My Depression

[Chance]

Depression isn’t easy to deal with I can almost guarantee you that. I have been clean for well about 20 months now and during most of my time being clean I was on medication for depression and I had to be on it because during the time I was taking a treatment for Hep C which now has been cleared up and still today my test come back normal which is wonderful. This treatment was vicious to say the least.

I quit taking my Anti-D’s about 2 weeks ago or so not sure but I can sure feel the difference. Here lately I have been falling deeper and deeper into a depression that is so hard for me to live with. I have been isolating from the real world and continue to come to blogs, sites, etc to express myself. Afraid of facing the life that is more real and more physical interaction maybe that is what it is not sure though.

I am in a 12 Step program and I seem to struggle with this issue all the time when I am clean. The program teaches us to live life on life’s terms without the use of drugs. Well maybe I have a very shallow mind but to me and this is my own opinion that Anti-D’s alter your mind and they do. I struggle with the issue of my clean time when I do take them and yet I feel as if I do need them to live a life that isn’t so miserable.

Not sure if anyone can really relate to this or not but it is so hard for me to keep taking them and yet I feel as if I will end up a man that is so hateful and spiteful without them. I don’t want to be that man and yet I can see that I am that man today. One thing though is that now without them I am able to cry, which if you are a man you have been taught or at least I was that men don’t cry. But for me today it feels good to be able to cry.

I am feeling all of these emotions and stuff and it is so hard to deal with them being sober n clean. But I have been doing it. I haven’t been doing my meetings like I probably should be either. I am planing on going to a meeting today, I really need to see some peoples faces instead of sitting here looking at the walls that surround me from day in and day out. I don’t get out in the public much very fearful that is for sure. Well anyways I guess that this is just my thoughts and I will try to keep this going to keep track of my mental state. Thanks for allowing me to share.

[historyteach]

(((Vic)))

There has been a long controversy about medications and "clean" time in the fellowships. So, I went to the source itself. Read for yourself, Vic:

Medications and Recovery

D.R.A. members often go to Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous meetings for additional support and fellowship. Often men and women who have been diagnosed with a dual disorder say that they have received misguided advice about their diagnosis and the use of medication at other Twelve Step meetings. Some have been told that they do not have an emotional or psychiatric illness, and that they are experiencing merely self-pity or some other character defect "You don't need those pills; they'll cause you more problems" and "If you're taking pills, then you're in relapse and not really sober". Individuals who have followed such advice have experienced relapse: some have been hospitalized; some have returned to alcohol or drug use; some have attempted or even completed suicide. To say the least, it can be very confusing. Though we can not speak for other organizations, their literature makes clear that these types of statements are not the official position of A.A., N.A., or any other Twelve Step recovery groups that we are aware of.

On page 133 of the Big Book of A.A. it says in part:

"Now about health: A body badly burned by alcohol does not often recover overnight nor do twisted thinking and depression vanish in a twinkling. We are convinced that a spiritual mode of living is a most powerful health restorative. We, who have recovered from serious drinking, are miracles of mental health. But we have seen remarkable transformations in our bodies. Hardly one of our crowd now shows any dissipation.

But this does not mean that we disregard human health measures. God has abundantly supplied this world with fine doctors, psychologists, and practitioners of various kinds. Do not hesitated to take your health problems to such persons. Most of them give freely of themselves, that their fellows may enjoy sound minds and bodies. Try to remember that though God has wrought miracles among us, we should never belittle a good doctor or psychiatrist. Their services are often indispensable in treating a newcomer and in following his case afterward."

Reprinted from Alcoholics Anonymous, with permission of A.A. World Services, Inc.


There is also an important piece of A.A. conference approved literature called "The A.A. Member - Medications & Other Drugs" that addresses these issues specifically plus issues of cross addiction. Some D.R.A. members carry copies of this pamphlet with them to help educate others when this issue is brought up. Here are a few excerpts:

"...A.A. members and many of their physicians have described situations in which depressed patients have been told by A.A.s to throw away the pills, only to have depression return with all its difficulties, sometimes resulting in suicide. We have heard, too, from schizophrenics, manic depressives, epileptics, and others requiring medication that well-meaning A.A. friends often discourage them from taking prescribed medication, Unfortunately, by following a layman's advice, the sufferers find that their conditions can return with all their previous intensity..."

"It becomes clear that just as it is wrong to enable or support any alcoholic to become readdicted to any drug, it's equally wrong to deprive any alcoholic of medication which can alleviate or control other disabling physical and/or emotional problems."

Reprinted from The A.A. Member - Medications & Other Drugs, with permission of A.A. World Services, Inc.


Narcotics Anonymous says they have no opinion on the issue of medications that are properly prescribed to control the symptoms of a psychiatric illness. When asked about this issue, N.A. Fellowship Services, states that "The question of prescription medication should be decided between the member, their doctor, and the member's Higher Power. Our pamphlet "In Times Of Illness" and our 10th Tradition, make this abundantly clear. We strongly recommend telling our doctor's about our history so that when prescription medication is absolutely necessary they can prescribe it knowing that we are recovering addicts."

We also must keep in mind that few recovering alcoholics and addicts in these groups are mental health and treatment professionals. Almost all are certainly well-meaning. Many don't fully understand the difference between the usual depressions and anxieties most recovering folks go through in early sobriety and our psychiatric illnesses--nor should they be expected to. Some people may falsely think that antidepressants are "mood elevators" much like the street drugs they may be familiar with. These are understandable misconceptions, but can lead to poor advice even from some of the "old-timers".

It is clear that no one should play the role of doctor but a licensed physician or psychiatrist. Sponsors and other well-meaning Twelfth Steppers should not give medical advice. DRA members who seek sponsors in other 12 Step groups must weigh carefully the potential sponsor's attitude and understanding concerning medications and psychiatric illnesses. We can not expect them to fully understand, but an attitude of acceptance toward the the nature of our dual disorder and the place properly prescribed medications play in our dual recovery is key. Experience has shown us that honesty is the basis for successful sponsorships.

DRA members do need to keep in mind when attending the various Twelve Step groups that the Traditions and Primary Purpose of each particular organization need to be respected. Those guidelines were developed through much hard won experience, that their meetings, purpose, and message, not be diluted with outside issues or controversy. Those programs were not developed to address the problems of dual disorders. They offer neither direction nor guidance for dual recovery. Most of these organizations are single-purpose organizations--one disease, one recovery. Dual recovery does not fall within their primary goals. It is our responsibility to manage our psychiatric illness in a healthy and constructive way and do what is best for our dual recoveries.

People who have a dual illness recognize that it cannot be divided into simple and separate parts. They acknowledge that while they do find support for aspects of their illness from many various 12 Step groups, they also need a group in which they can look at their total illness and recovery needs. Dual Recovery Anonymous was formed specifically to address the needs of individuals who had two no-fault illnesses: an emotional or psychiatric illness and chemical dependency. The DRA program is based on three simple ideas, that are suggested as a foundation for dual recovery.

Today, I will be free of alcohol and other intoxicating drugs.
Today, I will follow a healthy plan to manage my emotional or psychiatric illness.
Today, I will practice the Twelve Steps to the best of my ability.
DRA recognizes that psychiatric medications are used for the purpose of managing psychiatric symptoms and are not taken for the purpose of achieving a "high". Therefore, the use of psychiatric medications is not considered to be the same as relapse.

Note: Some individuals in dual recovery must take certain medications that can have a potential for abuse or physical dependence. These medications, when properly prescribed and taken precisely as directed, can be an important tool in controlling psychiatric symptoms and may be crucial to an individual's dual recovery and well-being. We use every caution with our medications and understand that at times, there just isn't another option available to us. Our doctors know best. We are rigorously honest with our doctors and treatment professionals in regards to our dual illnesses and our history of chemical dependency. When we take these medications in accordance with our doctors advice and our recovery plans they do not interfere with our sobriety or "clean time." Dual Recovery Anonymous recognizes that psychiatric medications can be an integral part of a recovering persons plan to manage their emotional or psychiatric illness in a healthy and constructive way.

Medications and Recovery

Taking prescribed meds -- as prescribed -- is acceptable and does not interfer with your clean time. Indeed, doing so may just save that clean time, and yourself...

Remember to be good to yourself, Vic. You've cleared the HepC up; now, be sure to take just as good care of the rest of your body, mind and soul... You're worth it!

Shalom!

[nandm]

History Teach posted some great information.

From a personal perspective, I have fought with depression and alcoholism myself. I have heard well meaning people in AA state that all one needs is to work the program of AA to relieve depression, anxiety, etc.... But my experience has been that the program and Steps of AA are a great tool for helping ease guilt, resentment, situational depression, etc... But for depression like I have which is a chemical depression (my body does not produce chemicals in the right amounts to keep my brain out of depression) so I do take anti-depressant medication. I have taken it for nearly 4 out of the nearly 7 years I have been sober.

If you are unsure what type of depression you have then error on the side of caution and listen to your doctor, take the meds as described. Contrary to some people's beliefs anti-depressants are not happy pills, they do not make people feel elated, or high. They simple allow the person to have the right proportion of brain chemicals present to feel "normal."

There are several indicators for me that my depression is chemical.
* when my depression is getting bad, I stop dreaming at night. This may or may not be true for everyone, it is just my experience.
* When I am in a chemical depression it is quite clear to me in my mind that something is quite wrong. For example, when my brain chemicals are not right I will wake up in the morning with the first though running through my mind being "put a gun to your head" but another side of my mind screams "that is insane." This has occurred when everything in my life has been great and I have had every reason and then some to live.
* When I am on the anti-depressants my anxiety is reduced, I sleep better, I dream, I don't have the suicidal thoughts, etc....
* Yes, there are times I am down because someone has hurt my feelings, or I am having a bad day, or any number of things but I can clearly tell the difference between this down (situational depression) and the insanity of chemical depression.

Please understand that not everyone in AA has experienced chemical depression and for someone who has not experienced it to try and understand it is much like getting a normal drinker to understand the alcoholic. It is very difficult. Don't let someone who has not experience with chemical depression convince you that all you need to do is work the Steps better and all will be great. AA has helped me substantially and has been an asset in my life. But it can not fix the chemicals in my brain anymore than it can cure me of diabetes or cancer.

Take care and please don't let some well meaning person with no experience guilt you into doing harm to yourself. Not taking anti-depressants can harm you.

[sugarssweetpea]

Vic,
I am sorry you are feeling so bad. I think there has been some great advice offered above. I understand your feelings about the meds, but I agree with the above posts that you need to take care of yourself. I struggle with depression myself & have since I was about 12. I believe I started using drugs & alcohol to self medicate. Well, we all know the outcome of that. I was on Zoloft for only a month, that is all that was prescribed to me (that was a different situation in a different state). I don't think that was long enough to tell a difference. For me, I am working the steps right now for my eating habits. I have found that I replace one thing for another. I know that certain foods (especially sugar) has some of the same effects in brain chemistry with the serotonin & endorphin levels as drugs & alcohol. I am trying to work on that & free myself from all addiction & raise my levels naturally with healthy eating & exercise before I take anything medically for it. I have also considered medicating for it, until I can raise it naturally. I don't know if this post has made any sense to you or if it confused you more. I'm sorry if it has. I just want you to know that you are not alone & I will pray for you daily to make the decision that is best for you. Best for you to get healthy & happy. To be the person God created you to be.

[historyteach]

Vic???
How ya doing?

Shalom!

[daisygirl1217]

Hi Vic,

I so can relate to your feelings right now...sooo much so its hard to even start it up and tell you so.

I too have taken meds, and at times i felt they where more of the problem than my own addictions and mental sufferings....One time i ran out of my paxil and the next day all i did was cry and cry and i didnt know why!...i do know that meds lift your serotonin levels and if your on a high dose for a long time and then go without you DO get withdrawals.

I have been off all medications for 2 years now and seriously reconsidering do to the face that I just try and try again and still feel myself doing the same as you...looking at 4 walls trying to get the courage to face the world and all its demons......I do try veryhard to stay positive and to get up after ive been kicked down...but im finding the more i do try to open my heart the more i seem to get hurt...now the controversy is...ok i can stay at home, not get involved with anyone keep to myself and be safe..but also lonely and more depressed im sure....or i can keep trying, and remember that i am a good person, and yes ther are a lot out there that will take advantage of that, but all i can do is keep trying...if i dont i know this will lead to numbness, and that my friend is something i never want again in my life.....So know you are not alone, though it sure as hell seems like it dont it?

[barb dwyer]

Thanks guys -

I was on ADHD 'stimulant therapy' for almost ten years.
When I stopped taking that medication - I started drinking.
Big time.
When I quit drinking -
I got prescribed AD's.
So...
(is there a point, Barb?)
*eventually, yes*

So -
I've been taking medication that doesn't meet many people's 'approval' for almost two decades now.
First -
I never experienced 'depression' until I'd been a drunk.
Wow.
It's awful.
Brain chems are brain chems.
The people who try to go all 'pure' program ... dont' HAVE these probs as a rule, and if they DID ... their probss cleared up after a year or so being sober (it happens).

Vic, honey - stick with your doc.
There's not a founder to be found who'd disagree with that.
Were you isolating like this before you went off the AD's?
Something to think about...

[barb dwyer]

ps -

it's been my experience -
it takes a months for the chems to re-arrange.

[stone]

This might sound apocryphal but it's true, the old timer who told me it doesn't BS.

There was someone with severe depression new to AA who followed the advice of another old-timer to 'let go and let god' medication wasnt necessary, he said, if you have faith.

That newcomer stopped taking his meds and committed suicide some time later.

I take Citalopram, it dont get me high AT ALL! It's medication.

[Chance]

Thanks for your replies and yes I understand what you all are saying and this issue has been around for a very long time. I guess I don't know.....

I have been diagnosed with extreme manic depression, possible that Bi-Polar and probably like my nut doctor used to tell me PTSD.

Right now things are not getting any better as far as my life or maybe the way that I am perceiving my life to be. I don't like to talk about it too much because I know that many here suffer from depression and gezzz I don't want to be the cause of others getting more depressed.

I used to find the Internet a safe place for me to come and vent about anything and now.....most of the things that really bother me I don't talk about to anyone. I used to be able to talk to my sister about a lot of things but here lately have seen myself withdrawing from talking to her also.

This last week has been awful. LMAO I have had a flat tire on my truck, LOL a spar in the back of course, but use that as a excuse not to leave the apartment also. I did call someone today in the program to come over with his air-bubble to air it up and we watched the game afterwards. I went out with Chance to go to the store and get air and I will be darn the tire was flat again. Uggghhh....

I am really struggling with this issue as I do every time that I get clean. Like I said this is just something that I need to work on being accepting I guess that this is probably part of my life that I need (the Anti-D's) but a part that I really don't want either.

Some think that maybe this could just be because of the season but I don't really think that is it at all.....

So what does a guy do that is all screwed up in the head! That would be me and see me saying that made me laugh, because I know that I am not all right in my head. So I have been off of the anti-d's now for quite sometime and I can tell you that I am really miserable, discontent, unhappy, and feel lower than a snakes belly. OK enough about this for tonight I will try and check in again sometime. Thanks for listening.

I might just swallow my false pride and start taking those dang cyboltas or however ya spell it again. I had them though they give ya the chitts LMAO

Would someone please hit me in the head

[IceWolf]

I'd recommend finding an a/d pill that doesn't kill your libido, creativity, etc and go with it. Then try to find a Dual Recovery group to go to even if it's small and only once a week. Dual Recovery people don't stare at you as if you have sprouted antlers if you bring up deppresssion or God forbid voices/unwanted music. The mental illness and the alcoholism will feed each other if you're not careful.

IceWolf

[sugarssweetpea]

Vic,

I absolutely love your avatar. I could not have said it better myself!! That is exactly how I ahve been feeling the last 4 days. Don't know why either. Just came on, all of a sudden. Totally out of control. I would like to encourage you to keep posting. I do not think you are going to add to anyone's depression. It always helps me to know that I am not alone in the matter. Then as well, I can take the focus off of myself & pray & think about someone else for a change. I agree with finding a med that is right for you. It might take awhile, but it is definately worth it. I ahve considered one myself for a long time & have not as of yet. Just stubborn I guess. Want to keep trying to do it myself. Want to wait until I shed all of the unnecessary weight & have been eating healthy & exercising for a while. I have only ever been diagnosed with clinical depression, but I am starting to wonder about the bi polar thing. Too many ups & downs. Too much of an emotional rollercoaster. Oops sorry, there I went talking about myself again. Sorry. I hope to hear from you soon Vic. Take care of yourself.

[Chance]

Thanks EVERYONE! and thanks TEACH!

The night that I posted my last post so what is that 3 nights ago? I decided to start taking my Anti-D's again. I have a appointment with my Doctor next month anyways so I will let her know what is going on. I am sure that she won't mind me starting them up again. She is really busy I will probably give her a call today and leave a message for her anyways.

I don't think that it is feasibly possible for me to start feeling OK already unless it is more the mind over matter type of thing but I am feeling some relief already! I am actally feeling pretty content here this morning which is a good thing. Gezzz I was hating the person that I was becoming, and I am sure that others didn't really want to be around my sorry little ..... either

I don't come here a lot but I sure do appreciate the quick responses and the knowledge is unbelievable! It sure helps me to be able to come here and see what you all said and the support which SR has always been good at. Thanks for allowing this Junky the privilege of being here. :ghug

[Cindi R]

{{{Vic}}}
Good for you, buddy!
Hang in there...
I'm still "there", but as they say "my worst day sober is better than my best day when I was using".
It helps to stop and remember how far we've come. But I still have days like that, I also love the avatar. Most days I still feel like that in spite of medication.
But some days are better than others.