Hammer

Hey, poked backed through and did not see a thread regarding borderline, and of course addictions, etc. in keeping with this site.

Figured I would start one. As near as I call tell I am what they call a "non." That would be a non-bpd, but am dealing with a bpd, or bpd-traits, or whatever one wants to call all this.

stopaddiction

My daughter's gf is BPD. She is also a substance abuser. It's a hard disorder to deal with. My daughter is trying to stick with this girl, but it's a hard road. Her gf pushes her away and then wants her back. There's alot more to it, and it's hard. I hope the best for u.

Threshold

Hammer, do you mean you are dealing with some of those traits in yourself, or in your partner?

I am a recovering alcoholic/addict with BPD traits. A long history of mental illness diagnosed and treated. I abused drugs and booze to self medicate, meaning I used them to address the anxiety, sleeplessness and relationship issues, but not to party or get high. In fact I pretty much always used alone.

My BPD traits, as is usual, are more visible and pronounced in SO relationships, than in other areas of my life. I am NOT pointing fingers, but, as is the case in many relationships with addicts, the partner IS part of the dynamic.

My ex played along with and even used my BPD traits in the relationship. He chose someone like me for a reason, due to traits in himself. He wanted someone he could "save" and he used my fears to manipulate me, even as he said the same of me. My point is not to blame him, but to suggest that people in relationships with BPDs might want to get into a program or therapy themselves and take a look at some things, or they are liable to repeat the pattern, and or exacerbate the situation with their BPD partner.

My ex was all about ME going to therapy and recovery and changing how I related, but when he started therapy and a few things about himself surfaced that made him uncomfortable, he shot down all promises for marital therapy and told me to hit the road.

Relationships consist of two people, and their dynamic. Sometimes the BPD, or a partner with mental illness or addiction gets the finger pointed at them exclusively. I don't think it's entirely coincidental that it wasn't until I was in recovery that my ex actually ended things. He wasn't ready to address any of the other issues in the relationship.

Hammer

Good question. That was confusing.

I guess what they call a Non for me, and an undiag. BP or BP-traits for her. Not that I am trying to label any of it as one thing or another, just much shorter-hand than saying, Alcoholic+Addict+Self-Injury+Eating-Disordered, etc., etc. all in one package. We have been together about 12 years, so I know pretty much the whole deal.


Sure. Exact how I follow all of Mrs. Hammer's "addiction" matters are. Self-Medication. Seemed to work pretty well in that regard. Tends to match the hard-science end of the field, as well.

btw, super job on acknowledging and getting help.

Sure. That was why she came looking for me. Have some real strong Co-dep. on my side.

Suppose that is part of the problem. Headed real deep into Al-Anon when she went into re-hab a little over three months ago.

She has been back a little over 100 days, and I will not wander into crazy-land anymore. After she then targeted our daughter, I got our daughter in Ala-Teen (school therapist recommended, it has been GREAT for her), Mrs. Hammer freaked out but has backed off.

Now has been having the standard melt-down rage routines every couple weeks or so, and all the rest of the routines.

Had done real T some years ago myself, (PTSD type, post-Army and childhood stuff). Meeting my T was our first date . . . suppose that should have been a clue, huh? At any rate, I am a pretty big fan of competent T, and love the results of a good program.

Mrs. Hammer has an MS in Social Work, and been in and out of T since 11 years old. So she knows the game a little too well. Lately, we have shopped some martial therapy, but anyone with competence in BPD or DBT is shot down by her. I figure I could use the help with just the communication that teaches.

And any of the rest of T's that get a whiff of what is coming in the door say, "Sorry, can't help you -- go try So-and-so." If they referral is competent, she will not have anything to do with them.

Sorry on yours. But who knows, one door closes, another opens.

In our case, they only hit the immediate addiction stuff in re-hab -- eating disorder at that moment. As near as I can tell, she really (really, really, really) does not the BPD label and will crash the family, us, and the kids to avoid it.

When re-hab took her coping mechanism away -- the eating disorder -- they did not really put anything in its place. The re-hab folks tried to tell her to work the relationship issues. (typically #1 on the list of BPD problems). Not seeing much of that.

JJamie

Why do boarderlines lie constantly, manipulate and just 'two-face' people the way they do ?


Example: (bad lie goes here) can I borrow some money cause I need it for (bad lie goes here) and by the way another far away family member is real sick again and my cousin commited suicide...

I hang around recovery alot and I learned to avoid boaderlines at all costs because they realy trigger my anger management problems.

I already asked google my questions and I only get lists of symptoms.

JJamie

My oldest half sister has borderline now that I think about it, our relationship has been over for many years due to the 'two face' behavoirs. I always thought she did that stuff to me cause she thought our dad loved my mom more ect... mabey that is just it ?

Threshold

BPD is, in many ways, like active addiction in that BPD behaviors are used, often unconsciously to protect the person from their worst fears. Like substance abusers, they will do whatever it takes to get what they need, some twisted image of security they've created for themselves.

It's a mental illness, an obsession/compulsion. Often the lies and other manipultive behavior is not recognized as such by the BPD. EIther they justify it somehow, or they are not even aware they are doing it or they truly think it's reality. They may borrow money because they truly feel they need it, even though what they consider a need may seem totally frivolous or ridiculous to someone else, for the BPD, they somehow think it will bring them the ever longed for security.

The paranoid mind of a BPD can run with the smallest whiff of a problem and blow it all out of proportion. Someone's bad day can, in their minds, turn into a suicidal crisis...and they suddenly need to jump on a bus, bring the person flowers, or do something to immerse themselves in so called "relief" because the very thought of anyone's bad day sends THEM into a panic, or even a suicidal episode.

BPD is all kinds of crazy and it's NO fun from the inside either. I reality check often because it's one of the best ways for me to catch myself before I go to the bad place. But there are challenges in life that trigger the worst in me, and make it darn near impossible for me to get a grip on reality.

I don't blame anyone for running from relationships with BPD's.

I don't know about your half sister JJamie or where her BPD may have stemmed from, but I doubt that it's "just" dad loving mom more. Often BPD's have a biological vulnerability but it's nearly always coupled with some abuse and trauma in childhood, including neglect. I grew up in one of the "model" families in our parish. Straight A students, no behavior issues, great athletes, etc etc. but the neglect and trauma that I experienced horrified even my therapists. My eldest sister didn't even realize a lot of the crap that went on.

I grew up feeling an intense lack of security, knowing I was not wanted and feeling I constantly had to earn even my right to exist, be fed and housed. Not having any basic sense of security or faith that you have a place in the world leads to a sort of internalized mistrust and panic that can be very very difficult to overcome.

JJamie

My mom was my dads second wife, all his first wifes kids resented my mom and kinda me also.

Does that mistrust abandonment thing lead to "screw them over before they screw me syndrome" if I had to name it something.

Threshold

I don't know your half sister nor am I a trained psychologist so I have no idea is she has BPD or just a bad attitude fueled by resentment. It's your right to call her and her behavior whatever you want.

I was speaking of my experience with the set of thought patterns and behavior patterns that are known as BPD.

Hammer

There is a saying -- "feelings = facts." Not for you or I, but for someone who is having Emotional Dysregulation (more polite term for the condition), that is how things may seem.

Not that they do not actually know the full truth, but once the stories get started . . .

We have had so much of it since Mrs. Hammer got back from rehab, we started calling it 100 Lies in 100 Days. Sort of a joke of the 90 meetings in 90 days they are supposed to do.

Hammer

Thank you so much for the insights.

From the outside it sometimes seems like someone flips a switch and a different persona is there. Had a friend suggest it is more like an extreme (very extreme) and sudden shift of mood.

I recall cutting used to give Mrs. Hammer very quick relief. When she explained that to me, it really made sense.

Would be SORELY tempted to now, if not for the kids.

That is what I follow of the common presently accepted view of "the cause."

Biological + Abandonment/Abuse trigger(s).

Hammer

You can probably get some more and deeper understanding over at: Borderline Personality Disorder - Support group for families and relationship partners They have all sorts of helpful information files and a forum just for family members, like you.

Threshold

Hammer,

Again I can only speak from my own experience enlightened by reading I've done and therapy, but I will offer what I have.

Flipped a switch. I can FEEL that happen in my brain, my term for it is "the worm turns" I mean, I can FEEL something in my brain actually twist, and then all bets are off. Insanity sets in and I go to the bad place.

Also, the same sorts of abuse/trauma/neglect that seem to trigger BPD in people disposed to it are connected with disociative disorder...which can either be someone zoning out, or having multiple personalities. I have a number of different personalities, not to the degree of them having different genders, names, etc...but it's clear to myself and others who know me well that I have several different personas/people in side of me.

When life is manageable, I am relatively integrated. I can apply the various personas appropriately and they can even be an asset. But when certain types of stress and panic set in...I tend to "strobe" through personas. It's unsettling and terrifying. I literally don't know who I am from minute to minute and I need to find a way to ground myself, because it's like being in a tornado of myself and I just have to stop the spinning.

Cutting was one way of grounding myself. Bang, it brought me very quickly to an undeniable persona and condition. It was a huge relief. There were times even that wasn't enough, and in spite of compulsive cutting numerous times a day I was still spinning out of control. I added booze and pills in an attempt to self medicate, hoping it would keep me out of the hospital. sigh.

Clearly you are well versed on the subject of BPD, and connected to resources. I worry as to how having a BPD mother affects the kids. Mine are grown now, and though I have many BPD traits, I am not full on. I've discussed this with my children and they say they didn't notice me doing many of the things my ex cited as reasons to divorce me, but I wonder if it affected them in silent and incidious ways that even they aren't aware of.

I have been in therapy, treatment, etc most of their lives, so it has never been a situation of me being in denial or my mental illness being attributed to them or foisted on them. Unfortunately many BPDs blame everyone around them for their mental state. I hope I avoided doing serious damage to my children. Your children are lucky to have a father who is informed, tuned in and supportive.

I think you've started a great thread here.

Hammer

And again, thank you, thank you, so much.

Personal question? Did your therapy include DBT? Just asking because that seems to be generally recommended path -- at least now -- and Mrs. Hammer is pretty well set against it . . . I guess for obvious reasons.

There is someone local who has top creds for that, and I was thinking of signing us (or me at least to start) so I can get the verbal/validation skills it teaches. I did a little bit of it last weekend -- Mrs. Hammer was having a meltdown over grocery shopping. Highly-ordered food and grocery shopping is part of her Eating Disorder rehab, but she is becoming a household "food nazi" with the kids, and my daughter and I want to get to go grocery shopping once a week, with a list is fine, but so we can have some self-direction, as well.

At any rate, Mrs. Hammer was sobbing at the table, and I started a little of the "I understand you feel ______ ," that they teach over at bpdfamily.com.

She looked up tears rolling down her cheeks and started saying . . . "you are being so kind, now . . . " Almost made me cry, too, but it all requires a bit of detachment. I feel guilty, like I am manipulating her or something.

Yeah. Again, thanks for telling me this. It so matches what we see, as well.

Mrs. Hammer started what we call "voices," on my daughter when talking about Alateen with her, this weekend, also. Mrs. REALLY does not want our daughter to be able to go to Alateen.

She has a few different personas we know of -- this one was one I call Lilting Girl due the voice affect. My daughter now calls it Lilliteen Girl, and now knows to run when it starts.

We also have "Possessed," and "Ranting ******." But so far those are only directed towards me. But in front of the kids, so that is Way Not OK.

Completely understand. Mrs. Hammer started T at 11 y.o. and was on several meds. Alcohol was her preference, and she was pretty much a drunk on entering college. Decent private college that told while she was smart and could do the work drunk, they would not graduate her drunk and "forced" her into AA. That took about a year to settle in (sleeping with first her female sponsor who then relapsed) but she got serious about AA, and was doing well.

But by then cutting was the choice Self-Medication, when we met. Like I say she explained it to me, and it did work and made sense. However after a 4 day business trip, I came home and she had dyed her hair bright pink, cut up her arms, and was painting on the walls with blood.

I have since learned to never be gone more than three days/two nights.

With the blood on the walls -- I freaked out and made her go to my T. Again, like AA, that worked and she got the SI under control, and she even did studies on SI as part of her grad school work.

But like the undergrad college, all I had really done was take away her coping method (alcohol then, SI with me) and no real "fix" for the underlying Emotional Dysregulation -- Amygdala dysfunction -- was ever given or available to her.

So next comes an Eating Disorder. After a few years her AA sponsor dropped the bomb on that (through me, longer story) and now that coping mechanism has been taken away, as well. And again, with no real fix for the Brain Hardware problems.

Yeah. Kids are #1 for me. They come to me now to ask "Why Does Momma ____?" I am switching projects (engineer) so I can be home everyday to deal with that. The lies were/are confusing to them, and why our 10 y.o. daughter is in Alateen. Alateen has been GREAT for her. Will do another post on just kids, etc., if you would like. But yes, you can still help your (now) adult kids deal with any old crazy stuff. There is a section on bpdfamily that deals with that exactly.

[btw, for anyone tracking along sometime later on this thread . . . Start with getting the book "How to Stop Walking on Eggshells" by Randi Kreger. GREAT BOOK, Randi knows this stuff, lived it, and helps run that site.]


Completely understand. When we met, Mrs. Hammer cautioned me that she would likely be in and out of T most of her life. Ok. Not a big deal. I need glasses. She would need T. We met at my T's office for our first date. Aint nobody perfect.

But after the Eating Disorder set in, she was dead-set against T, until her sponsor ordered her to Re-Hab. For my part I just go with All Things Work Together for Good for Those Who Love God (God = Good for me). So I work on that part for me, and try to do Trust and Obey.

Mkay. You have me crying now. (dammit). My daughter calls me "Emotionally ********." She wrote a song -- goes "Emotionally ********, that's my dad, cries when he's happy, laughs when he's sad . . . "

Thank you so much.

Threshold

Your wife becoming a food Nazi with the kids makes TOTAL sense (um, well you know what I mean) because ED is a crazy intense battle about control. She gives in to her own food demons, meaning she complies with treatment, and transfers it over to controlling the eating of others. It's hugely common for ED people to cook for others, plan meals for others and become obsessed with others eating, hypercritical or stuffing their friends and families to a bizarre degree.

I did not do DBT. Found out about it as the marriage was singing it's swan song. My ex said he'd hang in if I did the therapy, but our insurance wouldn't pay, it was very expensive and only available in the next city.

I do know people who have done it who said it was a huge help.

When I saw that my ex had purchased the "Walking on Eggshells" book, I had mixed reaction, rage, shame, fear. I know he did not buy it hoping to understand or help me. He bought it (yes, I KNOW this comes off as pure paranoia) so he could justify his leaving by branding me BPD and incurable and impossible. I mean, I understand that he did what he had to do for himself and to secure his future happiness, but it hurt. And I did wonder, having someone who I'd considered my best friend for decades, if maybe he was right and I WAS a hopeless, incureable, impossible BPD. It's a scary diagnosis.

It's also frustrating to think you're being convicted on trumped up charges, but again, I realize that he needed to justify things with his own conscious. My therapists over the years, family members who are therapists, a sister who is a dr and my own psychiatrist have said that I am NOT BPD, but yes I have some of the behaviors. I am taking their word over that of my ex. They have no ulterior motives or need to be free of me.

I wouldn't call what you did with your wife manipulating. I mean, people interact. We learn what works and doesn't work. We learn people's hot buttons, and happy places. It's not all manipulation. When it gets dishonest, and is working against the other person's best interest to fuel our own, then I think we can call it manipulation. You weren't hurting your wife, you were being realistic, and it seems it ended in a win/win.

I have different personas, but they are not all crazy. I hope that among your wife's personas there are also some that are healthy and purposeful, and that you might encourage those to show themselves more often.

I am again in a position of having no insurance and not able to afford therapy. I get my scripts renewed and take my meds as prescribed and manage my issues using the tools I've learned over the years.

From your description your wife is fighting the diagnosis, treatment, etc...fear I am guessing. It can feel like our only defense against a big bad world...we feel we can't get what we need through legit means so we find ways of holding people hostage and scaring them into taking care of us...or charming them if we are capable of it.

I don't know what it might take, or if your wife is even capable of accepting that, like her drinking, this mode of behavior does NOT work for her and there actually are other ways of getting what she needs.

I think for any therapy to truly be effective long term she must be able to accept that. And that is scary. I think my experience in acceptance and healing in addiction recovery has opened me to being more hopeful that I can address other issues in my life. Success in one area allows me to try new ways of thinking and behaving in other areas.

Her behavior is extremely worrisome and I again am SO glad for the sake of your children that they have you there to navigate the family through this. I think the worst damage in my child hood came not just from the crazy my mother was capable of, but the fact that no one stood up, said her behavior was wrong (as opposed to acting like she was normal and I was the problem), or did anything to protect and support me.

It would have made a TON of difference had someone been there making sure I got what I needed and explaining that my mother was ill, it was not my fault and there was a safe place and safe person to go to.

pattyG

Thank you Hammer for pointing me here. I am dealing with my axgf who I believe is ubpd. She is very much a black/white paranoid type of person. I know she suffered a lot of abuse as a child. She has split me black for a long time. In my codie frenzy I have repeatedly tried to prove I'm not what her head tells her I am. I have 4 small children, she loves them intensely, but it seems as the get older, ie 5yo, she starts splitting black too. (Ie calling my d5 a liar, lazy) I am wondering if her attachment to my kids is because she sees them as innocent, unable to abandon her?

JJamie

The 12 step recovery scene must be absolute torture for those with BPD and the abandonment issue.

I know its messing with me and Im only accused of bipolar.


I had a little anology I made up to describe friend making in recovery, I said its "Building sand castles on the beach at low tide" cause recovery friendships mostly get washed away by relaps or people moving on from sober living and all that in a rather short time.


I hope therapists are on to this.

oocleanchickoo

subbing! I also have BPD finally with a correct diagnoisis. My big problem I am paranoid all the time.

Threshold

Welcom ooclean!

Substance abuse is so very common among BPDs that I think this thread will be a great resource for many.

Jjamie, You make a great point. I think that a lot of BPDs, because of their black and white thinking, latch onto someone or some idea in recovery and if or when that turns out to not be what they expected...they go into a rage and throw it all away.

I know I had my heart set on a certain experience of recovery and when it proved otherwise I had a very difficult time reintegrating, I was SO reactive.

I've been in recovery for 4 years but only clean for one, and this issue has been a big part of it. I believe I have actually done better after I stopped attending meetings because the interpersonal relationships and drama wreaked havoc on me. On SR there is enough "distance" that I don't get attached to particular people. There is a sort of solid core base that I can tune into and if individuals come and go it's not the end of the world for me.

Hammer

She seems better about it this week. We will see tomorrow.

Mrs. Hammer seemed actually surprised that our daughter did not really want to eat exactly what Mrs. Hammer thought was exactly what she wanted. (woudda thought? ). So this week, Mrs. seems calmer with it, made a list for us. Will see how it goes tomorrow. The grocery shopping is sort of planned (not intentionally) back-to-back with the Ala-Teen meeting our daughter does. Mrs. is both ashamed and angry that our daughter NEEDS Ala-Teen. So that is doubly painful for her. I do feel both bad and sorry for Mrs. in that regard.

I wonder if ours is there, as well.

It is sort of a reverse blessing that we do not have insurance. Gives us the option of buying the product(s) and methods chosen.

I (sort of) understand the whole process is 6 months or more. So I guess at $120 X 4 weeks X 6 months = $3000? or so? Guess it is cheaper to keep-her if this would help us get along. Adding up my time-off-work + rehab + therapy for her with the Eating Disorder and after is well over $20,000 so far, so that adder is a bargain.

Thank you for that insight. I probably caused the same in Mrs. Hammer.

Gotta tell you something. Brace a little. He should NOT (or not have) been taking actions to HELP you. Recovery for a NON is supposed to be about the NON. Not messing, helping, controlling or anything else regarding the BPD.

As far as "Understanding," maybe so. I do not know of anyone who is a NON and did not come to some better understanding from that book. It is like a HUGE eye opening "YES! That is exactly what I have been living through!" for most of us.

Please maybe consider this . . .

dunno him at all, and not trying to pretend to . . . but Walking on Eggshells is the not the go-to for anyone who is trying to excuse a Dump. It is more like stuff like this . . . .

===========

[VERY DARK HUMOR WARNING]

******* Personality Disorder - Uncyclopedia, the content-free encyclopedia

https://encyclopediadramatica.se/Bor...ality_disorder

There is plenty more like that out there, and even sites that preach and teach predatory guys to target and use BPD girls.

============

ABSOLUTELY. Now you are back down to the Real Earth part of this.

But when we dig in a little deeper, as this thread progresses . . . I do not really think that Hopeless, Incurable, Impossible has to be the case. As you probably know -- It has a bad name -- the "Borderline" of the title is supposed to the borderline of neurosis and psychosis. Grim title, there. And totally NOT Accurate. The new DSM V (due out in May, 2013) is now calling a part of it Emotional Dysregulation. That is a much better, kinder, and more accurate title.

You may not know yet that it is sort of a open secret in the industry to NOT give the BPD diagnosis even if it practically written on the patient's forehead?

Not saying that is your case, at all, but that is the ethic.

This is a combination of sort of twisted ethics that given a BPD diagnosis the patient would be so distraught it would a determent to treatment. It is called the disease that is defined by denial . . . and in a Medicine as Business US model there is the money. Many insurance plans will not cover the treatment, as it is Axis II, Long Term, and what is considered a Personality Disorder.

But I have to tell you, I do not see it as ANY of that. We just have a limited understanding of the Brain Function in this regard at this point, but we can dig much deeper into that as this thread progresses, as well.

Thank you. That is very kind. I guess I wander into a fog of Do No Harm, but still fear both Crimes of Omission and Commission.

Thank you. I thought about that all day. Personas do not ALL have to be bad, do they? Thank you so much.

Understood. You sound like you are doing better than many. Many of the T's I have spoken to recommend groups. Have you looked at that?

I am tempted to let/encourage her to read this thread when it is done. But have no idea. Maybe refer her sponsor to it. Dunno.

You are so helpful to So Many in saying this. Thank you.

Agreed. The kids have already made me agree to "Take Them" if we were to somehow break up. And it is not due to lack of love or anything negative.

They just understand from their own experience that sometimes Momma has bad days. Real Bad.

But we are not going there, yet. Maybe never. One day at a time.

Understood and completely agree. Hurt people hurt people. Some of that may have likely been what may have triggered your Genetics into manifesting the condition. Same with Mrs. Hammer in that regard.