History In The Making

[Dee74]

regarding 'bar stool economics'......

I keep my political opinions to myself - but I was idly looking through here and I thought I'd seen this before...so in the interests of a bit of truth, some parity...and a lot of parody...

"How Tax Cuts Work" by David R Kamerschen -REFUTED - The Real Way Tax Work Removing the Internet Garbage | Viral Grape Vine

D

[Horselover]

Wish I could hit the "thank you" button more then once Dee.

[Jersey Nonny]

I thought we were done with this Apparently not! For better or worse, like it or not, the election is over, folks. The country has a new President...and, he's in the process of appointing those who will advise and support him in his efforts to lead us out of this mess. Are we going to support him/them?

Perhaps you can enlighten us in the morning

Hilltopper...this comment was made to Horselover. You said something similar to me when I wasn't surprised there had been a "plot" to assassinate Obama (even before he was elected). I didn't feel required to explain myself to you, which is why I deliberately ignored your remark.

I am a registered Democrate so it has nothing to with him personally I dont like what his policies are on alot of things and its a damn shame people didnt research what he said before they voted for him to be OUR president thats all.

I am not a registered Democrat, but I voted for Obama because I did my research. So, I too, resent the implication that, by making a choice different than yours, I didn't know what I was doing.

It's very obvious there are certain of us who feel one way, and those who feel another, evidenced by the overwhelming election results. Personally, I feel it's time to lay that poor dead horse to rest.

[Horselover]

"Personally, I feel it's time to lay that poor dead horse to rest. "

Jersey - I totally agree with you, but could you please rephrase that??

LOL!

[windysan]

Keep me posted on the hope and change stuff. Thanks.

I (heart) Don Knotts.

[Jersey Nonny]

Originally Posted by Horselover

"Personally, I feel it's time to lay that poor dead horse to rest. "

Jersey - I totally agree with you, but could you please rephrase that??

LOL!

Sorry, HL! Can we please put all this discourse to rest!?! Better?

[Jersey Nonny]

Originally Posted by windysan

Keep me posted on the hope and change stuff. Thanks.

I (heart) Don Knotts.

Oh, I'm sure you...and even Don Knotts (wherever he may be)...will notice the difference.

[Hilltopper1972]

Originally Posted by LaTeeDa

I did a lot of research before I voted. I did not vote for Hillary in the primary because she is part of the problem. I would love to have a woman president, but she is not the right woman.

I researched McCain's voting record in congress because I actually liked what he appeared to stand for before he sold out to the right. There was never a vote on military action that he opposed in all his years except the ones where he wanted more aggression. The times he voted against sending troops into harms way were the times he proposed alternatives that involved more agression. He is and has always been pro-war, even more than Bush. I, being pro-diplomacy and anti-war could not vote for him based on that issue alone. The fact that he chose a religious fundamentalist for a running mate only solidified my position.

I read both candidates web sites and their policy positions. I can agree and disagree with many things both of them proposed.

The other issue that made my choice clear was his answer in the third debate regarding Supreme Court justices and his desire to have Roe V. Wade overturned. As much as the Christian fundamentalists hate it, this country is made up of diverse beliefs and opinions and was founded on the principles that everyone is free to believe as they choose.

I take offense at the suggestion that anyone who voted for Obama is stupid and did not do the research. I did plenty of research and came to my own conclusions based on my beliefs, priorities, and opinions. I also have two children who are nearing the age of majority and would prefer that they do not end up as cannon fodder.

I will agree to disagree with you on taxes and infrastructure and whatever else you wish to debate. But please do not disrespect my intelligence by suggesting I made a choice based on stupidity.

L

L,

I thought that was someone else's post mentioning infrastructure, no? I know you've done your research and it shows. Many, many, I truly believe most on both sides did not. I base this on the many conversations I've had on and offline regarding any number of election subjects. Did someone else call you stupid? Not I. You and I fundamentally disagree which is fine. I do however find it disturbing that 22% of voters define themselves as "liberal" whereas 34% defined themselves as "conservative" yet Obama gathered 52% of the vote. Many people had different reasons for voting for one candidate or another, but I believe that the biggest reason for this discrepency is in the message. Candidates, including Obama, don't suddenly run for President and become Centrists. He is the definition of a liberal, if not an ultra-liberal as his record shows. Yet his message didn't "sound" liberal at all which is what appealed to the public and ultimately won him the election. Brilliant campaigning by the Democratic Party and Obama staffers. The problem lies in the assertion that how many people thought they bought a gift marked "A" only to take it home, open it up and realize that the gift and label don't match? I'd said about 20-30%. Time will tell.

[adore79]

Originally Posted by Hilltopper1972

Did you really just say that, "I trust government a lot more than for-profit corporations?" Goodness gracious, why? They are more honest? Have your best interests in mind? Please say it isn't so.

Yup.

[adore79]

If you believe FOX news, which I dont, the reason Obama won was because 17% of the people who voted for Bush in the last election voted democratic this time.

[Hilltopper1972]

Originally Posted by Dee74

regarding 'bar stool economics'......

I keep my political opinions to myself - but I was idly looking through here and I thought I'd seen this before...so in the interests of a bit of truth, some parity...and a lot of parody...

"How Tax Cuts Work" by David R Kamerschen -REFUTED - The Real Way Tax Work Removing the Internet Garbage | Viral Grape Vine

D

Parity is fine, but when you start referring to truth I have to step in. Please be patient as you may have to read real world facts here and it can be painful for libs. I'll never tire of pointing out what happens when you decide you want more of the rich's money. Criticisms abound that the wealthy don't "earn" there money. Or that they stepped on people along the way. Or that they hide their money from the IRS, or that they had a silver spoon. Some of that is true, but most of it is not. I make over $250,000 a year and by no means am I rich. I don't have yachts. We have a Honda and a Ford. We live in a fairly nice house and a fairly nice life and are very fortunate. I did build my company from scratch on my own dime and hard work like most small business owners. I earned every penny while treating my employees like royalty and letting them share in the success of the company. They cash paychecks, pay mortgages, put food on the table and buy products and services in our community. Now you come along and want to take "only" 3.5% more. You and I both know that 3.5% is not where it ends, they will always want more thru income tax, sales tax, you name it. They also won't decide that national health care is the last govt run program that we want and then we'll leave you alone. The pursuit of taking from the wealthy and the notion that they don't "need" it as much as anyone else or whatever liberal reasoning is, is ridiculous. Obama said he wants to build the economy from the bottom up. It doesn't work, and how can it?
So here I am with this company that I built to a lot of hard work and achievement. I have employees that count on their gainful employment provided by our success or failure. What libs want is for me to eat the difference in gross profits from either increase income tax, mandatory health care, etc., its all taxes one way or another. If I don't want to eat it then I'm not compassionate and I'm not interested in the greater good according to some.
If I don't eat it then I may have to raise prices, let a person or two go, not buy some office equipment that we otherwise would have, etc. This effects every consumer or business user that uses or needs our service with higher prices, potentially one or more employees will be without jobs and not be able to pay for rent, mortgage, etc. If I don't buy office equipment then the company that builds the stuff won't be able to hire more people, reinvest, and on and on and on.
So the moral of the story is, the rich guy that buys $59 worth of the $100 bar tab is one driving the economy. Don't stick it to him because you're gonna end up paying the price one way or another. It may not be you this time, maybe it is your buddy down the street, but if you keep coming after our money that we earned fair and square, you'll ultimately be the one that loses.

[Dee74]

I wasn't making a political point HT.
I only have a finite amount of time here I prefer to spend it helping others not arguing politics.

The 'truth' I referenced was that this was not written by a reputable economist - no-one knows who it was written by it seems. I wanted to make that point.

You might like what it says - but in the end, it's just some guys opinion that he didn't want to put his name to.

I wouldn't put my trust in something that purports to encapsulate the American tax system in 300 words, but thats me.

The fact this analogy is trite is one thing - the fact it really trivializes the fact that millions of people, in your country and mine, are living below the poverty line, is another.

That really matters to me. Go figure.

See you in the Newbie forum
D

[Morning Glory]

If you all want to continue the political debates would you start a blog and move the debate out of the Café forum.

http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/blogs/all/

Post the blog link here and then I'll close the thread.

Thank you,
MG

[LaTeeDa]

The election is over. Time to practice acceptance.

[windysan]

Can we include gun maintenance and tractor maintenance sections in the new political debate thread thingie? thanks

[Jersey Nonny]

Originally Posted by windysan

Can we include gun maintenance and tractor maintenance sections in the new political debate thread thingie? thanks

Maybe you'd want to start your own Tool Time thread.

[windysan]

Originally Posted by Jersey Nonny

Maybe you'd want to start your own Tool Time thread.

Ahem. Okay jersey. LOL

[chrisea]

“Don’t put off till tomorrow what can be enjoyed today.”
I'm sure some business owners are going to take this motto.

a want of mine, that you can live with a 40 hr work week, that it would take only one paycheck to keep a family going, (more time for our children) But I don't see that happening. Since I heard this week on the news, we may not even have cars made here in the next couple of yrs. Some more good jobs gone. Look where our steel factories are (they aren't coming back), they make handsome Malls (with min. wage jobs).

The afternoon of the election, they showed D Trump, building a golf course on some beautiful land in Scotland.

[warrens]

Neither ideology, not political cynicism have ever produced much in this country. People working toward objectives they deem just, have. It takes involvement and a willingness to believe that reasonable people will see things differently. Actually DOING something.

If I have an ideology, it is that the success of this country has been, since WWII, tied to a thriving middle class.

Most of the non trust fund rich are rich because people can buy stuff. Trickle up. Bill Gates, et al, would not be rich if people were standing in soup lines. No Democratic administration has stripped people of their right to guns. No Republican administration has stripped the right of women to choose.

When the middle class thrives, professors and NASCAR fans thrive. Hunters and Buddhists. Ideology and single issue voting has kept this country from being the beacon it once was. It is time that we stop trying to impose our will on others and simply stand for what we believe. Things will work out. Ayers and Wright, Falwell and Limbaugh, thrive on division. There are too many people thriving on our dissimilarities and fears. Too many people who think all political people are corrupt. We get what we deserve.

Ideological bridges are "bridges to nowhere." Passive cynicism serves no one. I am more interested in what people do rather than what they spew.

My choice for president won. When Bush won I hoped to god that he would succeed, in spite of my antipathy. Success is in all of our best interests. I'd rather be secure, safe, and serene, than right.

I really don't think Obama defeated John McCain. I think he defeated the passive ideology that has dominated this country for years, left and right. Backwards thinking. Operating from a premise and finding the pundit(s) and politicians who support it. If the wealthy pay higher taxes, but make twice the money, who wins? If the poor have fewer entitlements, but a brighter future, who wins? If health issues and retirement don't impoverish people who worked all their lives, who wins? If a degree didn't require people to indenture themselves for 20 years, who wins?

We have seen an enormous transfer of wealth by % in the past couple of decades. Layoffs and outsourcing and saddling employers with "benefits" have all taken their toll. Alan Greenspan's "mea culpa" was one of the most powerful indictments of Laissez Faire capitalism I've ever witnessed. And I liked the guy. The "system" does not regulate itself. Opportunity without risk = untethered greed.

We need to prosper because of each other and not in spite of each other. There are plenty of other countries poised to emulate our past of better, cheaper, via child labor, and rape of the planet. Question is, are we going to possess anything, product or political, that the world wants?

Obama is a man. That's all. May he not require an ideological "litmus test" for the most benign of appointments. If he does, we'll not have progressed much. Just more gridlock and snickers from the rest of the world. More cynical "politicians are all the same." May my three kids see better; they deserve it. They've worked hard, earned multiple degrees, and care about doing well by doing good. I hope they get the chance.

warren

[LaTeeDa]

Friday evening, my 7th grade son casually mentioned to me that some of the kids who were hoping McCain would win are now "crossing their fingers that Obama gets assasinated." No lie. I was shocked. These are 12yo kids we are talking about. I don't think they come up with this stuff all on their own.

I am truly saddened and dismayed that parents in my community would harbor these thoughts, much less verbalize them to innocent children. When I was a child, my parents taught me that the President of the United States was worthy of the utmost respect, no matter whether you agreed with him or not.

I know the campaign was divisive. I know many people are disappointed in the outcome. But, for the life of me, I cannot fathom those in my community who fancy themselves to be on the side of "morality" teaching their children such hatred.

Can you imagine the incredible guilt those children would feel if the unspeakable were to happen? If the news was filled with pictures of little Sasha and Malia mourning their father?

I honestly hope this country can come together and work for the common good. But, when I hear things like this, I fear we are doomed.

L

[warrens]

LTD, the current Newsweek is an epic issue. And I normally do not fancy Newsweek. Various writers chronicle the entire process since 2004. I'm about half way through it.

As I write, I am listening to "Cross Country Checkup," a Canadian radio institution. Canadian readers all know who Rex Murphy is. What a remarkable perspective!

Anyhow, I've learned a ton about the "smoke filled rooms" of the past four years. And I'm pretty well informed and make an effort to be so.

What moved me most? That Michelle Obama literally held the keys to Barack's candidacy. He didn't try to appeal to or persuade her. He gave her veto power. "If it ain't right for us, it ain't right for me." That included all the morbid possibilities.

I think Barack Obama is a "driven" man. But, not in the typical way. I think he is driven to serve as President, Senator, or "community organizer." He is driven to serve. Both he and Michelle could have earned eight figure salaries for many years.

He is going to surprise a lot of people. A lot of people will be dismayed. A lot of those people will be old lefty's like me. Presidents by nature are usually forced to the center. Some great social progress occurred under (gag) Nixon. And didn't under Carter.

I think this election represents more about what Americans aren't than what we are. And no person with a telescopic sight can change that. In my perfect world, the President, regardless of party, might have the supernatural powers of anonymity; capable of living under a bridge or financing one. Indistinguishable at will, in Montana or Manhattan. A man (woman) for all seasons. We all suffer from insulation, regardless of who we are. Since moving from 37 years of inner city Chicago, to the "bush" of north Idaho, I've always thought that we would benefit most if everyone were required to move every five years from urban to rural, rural to urban.

LTD, you are the person who just made change. For better, or for worse. I think strongly, for the better. You confronted fear and voted courageously. Issue by issue. You refused to be "baited," by race, religion, ideology, and "-isms." None of us are prognosticators. We know not where we will be in 4 years. But, we sure as hell know where we do not want to be. Where we are.

warren

warren

[Jersey Nonny]

I honestly hope this country can come together and work for the common good. But, when I hear things like this, I fear we are doomed.

Have faith that the households of the 17 and 1/2 million who voted for Obama are more like yours and mine.

Malcolm X was not the most popular person in the USA; but, when he was assassinated in 1965, I remember how horrifing it was to know his children were right there to witness it! Shame on anyone who would encourage such a despicable act!

[ccgirl2]

I just hope you know, that although I did not vote for Obama, I will absolutely stand behind him. He is our president and this is not the time to be hateful and ignorant. If he fails, we fail as a nation. I truly mean that.

[windysan]

I sure hope he keeps his campaign promise of bringing every single soldier home from Iraq by October 09.

[warrens]

So do a couple hundred million others, Windy.

One way, I think, is to put this war on TV, like Viet Nam. Aside from "shock and awe," it has been invisible to us, except to the victims.

Afghanistan is a different kettle of shrimp. As with Pakistan. This administration faces enormous issues. I will focus on those small things that I can do, like assisting those who will return, less whole than when they left.

warren