Message Boards and Forums Directory
ALCOHOL ADDICTION
12 STEPS
Discuss and learn more about these
following steps for AA
CHAT MEETINGS
Sunday
Monday
Tuesday
Wednesday
Thursday
Friday
Saturday
NARCOTICS ADDICTION
12 STEPS
Discuss and learn more about these
following steps for NA

Go Back   SoberRecovery : Alcoholism Drug Addiction Help and Information > Special-Interest Groups > The Men's Room
Register Blogs FAQ Calendar Arcade Mark Forums Read Chat Room [1]


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-07-2009, 04:38 PM   #1 (permalink)
July 25, 2009
 
ClayTheScribe's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Thornton, CO
Posts: 371
Calming the urges

So I'm 24 and I've never had sex and only one short-term relationship when I was 16. I'm starting to come to terms with being a virgin and get over the embarrassment as it was one of the big reasons I drank. I understand for a long time in sobriety you should avoid relationships and sex. However now, especially that I just graduated college and have more confidence, I feel the sexual urges and desire for relationships more than ever. I want to get to a place where I don't desire sex and intimacy and a relationship as much so recovery goes smoother for me. Besides masturbating to keep the urges at bay, what else should I do? Or am I screwed until I can establish a long period of sobriety and how long should that be? Should I stop masturbating altogether and be completely celibate?

I posted here because I feel most women can't relate to the seemingly constant sexual urges men my age experience.

Thanks,
Clayton
__________________
If you don't want to slip, stay away from slippery places. -Dual Recovery Anonymous
ClayTheScribe is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2009, 05:32 PM   #2 (permalink)
Can you meet me halfway?
 
ex D-Boy's Avatar
hey bro, havent gotten to talk much with ya but welcome to sr and congrats on finishing school and getting sober.

Don't be ashamed about the virginity thing, its not a big deal at all. When you meet the right person they wont judge or look down upon you for that. Being that my DOC was heroin, the drug would completely turn my sex drive to less than zero, Anne Hathaway coulda been at my door and I would have turned her away. Once getting sober it came flooding back in, I felt like I was 13 again. THe program and people 'suggest' no relationships or sex for 1 year because that is a major change in your life. Some people are able to handle relationships or sex during that initial year of sobriety fine. You could be one of them.

If you decide however that you want to continue to wait until after one year of sobriety that is good as well. As for keeping the urges at bay...heh, I would think that stopping jacking off all together would only increase urges. Atleast after you masturbate you go a few hours being content and not thinking about sex so much. I feel like sex would be on my mind 24/7 if I wasnt sexually active or masturbating.

My advice ? Brazzers . com works wonders stay safe bro ~~ Scott
__________________
I've lost so many relationships. Is it just because I dont relate to s***?
ex D-Boy is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to ex D-Boy For This Useful Post:
AlkalikeH (08-07-2009), marty888 (08-08-2009)
Old 08-07-2009, 05:41 PM   #3 (permalink)
Member
 
MycoolFitz's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Here, Now
Posts: 450
James Joyce calls masterbation "Honeymoon of the Hand" Celibacy is just self-denial as sex addiction is excess, the trick is to find the middle way. Your young yet, it'll happen for you, then watch out, focus on your sobriety and day to day life, don't get too anxious or uptight and don't give up either. It'll come (no pun intended) in its on sweet time and way. Just be here now, open to the moment, it will find you.

“There is no other place. We’re forever here…There’s only this one place: right here, right now…To be here is freedom from insanity, fear, worry, struggle, striving, the urgent desire to control, and the habitual yearning for security and escape from pain.”—Steve Hagen, Buddhism is Not What You Think
MycoolFitz is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2009, 06:19 PM   #4 (permalink)
July 25, 2009
 
ClayTheScribe's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Thornton, CO
Posts: 371
Quote:
Originally Posted by MycoolFitz View Post
James Joyce calls masterbation "Honeymoon of the Hand" Celibacy is just self-denial as sex addiction is excess, the trick is to find the middle way. Your young yet, it'll happen for you, then watch out, focus on your sobriety and day to day life, don't get too anxious or uptight and don't give up either. It'll come (no pun intended) in its on sweet time and way. Just be here now, open to the moment, it will find you.
I've been chasing after being in the moment for a few years now and have only found it for like a second at a time. Very frustrating. I've kind of given up on it. I've read Be Here Now and The Power Of Now and the idea just doesn't click. My depression keeps me in the past, or mostly, in the future. I just can't seem to escape my thought patterns. I know virginity is not a big deal to those who've lost it, but it is to me and I don't want it to be anymore. Drives me crazy sometimes. You can say you understand, but most men lose it before 20. But I think I have bigger challenges and other things to worry about than that, so I just need to focus on those, namely my insecurities that keep me from getting in a relationship or sex. And I've pretty much given up on losing my virginity to happen, which is maybe what I need right now--letting go. They always say love happens when you're not looking. I want to be in a position where I'm not looking, but I can't quiet the storm and the desire. How do I come to terms with it and accept it?
__________________
If you don't want to slip, stay away from slippery places. -Dual Recovery Anonymous
ClayTheScribe is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2009, 06:28 PM   #5 (permalink)
Member
 
MycoolFitz's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Here, Now
Posts: 450
We'll get you there, if you've found a second in the present you're doing better than many. I'll recommed some other reading for you and practice. I think a little Soto Zen might be in order. I finish my move to my little monk's hut tomorrow and I'll dig through some stuff. Don't give up and don't give in. You're already here, now equipped with everything you'll ever need. You just don't know it yet. Remember, abstinence makes the heart grow fonder. :-)
MycoolFitz is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2009, 08:21 AM   #6 (permalink)
Member
 
TheSunAlsoRises's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Singapore
Posts: 317
I know how you feel I had my V-card till I was 20. Its hard to take from someone who has been there... but don't take it too seriously. It will happen when it should. In the mean time I can recommend doing some research into tantric and expanded orgasm, You will get a lot more out of sex when you do get there, and all the stuff will make your personal time a lot better as well...
TheSunAlsoRises is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2009, 02:59 PM   #7 (permalink)
July 25, 2009
 
ClayTheScribe's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Thornton, CO
Posts: 371
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSunAlsoRises View Post
I know how you feel I had my V-card till I was 20. Its hard to take from someone who has been there... but don't take it too seriously. It will happen when it should. In the mean time I can recommend doing some research into tantric and expanded orgasm, You will get a lot more out of sex when you do get there, and all the stuff will make your personal time a lot better as well...
Wow 20, that's SUCH a long time...please. That's the average age for most people to lose it. If I understand tantric masturbation well enough, I have been trying that, as far as edging, but I can still never last very long because I don't have the patience. That's one of my fears of sex, that after say 10 times I'll still be cumming too soon. Whatever. I'm trying to give up on finding love and sex since it finds you when you're not looking. It's frustrating but I'm trying to monitor my thoughts more to quell the sexual urges. It's hard though as they're so biological and strong sometimes. Thank god I take psych meds to lower my libido some. If you could point me to a good site about tantric masturbation or expanded orgasm, I would appreciate it. Most of the stuff I found was for couples.
__________________
If you don't want to slip, stay away from slippery places. -Dual Recovery Anonymous
ClayTheScribe is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2009, 03:33 PM   #8 (permalink)
Member
 
yeahgr8's Avatar
 

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Gibraltar
Posts: 1,693
Blog Entries: 8
Keep working on your recovery and keep jerking off!

My first time was on my mum's sofa in doggie style with the local bike, i finished in no time, came all over her legs which she didn't like too much and she turned round and said do you want to see me again, do you think you'll be better next time lol i can laugh now! Then i told her i was a virgin and she said that she would have booked a hotel room etc if she had known...go figure! I ended up going out with her for a year...go figure again?!

I hope when the time comes that you meet a nice girl, who will totally understand and welcome the fact that you are a virgin and she is special, i'm sure this will be the case unless you are pissed up and you will probably have an experience like mine!

Seriously get the jerking off thing off the table, that is ridiculous and will cause you problems if you try and stem your sexual desires!
__________________
An alcoholic and compulsive gambler working a program of recovery
yeahgr8 is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2009, 01:51 AM   #9 (permalink)
BDP
Rising Phenoix
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 31
dude, I wouldn't worry about it too much. Just continue to improve yourself and get where you want to be and everything will fall into place. I was a virgin until 22 and now 7 years later I'm pretty much a born again virgin and it really doesn't bother me. Would I like to have sex especially since I've had it before, you bet. But it doesn't bother me that I'm not. I just jerk off and keep it moving. I have much bigger things to worry about. Maybe I find this so easy b/c I have never thought much about relationships and never really wanted one. Hell, I'm 29 and still don't want a girlfriend really. I can understand the benefits I guess but I'm not sure if it's really worth all the hassle.

anyway, good luck with everything.
BDP is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2009, 02:16 PM   #10 (permalink)
Member
 
TheSunAlsoRises's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Singapore
Posts: 317
Hey Clay, sorry I didn't mean to offend you... most of my friends had lost it by the time they were 15 or 16. Edging doesn't work unless you learn to circulate the energy through your body, I don't think I have enough post to insert a link. Which is just as well because I don't have one. I just read a book on the subject called the multi-orgasmic couple.
Anyway man I hope that your sobriety is going well and you won't let the urges affect it. Hang in there man...
TheSunAlsoRises is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2009, 06:16 PM   #11 (permalink)
Member
 

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: New York
Posts: 10
I think this man is just looking for companionship and sex like all the rest of us and we shouldn't be trying to convince him that he should just ignore it and keep living in his own head. I wanted to comment on this because it was a primary struggle for me for years and I too hated being a virgin and waiting for it to go away.

If you wanted a better job, would you sit around and read books and try to find inner peace or would you go out and hunt for jobs?

I think this is probably the common case of how men treat women. Are you being real sweet and nice to every woman you meet? Dont. This is a numbers game and you won't win them all. Be yourself, be blunt, tease them, be direct. Most importantly BE CONFIDENT. Women don't care where you're from, or about your SAT scores or how far you can throw the discus. All they want is a man who is comfortable in his own skin and makes her feel safe. Make her laugh without being lame. Who really cares what she thinks about you anyway? In my experience (please correct me if I'm wrong) women are easier to spot than garbage cans and you can always focus on a new one.

This is all practice. Keep striking out with women everywhere and make an idiot out of yourself asking for numbers and TELLING THEM they should come with you on a date. Don't ask. Just tell her she should come out with you. If she says she's busy, you say "Some other time then" and walk away. Find another one. Be a busy man. Be the one to end the phone call. Keep options. Women love a man with options.

After some failures, I think you'll be surprised how quickly you begin succeeding.

You don't have to be alone.
Walter is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2009, 06:54 PM   #12 (permalink)
July 25, 2009
 
ClayTheScribe's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Thornton, CO
Posts: 371
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walter View Post
I think this man is just looking for companionship and sex like all the rest of us and we shouldn't be trying to convince him that he should just ignore it and keep living in his own head. I wanted to comment on this because it was a primary struggle for me for years and I too hated being a virgin and waiting for it to go away.

If you wanted a better job, would you sit around and read books and try to find inner peace or would you go out and hunt for jobs?

I think this is probably the common case of how men treat women. Are you being real sweet and nice to every woman you meet? Dont. This is a numbers game and you won't win them all. Be yourself, be blunt, tease them, be direct.
I'm not afraid to tease them a little bit and I'm always direct (usually too direct and I scare them off), but I'm not willing to be an ******* or be mean because that's not being myself. I know the type of women who like abuse and they have low self-esteem and they're usually immature. I'm not interested in those women. I understand the nice guy finishes last but I know several women who likes guys who are respectful, so I'm not going to entirely stop being nice.

Quote:
Most importantly BE CONFIDENT.
This has been driven into my head a lot and I understand why it's important. I gained a little more confidence after graduating but the depression struggles with me in my attempt to gain more confidence. I think in my case I'm going to have to fake it till I make it and hope they don't find me out as a fraud along the way.

Quote:
Women don't care where you're from, or about your SAT scores or how far you can throw the discus. All they want is a man who is comfortable in his own skin and makes her feel safe.
I can make her feel safe, but I'd be lying if I said I was completely comfortable in my own skin. Again, the depression keeps that from being a reality. I guess I'm comfortable enough in my skin that I can fake the rest.

Quote:
Make her laugh without being lame. Who really cares what she thinks about you anyway? In my experience (please correct me if I'm wrong) women are easier to spot than garbage cans and you can always focus on a new one.

This is all practice. Keep striking out with women everywhere and make an idiot out of yourself asking for numbers and TELLING THEM they should come with you on a date. Don't ask. Just tell her she should come out with you. If she says she's busy, you say "Some other time then" and walk away. Find another one. Be a busy man. Be the one to end the phone call. Keep options. Women love a man with options.
What options are you talking about? Like other things to do, or other women to date?

Quote:
After some failures, I think you'll be surprised how quickly you begin succeeding.

You don't have to be alone.
__________________
If you don't want to slip, stay away from slippery places. -Dual Recovery Anonymous
ClayTheScribe is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2009, 07:10 PM   #13 (permalink)
Member
 

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: New York
Posts: 10
Well, other things to do AND other women to date. I guess what I mean is women don't like someone who clings, but rather someone who doesn't need them. I know this isn't a storybook ending you'd want to hear, but I also know what did and didn't work for me. I could wait around being the nicest guy in the world and spilling my guts to every girl who ever cared about me, but that's not what made them get naked and that's what it sounds like you want. I'm trying to help you make some progress with your problem.

You sound like you've heard a lot of this before but I wonder how you're using it out in "the field". I certainly don't mean you need to be an ass or be disrespectful. My current girlfriend loves the fact that I take women seriously and listen to them.

I guess what I'm getting at is all these little actions convey a certain mentality to a woman. After all, women have been trained since they were little girls to read a man and understand what he's thinking and how to lead him on, testing him, making him jump through hoops. You've seen it! They can smell a fake a mile away. What I'm saying is the man who turns the game around on them, here and there, catches their attention. It has to seem effortless but they'll remember you. I've definitely faked confidence, but in time it became habit. Faking won't work in the long run. I don't suffer chronic depression but I have experienced bouts of depression, and you're right. It makes it a lot harder to meet women. Maybe, after hearing all this, you do need to be happy with yourself, or adjust medications, etc before you can really take that step with a woman or modify your approach. I use to spend a lot of time in the woods, climbing mountains and all sorts of solo sh** before I could walk up to a girl in stride..Whatever you do, it is possible to make changes and get more attention from women. I want you to sense hope. Why stay alone?
Walter is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2009, 07:26 PM   #14 (permalink)
Forum Leader
 
Dee74's Avatar
 

Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: South Seas
Posts: 14,658
I was a lot older than you when I lost my virginity Clayton - it may seem all important now but trust me it isn't...and thats not me being condescending...I'm not denying how you feel, but ultimately I ended up amazed I obsessed for so long over it.

From a recovery standpoint, I wouldn't go looking to do anything about this now...relationships are tricky things for anyone - for someone trying to stay sober, and negotiate unfamiliar sexual plotics, it might be a minefield.

Just keep doing...whatever it is you're doing

And could we please not turn this into a how I lost my virginity thread? LOL


D
Dee74 is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Dee74 For This Useful Post:
trucker (08-25-2009)
Old 08-21-2009, 10:28 PM   #15 (permalink)
July 25, 2009
 
ClayTheScribe's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Thornton, CO
Posts: 371
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dee74 View Post
I was a lot older than you when I lost my virginity Clayton - it may seem all important now but trust me it isn't...and thats not me being condescending...I'm not denying how you feel, but ultimately I ended up amazed I obsessed for so long over it.

From a recovery standpoint, I wouldn't go looking to do anything about this now...relationships are tricky things for anyone - for someone trying to stay sober, and negotiate unfamiliar sexual plotics, it might be a minefield.

Just keep doing...whatever it is you're doing

And could we please not turn this into a how I lost my virginity thread? LOL


D
Someone also made the point that relationships can lift you up and help you in your sobreity, so I dunno. If I don't have a relationship or sex within the next few months, I probably will drink again. This lack of intimacy is one of the reasons I drank so why not fill that void and give me one less reason to abuse?
__________________
If you don't want to slip, stay away from slippery places. -Dual Recovery Anonymous
ClayTheScribe is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2009, 11:17 PM   #16 (permalink)
Forum Leader
 
Dee74's Avatar
 

Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: South Seas
Posts: 14,658
Quote:
If I don't have a relationship or sex within the next few months, I probably will drink again. This lack of intimacy is one of the reasons I drank so why not fill that void and give me one less reason to abuse?
Does it (drinking) really fill the void tho? Didn't for me.

It made it worse really cos I'd think of all the couples out there being together while I was home alone drinking....so I drank more....which made me stay at home more....which kept me from meeting people and forming friendships and relationships that could lead somewhere...and when I did go out, I felt so out of place - I got drunk....

See the theme there?

Maybe I really am too old to remember back into the prehistoric age that was my 20s Clay LOL.

I see this really is a big thing for you and you're busting to do something about it....in the end, you're gonna do what you want to do Clay...

It seems like you have your mind made up...just make sure you know what you want - you speak of love, but this seems mainly about sex....

and please - don't let anything - relationship/sex, or the lack of it - become an excuse for drinking.

Good luck!
D
__________________
May you trust God that you are exactly where you are meant to be. May you not forget the infinite possibilities that are born of faith. May you use those gifts that you have received and pass on the love that has been given to you.

Last edited by Dee74; 08-21-2009 at 11:39 PM.
Dee74 is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2009, 02:07 AM   #17 (permalink)
July 25, 2009
 
ClayTheScribe's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Thornton, CO
Posts: 371
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dee74 View Post
Does it (drinking) really fill the void tho? Didn't for me.

It made it worse really cos I'd think of all the couples out there being together while I was home alone drinking....so I drank more....which made me stay at home more....which kept me from meeting people and forming friendships and relationships that could lead somewhere...and when I did go out, I felt so out of place - I got drunk....

See the theme there?

Maybe I really am too old to remember back into the prehistoric age that was my 20s Clay LOL.

I see this really is a big thing for you and you're busting to do something about it....in the end, you're gonna do what you want to do Clay...

It seems like you have your mind made up...just make sure you know what you want - you speak of love, but this seems mainly about sex....

and please - don't let anything - relationship/sex, or the lack of it - become an excuse for drinking.

Good luck!
D
It appears you misread my post entirely and just skimmed it and then responded. That's alright, I'll explain.

I want to be in a relationship so I have one less reason to drink. Drinking feels a void only for a couple of hours and then misery. But I can see myself losing my willpower to stay away from the sauce if I'm still alone like six months from now, if not earlier. So finding a relationship, and yes, sex, is important to me to help me in my sobreity.

I hope that's clear enough.
__________________
If you don't want to slip, stay away from slippery places. -Dual Recovery Anonymous
ClayTheScribe is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2009, 03:20 AM   #18 (permalink)
Forum Leader
 
Dee74's Avatar
 

Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: South Seas
Posts: 14,658
LOL I didn't misread or skim anything Clay - I don't do 'duty' replies.
I did take some things as read, tho, and I cut to the chase.

This is a recovery site. I focused on the drinking because as I said, in my opinion the relationship stuff sorts itself out. Sorry if that seemed like I was disinterested, my apologies.

I'll try again. No harm no foul.

Drinking won't fill the void if you don't find a girlfriend.

Finding a girlfriend to fill the void won't work either - been there done that,
broke a few hearts that should never have been broken.

A relationship should never be a reason not to drink - love should never be squandered like that. People should never be squandered like that.

If you want to fill the void and find a reason not to drink - work on yourself Clay.
Thats the only way to do it.

That way - when you meet 'The One' you won't lose her, or hurt her, becuase you weren't ready for her.

Kinda wrecks your 6 month timetable I know, but these things, like recovery, laugh at timetables.

I sense you think I'm being condescending - I'm not trying to be.
But I am too old for 'tude, dude. (see, very old LOL)

All I can do is share my experiences Clay - if you'd rather not hear what I have to say, just let me know

D
__________________
May you trust God that you are exactly where you are meant to be. May you not forget the infinite possibilities that are born of faith. May you use those gifts that you have received and pass on the love that has been given to you.
Dee74 is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Dee74 For This Useful Post:
mattcake79 (08-22-2009)
Old 08-22-2009, 03:31 AM   #19 (permalink)
July 25, 2009
 
ClayTheScribe's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Thornton, CO
Posts: 371
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dee74 View Post
LOL I didn't misread or skim anything Clay - I don't do 'duty' replies.
I did take some things as read, tho, and I cut to the chase.

This is a recovery site. I focused on the drinking because as I said, in my opinion the relationship stuff sorts itself out. Sorry if that seemed like I was disinterested, my apologies.

I'll try again. No harm no foul.

Drinking won't fill the void if you don't find a girlfriend.

Finding a girlfriend to fill the void won't work either - been there done that,
broke a few hearts that should never have been broken.

A relationship should never be a reason not to drink - love should never be squandered like that. People should never be squandered like that.

If you want to fill the void and find a reason not to drink - work on yourself Clay.
Thats the only way to do it.

That way - when you meet 'The One' you won't lose her, or hurt her, becuase you weren't ready for her.

Kinda wrecks your 6 month timetable I know, but these things, like recovery, laugh at timetables.

I sense you think I'm being condescending - I'm not trying to be.
But I am too old for 'tude, dude. (see, very old LOL)

All I can do is share my experiences Clay - if you'd rather not hear what I have to say, just let me know

D


Sorry for my previous response. I only had a few hours of sleep last night and hadn't taken my night meds. I was in a bad mood and I took it out on you. I'm sorry. It won't happen again.

I appreciate your advice but I can't promise I'm going to avoid a relationship while working on myself. Maybe this is something I need to learn on my own. I know it's wrong for me to hold hostage a relationship over drinking. I'll try not to do that. I feel I've done a lot of work on myself and I'm ready. If I mess up, hopefully you'll be the first to say "I told you so." I'm just tired of waiting for a relationship and no one's really given me a way to deal with the loneliness, so I seek to end it. And I'm not necessarily trying to find "The One" just SOMEone who I'm compatible with. I've got many more years to find The One.

But with my luck, I probably won't find anyone anyways, so you'll get your wish Dee.

Thanks.
__________________
If you don't want to slip, stay away from slippery places. -Dual Recovery Anonymous
ClayTheScribe is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to ClayTheScribe For This Useful Post:
Dee74 (08-22-2009)
Old 08-22-2009, 03:38 AM   #20 (permalink)
Forum Leader
 
Dee74's Avatar
 

Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: South Seas
Posts: 14,658
We all have bad days Clay - no worries - my days not been one I'll remember with great fondness either.

I'd never say I told you so - and I sincerely hope you find the kind of relationship I did.

You're a intelligent passionate considerate young guy - you deserve it....just don't let up on trying to quell those demons...

night Clay
D
__________________
May you trust God that you are exactly where you are meant to be. May you not forget the infinite possibilities that are born of faith. May you use those gifts that you have received and pass on the love that has been given to you.
Dee74 is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2009, 09:34 PM   #21 (permalink)
Member
 
soidog's Avatar
 

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: The Plains
Posts: 69
I had somewhat similar experiences as you. In high school and college I had few dates and only one girlfriend. I lost my virginity around 23. Since then I have had a number of partners, but have struggled with alcoholism and to a lesser degree depression over the years. I have yet to be married, but now that I am sober - and at the age of 37 - I have finally met the love of my life (after learning a LOT from previous failed relationships) and I am hoping that we will marry within a year or two (she too, has never been married). My point being that eventually, the right one will come to you.

As to your original conundrum, I wonder...what do you think is the reason why you feel driven to drink if you aren't in a relationship? Boredom? Loneliness? Just trying to understand more bro. Write back.
soidog is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2009, 09:56 PM   #22 (permalink)
July 25, 2009
 
ClayTheScribe's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Thornton, CO
Posts: 371
Quote:
Originally Posted by soidog View Post
I had somewhat similar experiences as you. In high school and college I had few dates and only one girlfriend. I lost my virginity around 23. Since then I have had a number of partners, but have struggled with alcoholism and to a lesser degree depression over the years. I have yet to be married, but now that I am sober - and at the age of 37 - I have finally met the love of my life (after learning a LOT from previous failed relationships) and I am hoping that we will marry within a year or two (she too, has never been married). My point being that eventually, the right one will come to you.

As to your original conundrum, I wonder...what do you think is the reason why you feel driven to drink if you aren't in a relationship? Boredom? Loneliness? Just trying to understand more bro. Write back.
One, my pity party was an excuse to drink. Two, I had a lot of anxiety about it, mainly about being insecure about approaching women and shooting myself down before I even let them have a chance (I still have these anxieties, but have felt lighter about them since I stopped drinking) and drinking helped quell my anxieties in general, even if for a few hours. Three, I was trying to drown out the feeling of loneliness until alcohol became my mistress.

I also drank because of boredom, and most of all, 'cause I wanted to have fun or celebrate. I've been 29 days since my first relapse and my alcohol cravings have been way less than before I relapsed. I can't see myself drinking just because I'm alone again because I know it only makes me feel worse. I think it's just that because I was drinking to drown the anxieties, now that I'm sober I have to deal more with those issues and they've hit me kinda strong at times. But I've been hanging around friends a lot more and that makes some of the loneliness less of a burden. I suppose too I feel some sort of rush to have sex because men are kind of brought up that you're weaker the longer you have your virginity. I try not to subscribe to that, but I do feel in the back of my head there's some societal standard I have to meet, not that I should give a $hit what society thinks. I just get physically impatient sometime for affection and sex, but I know I want it to be with someone I trust. Doesn't have to be necessarily with my true love (it's going to take me a looong time before I find someone perfectly compatible with me) but someone I trust enough as a sexual partner. I suppose there's no rush necessary, the hormones sometimes just make it feel like an itch I have to scratch urgently. I'm still going to look and try to get enough courage to approach women once I get new clothes and the courage to, but I'm also going to work more on gaining and exuding confidence, even if some of it is fake, until some lucky sap falls for me.
__________________
If you don't want to slip, stay away from slippery places. -Dual Recovery Anonymous
ClayTheScribe is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2009, 06:54 PM   #23 (permalink)
Member
 
soidog's Avatar
 

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: The Plains
Posts: 69
Well, its good to hear that alcohol abuse seems off the table. The first and hardest step is just stopping and most people don't even get to that point. I actually don't think that social anxieties about women for us guys is abnormal at all. Its just a matter of degree, and you may have more anxieties than most. Its true too that the older you get, you feel more pressured to have sex just because of social expectations. I don't know what to say about that other than I can sympathize because I've been there.

In anycase, I don't think you should repress sexual urges. Masturbation IS healthy after all, nothing wrong with it at all. And definitely keep off the booze. Have you tried other, more positive diversions than drinking like working out, running, a hobby? As I mentioned earlier, I'm still single but am close to being engaged. Still, I have a lot of free time and in my free time I run, work out, and also read a lot, as well as play computer games. It keeps me very busy, in addition to work, and of course I no longer waste away my time being drunk.

Perhaps you need to find new approaches for women? Have you tried online dating yet? Its really THE best way nowadays for single people to meet others, and its so common nowadays I feel its almost the norm.

I obviously don't know you, but looking at your avatar I can tell you're a pretty good looking guy, and you obviously have a head on your shoulders. Feel free to PM me too if you want to talk further. Hope to hear back.
soidog is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2009, 07:17 PM   #24 (permalink)
Member
 
trucker's Avatar
 

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: england
Posts: 1,322
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClayTheScribe View Post
It appears you misread my post entirely and just skimmed it and then responded. That's alright, I'll explain.

I want to be in a relationship so I have one less reason to drink. Drinking feels a void only for a couple of hours and then misery. But I can see myself losing my willpower to stay away from the sauce if I'm still alone like six months from now, if not earlier. So finding a relationship, and yes, sex, is important to me to help me in my sobreity.

I hope that's clear enough.
my friend let me save your a bit of time and heartache here...

its my experience of years of trying to find the ultimate thing to keep me away from the booze.

i tried relationships......with some stunning women that made me feel great but i got pissed.

i tried sex to the point of addiction........got pissed.

i tried women outside marriage....got pissed.

i moved to different countrys around europe..........got pissed...cheaper than uk but still got pissed.

i got my hands on a pretty large amount of money......and got pissed.

i got a big house........fast car......got pissed.

only aa and the 12 steps kept me sober...........often i see guys working through that little list of mine............and reach the same result...

god filled that hole in me.....jeez if was one of the above i would have stuck with it.....period.

there aint NO back doors..........alcoholism will corner the alcoholic everytime in the end...

but there is hope........establish your recovery into something that doesnt need anything to fix it or put a price on it.

good luck.
trucker is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2009, 09:47 PM   #25 (permalink)
July 25, 2009
 
ClayTheScribe's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Thornton, CO
Posts: 371
Quote:
Originally Posted by soidog View Post
Well, its good to hear that alcohol abuse seems off the table. The first and hardest step is just stopping and most people don't even get to that point. I actually don't think that social anxieties about women for us guys is abnormal at all. Its just a matter of degree, and you may have more anxieties than most. Its true too that the older you get, you feel more pressured to have sex just because of social expectations. I don't know what to say about that other than I can sympathize because I've been there.

In anycase, I don't think you should repress sexual urges. Masturbation IS healthy after all, nothing wrong with it at all. And definitely keep off the booze. Have you tried other, more positive diversions than drinking like working out, running, a hobby?
I work out almost every day on the recumbent bicycle for 30-60 minutes. That makes me feel better. I can't go running because I'm still too heavy (270 lbs, 6'0) and it kills my joints. And I get easily winded. And I hate running. As soon as I get a steady job with real money, I'm going to buy a new bike and start riding that around, but I don't know when that'll be. I write as a hobby--it is my passion--though not as much as I should and I'm reading more for pleasure now that I'm out of college, though I don't know if that constitutes a hobby. Besides that I watch TV shows online and lots of movies on DVD. I have a cent to my name so I can't really afford to do anything else right now. Hobbies only distract me from being lonely for so long, but it's all I've got.

Quote:
As I mentioned earlier, I'm still single but am close to being engaged. Still, I have a lot of free time and in my free time I run, work out, and also read a lot, as well as play computer games. It keeps me very busy, in addition to work, and of course I no longer waste away my time being drunk.

Perhaps you need to find new approaches for women? Have you tried online dating yet? Its really THE best way nowadays for single people to meet others, and its so common nowadays I feel its almost the norm.
Yes am on OKCupid and PlentyOfFish right now. Have messaged many people, have got very few responses, only one indicated she was interested and she's supposedly out of town. It comes down to I'm not trim and attractive enough for most women/men, or they don't like my personality or my profile. I haven't seen many weird messages either. I think it comes down to what I try to tell all the idealists that it's a very superficial world out there at least among people my age

Quote:
I obviously don't know you, but looking at your avatar I can tell you're a pretty good looking guy, and you obviously have a head on your shoulders. Feel free to PM me too if you want to talk further. Hope to hear back.
That's because you haven't seen me from the neck down. Anyone who says being overweight doesn't matter in the dating world is living in a bad romance movie. I think that changes the older women get, so I'm trying to go for older women now. They usually match my maturity level better than people my age. Though ideally I'd like to date someone with my maturity level who's my age, but I'm not holding my breath. I'm also learning to lower my standards looks-wise as it's usually only people who are as attractive or less attractive then me that are interested. And yes there are some people that are just out of my league looks-wise, although fortunately many of them can be unattractive personality-wise, and I'm not really going to change my mind on that until I'm proven wrong. I know I'm attractive enough and I have a lot to offer but people just don't see that. Whatever. I'm very close to just giving up on the whole romance/sex thing and becoming and uber-nerd again and just staying inside reading and watching movies all the time.

Thanks though
__________________
If you don't want to slip, stay away from slippery places. -Dual Recovery Anonymous
ClayTheScribe is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
constant, desire, sex, urges, virgin


Currently Active Users Viewing this Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:49 PM.


 

© 2007 SoberRecovery, LLC.
A proud member of the SoberRecovery® Network of Addiction and Recovery Websites

The SoberRecovery Forums are operated under a grant from The Mulligan Group


1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183 184 185 186 187 188 189 190 191 192 193 194 195 196 197 198 199 200 201 202 203 204 205 206 207 208 209 210 211 212 213 214 215 216 217 218 219 220 221 222 223 224 225 226 227 228 229 230 231 232 233 234 235 236 237 238 239 240 241 242 243 244 245 246 247 248 249 250 251 252 253 254 255 256 257 258 259 260 261 262 263 264 265 266 267 268 269 270 271 272 273 274 275 276 277 278 279 280 281 282 283 284 285 286 287 288 289 290 291 292 293 294 295 296 297 298 299 300 301 302 303 304 305 306 307 308 309 310 311 312 313 314 315 316 317 318 319 320 321 322 323 324 325 326 327 328 329 330 331 332 333 334 335 336 337 338 339 340 341 342 343 344 345 346 347 348 349 350 351 352 353 354 355 356 357 358 359 360 361 362 363 364 365 366 367 368 369 370 371 372 373 374 375 376 377 378 379 380 381 382 383 384 385 386 387 388 389 390 391 392 393 394 395 396 397 398 399 400 401 402 403 404 405 406 407 408 409 410 411 412 413 414 415 416 417 418 419 420 421 422 423 424 425 426 427 428 429 430 431 432 433 434 435 436 437 438 439 440 441 442 443 444 445 446 447 448 449 450 451 452 453 454 455 456 457 458 459 460 461 462 463 464 465 466 467 468 469 470 471 472 473 474 475 476 477 478 479 480 481 482 483 484 485 486 487 488 489 490 491 492 493 494 495 496 497 498 499 500 501 502 503 504 505 506 507 508 509 510 511 512 513 514 515 516 517 518 519 520 521 522 523 524 525 526 527 528 529 530 531 532 533 534 535 536 537 538 539 540 541 542 543 544 545 546 547 548 549 550 551 552 553 554 555 556 557 558 559 560 561 562 563 564 565 566 567 568 569 570 571 572 573 574 575 576 577 578 579 580 581 582 583 584 585 586 587 588 589 590 591 592 593 594 595 596 597 598 599 600 601 602 603 604 605 606 607 608 609 610 611 612 613 614 615 616 617 618 619 620 621 622 623 624 625 626 627 628 629 630 631 632 633 634 635 636 637 638 639 640 641 642 643 644 645 646 647 648 649 650 651 652 653 654 655 656 657 658 659 660 661 662 663 664 665 666 667 668 669 670 671 672 673 674 675 676 677 678 679 680 681 682 683 684 685 686 687 688 689 690 691 692 693 694 695 696 697 698 699 700 701 702 703 704 705 706 707 708 709 710 711 712 713 714 715 716 717 718 719 720 721 722 723 724 725 726 727 728 729 730 731 732 733 734 735 736 737 738 739 740 741 742 743 744 745 746 747 748 749 750 751 752 753 754 755 756 757 758 759 760 761 762 763 764 765 766 767 768 769 770 771 772 773 774 775 776 777 778 779 780 781 782 783 784 785 786 787 788 789 790 791 792 793 794 795 796 797 798 799 800 801 802 803 804 805 806 807 808 809 810 811 812 813 814 815 816 817 818 819 820 821 822 823 824 825 826 827 828 829 830 831 832 833 834 835 836 837 838 839 840 841 842 843 844 845 846 847 848 849 850 851 852 853 854 855 856 857 858 859 860 861 862 863 864 865 866 867 868 869 870 871 872 873 874 875 876 877 878 879 880 881 882 883 884 885 886 887 888 889 890 891 892 893 894 895 896 897 898 899 900 901 902 903 904 905 906 907 908 909 910 911 912 913 914 915 916 917 918 919 920 921 922 923 924 925 926 927 928 929 930 931 932 933 934 935 936 937 938 939 940 941 942 943 944 945 946 947 948 949 950 951 952 953 954 955 956 957 958 959 960 961 962 963 964 965 966 967 968 969 970 971 972 973 974 975 976 977 978 979 980 981 982 983 984 985 986 987 988 989 990 991 992 993 994 995 996 997 998 999 1000 1001 1002 1003 1004 1005 1006 1007 1008 1009 1010 1011 1012 1013 1014 1015 1016 1017 1018 1019 1020 1021 1022 1023 1024 1025 1026 1027 1028 1029 1030 1031 1032 1033 1034 1035 1036 1037 1038 1039 1040 1041 1042 1043 1044 1045 1046 1047 1048 1049 1050 1051 1052 1053 1054 1055 1056 1057 1058 1059 1060 1061 1062 1063 1064 1065 1066 1067 1068 1069 1070 1071 1072 1073 1074 1075 1076 1077 1078 1079 1080 1081 1082 1083 1084 1085 1086 1087 1088 1089 1090 1091 1092 1093 1094 1095 1096 1097 1098 1099 1100 1101 1102 1103 1104 1105 1106 1107 1108 1109 1110 1111 1112 1113 1114 1115 1116 1117 1118 1119 1120 1121 1122 1123 1124 1125 1126 1127 1128 1129 1130 1131 1132 1133 1134 1135 1136 1137 1138 1139 1140 1141 1142 1143 1144 1145 1146 1147 1148 1149 1150 1151 1152 1153 1154 1155 1156 1157 1158 1159 1160 1161 1162 1163 1164 1165 1166 1167 1168 1169 1170 1171 1172 1173 1174 1175 1176 1177 1178 1179 1180 1181 1182 1183 1184 1185 1186 1187 1188 1189 1190 1191 1192 1193 1194 1195 1196 1197 1198 1199 1200 1201 1202 1203 1204 1205 1206 1207 1208 1209 1210 1211 1212 1213 1214 1215 1216 1217 1218 1219 1220 1221 1222 1223 1224 1225 1226 1227 1228 1229 1230 1231 1232 1233 1234 1235 1236 1237 1238 1239 1240 1241 1242 1243 1244 1245 1246 1247 1248 1249 1250 1251 1252 1253 1254 1255 1256 1257 1258 1259 1260 1261 1262 1263 1264 1265 1266 1267 1268 1269 1270 1271 1272 1273 1274 1275 1276 1277 1278 1279 1280 1281 1282 1283 1284 1285 1286 1287 1288 1289 1290 1291 1292 1293 1294 1295 1296 1297 1298 1299 1300 1301 1302 1303 1304 1305 1306 1307 1308 1309 1310 1311 1312 1313 1314 1315 1316 1317 1318 1319 1320 1321 1322 1323 1324 1325 1326 1327 1328 1329 1330 1331 1332 1333 1334 1335 1336 1337 1338 1339 1340 1341 1342 1343 1344 1345 1346 1347 1348 1349 1350 1351 1352 1353 1354 1355 1356 1357 1358 1359 1360 1361 1362 1363 1364 1365 1366 1367 1368 1369 1370 1371 1372 1373 1374 1375 1376 1377 1378 1379 1380 1381 1382 1383 1384 1385 1386 1387 1388 1389 1390 1391 1392 1393 1394 1395 1396 1397 1398 1399 1400 1401 1402 1403 1404 1405 1406 1407 1408 1409 1410 1411 1412 1413 1414 1415 1416 1417 1418 1419 1420 1421 1422 1423 1424 1425 1426 1427 1428 1429 1430 1431 1432 1433 1434 1435 1436 1437 1438 1439 1440 1441 1442 1443 1444 1445 1446 1447 1448 1449 1450 1451 1452 1453 1454 1455 1456 1457 1458 1459 1460 1461 1462 1463 1464 1465 1466 1467 1468 1469 1470 1471 1472 1473 1474 1475 1476 1477 1478 1479 1480 1481 1482 1483 1484 1485 1486 1487 1488 1489 1490 1491 1492 1493 1494 1495 1496 1497 1498 1499 1500 1501 1502 1503 1504 1505 1506 1507 1508 1509 1510 1511 1512 1513 1514 1515 1516 1517 1518 1519 1520 1521 1522 1523 1524 1525 1526 1527 1528 1529 1530 1531 1532 1533 1534 1535 1536 1537 1538 1539 1540 1541 1542 1543 1544 1545 1546 1547 1548 1549 1550 1551 1552 1553 1554 1555 1556 1557 1558 1559 1560 1561 1562 1563 1564 1565 1566 1567 1568 1569 1570 1571 1572 1573 1574 1575 1576 1577 1578 1579 1580 1581 1582 1583 1584 1585 1586 1587 1588 1589 1590 1591 1592 1593 1594 1595 1596 1597 1598 1599 1600 1601 1602 1603 1604 1605 1606 1607 1608 1609 1610 1611 1612 1613 1614 1615 1616 1617 1618 1619 1620 1621 1622 1623 1624 1625 1626 1627 1628 1629 1630 1631 1632 1633 1634 1635 1636 1637 1638 1639 1640 1641 1642 1643 1644 1645 1646 1647 1648 1649 1650 1651 1652 1653 1654 1655 1656 1657 1658 1659 1660 1661 1662 1663 1664 1665 1666 1667 1668 1669 1670 1671 1672 1673 1674 1675 1676 1677 1678 1679 1680 1681 1682 1683 1684 1685 1686 1687 1688 1689 1690 1691 1692 1693 1694 1695 1696 1697 1698 1699 1700 1701 1702 1703 1704 1705 1706 1707 1708 1709 1710 1711 1712 1713 1714 1715 1716 1717 1718 1719 1720 1721 1722 1723 1724 1725 1726 1727 1728 1729 1730 1731 1732 1733 1734 1735 1736 1737 1738 1739 1740 1741 1742 1743 1744 1745 1746 1747 1748 1749 1750 1751 1752 1753 1754 1755 1756 1757 1758 1759 1760 1761 1762 1763 1764 1765 1766 1767 1768 1769 1770 1771 1772 1773 1774 1775 1776 1777 1778 1779 1780 1781 1782 1783 1784 1785 1786 1787 1788 1789 1790 1791 1792 1793 1794 1795 1796 1797 1798 1799 1800 1801 1802 1803 1804 1805 1806 1807 1808 1809 1810 1811 1812 1813 1814 1815 1816 1817 1818 1819 1820 1821 1822 1823 1824 1825 1826 1827 1828 1829 1830 1831 1832 1833 1834 1835 1836 1837 1838 1839 1840 1841 1842 1843 1844 1845 1846 1847 1848 1849 1850 1851 1852 1853 1854 1855 1856 1857 1858 1859 1860 1861 1862 1863 1864 1865 1866 1867 1868 1869 1870 1871 1872 1873 1874 1875 1876 1877 1878 1879 1880 1881 1882 1883 1884 1885 1886 1887 1888 1889 1890 1891 1892 1893 1894 1895 1896 1897 1898 1899 1900 1901 1902 1903 1904 1905 1906 1907 1908 1909 1910 1911 1912 1913 1914 1915 1916 1917 1918 1919 1920 1921 1922 1923 1924 1925 1926 1927 1928 1929 1930 1931 1932 1933 1934 1935 1936 1937 1938 1939 1940 1941 1942 1943 1944 1945 1946 1947 1948 1949 1950 1951 1952 1953 1954 1955 1956 1957 1958 1959 1960 1961 1962 1963 1964 1965 1966 1967 1968 1969 1970 1971 1972 1973 1974 1975 1976 1977 1978 1979 1980 1981 1982 1983 1984 1985 1986 1987 1988 1989 1990 1991 1992 1993 1994 1995 1996 1997 1998 1999 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012 2013 2014 2015 2016 2017 2018 2019 2020 2021 2022 2023 2024 2025 2026 2027 2028 2029 2030 2031 2032 2033 2034 2035 2036 2037 2038 2039 2040 2041 2042 2043 2044 2045 2046 2047 2048 2049 2050 2051 2052 2053 2054 2055 2056 2057 2058 2059 2060 2061 2062 2063 2064 2065 2066 2067 2068 2069 2070 2071 2072