AM

"The only requirement for Membership is a desire to stop using"

That's clarification enough, isn't it?

After I have been in Rome long enough I will know how to "Do as the Roman's Do."
Until then, cultural mistakes will be made.

StrongR2Day · 10-08-2006, 12:44 PM

Quote:

What they are doing, in effect, is somehow distinguishing themselves from the other people in the room.

I have to respectfully disagree on this. I believe many of them are surprised, after working a 12 step program, to find themselves addicted to another substance. We have one gent 15 years sober, who got addicted to pain pills this year. I think it's hard for him to switch gears after so many years, and he also has to come to terms with his addiction sneaking up on him while very active in a recovery program. I think the remainder have had it pounded into their brains in treatment that they are addicts and alcoholics. I know back in the day, I was told to admit to both.

It just surprises me that we have to be PC in NA, it was the one place I always thought I could say whatever I wanted to without censor.

Blake · 10-08-2006, 04:30 PM

It's not a PC thing or a censor thing, if your home group chooses to read a clarity statement it is simply a suggestion, not a mandate for people to identify as addicts only. Our first step is dramatically different than other fellowships....hence the need to keep the focus on the disease of addiction.

I for one believe it very important for myself to identify as an addict only b/c it puts the focus on my disease of addiction rather than a symptom of my disease. In NA I have learned there is one disese, one program, one sponsor and one promise for me.

In my area, a clarity statement is read before every single meeting. What I have found is that it doesn't **** people off, it actually gets newcommers to ask questions like, "so what really is the big deal about the whole addict alcoholic thing" which gives me or other people in the program the opprotunity to talk about our first step, the disease of addiction and the concepts of honesty, personal responsibility and choice. I find it works well in my area.

When it all comes down to it, the only requirement for membership is a desire to stop using....EVERYTHING else is a suggestion, some very good inportant suggestions, but suggestions none the less...

StrongR2Day · 10-08-2006, 05:36 PM

I understand at least part of what you are saying, Blake. And more than anything, I want to be wrong on this. It's just this dang gut feeling that something isn't right about it.

Thanks for sharing, I needed to hear your input as well.

andyaddict · 10-08-2006, 05:58 PM

Quote:

What they are doing, in effect, is somehow distinguishing themselves from the other people in the room.

This is what the Clarity people do, they separate themselves from others in the room by focusing on what's different about how others introduce themselves. Clarity people think they are somehow different from the rest requiring special readings and political recognition.

a

Inspiringmind · 10-08-2006, 06:35 PM

To me this bothers me when people do this. Last night at a meeting someone had a year clean in NA and they shared about how wonderful it was to be sobor. I would never to go the other fellowship and share and say "My name is ....I am an alcholic/addict." Like a few others have said, Na is for addicts, it doesn't matter what kind of addiction you have...that's why I love NA so much.

andyaddict · 10-08-2006, 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inspiringmind

To me this bothers me when people do this. Last night at a meeting someone had a year clean in NA and they shared about how wonderful it was to be sobor. I would never to go the other fellowship and share and say "My name is ....I am an alcholic/addict." Like a few others have said, Na is for addicts, it doesn't matter what kind of addiction you have...that's why I love NA so much.

So NA is, or should be at least in your opinion, exclusive rather than inclusive eh?

a

Blake · 10-08-2006, 09:28 PM

yes andy NA is exclsively for people with the disease of addiction....it is all inclusive to those people with the disease of addiction though.

***Time2Surrender*** · 10-08-2006, 10:18 PM

Who cares how someone introduces themselves. This is why I never do AA anmore. The only thing I ever recall hearing in the format as far as introducing oneself was......"Please introduce yourself by your first name only so we can get to know you better" And perhaps the people out here in the Tualatin Valley Area of NA arent with the times, or just see things differently. Nobody around here gives a hoot whether its addict, recovering addict, addict/alcoholic, addicted, addict of all kinds, junkie, garbage can.................. I've heard them all. I dont care. All are welcome.

FarFromLoozen · 10-08-2006, 11:26 PM

Quote:

yes andy NA is exclsively for people with the disease of addiction

The World Health Organization acknowledged alcoholism as a serious medical problem in 1951, and the American Medical Association declared alcoholism as a treatable illness in 1956. The American Psychiatric Association began to use the term disease to describe alcoholism in 1965, and the American Medical Association followed in 1966.

The disease concept was originally applied only to alcoholism and has since been generalized to addiction to other drugs as well.

INCLUSIVE, yes indeed.

Blake · 10-09-2006, 07:05 AM

Exactally...."alcoholics" have the disease of addiction, the words "alcoholic" or "alcoholism" just put unessecary emphasis on a symptom of the disease rather than the disease itself.

Hi, I'm blake and I have heroinism........see it just sounds silly........heroin wasn't my problem, it was just a symptom of my problem. I am not powerless over heroin, I have a great deal of power over heroin, I can choose to put it in my body or not, what I am powerless over is the thought comming to me that tells me that heroin will fix me....This fact is the reason the "clarity statement" has been adopted by so many groups, it is rooted in the logic of our first step. THe term addict is all inclusive.

***Time2Surrender*** · 10-09-2006, 07:31 AM

Im addicted to Ford Trucks. Would that be "Fordism"?

Gooch · 10-09-2006, 08:00 AM

Years ago.. before I could spare the 1/2 hr to go to NA or relaized that just because I had never been arrested for smoking pot didn't mean i didn't have a problem wit that substance as well, I went to AA meetings.

There was this old dude who used to introduce himself as a recovered alcoholic who still went to meetings because he retained the ism.

So I actually heard the NA message before I ever got to a meeting, except I didn;t comprehend exactly what he was talking about. I do remember thinking that I was hearing something very important every time this gentleman spoke.

andyaddict · 10-09-2006, 08:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blake

Exactally...."alcoholics" have the disease of addiction, the words "alcoholic" or "alcoholism" just put unessecary emphasis on a symptom of the disease rather than the disease itself.

Why do you so insist on separating yourself from others by focusing on the differences Blakey? You just said NA is inclusive so why do you keep looking for reasons to exclude?

a

Blake · 10-09-2006, 08:27 AM

I'm not andrew, I have never been in a meeting that someone was excluded from b/c they introduced themselves as an "and a" or as simply an "alcoholic".

As luck would have it, last night at the meeting I went to, one that reads a clarity statement, a dude introduced himself as "my name is _______ and I'm an alcoholic" no one shut the dude sown, no one asked him to leave, no one got all pissy.....he hung around after the meeting and shot the bull with some of us. He was not excluded. Why? Because a clarity statement is simply a suggestion, anyone that thinks it is law has their own issues they need to deal with.

Chance · 10-09-2006, 09:02 AM

The other night in a meeting, I was saying as a addict with the disease of addiction that I can find myself covering up what is going on inside of me with anything. Why? Because I am a addict, I have a disease of addiction. This guy spoke up afterwards and said that this is Narcotics Anonymous it deals with just Narcotics. I would have loved to shoot him down in the meeting with the ego that I have but didn't find that necessary and the reason it probably didn't happen because I couldn't find what I wanted to in the NA literature right then and there.

I wen

10-07-2006, 03:52 PM	#1 (permalink)
StrongR2Day Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Somewhere there is peace of mind Posts: 211	Clean (-n- Sober!?) We've recently had an influx of people coming from the "other" 12 step program who identify themselves as addicts/alcoholics as well as clean and sober. At last weeks business meeting the issue was brought up, and it was decided we would make a statement (one approved by World Services) at the opening of the meeting dealing with the issue. I personally don't care how someone identifies themselves, as long as they don't use...but apparently others have concerns about "blurring" the message. We only have one NA meeting in the area for at least a 30 mile radius, so most people supplement their NA program with AA. Has anyone else ran into this "problem" at your group? If so, how did you resolve it...or did you? I'm aware of what the basic text says, I just wanted some practical ideas and/or comments.

10-07-2006, 06:40 PM	#3 (permalink)
Chance JUST DO IT!! Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Here Or There Posts: 7,090 Blog Entries: 9	This is the old saying "And A" when people talk. I could say I am Vic I am a addict and a alcoholic and a pervert and a shopping addict, and a . What NA provides us with is the disease of addiction PERIOD. When someone introduces themselves in our group "addict/alcoholic" we say "alcohol is a drug so why must you think that you are unique. We are in the same boat and introducing yourself as both makes you think that you are special, or different. We also try to be tactful however some need to be shown in hard love. that is me again....LOL I know today that if I do go to a AA meeting I am a alcoholic, if I am going to my home group I am a addict, this also has to do with tradition 6 and of course tradition 3 in both programs. Anyway just my Opinion and like I say opinions are like ..... never mind trying to be open-minded Love Vic __________________ With Love and Respect Vic Life isn't yesterday or tomorrow it is in the now.....

10-08-2006, 11:52 AM	#9 (permalink)
FarFromLoozen FarFromUzin Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Montana Posts: 72	*"The only requirement* for Membership is a desire to stop using" That's clarification enough, isn't it? After I have been in Rome long enough I will know how to "Do as the Roman's Do." Until then, cultural mistakes will be made. __________________ How indeed? He copes, like everybody else, as well as he can, that's all. And it's usually deplorably enough. Carl Gustav Jung _______________________________________________ NASCAR** fan . . . .

10-08-2006, 04:30 PM	#11 (permalink)
Blake I'm an addict. Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Hyde Park, NY Posts: 1,201	It's not a PC thing or a censor thing, if your home group chooses to read a clarity statement it is simply a suggestion, not a mandate for people to identify as addicts only. Our first step is dramatically different than other fellowships....hence the need to keep the focus on the disease of addiction. I for one believe it very important for myself to identify as an addict only b/c it puts the focus on my disease of addiction rather than a symptom of my disease. In NA I have learned there is one disese, one program, one sponsor and one promise for me. In my area, a clarity statement is read before every single meeting. What I have found is that it doesn't ** people off, it actually gets newcommers to ask questions like, "so what really is the big deal about the whole addict alcoholic thing" which gives me or other people in the program the opprotunity to talk about our first step, the disease of addiction and the concepts of honesty, personal responsibility and choice. I find it works well in my area. When it all comes down to it, the only requirement for membership is a desire to stop using....EVERYTHING else is a suggestion, some very good inportant suggestions, but suggestions none the less... __________________ Warning:** I'm a sick person so take any advice I may be spewing with a grain of salt, but it's what has worked for me, so far.

10-08-2006, 06:35 PM	#14 (permalink)
Inspiringmind Life...It's What's For Dinner Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Cheyenne, WY Posts: 45	Bothersome To me this bothers me when people do this. Last night at a meeting someone had a year clean in NA and they shared about how wonderful it was to be sobor. I would never to go the other fellowship and share and say "My name is ....I am an alcholic/addict." Like a few others have said, Na is for addicts, it doesn't matter what kind of addiction you have...that's why I love NA so much.

10-07-2006, 05:16 PM	#2 (permalink)
Thundar301 A Dopeless Hope Fiend Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: MID-MICHIGAN Posts: 207	Yes when i first found recovery in rehab and for a short time after I was in the sober living house I attended both A.A. and N.A. meetings. I had problems with both, but as i found my sponser and began to identify with the N.A. program I cut out my A.A. meeting and replaced them with N.A. meeting , but I still before sharing , would state "I am Dean an Alcohlic and a Addict" gave my clean time as both "clean and sober" and one night while out with a group of greybreads after a meeting, I was repeatedly refered to as two-bucker, they would giggle while i was wondering when i would be clued into the inside joke? well later on, oh a week or so, i finally got the nerve up to ask one of them , what was this whole two-bucker thing about. He then explained to me with kindness as long as kept on refering to myself as thought I two seperate diseases, I need to start put 2 dollars into the basket each meeting was passing I they were helping me with both my problems? but after talking to my sponser more about the situation I became understanding to the fact my disease was that of addictions in all its forms I could looking back replace one addictive behaviour with another and got let the cycle progress....I now am Clean and by Dean being Clean, Dean is also sober, so i don't worry about stating that.

10-07-2006, 06:57 PM	#4 (permalink)
StrongR2Day Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Somewhere there is peace of mind Posts: 211	Thanks for sharing, Dean. My concern is the newer members that identify themselves as both, will be offended or put off by the reference to blurring the message (I don't think any of them have an NA sponsor, but I do know they all have at least a year of sobriety). Will they think they are being singled out? Like I said, it doesn't bother me at all...I'd have probably left it alone realizing sooner or later these people would figure it out. I guess I just don't want newcomers thinking they have to watch their p's and q's. I realize we have to be distinctly seperate from the other organization, but does it really matter how a member refers to themself in the meeting? I guess, according to the rules, it does...so I voted in favor along with everyone else, but I did so with a little reservation. We must have been typing at the same time, Vic. And I really do see the purpose, I guess I just don't see it as being a big deal. My biggest concern is that no one ever has to die from this disease, that's my bottom line.

10-07-2006, 07:00 PM	#5 (permalink)
Gooch Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: out there... Posts: 2,668	Lots of discussion has allready taken place about this topic. http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...d-version.html

10-07-2006, 08:12 PM	#6 (permalink)
StrongR2Day Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Somewhere there is peace of mind Posts: 211	Thanks so much for that, and here I thought it was a new topic and I was the only one in all of NA who didn't approve of it. It helped to hear the different views, thanks for the link, I don't want to beat a dead horse.

10-08-2006, 09:28 AM	#7 (permalink)
andyaddict Certified NA Counselor Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Newport Beach Ca., US Posts: 168	In fact, there is NO approved statement. It was brought to the World Service Conference twice in the last 10 years and FAILED to get support for approval both times. Even the current World Board recommended against its inception. Now you know. a

10-08-2006, 11:33 AM	#8 (permalink)
REZ Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Chapel Hill, NC Posts: 987	Beside the "addict-alcoholic" or "cross-addicted" we have people who introduce themselves as "dope fiend," "junkie," "sick," "crazy," "problem with drugs," etc. We have not adopted any language in our home group on this issue. Aside from how this affects the newcomers, I worry about someone who insists on introducing himself or herself in this way. What they are doing, in effect, is somehow distinguishing themselves from the other people in the room. One of the tools of recovery, I believe, is to identify with people and not compare. We need to believe that we have a common problem and common solutions.

10-08-2006, 05:36 PM	#12 (permalink)
StrongR2Day Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Somewhere there is peace of mind Posts: 211	I understand at least part of what you are saying, Blake. And more than anything, I want to be wrong on this. It's just this dang gut feeling that something isn't right about it. Thanks for sharing, I needed to hear your input as well.

10-08-2006, 09:28 PM	#16 (permalink)
Blake I'm an addict. Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Hyde Park, NY Posts: 1,201	yes andy NA is exclsively for people with the disease of addiction....it is all inclusive to those people with the disease of addiction though. __________________ Warning: I'm a sick person so take any advice I may be spewing with a grain of salt, but it's what has worked for me, so far.

10-08-2006, 10:18 PM	#17 (permalink)
*Time2Surrender* Community Greeter Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Hillsboro,Oregon Soon to be Washington State Posts: 6,335 Blog Entries: 3	Who cares how someone introduces themselves. This is why I never do AA anmore. The only thing I ever recall hearing in the format as far as introducing oneself was......"Please introduce yourself by your first name only so we can get to know you better" And perhaps the people out here in the Tualatin Valley Area of NA arent with the times, or just see things differently. Nobody around here gives a hoot whether its addict, recovering addict, addict/alcoholic, addicted, addict of all kinds, junkie, garbage can.................. I've heard them all. I dont care. All are welcome. __________________ "Jack and Diane" painted a picture of my life and my dreams, Suddenly this crazy world made more sense to me Well I heard it today and I couldn't help but sing along Cause everytime I hear that song...

10-09-2006, 07:05 AM	#19 (permalink)
Blake I'm an addict. Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Hyde Park, NY Posts: 1,201	Exactally...."alcoholics" have the disease of addiction, the words "alcoholic" or "alcoholism" just put unessecary emphasis on a symptom of the disease rather than the disease itself. Hi, I'm blake and I have heroinism........see it just sounds silly........heroin wasn't my problem, it was just a symptom of my problem. I am not powerless over heroin, I have a great deal of power over heroin, I can choose to put it in my body or not, what I am powerless over is the thought comming to me that tells me that heroin will fix me....This fact is the reason the "clarity statement" has been adopted by so many groups, it is rooted in the logic of our first step. THe term addict is all inclusive. __________________ Warning: I'm a sick person so take any advice I may be spewing with a grain of salt, but it's what has worked for me, so far.

10-09-2006, 07:31 AM	#20 (permalink)
*Time2Surrender* Community Greeter Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Hillsboro,Oregon Soon to be Washington State Posts: 6,335 Blog Entries: 3	Im addicted to Ford Trucks. Would that be "Fordism"? __________________ "Jack and Diane" painted a picture of my life and my dreams, Suddenly this crazy world made more sense to me Well I heard it today and I couldn't help but sing along Cause everytime I hear that song...

10-09-2006, 08:00 AM	#21 (permalink)
Gooch Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: out there... Posts: 2,668	Years ago.. before I could spare the 1/2 hr to go to NA or relaized that just because I had never been arrested for smoking pot didn't mean i didn't have a problem wit that substance as well, I went to AA meetings. There was this old dude who used to introduce himself as a recovered alcoholic who still went to meetings because he retained the ism. So I actually heard the NA message before I ever got to a meeting, except I didn;t comprehend exactly what he was talking about. I do remember thinking that I was hearing something very important every time this gentleman spoke.

10-09-2006, 08:27 AM	#23 (permalink)
Blake I'm an addict. Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Hyde Park, NY Posts: 1,201	I'm not andrew, I have never been in a meeting that someone was excluded from b/c they introduced themselves as an "and a" or as simply an "alcoholic". As luck would have it, last night at the meeting I went to, one that reads a clarity statement, a dude introduced himself as "my name is _______ and I'm an alcoholic" no one shut the dude sown, no one asked him to leave, no one got all pissy.....he hung around after the meeting and shot the bull with some of us. He was not excluded. Why? Because a clarity statement is simply a suggestion, anyone that thinks it is law has their own issues they need to deal with. __________________ Warning: I'm a sick person so take any advice I may be spewing with a grain of salt, but it's what has worked for me, so far.