I believe

[ragidiman]

I beg to differ with the majority of the people here at SR

If U have read my posts then U know that I speak my mind.
Now my mind may think different from some, but it could think
the same as others.
I amnot a hypocrite.
I only believe that I can be an addict without being an alcoholic.

A drug is a drug is a drug is total BS to me.

The reason alcahol is legal in most every where U are is because
our forefathers know more than I know.

If this gets under Ur skin then stop reading now !!

If U want to hear more then I will say or type more,,, later, as
some believe that black and white cannot be heard.

This is only the beginning !

Now in case U are concerned, I will not bash anyones belief,
because our beliefs are what gets us thru our lives.

any comments thus far are welcome.

latter on.

PS. what I believe does not mean that U should believe the same.

and if you agree with some of what I said, U can PM me if U
dont want anyone else to know !
and if U dont care what the rest of the world thinks
then be my guest to post Ur opinions here, now or later.


You see I told U that I clashed with my PO in rehab !

[CarolD]

So...you post I post and so do others.

[ethereal girl]

OK, I'll post too! Ragadiman, I just so happen to share your belief, and I'm not ashamed to say so......in front of God and all of SR. It works for me, and I know a few others who make it work for them too. I'm not talking about drinking to excess, or in place of the d.o.c. , but some occasional imbibing is a welcome luxury at times. My d.o.c. is the only thing that has ever brought me to my knees, and made me forget who I was, and not care what I believed in. Not so with alcohol. I will admit that in the beginning, there was a tendency to "go with the flow" and forget about my recovery once the alcohol was in my system, but then again, if I'm honest, a part of me still wanted to use then, alcohol was just a handy 'excuse' for letting myself off the hook with the other substance. Once I got serious about what I really, truly wanted (to be free of my d.o.c.) no problem. It works for me. I respect that it doesn't work for everyone.
Peace out!
~EG~

Ragidiman...

I only believe that I can be an addict without being an alcoholic.

You're certainly entitled to your opinion...although I'm one of the many who wouldn't agree with you. Alcohol is a drug, and it was my drug of choice. The reason it's legal is because it's such a big money maker!!!

ethereal girl...

but some occasional imbibing is a welcome luxury at times.

My d.o.c. is the only thing that has ever brought me to my knees, and made me forget who I was, and not care.

I'm afraid I can't allow myself that luxury, because that's exactly what alcohol did to me!!!

IMHO...you two are splitting hairs, and just looking for an excuse to be able to quit everything else, but continue to drink. So be it...have a couple on me, would you!?!

[nocellphone]

I always enjoy this topic of debate!

I'll just say that I've met many recovering addicts who decided to do some more "research" with alcohol, only to find that they ended up back in the same pain that got them to attempt recovery in the first place. I guess the only way to learn is through experience...

My question for any addict who feels alcohol is safe is this: since alcohol lowers inhibitions and impairs the decision-making process (I'm sure we can all agree on that), what do you think will happen when, after a few harmless drinks, your true drug-of-choice happens to make an unscheduled appearance? These things happen, y'know...

Several of my family members are active in Narcotics Anonymous (I've been to some meetings myself as an observer)...I know, they too, advocate total abstinence from any mood altering drug...that would, of course, include alcohol.

[Irish Virus]

Originally Posted by ragidiman

I only believe that I can be an addict without being an alcoholic.

This is true if you never or hardly ever touched alcohol. The same can be said that I can be an alcoholic and not a drug addict. Well, the reason being is that I did not abuse drugs throughout my life like I did alcohol.

You state that you are not an alcoholic and I believe you. But what is your consumption level and how often do you drink? Maybe you are in denial or you just don't drink. If you don't think you can ever become an alcoholic, drink a case a beer or a fifth of wiskey a day for a couple of years and see what the outcome will be. Maybe you can defy all odds.

[Sugah]

If this were a controversy or a raging debate, I would stay out of it, but at this point, it seems to be just a discussion, so I'll toss my two cents into the kitty.

I call myself an alcoholic or an addict depending on whether I'm sitting in an AA meeting or an NA meeting. I know folks who suffer from the disease of alcoholism who've never had more than a couple of drinks, yet when they go to AA, they identify themselves as an alcoholic. The same holds true for those who've never done anything but drink identifying themselves as an addict in the rooms of NA. To me, that's respect for the program. My sponsor goes strictly to AA, and her drug of choice was heroin. She never liked the taste or general effect of alcohol, though she feels that if she were in active addiction and was jonesing for her DOC, alcohol would - and has, for her - become a substitute. While in active addiction, she suffered from the same hopeless state of mind and body described in the Big Book.

I began my career at a very early age with alcohol. By age ten, I was smoking pot. By age eleven, I was dealing speed for my sister to earn my share. Meth, coke, and opiates all followed, along with doses of hallucinogenics in there as well. I believe I was born with the mind of an addict. Regardless of what I put in my body, if it had the effect of altering my mind or my mood artificially, I would abuse it. That's why, when asked, I say my DOC is MORE.

Why is it that some people can drink heavily - seemingly alcoholically - for years and just stop when sufficient reason is present? Maybe they have situational reasons. Maybe they live in a culture where it's acceptable, or they develop a "habit" as a result of early peer pressure. They can have the same kinds of health and environmental issues as an alcoholic, but if they can just stop, to me, they're not alcoholic. The Big Book deals with this kind of heavy drinker - and describes the difference between him or her & the real alcoholic. Bill W. talks about how he abused sedatives as well as alcohol when they were introduced by his doctor. In Doctor, Alcoholic, Addict, the same issues are addressed. So... to me, sobriety includes absence of chemicals as well as booze, because I've come to believe that any real alcoholic will abuse anything introduced into his body that has a similar effect.

Drugs, I think, can be similar and at the same time different. Some drugs, like pot, can be used for long periods of time without a major physical addiction. Cocaine withdrawal was the easiest physical detox I ever went through, but it was the worst, psychologically. Any non-addict taking opiates, even for relatively short periods of time, will experience physical dependence. And, an opiate high feels good to someone who isn't in that desperate place in addiction that demands that we stop or die. So, a non-addict can go on with a physical dependence, building physical tolerance and requiring increasing doses for the same effect, without having that "hopeless state of mind and body" that the real alcoholic/addict has. Withdraw the drug, and the body and - if not too badly damaged, the mind - returns to the pre-dependent state.

The real alcoholic/addict is, to me, someone whose mind learns and craves escape from problems and situations that the normal person would find other avenues to deal with - and requires a psychic change in order to recover from the disease of addiction. I can recover from a hopeless state of mind and body, but I can never recover my ability to use any substance safely that allows me to escape myself. I can't recover it because I never had it to begin with. Now, I realize that there is a school of thought that says addicts can be made over time - I'm not arguing that. I'm saying that, for me, I was born an addict, I'll always be an addict, but I can recover from the addictive state of mind so long as I do not put anything into my body that will awaken that state of mind.

So, can an addict safely drink? I don't think so. Someone whose become physically dependent on drugs, maybe, but a true addict will, eventually, use alcohol as they did drugs or return to their original DOC - or find a new one.

Can an alcoholic use drugs safely? Same thing - if they are used to escape oneself, eventually, they will return to alcohol or use drugs in the same manner that they used alcohol.

A lot of what I've stated comes from insight revealed to me by my own addiction, but I really have yet to find the Big Book or the Basic Text contradict my beliefs.

And, if I'm wrong - well, I know how bad it was. I'm not willing to do anymore research to find out.

Have a peachy, sober day!

Peace & Love,
Sugah

[Phinneas]

Originally Posted by Sugah

The real alcoholic/addict is, to me, someone whose mind learns and craves escape from problems and situations that the normal person would find other avenues to deal with - and requires a psychic change in order to recover from the disease of addiction. I can recover from a hopeless state of mind and body, but I can never recover my ability to use any substance safely that allows me to escape myself. I can't recover it because I never had it to begin with. Now, I realize that there is a school of thought that says addicts can be made over time - I'm not arguing that. I'm saying that, for me, I was born an addict, I'll always be an addict, but I can recover from the addictive state of mind so long as I do not put anything into my body that will awaken that state of mind.

Well said, Sugah. Amen.

I can only speak for myself, too. Recovery to me is not a game. I *know* that a drug is a drug is a drug. I will not risk my sobriety by putting alcohol or drugs into my body. Been there done that and almost didn't survive to get the damn Tshirt too many, many times.

[ragidiman]

thanks

mainly for your honesty plus respect.

I have felt a little uneasy, not sure if I am a hypocrite because of this.

I have drank beer since after high school, long ago. I slowed down
alot when I got married then completely stoped when my first son
was born' an ofcoarse started back when divorced.

but during my 5 year stint with my DOC I hardly drank at all, mainly
because my DOC didnt mix well in my system with beer, if you know what
I mean "gag".

Oh, others could do this and tried to get me to, and besides making me sick
it just didnt make sense to take my pills and kill the effect with beer uno.
Plus the alcohol also, for me took away the pain relieving ability of my pills.

I dont drink much anyway, but I do drink.

Thats about it in a nut shell.

I hope everyone can somewhat understand my reason for starting this thread.

And thanks again for all replys posted and PMd

after all im just a

[kellie351969]

hello ragidiman

GOOD MORNING. WELL AS YOU KNOW I HAD ACOUPLE OF DRINKS THE OTHER NIGHT AND HAVE ASKED MYSELF DID I MUCK UP MY CLEAN TIME WELL IM GOING TO SAY NO I CANT EVEN STAND ALCOHOL SO WAY DID I DRINK HELL I DONT KNOW I THOUGHT IT WAS A BETTER ALTERNATIVE THEN WHAT I WAS WANTING TO DO AND SINCE I KNOW I WONT TOUCH ANOTHER DRINK FOR ANOTHER YEAR OR SO AND I CANT SAY THAT IF I WOULD OF TAKEN A PILL I BE TAKING MORE EVERYDAY AND I WOULDNT BE POSTING THIS I WOULD BE OUT GETTING HIGH SO IM STILL CLEAN EVERYBODY CAN HAVE THEIR OWN OPINION BUT I SAY I AM.

[lulu70]

Okay, then. Hypothetically speaking, by your reasoning, if I am an alcoholic and not an addict, it is okay for me to go out and smoke a little pot, maybe do a little cocaine, or pop the occasional pill, right? And as long as I am not drinking, I am still sober?

Just wondering what you thought........

WOW...Kellie...after all that, I'm almost, but not quite, speechless! All I can think of to say is, "Good luck with this interesting new program. You will be in my prayers."

[Kathy Z]

[QUOTE=ragidiman]

but during my 5 year stint with my DOC I hardly drank at all, mainly
because my DOC didnt mix well in my system with beer, if you know what
I mean "gag".

Oh, others could do this and tried to get me to, and besides making me sick
it just didnt make sense to take my pills and kill the effect with beer uno.
Plus the alcohol also, for me took away the pain relieving ability of my pills.


********Boy can I relate to your above statement. I am working on day 5 off of opiates. A little about me briefly:

Both my parents were alcoholic - no drugs. I started drinking at a young age (around 10 sipping my dads beer) When my both parents passed away within 3 months of each other when I was 18 I turned to alcohol for comfort. Bartended, drank perfect combo right? Well it might of been had alcohol not affected me the way it did. Blackouts were a nightly thing, my entire personality would change - I'd become nasty and argumentative, sexually provacotive (which wasn't me), lots of changes in me. I didn't care for a while....I needed the numbing effect of the alcohol so I didn't feel the pain of my parents death.

Ok fast forward a few years I realized I had to stop drinking. I loved it but hated what it did to me. I stopped.........didn't use any program or anything, just stopped.

Continued stopped for quite a few years then started having a few here and there. The problem became that once I had my first drink I never knew what the outcome would be. Perhaps I'd have a few, enjoy my company and go to bed like a normal person. Or I wouldn't be able to stop, would drink shot after shot after shot, black out, find out the next day the most embarrasing things I said did etc. I had the hardest time considering myself an *alcholic* I mean come on now, I could go years without drinking, literally. That changed in an AA meeting I happened to be in for my husbands cocaine addiction. It was the only meeting around that night and since he was agreeing to go we went! Someone shared something that made me realize and accept that I was indeed an alcoholic. They said it doesn't matter how often you drink but instead what happens to you when you do. WOW! That clicked it in for me.

Fast forward even more to 19 mos ago. My last last son was born by ceserean. They sent me home with a script of percocet. It said on the bottle not to use if you've ever had a problem with alcohol. Well guess what? They were right. I loved them. They were like the perfect drunk. No blackouts, no messiness, no hangovers, just a perfect fuzzy feeling in my head.

And here I am today, 4 full days clean. So for me personally........I have to remain free of all mind altering substances to consider myself clean. That might not apply to everyone, but it certainly does to me.

[miss communicat]

my 2 cents:

I did exactly this.

21 years ago I dropped the DOC. I learned "all" about addiction in 12 step/NA and yet, decided I could control myself with alcohol since its not a drug since its legal (which means absolutely nothing btw. look at this society. its NOT real healthy, but, yeah, alcohol is not a drug)

21 years later....here I am. and NOT because of drugs. Its the alcohol, period.

anyway, I'm glad to be here. what a relief that I no longer have that inner conflict to drain my better energies, no more wrangling with whether or not alcohol is okay for me, and if red wine works but tequila doesn't....etc etc..

Good luck! MC

[ragidiman]

I have finally come to the conclusion that (I, ME, MYSELF, are not alcoholics)
And I will recover from addiction, I will be a "recovered addict" And if I'm the
only one, then so be it. Nobody else has to be one, but I,ME,MYSELF,will be!

My resolve is firm and strong and gets stronger every day.

What happened, Y was I addicted to pills ?

CUZ I ABUSED THEM, that's why, and that's what I can never do again.

raerob: Save the world with sarcasms if U want to, good luck!

LuLu: to each, his or her own. Do it if U want, try it if Ud like, that's the
only real way ta find out. I just wouldn't recommend it for ya though as
U already said U cant handle it.

Kathy: blessed are those that show respect for their fellow human beings.

I'm not pushing anything on anybody, just calling it as I see it.

respectfully holla

[ragidiman]

we all realy do want to help people here, just that opinions differ from time to time.

It's just one of those little things that happen in life, you know the ones
we shouldn't dwell on too long.

And OK, I will take it if U want me to have it, thanx.

remember all
Im just a

[Cathy31]

I just watched my first ever episode of that amazing American series "Intervention"

I was a bit disappointed to learn - I ordered it especially from US - that of all the 4 addicts depicted - 2 per episode, none would be alcoholics like myself.

Well!!!! This amazing incredibly eye opening programme proved *for me* once again that a drug is a drug is a drug. There was a gambler, 2 drug addicts and a shopaholic!!!!

All of their insanity and denial was the same as mine!

I was glad to be reminded once again that we're all in the same boat. Addiction is addiction.

[earlybird]

Yeah the "Intervention" is a great show, I was also disappointed they didnt profile an alcoholic.

Anyways,....maybe I missed it in the posts, but, I dont think anyone answered that question that LuLu asked. "If you are not drinking, but still using drugs, or not using drugs, but still drinking, do you consider yourself still sober?"

If your DOC got so bad for you that it caused harmful effects in your life, then you can safely say that you are an addict. So once you can admit to that, the next step is GETTING SOBER. So how can you consider yourself sober if you are still seeking ways to alter your mind even if its not with your DOC?????? What you are suggesting has been proven to NOT work. Are you saying that out of the millions of people who say it doesnt work, all the substance abuse doctors that say this doesnt work, are you saying that YOU are the exception? Or that they are all wrong?

Gee, Ragidiman...where's your sense of humor? I guess you were referring to one of the following remarks:

So be it...have a couple on me, would you!?!

"Good luck with this interesting new program. You will be in my prayers."

"sarcasm": remarks expressing contempt, often by ironical statements (according to Webster's Dictionary). Son of a gun, Ragidiman...you saw right through me...and, here I thought I was being so clever...NOT! BTW...I'm certainly not so arrogant as to think I can "save the world"...I consider myself darned lucky if I can save my own butt by staying away from one drink a day at a time.

U know that I speak my mind.

I, too, speak my mind...sometimes, instead of saying I think a person is "full of it", I try to temper my remarks with humor...I'm sorry you didn't see it that way. And, good luck being a "recovered addict"...no such animal, any more than there is such a thing as a recovered alcoholic.