Comparing mental to physical illnesses.

[BSPGirl]

Hey,

I see this happen a lot. (especially with depression related stuff and anxiety) And imho it makes no sense at all.

If you're diabetic, it's clear, your body doesn't produce insulin, you need to get insuline thru injections/pills, whatever. No dr would go say 'oh just try this type of insulin and if that doesn't work try this or we'll up the dosage' no you just look at the glucose meter and ya know what to do. Even better would be if ya break your leg and a dr goes into treatment options and which one ya feel most comfy with, everybody would stare at that dr, for sure.

Now let's say you're depressed. There are ppl who come up like 'it's just a chemical inbalance, the serotonin doesn't stay in the synapses long enough, here's a SSRI, take it and you'll feel better'. While serotonin most likely plays a role in the whole process, there's no scientific proof. Nobody has yet been able to really understand the inside/outside processes that play a role in mental illnesses. There are strong points sometimes (for example with schizophrenia) and I by no means say nobody will ever get helped by medication for psychiatric complaints.

But don't bring up that old 'if you had diabetes would you refuse insulin?' if someone refuses to take anti depressants.

Marte

[BSPGirl]

Originally Posted by SweetNuff

I don't think it really matters what it's called, what causes it, or how it is treated, depression can and often is debilitating and sometimes fatal.

I'm not argueing here that mental illnesses aren't a serious matter. I do think it matters what causes it and how it's treated, tho. When you know what causes a certain illness you can treat it more effectively. Effective treatment lowers the mortality rates and improves someone's life quality.

Marte

[ranae1221]

i do agree with you, often mental illness is not considered "important" as a physical illness.

here is a perfect example- my roomate Shirley was in the hospital several times last year, had 3 pretty major surgieries. The first 2 were unexpected, unplanned. Both those 2 times she was not given her antidepressant, which made her depression severely worse, and increased her confusion dramaticaly. It was horrible. I several times asked the nurses to do something, get her back on her antidepressant, call the doctor, anything. It was brushed off as no big deal.

The 3rd operation was planned, and I asked the suregon beforehand to PLEASE make sure her antidepressant was continued. He replied that because she had to be NPO (nothing by mouth) for awhile there was nothing he could do.

This p*ssed me off, because if she were diabetic, or had a heart condition, would they not give her medication, just saying "oh well"?? But because it was "just depression" it was chalked up to nothing important.

It was one of the most frustrating things to go through, knowing what the problem was when she was so confused, and yet no one caring to do anything.

[equus]

I get where you're coming from but I think it's a little nieve to think treatments aren't adjusted and changed in 'physical' illnesses. There are MANY illnesses we have completely understood - and years ago many more!!

Science isn't an end product, it's a process and whether a patient refuses Chemo for cancer or AD's for depression that should be respected as an informed choice, these are often personal choices.

I'm not a believer in god or the soul, I live in a reality where I believe my personality has physical basis, my control and self will come from my physical make up and functioning frontal lobes (amongst other brain areas). I believe I have my genes to thank for my ability to even consider these issues. To me there is no logical reason to consider the neck up as less physical than the neck down. When my body dies - I will die because I am physical. All that is left is the effects on this earth of my choices, and all that's given is the biology to support free will, therefore I try to live well.

[mrswoogie]

I don't know if I get the gist of your post. It seems as if you are saying that because you can get a specific value and treat a condition with a single medication, that makes it a disease. On the other hand, having to identify the culprit out of over 50 possible neurotransmitters, in a trial and error fashion, makes mental illness less of a disease, something one can fix on their own.

No dr would go say 'oh just try this type of insulin and if that doesn't work try this or we'll up the dosage' no you just look at the glucose meter and ya know what to do.

It is evident you do not know anyone who is diabetic. It's not "looking at the glucose meter and knowing what to do." Diabetes is a horrible condition to deal with constantly.
To begin, there are many different types of insulin:

• Lantus
• Ultralente (U)
• Lente (L)
• NPH (NPH)
• Regular (R)
• Humalog
• Novolog
• 70/30 Humulin
• 70/30 Novolin
• 70/30 Novolog
• 50/50 Humulin
• 75/25 Humalog mix

Long-acting insulun (Ultralente or Lantus) is given the same time each day, irrespective of meals. Rapid-acting insulun (Humalog or Novolog) act withn minutes, when your blood sugar is out of control and needs to be stabilized, immediately. The mid-range action types (NPH or L) or the short-acting Regular will change on a meal-to-meal basis. You must anticipate the effect of what you are planning to eat in relation to what you've eaten already today. You must test before eating, calculate the number of units you anticipate you'll need, do the injection, eat exactly what you've dosed for, then recheck an hour or so later to calculate any unplanned fluctuation in your levels, then inject with the correct type of insulin to balance it out. Activity level, hidden ingredients in food, stress and time of day can have drastic effects on your blood sugar, resulting in adjustment of units, what combination of insulin must be given, and the number of injections required.

Now, if you do not have enough insulin available, your body will start to use fat for energy instead of glucose. This is confirmed by a urinalysis that will show if your body is producing ketones. A low level of ketones indicates your insulin level is getting critically low and must be adjusted immediately (again, by calculating the amount and type of insulin needed). Urine must be tested again in a few hours, to do the process all over again. If the ketone levels are high, your body is, in essence, poisoning itself. If your ketones are high in conjunction with high blood sugar levels, damage to the kidneys and heart begins, and exercising in this condition can result in a heart attack, stroke or kidney failure.

Sorry to go on and on, but it is essential to recognize any serious illness, be it mental or physical, results from a multitude of factors. Yes, if you have a headache, you take Advil. On the other hand, diabetes is not just a matter of testing your blood and taking a simple injection. No only does the treatment have to be individualized for each patient, a patient is rarely the same on a day-to-day (even hour-to-hour) basis. It's basically spending the rest of your life in a trial-and-error situation, with your life on the line. Likewise, mental illness is a disease that must be treated on an individual basis, with constant trial-and-error with treatment dosages and therapies. Even worse, mental illness is not quantifiable in any way, so a doctor cannot even use a labratory test to have as a starting point for treatment -- the most likely culprit must be addressed. If the patient doesn't get relief from the 1st treatment option, interplay between different medications and lack/overage of the responsible neurotransmitters must be considered. Situational factors, substance abuse, hormonal changes, activity levels, family support, diet and so forth can all contribute to the success of the drug therapy.

I apologize for my bluntness, but beginning from the incorrect premise that diabetes is a disease because it is simply treated from a single test value, while catagorizing mental illness as "not" a disease because it has multiple contributory factors treated on a trial and error basis is ridiculous. Not to mention dangerous and unkind.

Having an opinion is fine -- just make sure it is backed up with solid research.

[shutterbug]

I totally disagree...sometimes the ONLY way to explain what I have had to go through is to liken it to things like diabeties (which I now have) and cancer. All are potentially deadly and ALL have physical sypmtoms and reactions.

MY depressions are VERY physical in nature. AND there are many scientist who have realized that mental illness shows up in brain scans and other types of testing. Some areas of the brain actually grow larger in people with certian types of mental illness as time goes on.

I very much treat my bipolar disorder like I do my diabetis. I know that if I eat too much sugar or carbs then I will feel ill and get very sleepy. I also know that if I don't get much sleep tonight that I will become at least slightly manic the following day and then dive into a slight depression.

Therefore...I monitor what I eat to keep my diabetes in check AND I monitor my sleep (and stress and many other things) to keep my mental illness in check.

Mental illness is chemical and physcial and psychologic...all in one. THAT's why it's so tricky to pin down...and why it's so different from person to person and why not every bipolar needs the same meds to keep them stable.

Anyway ...I have to go, but I wanted to give my two cents on the topic since I whole-heartedly and completely disagree.

Just because nobody has pinpointed and nailed down mental illness to the same degree as diabetis...that doesn't mean it's not just as physical...it just means that it isn't as simple as diabetis. And there are hundreds of physcial illnesses that are the same way too...some are just easier to medicate and explain than others. (plus...we are just now in the beginning of the technology age that is allowing scientists to really study the brain and all that jazz - this wasn't the case even 1/2 a century ago....just give it some time, it'll come...that I'm sure of. Just look at brain scans and imaging that have come into mainstream medicine...do you think they were ever able to study mental illness in such a physical frame 50 years ago?)

[BSPGirl]

I put this rather black/white as to spark a decent discussion. I see you guys picked up on that pretty well. I'll reply to each and every one of you later on.

My point is that ppl have choices, I guess. I'll read and reply later on.

Marte

[BSPGirl]

Originally Posted by equus

I get where you're coming from but I think it's a little nieve to think treatments aren't adjusted and changed in 'physical' illnesses. There are MANY illnesses we have completely understood - and years ago many more!!

Science isn't an end product, it's a process and whether a patient refuses Chemo for cancer or AD's for depression that should be respected as an informed choice, these are often personal choices.

I'm not a believer in god or the soul, I live in a reality where I believe my personality has physical basis, my control and self will come from my physical make up and functioning frontal lobes (amongst other brain areas). I believe I have my genes to thank for my ability to even consider these issues. To me there is no logical reason to consider the neck up as less physical than the neck down. When my body dies - I will die because I am physical. All that is left is the effects on this earth of my choices, and all that's given is the biology to support free will, therefore I try to live well.

Well this is kinda what I meant. We all have choices. Mental illnesses aren't purely a chemisty/physical matter I believe tho, so that's why I think it's just a bit of a crippled comparisation. Yes with physical illnesses you have a choice yourself too but you will leave more to the hands of the medical professional, simply cuz science knows more about these matters than about what exactly causes depression. Ie: long term side effects of anti depressants, well there isn't much known about it. I don't blame dr's cuz it's simply not properly researched. New therapies arise, science evolves, yes, that's a good thing. I, by no means, judge anyone, compare illnesses like one is worse than the other or whatever, just to make that clear.

Marte

[BSPGirl]

Originally Posted by ranae1221

i do agree with you, often mental illness is not considered "important" as a physical illness.

here is a perfect example- my roomate Shirley was in the hospital several times last year, had 3 pretty major surgieries. The first 2 were unexpected, unplanned. Both those 2 times she was not given her antidepressant, which made her depression severely worse, and increased her confusion dramaticaly. It was horrible. I several times asked the nurses to do something, get her back on her antidepressant, call the doctor, anything. It was brushed off as no big deal.

The 3rd operation was planned, and I asked the suregon beforehand to PLEASE make sure her antidepressant was continued. He replied that because she had to be NPO (nothing by mouth) for awhile there was nothing he could do.

This p*ssed me off, because if she were diabetic, or had a heart condition, would they not give her medication, just saying "oh well"?? But because it was "just depression" it was chalked up to nothing important.

It was one of the most frustrating things to go through, knowing what the problem was when she was so confused, and yet no one caring to do anything.

I'm sorry that happened to your friend, yes, that seems rather silly that they couldn't adjust those meds by IV. Normally they ask here if you use any medications and put that in your IV.

Marte

[BSPGirl]

Originally Posted by mrswoogie

I don't know if I get the gist of your post. It seems as if you are saying that because you can get a specific value and treat a condition with a single medication, that makes it a disease. On the other hand, having to identify the culprit out of over 50 possible neurotransmitters, in a trial and error fashion, makes mental illness less of a disease, something one can fix on their own.



It is evident you do not know anyone who is diabetic. It's not "looking at the glucose meter and knowing what to do." Diabetes is a horrible condition to deal with constantly.
To begin, there are many different types of insulin:

• Lantus
• Ultralente (U)
• Lente (L)
• NPH (NPH)
• Regular (R)
• Humalog
• Novolog
• 70/30 Humulin
• 70/30 Novolin
• 70/30 Novolog
• 50/50 Humulin
• 75/25 Humalog mix

Long-acting insulun (Ultralente or Lantus) is given the same time each day, irrespective of meals. Rapid-acting insulun (Humalog or Novolog) act withn minutes, when your blood sugar is out of control and needs to be stabilized, immediately. The mid-range action types (NPH or L) or the short-acting Regular will change on a meal-to-meal basis. You must anticipate the effect of what you are planning to eat in relation to what you've eaten already today. You must test before eating, calculate the number of units you anticipate you'll need, do the injection, eat exactly what you've dosed for, then recheck an hour or so later to calculate any unplanned fluctuation in your levels, then inject with the correct type of insulin to balance it out. Activity level, hidden ingredients in food, stress and time of day can have drastic effects on your blood sugar, resulting in adjustment of units, what combination of insulin must be given, and the number of injections required.

Now, if you do not have enough insulin available, your body will start to use fat for energy instead of glucose. This is confirmed by a urinalysis that will show if your body is producing ketones. A low level of ketones indicates your insulin level is getting critically low and must be adjusted immediately (again, by calculating the amount and type of insulin needed). Urine must be tested again in a few hours, to do the process all over again. If the ketone levels are high, your body is, in essence, poisoning itself. If your ketones are high in conjunction with high blood sugar levels, damage to the kidneys and heart begins, and exercising in this condition can result in a heart attack, stroke or kidney failure.

Sorry to go on and on, but it is essential to recognize any serious illness, be it mental or physical, results from a multitude of factors. Yes, if you have a headache, you take Advil. On the other hand, diabetes is not just a matter of testing your blood and taking a simple injection. No only does the treatment have to be individualized for each patient, a patient is rarely the same on a day-to-day (even hour-to-hour) basis. It's basically spending the rest of your life in a trial-and-error situation, with your life on the line. Likewise, mental illness is a disease that must be treated on an individual basis, with constant trial-and-error with treatment dosages and therapies. Even worse, mental illness is not quantifiable in any way, so a doctor cannot even use a labratory test to have as a starting point for treatment -- the most likely culprit must be addressed. If the patient doesn't get relief from the 1st treatment option, interplay between different medications and lack/overage of the responsible neurotransmitters must be considered. Situational factors, substance abuse, hormonal changes, activity levels, family support, diet and so forth can all contribute to the success of the drug therapy.

I apologize for my bluntness, but beginning from the incorrect premise that diabetes is a disease because it is simply treated from a single test value, while catagorizing mental illness as "not" a disease because it has multiple contributory factors treated on a trial and error basis is ridiculous. Not to mention dangerous and unkind.

Having an opinion is fine -- just make sure it is backed up with solid research.

This was not a scientific article I wrote and I also am no medical professional. Yes diabetes is crippling and so is any mental illness. My point isn't that lab tests make anything more of a disease than the other and I dunno what classifies as a disease anyway. What I do know tho that to a certain point you're more able to help yourself feel better when you got a mental illness than when you got a physical illness, but to a certain point. Of course science evolves, of course not all therapies work for everybody but with a physical illness it's just more clear what needs to be done, makes it easier in some way and in others it makes it harder. It's like comparing apples and grapefruits, yes they're both fruits, but yet so different.

Marte

[BSPGirl]

Originally Posted by shutterbug

I totally disagree...sometimes the ONLY way to explain what I have had to go through is to liken it to things like diabeties (which I now have) and cancer. All are potentially deadly and ALL have physical sypmtoms and reactions.

MY depressions are VERY physical in nature. AND there are many scientist who have realized that mental illness shows up in brain scans and other types of testing. Some areas of the brain actually grow larger in people with certian types of mental illness as time goes on.

I very much treat my bipolar disorder like I do my diabetis. I know that if I eat too much sugar or carbs then I will feel ill and get very sleepy. I also know that if I don't get much sleep tonight that I will become at least slightly manic the following day and then dive into a slight depression.

Therefore...I monitor what I eat to keep my diabetes in check AND I monitor my sleep (and stress and many other things) to keep my mental illness in check.

Mental illness is chemical and physcial and psychologic...all in one. THAT's why it's so tricky to pin down...and why it's so different from person to person and why not every bipolar needs the same meds to keep them stable.

Anyway ...I have to go, but I wanted to give my two cents on the topic since I whole-heartedly and completely disagree.

Just because nobody has pinpointed and nailed down mental illness to the same degree as diabetis...that doesn't mean it's not just as physical...it just means that it isn't as simple as diabetis. And there are hundreds of physcial illnesses that are the same way too...some are just easier to medicate and explain than others. (plus...we are just now in the beginning of the technology age that is allowing scientists to really study the brain and all that jazz - this wasn't the case even 1/2 a century ago....just give it some time, it'll come...that I'm sure of. Just look at brain scans and imaging that have come into mainstream medicine...do you think they were ever able to study mental illness in such a physical frame 50 years ago?)

I'm not denying there isn't a physical part in mental illnesses, but they're just not purely physical cuz research has shown that a treatment of (appropriate for the problem) therapy and (the right) medication combined turns out to be the most effective to help ppl with mental illnesses. This makes them complicated but it also means the comparisation is a lil crippled.

Marte

[equus]

Mental illnesses aren't purely a chemisty/physical matter I believe tho, so that's why I think it's just a bit of a crippled comparisation.

I think this is still a nieve view of medicine. Physical illnesses are effected by all kinds of psychological factors. There is a very good reason why placebos are a consistant part of drug trials - just the BELIEF someone is taking a pill to help ANY physical disorder has a HIGH likelyhood of showing positive physical results.

The brain is both the most complex organ and the one we have had the least ability to view working until fairly recently (in comparison to other body parts). It is also the organ arguabley most heavily effected by our behaviour and beliefs (not that other organs aren't - check out the effects f stress on the heart!). These things means that we aren't as far along in our understanding but that doesn't mean by default it's less physical or that these thing CAN'T be understood in the way other organs are - just that we are not there yet.

AD's and all kinds of treatments will play a part in that learning curve of science - anyone should be allowed informed choice.

In 'physical' (ehem neck down organs) the same should be true, patients should be informed and respected. I think it's a healthy attitude to any illness to be pro-active in treatments, learning, reading and not presuming perfect knowledge from those in white coats - neck up or down!!

[shutterbug]

Originally Posted by Marte

What I do know tho that to a certain point you're more able to help yourself feel better when you got a mental illness than when you got a physical illness, but to a certain point

Marte...you could reverse your above statement and it would still be true: "..You're more able to help yourself feel better when you got a physical illness than when you got a mental illness, but to a certain point."

"To a certain point", all humans are capable of helping themselves feel better regardless of if they are dealing with a mental illness OR a physical illness.

There are tons of ways I have learned to combat my mental illness to varying degrees - BUT no amount of will-power, coping skills, talk therapy, group therapy, light therapy, meds was able to bring me out of the dark hell hole I was in for nearly 2 years during my major depressive episode. I tried my damnedest to do everything in my power to "help myself feel better" and the result of all those combined efforts was only a slightly better Hell - if there is such a thing.

I personally believe that there in nothing more I could have done (except for ECT, which I couldn't do b/c of no insurance after losing my job). My body and mind came back to me when my episode was over - end of story. It was a waiting game. I knew I would get well again, but not knowing when was sheer tourture. I had to put it all in God's hands.

And even now, with my continued thirst for knowledge in this area and my continuing to learn how to minimize the affects of my disease, I still know that my physical body has the last say in the matter. However, with my continued meds and coping skills...I believe my next major depression will be a brief stroll through Hell in comparison to the marathon of exhaustion and dispair on top of exhaustion and dispair that I just went through.

It's like having cancer that's in remission right now.
It can come back at any time.
And having gone through it once, things are learned along the way to help keep the body healthier and with better chances for staying cancer-free.
BUT...there's never any guarentee.
Cancer often returns and has to be battled again and again - just like my major depressions and ultimetly there is nothing I personally can do to stop it.

Originally Posted by Marte

I'm not denying there isn't a physical part in mental illnesses, but they're just not purely physical cuz research has shown that a treatment of (appropriate for the problem) therapy and (the right) medication combined turns out to be the most effective to help ppl with mental illnesses. This makes them complicated but it also means the comparisation is a lil crippled.

Yes...I know all about the research you speak of because I tell that to many people I come in contact with who are dealing with mental illnesses. I've experienced the healing power of individual and group therapy. BUT that doesn't prove that mental illness isn't a purely physical disease - not by a long shot.

Let me explain: Going back to the example of a person fighting cancer: Obviously you will agree that cancer is a purely physical illness, right? Well, how many times have you heard or read about positive attitudes helping cancer patients survive their illness or heal faster?

Fighting cancer, I'm sure, has caused many people to dip into the world of "depression" and then many of those seek out a therapist to help them deal with their situation on an emotional level...and many search out other cancer patients and survivors to connect with (group support/therapy) -- ALL THE SAME AS SOMEONE DEALING WITH MENTAL ILLNESS!

So cancer starts out physical and leads to emotional problems also.

And dealing with their emotional issues...helps them deal with their physical illness.

Studies have proven that developing a positive/hopeful/can-do outlook is very effective in helping anyone survive a serious illness.

It doesn't mean that cancer turns into mental illness does it? No, of course not,...it just means that illness of any kind is hard on us as human beings and the more roads we travel toward overcoming our situation...the better we are able to do just that.

I think the main reason people get so confused about this issue is because the same term is used for situational depression and the disease of depression.

In the above example, the cancer patient is dealing with situational depression. In our cases, we are mentally ill people who ALSO have to deal with situational depression just like the rest of the humans on this planet.

Situational depression can be talked through and lessened or absolved with time - real depression can't.

I wish someone would put new words into mainstream use to differentiate the two because they are clearly and TOTALLY DIFFERENT yet most people don't know that and can't understand it. I believe this is one of the biggest hurdles that must be jumped if we are to ever make a real dent in the stigmas about mental illness.

Let's just call situational depression something like UTOC (pronounced like "You Talk") for: Unable TO Cope.

We all have been there at some point or another...we all know what it's like and how it works. We all come to times in our lives when we can't handle what's being placed on us and we don't know how we are going to make it through the situation. I recently had to put a very beloved pet of mine to sleep and I've broke down in tears many times over it. Even now tears well up. This is a result of the UTOC part of my pet's death. Now the UTOC part of my major depression was much heavier than the loss of my pet (of 6 years) because with my major depression I was facing losing myself - which I've had for 30 years now.

But still, can you see how the UTOC was an added difficulty to my major depression?


So let's all learn it together:

UTOC = situational depression (that can be treated w/ therapy)

The Disease of Depression/Mental Illness = must be treated by physical means(i.e. meds, electro shock therapy, etc).

Depression, as in the mental illness kind, is a totally different creature than most people will ever really understand. And those who truely understand it know that it is as much a physical illness as diabetis or cancer.

[shutterbug]

Equus...Yes...I completely forgot to mention the placebo affect...Thank you.

[shutterbug]

Originally Posted by Equus

I think it's a healthy attitude to any illness to be pro-active in treatments, learning, reading and not presuming perfect knowledge from those in white coats - neck up or down!!

I love it! Well said.

[Lilya]

Just a quick word on Electro shock therapy. When I was working to finance my University studies, I worked as an art therapist in a mental hospital during summers, weekends, Easter break, etc. Since the hospital was short staffed I was asked to assist the pshyciatrists and one of my duties was to escort patients to receive Electro shock therapy. We´re talking major, major depression. I had a woman patient who had been in bed for years. I stayed with her before and after each treatment and I was amazed to see the change in her. After one week she had dressed, stood by the window and smiled when I came in to see her: "Isn´t this a beautiful day?"

There is a famous case history of an electrician who came to fix the lights in the recreation room. He had suffered from stiff shoulders and neck pain for 30years that caused him terrible headaches. Nothing seemed to relieve it and he was constantly on meds and in physiotherapy. Well, he was fixing the lights when there was a short-circuit and he fell on the floor unconscious. He had an electro shock. The doctors rushed over and when he came to, the neck and shoulder pain was gone. It never returned, and no one knows how the electro shock cured it.

[shutterbug]

Originally Posted by Lilya

Just a quick word on Electro shock therapy... We´re talking major, major depression. I had a woman patient who had been in bed for years.

Yes...I spent 90 percent of 2005 in bed...and of the rest, 5 percent of that out of bed was about as difficult as climbing Mt. Everest to the top - but you do what you have to so as not to wet all over yourself and your bed. I really should have spent that year in an Assisted Living Center of some sort b/c my quality of life was non-existent.

Even though there are still some risks w/ ECT, it has a 70-90 percent success rate in depressives and as you mentioned the results are usually quick and dramatic. If I ever go back to that place again and have insurance I will gladly choose ECT.

(In my opinion, ECT is equal to major depression as Kemo is equal to cancer - both have risks, but both have near miraculous chances results).

[BSPGirl]

ECT can be a treatment option if nothing else helps, yes, I agree. Guess my point is we all have choices.

Marte

[Lilya]

Guess my point is we all have choices.

That´s true in many ways, Marte. But the electrician in question didn´t have any choice, did he?

[shutterbug]

yes...we all have choices, just know the choice of getting it or not in the first place.

But I think if you research ECT and how affective it is as a treatment for depression...then I don't see how you could deny that mental illness is as much a physical illness as any other physical illness.

And just FYI, this issue probably strikes a nerve with me more because of my near unbareable struggles with the physical affects of a majore depressive over the past couple of years.

I think it takes away a part of the "human" element when people talk about mental illness as though it is not a physical one, like any other illness. Stigmas are all too real and they have had a major and very negative impact on my life during this last episode so I take these kinds of topics very seriously...I hope you understand.

Hugs,
Jenna

[BSPGirl]

Originally Posted by shutterbug

I think it takes away a part of the "human" element when people talk about mental illness as though it is not a physical one, like any other illness. Stigmas are all too real and they have had a major and very negative impact on my life during this last episode so I take these kinds of topics very seriously...I hope you understand.

Jenna,

I'm sorry you took it that way cuz imo that's exactly what it does, when you only talk about the biochemistry and neurons misfiring in the brain you take away the human factor, the enviromental factor. This in my opinion only encourages the idea one can never get any better. It's like 'oh I'm sick, just a shortcut in my brain wiring, can't do anything about it, I'm just bipolar/depressed/any other mental illness.'. Maybe I'm naieve when I keep thinking you can do a lot about your mental health yourself by changing negative thought/behavioral patterns. When you got diabetes you got that, nothing you can really do about it. I doubt REBT will help curing the diabetes. (well REBT could be good dealing with such a serious illness, tho ). See my point? I emphasize again that I do not want to stigmatize as I think that's really a very malicious thing. Nowdays all the dx's thrown around encourage labeling and stigmatizing.

Sincerly,
Marte

[2dayzmuse]

We all have choices, but what if you are to ill to make the proper beneficial choices?

[equus]

It's like 'oh I'm sick, just a shortcut in my brain wiring, can't do anything about it, I'm just bipolar/depressed/any other mental illness.'

Again - BPS, being ill physically doesn't make a person powerless to effect their own recovery. If someone tells me I have bronchitis then my attitude to getting well will have some effect - if someone sells me a pill I TRULY believe will cure the bronchitis, it will likely have a clinical impact even if it is only made of chalk.

The attitude to sickness you talk about has detremental effects on ALL kinds of illnesses, neck up and down!! Of COURSE having an empowered attitude has even more effect on the mind because of the human brain's plasticity. That's why outside treatment for depression can be so important, not just the pills but the traetment involving people who can encourage and offer what depression has taken from the person going through it.

One of the simplest things I did when D was very depressed wss to TELL him every time something had gone well - his own positive feedback was screwed but that doesn't mean it made no difference to hear when something had gone well. That's not at odds with it being physical - all you have to 'get' is that the human side of us IS physical, there is no boundary. Perhaps for those who believe in a soul it's more complicated, that doesn't include me I'm afraid.

[mrswoogie]

At the root of it all, we all have a choice to make: to do the wrong thing or the right thing. I think that biochemistry can make it much, much more difficult to make the correct decision -- but we still use our morality as a yardstick.

Here's an example: a psychology/sociology department at a university was conducting a study on the power of motivation in relation to right & wrong. The offered the students increasing money to lay in bed all day -- and to, for lack of a better word, poop in the bed. The fact that activity is so primally "wrong" led to NONE of the students being able to accomplish the task; not for $500, $750, and so on.

My point is, no matter how ill a person is, our basic sense of what is right and what is wrong is so ingrained, so much a part of our upbringing, that very few people are able to act in an immoral way (murder, rape, sexual abuse of children). The small, small section of our population that does engage in such things is most likely to have had a horrible, horrible childhood; not an excuse for what they've done, but a total lack of instillation of such values. In a much more serious sense, a child whom has never been taught piano, never plinked on the keys, will not get to adulthood, sit down and play Chopin. There may be an exception from time to time, someone who is almost pre-programmed to play the piano, but mostly it's from very early exposure on a regular basis, practice and reinforcement. An adult can take lessons and get quite good without early training, but it's unlikely. Likewise, very few people just decide one day, "Hmmm, I think it would be fun to kill some people. I believe I'll do that." It (for the most part) comes from years of early exposure to violence on a regular basis and reinforcement of the behavior (murder=getting what I want). The person still has to make the decision to follow through with the behavior. Some people may become adults and just decide to commit a violent crime, but most of us, even with mental illness, have that internal rheostat that says, "Nope, not an option."

I think calling horrible criminals "sick" or "mentally ill" is an insult to all of us who deal with it on a daily basis. Mental illness may be a contributing factor, even leading one to steal, lie, drink, do drugs -- no amount of mental illness is going to make a person go against what they inherently know is wrong.

Blah, blah, blah -- I do go on, huh?

[Lilya]

I think calling horrible criminals "sick" or "mentally ill" is an insult to all of us who deal with it on a daily basis. Mental illness may be a contributing factor, even leading one to steal, lie, drink, do drugs -- no amount of mental illness is going to make a person go against what they inherently know is wrong.

This is thought provoking and I think it´s good to reflect on these things. I disagree with this comment from mrswoogie, because my untreated mental illness, drug-taking and drinking steered me towards criminal activities. I stopped seeing what was right and what was wrong. The line between dignity and dishonesty got blurred. I was arrested, and I still didn´t think I did anything wrong. I blamed it on someone else. Society, my parents, whatever was there. The reason for all this negative behaviour was not taking responsability for myself, my life and my health, mental or physical.

When I look at myself as I was back then, I see a different human being. She is not who I am today. I don´t think like her and our values are like day and night. Her life is over, at least for the next 24 hours. I can only work on who I am today and my sobriety, but I have to take care of my mental health, just as if I had a chronic physical illness.

Some people do not have a choice. When I worked at the mental hospital there were people who I know had no choice. They had committed unspeakable crimes. According to most pshyciatrist, they were really, really sick. Working with criminally insane people showed me the gulf between having a mental illness but functioning in society and being totally incapacitated. Those people didn´t have any choice. One of them explained to me why she had committed a crime: "I started making some soup, but at the precise minute, the cat miawed. That´s how I understood I had to go down to the shop and buy box of matches."

Otherwise, I find it healthy to have different opinions and to disagree. :wink3

Love and light,