is paranoia part of Bi-polar or Borderline PD?

[still_me]

just curious.

[hippyhippy]

Hi,
I can only speak from my own experience, I have BP.
When I was less stable than I am just now, paranoia was a really big part of my life. When I get really down, I get paranoid too. I get fleeting moments of paranoia. My therapist once likened it to OCD, in as much as I fixated on a thought and couldn't let it go. For example, when I was first ill, I was paranoid that people I know were 'watching' me via the internet. No matter how ridiculous I knew that thought to be, I couldn't drop it. I used to post things on forums, then delete them, or write in code. However, I am still very wary and I still sometimes think people watch me....but I have stopped caring!
I think paranoia is part of depression, so really I would imagine it could be part of BP and BPD.

hope this muddled up answer is some help!

Hippy
x

[QU31]

My boyfriend is bipolar and my sister is borderline. He is definitely more paranoid than she is. These two disorders present very similarly though. One of the major differentiators is self-injuring, which is more typical of borderline.

[shutterbug]

QU31...i've never heard or read that about self-injuring being associated with either, or more prevelent in borderline. That's interesting to me.

What i understand the main difference to be between bipolar and borderline is....borderline lends to more narsasistic behavor (caring little about the feelings of others...similar to sociopathic behaviors, but not to the same extreme).

I know for myself, others and from accounts of people i've read about...parania is common with bipolar. My paranoia comes on strong with people whisper around me. If they are not whispering TO me then i assume they are talking about me and that i've most likely done something wrong (hence the need for them to whisper). It happens constantly in newsrooms....so it's a constant thorn in my side that i sometimes just have to put on headphones and listen to music load enough so not to "hear" the low conversations going on around the room.

[QU31]

Self injury is actually one of the hallmarks of borderline pd. I've never thought of those with it as being narcissistic or not caring about other people's feelings. My sister who has it is one of the most generous and caring people I know. It's a pretty complex disease. It kind of seems like all the other disorders rolled into one! Here are the DSM IV criteria:

-Frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment.
-A pattern of unstable and intense interpersonal relationships characterized by alternating between extremes of idealization and devaluation.
-Identity disturbance: markedly and persistently unstable self-image or sense of self.
-Impulsivity in at least two areas that are potentially self-damaging (e.g., spending, promiscuous sex, eating disorders, substance abuse, reckless driving, binge eating). --Recurrent suicidal behavior, gestures, threats, or self-mutilating behavior.
-Affective instability due to a marked reactivity of mood (e.g., intense episodic dysphoria, irritability, or anxiety usually lasting a few hours and only rarely more than a few days).
-Chronic feelings of emptiness.
-Inappropriate, intense anger or difficulty controlling anger (e.g., frequent displays of temper, constant anger, recurrent physical fights).
-Transient, stress-related paranoid ideation or severe dissociative symptoms.

[shutterbug]

there's got to be more to the borderline diagnosis....as i remember much more. The reason i say this is because i remember reading quite a bit about it online and in my mental health books...as it presents much like bipolar disorder (as most of those symptoms you list are same as bipolar and also AD/HD and some others).

i'm going to have to find where i read the narcasistic traits and such...

thanks for the post! As much as i can, I always want to understand all the mental illnesses that present similarly. And i definetly want to know if i'm mixed up and have gotten something wrong! lol

hugs,
Jenna

[historyteach]

Found this and hope it helps:

Borderline personality disorder
Signs and symptoms
Date updated: May 19, 2006
Content provided by MayoClinic.com
Borderline personality disorder affects how people feel about themselves, how they relate to others and how they behave.

People with BPD often have an unstable sense of who they are. That is, their self-image or sense of self often rapidly changes. They typically view themselves as evil or bad, and sometimes they may feel as if they don't exist at all. This unstable self-image can lead to frequent changes in jobs, friendships, goals, values and gender identity.

Relationships are usually in turmoil. People with BPD often experience a love-hate relationship with others. They may idealize someone one moment and then abruptly and dramatically shift to fury and hate over perceived slights or even misunderstandings. This is because people with the disorder have difficulty accepting gray areas - things are either black or white. For instance, in the eyes of a person with BPD, someone is either good or evil. And that same person may be good one day and evil the next.

In addition, people with BPD often engage in impulsive and risky behavior. This behavior often winds up hurting them, whether emotionally, financially or physically. For instance, they may drive recklessly, engage in unsafe sex, take illicit drugs or go on spending or gambling sprees. People with BPD also often engage in suicidal behavior or deliberately injure themselves for emotional relief.

Other signs and symptoms of borderline personality disorder may include:

Strong emotions that wax and wane frequently
Intense but short episodes of anxiety or depression
Inappropriate anger, sometimes escalating into physical confrontations
Difficulty controlling emotions or impulses
Fear of being alone
http://www.revolutionhealth.com/cond...lity-disorder/
http://www.revolutionhealth.com/cond...ution_suggests

I'm really loving this new site I found, revolutionhealth.com. I hope you find the information helpful, too.

Shalom!

[QU31]

It is true that borderline can look like rapid cycling bipolar. Although I've heard some people say it's just a diagnosis doctors give when they have to other explanation, when I look at my sister, she just fits the criteria so perfectly. The fear of abandonment is a big one. For her at least, I think this is why she acts so non-narcissistic. She will do anything for anyone, I think because she is afraid of being abandoned. Another key thing with the disease is that when they are having some kind of episode or upset with something, they are unable to see that life will ever be good again. Like that moment will go on forever. With people who are well-educated on their bipolar, I think they have the ability to say, "I'm in a depressed episode right now."Or, "I'm feeling manic." It is much harder for the borderline to do that. But, like I said, cutting is one of the hallmarks. I read online that that is one of the easiest ways to tell the difference between rapid cycling bipolar. And the unstable relationships. And I mean really unstable. My sister has been in one for 12 years and she's only 24! The other day we were laughing about all the things she has beat him with over the years.

There is a good book, if anyone is interested called I Hate You, Don't Leave Me, that explains more.

Also, we had an online friend on this forum named Jen who had started a borderline journal like yours, Jenna. She was a cutter too. Jen, are you out there? I haven't seen a post. I hope you are safe and have just been away from your computer or are in the hospital! If you are out there, let us know how you are.....

[shutterbug]

well the reason i question it is because i have major abandonment issues...as was abandoned either literally or emotionally by nearly everyone in my life growing up and i self injure daily and constantly with my nails across my skin.

The unstable relationships....hell that's with any mental illness, but most easy to address it is through learning about codependency...which is what makes her do anything for anyone. Most anyone with mental illness in their family line will also have codie issues.

Or a persona could just be a codie and have the severly unstable relationships WITHOUT mental illness being present.

One thing i read yesterday about borderline when i spent a few minutes looking around was that it appears to co-exist with other mental illnesses...like bipolar disorder.

Really, when it gets right down to it....most people like myself who are diagnosed with bipolar or AD/HD or Borderline or any number of very similar diagnosis will have a hard time ever knowing if they are JUST one...or a mixture of two or more mental illnesses as things are catagorized currently.

I'm wondering where i got the narsasistic idea of borderline now....oh yeah...in my day treatment program. One girl said she was borderline and another member of the group asked what it was and both therapists in the room agreed that it's similar to many others like bipolar, but that it has the non-caring feature to it.

I'm still going to have to find that in some printed form...as now i'm obviously questioning it and them.

So thanks for this quiestion and thread!

[shutterbug]

I found this wonderful info about borderline on www.depressionforums.org and wanted to share it.

Questions & Answers
with
Joyce Boaz & Dr. Frank Ochberg

QUOTE
September 2005

Q: Dear Frank, We received an email asking what is Borderline Personality Disorder. Can you give us a short synopsis of this condition.
A: Dear Joyce, Diagnoses, particularly personality disorder diagnoses, tend to pigeon-hole people and diminish their complexity and humanity. Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD) certainly has been used by some mental health professionals to label rather than to explain. Let me do my best to explain what is intended and what can be learned about this complicated condition.

First, borderline was intended, almost half a century ago, to be the boundary between psychosis and neurosis. Some people were observed to have difficulty managing anxiety (neurosis), but they also lost touch with reality (psychosis) when extremely distressed. Unlike persons suffering from schizophrenia or bipolar disorder, they were usually free of prolonged episodes of disordered thinking or of mood fluctuations. But they often had relatives who were diagnosed with these disorders (schizophrenia; bipolar). So some psychiatric researchers, particularly those who focused on biological issues, believed "borderline" was linked genetically to the spectrum of major disorders of thought and mood. Some "borderlines" are also "bipolars," less frequently, "schizophrenic."

Second, borderline, or BPD, appears to be driven by problems of attachment to the mother, beginning in late infancy or early childhood. The very first criterion for giving the diagnosis is "frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment." Therapists who follow Freudian and similar theories look for significant events in the early stages of life, formative events, and they place great weight on such life-shaping experiences. In the case of BPD, these therapists believe that the little child, one and one half years to three years old, was separated, physically or emotionally from the mother, and there were no other sources of reliable comfort available. The child felt abandoned. The emotion was one of extreme fear and it turned into rejection of the mother. With child-reason, full of fantasy, the youngster began a fruitless search for ideal protectors (guardian angels) and became vulnerable to the second criterion of BPD: "a pattern of unstable and intense interpersonal relationships characterized by alternating between extremes of idealization and devaluation." I have been on the receiving end of this pattern, admired beyond reason then reviled with rage. Most therapists understand and tolerate borderline emotion, realizing it is based on child-like reason. Most unfortunately, this condition includes feeling dead inside. Some people with BPD will cut themselves, not because they are suicidal, but because they want to feel something real. Physical pain is, on occasion, preferable to feeling dead. Persons with BPD are confused about who they are and what their life really means.

Because BPD includes such intense emotion, interpersonal relationships are roller-coaster affairs and are very confusing, sometimes infuriating, to the partner. Violent abuse or insensitive rejection follows. Persons with BPD are often victims of trauma.

From the perspective of the therapist, this is a real challenge. Warmth and collegiality are misinterpreted as deep, personal friendship or as sexual signals. It is a mistake for a therapist to encourage anything but a professional relationship when treating a person with BPD. You have to keep boundaries clear with a borderline person.

It just helps to know that our biology and our earliest experiences may make us exquisitely sensitive to rejection from a parent-like person, setting us on a very difficult path of being drawn to such persons, seeking love in all the wrong places, then causing us to turn on the person we were once attracted to --attracted to for reasons that have more to do with our infancy than with current reality.

[shutterbug]

Another post was made by another poster that i felt interesting to me so i thought i'd share it also:

" I think BPD is a bit hard to understand because it seems to me that not a lot of the professionals understand it. It also seems to me a lot of the information out there puts a negative light on BPD...and I don't think this should be spun this way. I think at the core for a lot of people with bpd is the abandoment issue.

I don't have bpd myself but I have read a bit about it and do have issues with abandonment and trust myself. When you are faced with those issues it's hard to believe anyone will be there for you...that someone could love you. So you are constantly in a tug-o-war with yourself wanting to be loved and feeling that no one could ever love you. You would do anything to feel loved, but also at the same time know it will not happen and so will do anything not to be hurt. This complicates a lot of relationships and makes it hard to be consistant inside of one.

And I do think someone with bpd would struggle even more with an abusive relationship. Are either of you seeing anyone? It sounds like you want to make this relationship work and that requires working out the struggles in yourself as well as with each other.

Anyways this is just how I have experienced things.

[QU31]

I was thinking about BPD last night and thought of a few more things. There are some mental health professionals out there that don't even think it exists.

I think that we as a society need to change the way we look at mental health. I think in the future, as we get more technologically advanced, these DSM diagnoses won't matter as much. I think you will be able to go in and get your brain scanned and then the doctor will be able to prescribe medication based on the brain scan and there won't be a label attached. There is also a movement to reorganize the DSM IV around the "big five" personality traits.

Personally, I think that a lot of the disorders can be looked at as personality traits. Take ADHD for example. Like all of the other "disorders," there is somewhat of a stigma attached to it. While there are definitely cons to having it (which are largely determined by what is acceptable in society), there are also pros. When I look at some of the people that have it, they are some of the most successful people I know, if they are in the right field, which is usually a creative field. Jenna, I have never seen any of your work, but I can tell from the way you talk about it that you are really successful at what you do! Without your disorders, you would probably be crunching numbers somewhere and what fun would that be? (for you at least) For me, I have an anxiety disorder, but it has served me really well in certain situations, like sucess in school. Now that it's tamed with meds, I'm thankful I have it.

I don't know, maybe I'm being overly optimistic...I know there is a lot of suffering that goes along with these things. I guess I'm just in an optimistic and somewhat philosophical mood!

I know some of you were there back a few months ago when my recovering alcoholic boyfriend was diagnosed with bipolar disorder. I wanted to give an update. The Lamictal is turning out to be a miracle drug! While his personality is definitely toned down, he has actually become a reasonable person...hasn't had a hissy fit since he started taking it. Last night, I watched him be the speaker at an AA meeting--it was his first time. It was great to see the progress he's made. So thanks to all of you for your encouraging works back when I was freaking out! It makes me realize that when I'm feeling upset, and I'm sure that will happen again, "this too shall pass."

[shutterbug]

i did quite well on the Lamictal too. My thinking was SO clear and focused.

Fortunatly AD/HD doesn't have near the stigmas attached that bipolar disorder does...and since presents much the same way and i struggle with AD/HD issues...it's MUCH easier to tell people that is what i have (as an explanation for...not an excuse tho).

I agree....there are advantages to many mental illnesses...tho it is rare for those with it to see it that way. I commend you a great deal!! It took me a long time to see the pros to having a mood disorder and this silly ol' brain! I still curse the sun and moon (and sometimes God) when my deep depressions hit...but still...my mental illnesses make me...me. And i love creating art and continuing to grow with it. It's my main reason for the daily joy in my life (and it serves my constant need for approval well also....the regular feedback from people who enjoy my work keeps me going...and i NEED that!)

I think you are right in that the future holds many changes for diagnosing and the way many of these "diagnosis" are handled and thought of. And yes....much change is needed and much by way of society's thinking.

hugs,
Jenna