Calming the urges

[ClayTheScribe]

So I'm 24 and I've never had sex and only one short-term relationship when I was 16. I'm starting to come to terms with being a virgin and get over the embarrassment as it was one of the big reasons I drank. I understand for a long time in sobriety you should avoid relationships and sex. However now, especially that I just graduated college and have more confidence, I feel the sexual urges and desire for relationships more than ever. I want to get to a place where I don't desire sex and intimacy and a relationship as much so recovery goes smoother for me. Besides masturbating to keep the urges at bay, what else should I do? Or am I screwed until I can establish a long period of sobriety and how long should that be? Should I stop masturbating altogether and be completely celibate?

I posted here because I feel most women can't relate to the seemingly constant sexual urges men my age experience.

Thanks,
Clayton

[ex D-Boy]

hey bro, havent gotten to talk much with ya but welcome to sr and congrats on finishing school and getting sober.

Don't be ashamed about the virginity thing, its not a big deal at all. When you meet the right person they wont judge or look down upon you for that. Being that my DOC was heroin, the drug would completely turn my sex drive to less than zero, Anne Hathaway coulda been at my door and I would have turned her away. Once getting sober it came flooding back in, I felt like I was 13 again. THe program and people 'suggest' no relationships or sex for 1 year because that is a major change in your life. Some people are able to handle relationships or sex during that initial year of sobriety fine. You could be one of them.

If you decide however that you want to continue to wait until after one year of sobriety that is good as well. As for keeping the urges at bay...heh, I would think that stopping jacking off all together would only increase urges. Atleast after you masturbate you go a few hours being content and not thinking about sex so much. I feel like sex would be on my mind 24/7 if I wasnt sexually active or masturbating.

My advice ? Brazzers . com works wonders stay safe bro ~~ Scott

[MycoolFitz]

James Joyce calls masterbation "Honeymoon of the Hand" Celibacy is just self-denial as sex addiction is excess, the trick is to find the middle way. Your young yet, it'll happen for you, then watch out, focus on your sobriety and day to day life, don't get too anxious or uptight and don't give up either. It'll come (no pun intended) in its on sweet time and way. Just be here now, open to the moment, it will find you.

“There is no other place. We’re forever here…There’s only this one place: right here, right now…To be here is freedom from insanity, fear, worry, struggle, striving, the urgent desire to control, and the habitual yearning for security and escape from pain.”—Steve Hagen, Buddhism is Not What You Think

[ClayTheScribe]

Originally Posted by MycoolFitz

James Joyce calls masterbation "Honeymoon of the Hand" Celibacy is just self-denial as sex addiction is excess, the trick is to find the middle way. Your young yet, it'll happen for you, then watch out, focus on your sobriety and day to day life, don't get too anxious or uptight and don't give up either. It'll come (no pun intended) in its on sweet time and way. Just be here now, open to the moment, it will find you.

I've been chasing after being in the moment for a few years now and have only found it for like a second at a time. Very frustrating. I've kind of given up on it. I've read Be Here Now and The Power Of Now and the idea just doesn't click. My depression keeps me in the past, or mostly, in the future. I just can't seem to escape my thought patterns. I know virginity is not a big deal to those who've lost it, but it is to me and I don't want it to be anymore. Drives me crazy sometimes. You can say you understand, but most men lose it before 20. But I think I have bigger challenges and other things to worry about than that, so I just need to focus on those, namely my insecurities that keep me from getting in a relationship or sex. And I've pretty much given up on losing my virginity to happen, which is maybe what I need right now--letting go. They always say love happens when you're not looking. I want to be in a position where I'm not looking, but I can't quiet the storm and the desire. How do I come to terms with it and accept it?

[MycoolFitz]

We'll get you there, if you've found a second in the present you're doing better than many. I'll recommed some other reading for you and practice. I think a little Soto Zen might be in order. I finish my move to my little monk's hut tomorrow and I'll dig through some stuff. Don't give up and don't give in. You're already here, now equipped with everything you'll ever need. You just don't know it yet. Remember, abstinence makes the heart grow fonder. :-)

[TheSunAlsoRises]

I know how you feel I had my V-card till I was 20. Its hard to take from someone who has been there... but don't take it too seriously. It will happen when it should. In the mean time I can recommend doing some research into tantric and expanded orgasm, You will get a lot more out of sex when you do get there, and all the stuff will make your personal time a lot better as well...

[ClayTheScribe]

Originally Posted by TheSunAlsoRises

I know how you feel I had my V-card till I was 20. Its hard to take from someone who has been there... but don't take it too seriously. It will happen when it should. In the mean time I can recommend doing some research into tantric and expanded orgasm, You will get a lot more out of sex when you do get there, and all the stuff will make your personal time a lot better as well...

Wow 20, that's SUCH a long time...please. That's the average age for most people to lose it. If I understand tantric masturbation well enough, I have been trying that, as far as edging, but I can still never last very long because I don't have the patience. That's one of my fears of sex, that after say 10 times I'll still be cumming too soon. Whatever. I'm trying to give up on finding love and sex since it finds you when you're not looking. It's frustrating but I'm trying to monitor my thoughts more to quell the sexual urges. It's hard though as they're so biological and strong sometimes. Thank god I take psych meds to lower my libido some. If you could point me to a good site about tantric masturbation or expanded orgasm, I would appreciate it. Most of the stuff I found was for couples.

[yeahgr8]

Keep working on your recovery and keep jerking off!

My first time was on my mum's sofa in doggie style with the local bike, i finished in no time, came all over her legs which she didn't like too much and she turned round and said do you want to see me again, do you think you'll be better next time lol i can laugh now! Then i told her i was a virgin and she said that she would have booked a hotel room etc if she had known...go figure! I ended up going out with her for a year...go figure again?!

I hope when the time comes that you meet a nice girl, who will totally understand and welcome the fact that you are a virgin and she is special, i'm sure this will be the case unless you are pissed up and you will probably have an experience like mine!

Seriously get the jerking off thing off the table, that is ridiculous and will cause you problems if you try and stem your sexual desires!

[BDP]

dude, I wouldn't worry about it too much. Just continue to improve yourself and get where you want to be and everything will fall into place. I was a virgin until 22 and now 7 years later I'm pretty much a born again virgin and it really doesn't bother me. Would I like to have sex especially since I've had it before, you bet. But it doesn't bother me that I'm not. I just jerk off and keep it moving. I have much bigger things to worry about. Maybe I find this so easy b/c I have never thought much about relationships and never really wanted one. Hell, I'm 29 and still don't want a girlfriend really. I can understand the benefits I guess but I'm not sure if it's really worth all the hassle.

anyway, good luck with everything.

[TheSunAlsoRises]

Hey Clay, sorry I didn't mean to offend you... most of my friends had lost it by the time they were 15 or 16. Edging doesn't work unless you learn to circulate the energy through your body, I don't think I have enough post to insert a link. Which is just as well because I don't have one. I just read a book on the subject called the multi-orgasmic couple.
Anyway man I hope that your sobriety is going well and you won't let the urges affect it. Hang in there man...

[Walter]

I think this man is just looking for companionship and sex like all the rest of us and we shouldn't be trying to convince him that he should just ignore it and keep living in his own head. I wanted to comment on this because it was a primary struggle for me for years and I too hated being a virgin and waiting for it to go away.

If you wanted a better job, would you sit around and read books and try to find inner peace or would you go out and hunt for jobs?

I think this is probably the common case of how men treat women. Are you being real sweet and nice to every woman you meet? Dont. This is a numbers game and you won't win them all. Be yourself, be blunt, tease them, be direct. Most importantly BE CONFIDENT. Women don't care where you're from, or about your SAT scores or how far you can throw the discus. All they want is a man who is comfortable in his own skin and makes her feel safe. Make her laugh without being lame. Who really cares what she thinks about you anyway? In my experience (please correct me if I'm wrong) women are easier to spot than garbage cans and you can always focus on a new one.

This is all practice. Keep striking out with women everywhere and make an idiot out of yourself asking for numbers and TELLING THEM they should come with you on a date. Don't ask. Just tell her she should come out with you. If she says she's busy, you say "Some other time then" and walk away. Find another one. Be a busy man. Be the one to end the phone call. Keep options. Women love a man with options.

After some failures, I think you'll be surprised how quickly you begin succeeding.

You don't have to be alone.

[ClayTheScribe]

Originally Posted by Walter

I think this man is just looking for companionship and sex like all the rest of us and we shouldn't be trying to convince him that he should just ignore it and keep living in his own head. I wanted to comment on this because it was a primary struggle for me for years and I too hated being a virgin and waiting for it to go away.

If you wanted a better job, would you sit around and read books and try to find inner peace or would you go out and hunt for jobs?

I think this is probably the common case of how men treat women. Are you being real sweet and nice to every woman you meet? Dont. This is a numbers game and you won't win them all. Be yourself, be blunt, tease them, be direct.

I'm not afraid to tease them a little bit and I'm always direct (usually too direct and I scare them off), but I'm not willing to be an ******* or be mean because that's not being myself. I know the type of women who like abuse and they have low self-esteem and they're usually immature. I'm not interested in those women. I understand the nice guy finishes last but I know several women who likes guys who are respectful, so I'm not going to entirely stop being nice.

Most importantly BE CONFIDENT.

This has been driven into my head a lot and I understand why it's important. I gained a little more confidence after graduating but the depression struggles with me in my attempt to gain more confidence. I think in my case I'm going to have to fake it till I make it and hope they don't find me out as a fraud along the way.

Women don't care where you're from, or about your SAT scores or how far you can throw the discus. All they want is a man who is comfortable in his own skin and makes her feel safe.

I can make her feel safe, but I'd be lying if I said I was completely comfortable in my own skin. Again, the depression keeps that from being a reality. I guess I'm comfortable enough in my skin that I can fake the rest.

Make her laugh without being lame. Who really cares what she thinks about you anyway? In my experience (please correct me if I'm wrong) women are easier to spot than garbage cans and you can always focus on a new one.

This is all practice. Keep striking out with women everywhere and make an idiot out of yourself asking for numbers and TELLING THEM they should come with you on a date. Don't ask. Just tell her she should come out with you. If she says she's busy, you say "Some other time then" and walk away. Find another one. Be a busy man. Be the one to end the phone call. Keep options. Women love a man with options.

What options are you talking about? Like other things to do, or other women to date?

After some failures, I think you'll be surprised how quickly you begin succeeding.

You don't have to be alone.

[Walter]

Well, other things to do AND other women to date. I guess what I mean is women don't like someone who clings, but rather someone who doesn't need them. I know this isn't a storybook ending you'd want to hear, but I also know what did and didn't work for me. I could wait around being the nicest guy in the world and spilling my guts to every girl who ever cared about me, but that's not what made them get naked and that's what it sounds like you want. I'm trying to help you make some progress with your problem.

You sound like you've heard a lot of this before but I wonder how you're using it out in "the field". I certainly don't mean you need to be an ass or be disrespectful. My current girlfriend loves the fact that I take women seriously and listen to them.

I guess what I'm getting at is all these little actions convey a certain mentality to a woman. After all, women have been trained since they were little girls to read a man and understand what he's thinking and how to lead him on, testing him, making him jump through hoops. You've seen it! They can smell a fake a mile away. What I'm saying is the man who turns the game around on them, here and there, catches their attention. It has to seem effortless but they'll remember you. I've definitely faked confidence, but in time it became habit. Faking won't work in the long run. I don't suffer chronic depression but I have experienced bouts of depression, and you're right. It makes it a lot harder to meet women. Maybe, after hearing all this, you do need to be happy with yourself, or adjust medications, etc before you can really take that step with a woman or modify your approach. I use to spend a lot of time in the woods, climbing mountains and all sorts of solo sh** before I could walk up to a girl in stride..Whatever you do, it is possible to make changes and get more attention from women. I want you to sense hope. Why stay alone?

[Dee74]

I was a lot older than you when I lost my virginity Clayton - it may seem all important now but trust me it isn't...and thats not me being condescending...I'm not denying how you feel, but ultimately I ended up amazed I obsessed for so long over it.

From a recovery standpoint, I wouldn't go looking to do anything about this now...relationships are tricky things for anyone - for someone trying to stay sober, and negotiate unfamiliar sexual plotics, it might be a minefield.

Just keep doing...whatever it is you're doing

And could we please not turn this into a how I lost my virginity thread? LOL


D

[ClayTheScribe]

Originally Posted by Dee74

I was a lot older than you when I lost my virginity Clayton - it may seem all important now but trust me it isn't...and thats not me being condescending...I'm not denying how you feel, but ultimately I ended up amazed I obsessed for so long over it.

From a recovery standpoint, I wouldn't go looking to do anything about this now...relationships are tricky things for anyone - for someone trying to stay sober, and negotiate unfamiliar sexual plotics, it might be a minefield.

Just keep doing...whatever it is you're doing

And could we please not turn this into a how I lost my virginity thread? LOL


D

Someone also made the point that relationships can lift you up and help you in your sobreity, so I dunno. If I don't have a relationship or sex within the next few months, I probably will drink again. This lack of intimacy is one of the reasons I drank so why not fill that void and give me one less reason to abuse?

[Dee74]

If I don't have a relationship or sex within the next few months, I probably will drink again. This lack of intimacy is one of the reasons I drank so why not fill that void and give me one less reason to abuse?

Does it (drinking) really fill the void tho? Didn't for me.

It made it worse really cos I'd think of all the couples out there being together while I was home alone drinking....so I drank more....which made me stay at home more....which kept me from meeting people and forming friendships and relationships that could lead somewhere...and when I did go out, I felt so out of place - I got drunk....

See the theme there?

Maybe I really am too old to remember back into the prehistoric age that was my 20s Clay LOL.

I see this really is a big thing for you and you're busting to do something about it....in the end, you're gonna do what you want to do Clay...

It seems like you have your mind made up...just make sure you know what you want - you speak of love, but this seems mainly about sex....

and please - don't let anything - relationship/sex, or the lack of it - become an excuse for drinking.

Good luck!
D

[ClayTheScribe]

Originally Posted by Dee74

Does it (drinking) really fill the void tho? Didn't for me.

It made it worse really cos I'd think of all the couples out there being together while I was home alone drinking....so I drank more....which made me stay at home more....which kept me from meeting people and forming friendships and relationships that could lead somewhere...and when I did go out, I felt so out of place - I got drunk....

See the theme there?

Maybe I really am too old to remember back into the prehistoric age that was my 20s Clay LOL.

I see this really is a big thing for you and you're busting to do something about it....in the end, you're gonna do what you want to do Clay...

It seems like you have your mind made up...just make sure you know what you want - you speak of love, but this seems mainly about sex....

and please - don't let anything - relationship/sex, or the lack of it - become an excuse for drinking.

Good luck!
D

It appears you misread my post entirely and just skimmed it and then responded. That's alright, I'll explain.

I want to be in a relationship so I have one less reason to drink. Drinking feels a void only for a couple of hours and then misery. But I can see myself losing my willpower to stay away from the sauce if I'm still alone like six months from now, if not earlier. So finding a relationship, and yes, sex, is important to me to help me in my sobreity.

I hope that's clear enough.

[Dee74]

LOL I didn't misread or skim anything Clay - I don't do 'duty' replies.
I did take some things as read, tho, and I cut to the chase.

This is a recovery site. I focused on the drinking because as I said, in my opinion the relationship stuff sorts itself out. Sorry if that seemed like I was disinterested, my apologies.

I'll try again. No harm no foul.

Drinking won't fill the void if you don't find a girlfriend.

Finding a girlfriend to fill the void won't work either - been there done that,
broke a few hearts that should never have been broken.

A relationship should never be a reason not to drink - love should never be squandered like that. People should never be squandered like that.

If you want to fill the void and find a reason not to drink - work on yourself Clay.
Thats the only way to do it.

That way - when you meet 'The One' you won't lose her, or hurt her, becuase you weren't ready for her.

Kinda wrecks your 6 month timetable I know, but these things, like recovery, laugh at timetables.

I sense you think I'm being condescending - I'm not trying to be.
But I am too old for 'tude, dude. (see, very old LOL)

All I can do is share my experiences Clay - if you'd rather not hear what I have to say, just let me know

D

[ClayTheScribe]

Originally Posted by Dee74

LOL I didn't misread or skim anything Clay - I don't do 'duty' replies.
I did take some things as read, tho, and I cut to the chase.

This is a recovery site. I focused on the drinking because as I said, in my opinion the relationship stuff sorts itself out. Sorry if that seemed like I was disinterested, my apologies.

I'll try again. No harm no foul.

Drinking won't fill the void if you don't find a girlfriend.

Finding a girlfriend to fill the void won't work either - been there done that,
broke a few hearts that should never have been broken.

A relationship should never be a reason not to drink - love should never be squandered like that. People should never be squandered like that.

If you want to fill the void and find a reason not to drink - work on yourself Clay.
Thats the only way to do it.

That way - when you meet 'The One' you won't lose her, or hurt her, becuase you weren't ready for her.

Kinda wrecks your 6 month timetable I know, but these things, like recovery, laugh at timetables.

I sense you think I'm being condescending - I'm not trying to be.
But I am too old for 'tude, dude. (see, very old LOL)

All I can do is share my experiences Clay - if you'd rather not hear what I have to say, just let me know

D

Sorry for my previous response. I only had a few hours of sleep last night and hadn't taken my night meds. I was in a bad mood and I took it out on you. I'm sorry. It won't happen again.

I appreciate your advice but I can't promise I'm going to avoid a relationship while working on myself. Maybe this is something I need to learn on my own. I know it's wrong for me to hold hostage a relationship over drinking. I'll try not to do that. I feel I've done a lot of work on myself and I'm ready. If I mess up, hopefully you'll be the first to say "I told you so." I'm just tired of waiting for a relationship and no one's really given me a way to deal with the loneliness, so I seek to end it. And I'm not necessarily trying to find "The One" just SOMEone who I'm compatible with. I've got many more years to find The One.

But with my luck, I probably won't find anyone anyways, so you'll get your wish Dee.

Thanks.

[Dee74]

We all have bad days Clay - no worries - my days not been one I'll remember with great fondness either.

I'd never say I told you so - and I sincerely hope you find the kind of relationship I did.

You're a intelligent passionate considerate young guy - you deserve it....just don't let up on trying to quell those demons...

night Clay
D

[soidog]

I had somewhat similar experiences as you. In high school and college I had few dates and only one girlfriend. I lost my virginity around 23. Since then I have had a number of partners, but have struggled with alcoholism and to a lesser degree depression over the years. I have yet to be married, but now that I am sober - and at the age of 37 - I have finally met the love of my life (after learning a LOT from previous failed relationships) and I am hoping that we will marry within a year or two (she too, has never been married). My point being that eventually, the right one will come to you.

As to your original conundrum, I wonder...what do you think is the reason why you feel driven to drink if you aren't in a relationship? Boredom? Loneliness? Just trying to understand more bro. Write back.

[ClayTheScribe]

Originally Posted by soidog

I had somewhat similar experiences as you. In high school and college I had few dates and only one girlfriend. I lost my virginity around 23. Since then I have had a number of partners, but have struggled with alcoholism and to a lesser degree depression over the years. I have yet to be married, but now that I am sober - and at the age of 37 - I have finally met the love of my life (after learning a LOT from previous failed relationships) and I am hoping that we will marry within a year or two (she too, has never been married). My point being that eventually, the right one will come to you.

As to your original conundrum, I wonder...what do you think is the reason why you feel driven to drink if you aren't in a relationship? Boredom? Loneliness? Just trying to understand more bro. Write back.

One, my pity party was an excuse to drink. Two, I had a lot of anxiety about it, mainly about being insecure about approaching women and shooting myself down before I even let them have a chance (I still have these anxieties, but have felt lighter about them since I stopped drinking) and drinking helped quell my anxieties in general, even if for a few hours. Three, I was trying to drown out the feeling of loneliness until alcohol became my mistress.

I also drank because of boredom, and most of all, 'cause I wanted to have fun or celebrate. I've been 29 days since my first relapse and my alcohol cravings have been way less than before I relapsed. I can't see myself drinking just because I'm alone again because I know it only makes me feel worse. I think it's just that because I was drinking to drown the anxieties, now that I'm sober I have to deal more with those issues and they've hit me kinda strong at times. But I've been hanging around friends a lot more and that makes some of the loneliness less of a burden. I suppose too I feel some sort of rush to have sex because men are kind of brought up that you're weaker the longer you have your virginity. I try not to subscribe to that, but I do feel in the back of my head there's some societal standard I have to meet, not that I should give a $hit what society thinks. I just get physically impatient sometime for affection and sex, but I know I want it to be with someone I trust. Doesn't have to be necessarily with my true love (it's going to take me a looong time before I find someone perfectly compatible with me) but someone I trust enough as a sexual partner. I suppose there's no rush necessary, the hormones sometimes just make it feel like an itch I have to scratch urgently. I'm still going to look and try to get enough courage to approach women once I get new clothes and the courage to, but I'm also going to work more on gaining and exuding confidence, even if some of it is fake, until some lucky sap falls for me.

[soidog]

Well, its good to hear that alcohol abuse seems off the table. The first and hardest step is just stopping and most people don't even get to that point. I actually don't think that social anxieties about women for us guys is abnormal at all. Its just a matter of degree, and you may have more anxieties than most. Its true too that the older you get, you feel more pressured to have sex just because of social expectations. I don't know what to say about that other than I can sympathize because I've been there.

In anycase, I don't think you should repress sexual urges. Masturbation IS healthy after all, nothing wrong with it at all. And definitely keep off the booze. Have you tried other, more positive diversions than drinking like working out, running, a hobby? As I mentioned earlier, I'm still single but am close to being engaged. Still, I have a lot of free time and in my free time I run, work out, and also read a lot, as well as play computer games. It keeps me very busy, in addition to work, and of course I no longer waste away my time being drunk.

Perhaps you need to find new approaches for women? Have you tried online dating yet? Its really THE best way nowadays for single people to meet others, and its so common nowadays I feel its almost the norm.

I obviously don't know you, but looking at your avatar I can tell you're a pretty good looking guy, and you obviously have a head on your shoulders. Feel free to PM me too if you want to talk further. Hope to hear back.

[trucker]

Originally Posted by ClayTheScribe

It appears you misread my post entirely and just skimmed it and then responded. That's alright, I'll explain.

I want to be in a relationship so I have one less reason to drink. Drinking feels a void only for a couple of hours and then misery. But I can see myself losing my willpower to stay away from the sauce if I'm still alone like six months from now, if not earlier. So finding a relationship, and yes, sex, is important to me to help me in my sobreity.

I hope that's clear enough.

my friend let me save your a bit of time and heartache here...

its my experience of years of trying to find the ultimate thing to keep me away from the booze.

i tried relationships......with some stunning women that made me feel great but i got pissed.

i tried sex to the point of addiction........got pissed.

i tried women outside marriage....got pissed.

i moved to different countrys around europe..........got pissed...cheaper than uk but still got pissed.

i got my hands on a pretty large amount of money......and got pissed.

i got a big house........fast car......got pissed.

only aa and the 12 steps kept me sober...........often i see guys working through that little list of mine............and reach the same result...

god filled that hole in me.....jeez if was one of the above i would have stuck with it.....period.

there aint NO back doors..........alcoholism will corner the alcoholic everytime in the end...

but there is hope........establish your recovery into something that doesnt need anything to fix it or put a price on it.

good luck.

[ClayTheScribe]

Originally Posted by soidog

Well, its good to hear that alcohol abuse seems off the table. The first and hardest step is just stopping and most people don't even get to that point. I actually don't think that social anxieties about women for us guys is abnormal at all. Its just a matter of degree, and you may have more anxieties than most. Its true too that the older you get, you feel more pressured to have sex just because of social expectations. I don't know what to say about that other than I can sympathize because I've been there.

In anycase, I don't think you should repress sexual urges. Masturbation IS healthy after all, nothing wrong with it at all. And definitely keep off the booze. Have you tried other, more positive diversions than drinking like working out, running, a hobby?

I work out almost every day on the recumbent bicycle for 30-60 minutes. That makes me feel better. I can't go running because I'm still too heavy (270 lbs, 6'0) and it kills my joints. And I get easily winded. And I hate running. As soon as I get a steady job with real money, I'm going to buy a new bike and start riding that around, but I don't know when that'll be. I write as a hobby--it is my passion--though not as much as I should and I'm reading more for pleasure now that I'm out of college, though I don't know if that constitutes a hobby. Besides that I watch TV shows online and lots of movies on DVD. I have a cent to my name so I can't really afford to do anything else right now. Hobbies only distract me from being lonely for so long, but it's all I've got.

As I mentioned earlier, I'm still single but am close to being engaged. Still, I have a lot of free time and in my free time I run, work out, and also read a lot, as well as play computer games. It keeps me very busy, in addition to work, and of course I no longer waste away my time being drunk.

Perhaps you need to find new approaches for women? Have you tried online dating yet? Its really THE best way nowadays for single people to meet others, and its so common nowadays I feel its almost the norm.

Yes am on OKCupid and PlentyOfFish right now. Have messaged many people, have got very few responses, only one indicated she was interested and she's supposedly out of town. It comes down to I'm not trim and attractive enough for most women/men, or they don't like my personality or my profile. I haven't seen many weird messages either. I think it comes down to what I try to tell all the idealists that it's a very superficial world out there at least among people my age

I obviously don't know you, but looking at your avatar I can tell you're a pretty good looking guy, and you obviously have a head on your shoulders. Feel free to PM me too if you want to talk further. Hope to hear back.

That's because you haven't seen me from the neck down. Anyone who says being overweight doesn't matter in the dating world is living in a bad romance movie. I think that changes the older women get, so I'm trying to go for older women now. They usually match my maturity level better than people my age. Though ideally I'd like to date someone with my maturity level who's my age, but I'm not holding my breath. I'm also learning to lower my standards looks-wise as it's usually only people who are as attractive or less attractive then me that are interested. And yes there are some people that are just out of my league looks-wise, although fortunately many of them can be unattractive personality-wise, and I'm not really going to change my mind on that until I'm proven wrong. I know I'm attractive enough and I have a lot to offer but people just don't see that. Whatever. I'm very close to just giving up on the whole romance/sex thing and becoming and uber-nerd again and just staying inside reading and watching movies all the time.

Thanks though