What Is Wrong With My People?

[GreenTea]

(WARNING: This will be controversial and probably get heated)
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I just caught some of the world news tonight and learned about "waterboarding".

I am flabbergasted.

We are returning to the Dark Ages. Call it the American Inquisition.

I don't care if you are a US citizen or not, torture is NEVER okay, not even for terrorists or criminals. And for the record, it does not matter WHERE it occurs, within my country's borders or outside of it. I feel like grabbing some signs and hopping a plane to DC tonight.



S T O P _ A L L _ U S E S _ O F _ T O R T U R E _ I M M E D I A T E L Y _ M R. _ P R E S I D E N T ! ! ! ! ! ! !

[kelsh]

Hi GeenTea,

I am just as shocked as you are. I wouldn't put it past Mr. Bush to be involved in more than that. He does not deserve to be called Mr. President or President Bush anymore in my estimation.

I am 67 years old and have never seen or heard of such crime in our government as we are hearing about these days.

I have had a Grandson and a Granddaughter's husband in Iraq and they both are having mental problems. My Grandson is in the National Guard and spent a year over there. The other one is in the Air Natiional Guard and he and my Granddaughter have already divorced after he did two tours in Iraq.

I have lost all respect for our Government abeit there are some good people involved but have their hands tied somewhat by the Bush Administration. Bush acts like a little kid stealing cookies out of the cookie jar and then smiling and waving that he has been successful.

kelsh

[tanyapmc]

what is waterboarding?

[kelsh]

Hi tanyapmc,

"Waterboarding" is a form of torture used to get information from prisoners, terrorists
and others, usually involving government issues and war criminals. I am not sure I have this quite right...but someone else may come on that knows more than I do. I read about it on the news on the internet.

kelsh

[Rowan]

Waterboarding is a form of controlled drowning used to extract information. Numerous experts have described this technique as torture. [1][2][3][4][5][6][7] Waterboarding consists of immobilizing an individual on his or her back, with the head inclined downward, and pouring water over the face to force the inhalation of water[8] and induce the sensation of drowning. Waterboarding has been used to obtain information, coerce confessions, punish, and intimidate. In contrast to merely submerging the head, waterboarding elicits the gag reflex,[9] and can make the subject believe death is imminent while leaving no physical damage.

[kelsh]

Thank You ROWAN,

I could not imagine what it all involved. This past week is the first time I had heard the term used.

kelsh

[splendra]

All I can say is the worlds practices and happenings is a lot like what is going on inside of me. Some days it seems like everything is right with the world then I hear something on the news and am reminded of terrible things that are inside me and close by in my friends, family, community,church.

Until each individual can resolve their inside stuff there will continue to be torture,murder,wars nobody can just let another be apparently.. I know in some ways I seek to manipulate others I never want to hurt someone but there are people who do want to hurt others. I get mad some times and want to beat up on some one. I can easily control this desire cause I know that deep inside I do not wish to harm another.

Some people cannot control their desire to injure some one. What are the soldiers fighting about? what is that about?? Why do we want to war with other countries? What is it? Why don't we stop it? Why do we let some one like bush/cheney run our country? When are we going to untie to abolish war and torture and all of it???

[GreenTea]

The waterboarding is merely the lastest in an ongoing travesty... We went past the "thin edge of the wedge" a while ago as near as I can tell, (I can be pretty quick with research when I need to be).

It sickens me to say it... "The American Inquisition"

I am former military, and no, I have not forgotten 9/11. Generally speaking, I have been a Bush supporter, and I do freely admit that he has made many mistakes these past years.

But this... this is simply inexcusable and unacceptable... and completely and utterly sickening... Thank you God for the 22nd Amendment!

Mr. Bush, you no longer have my support. I am outraged.

As for abolishing war, well... Be careful what you wish for. Remember that Hitler had a plan for world peace too.

[barb dwyer]

Yeah well, back durning the witch hunts ... waterboarding was called 'dunking'.

[itiswhatitis...]

on bill maher last nite - they referred to the nazi's - they used waterboarding and we admonished them for breaking the *rules* - i remember 9/11 too - my brother in law is a port authority police sargeant - i remember lots of things about 9/11 and the funny thing is iraq had absolutely NOTHING to do with 9/11 - the terrorists were saudi's living in hollywood florida - we should have stayed the path in afghanistan, searching for bin laden and the true instigators of 9/11 - look where the war in iraq has gotten us????? the great us is breaking all the rules of international law - the geneva conventions - and bush is making up the rules as he goes along - i think someone told him he could do whatever he wanted to do as president and he believe em scary stuff....

peace,
s

[Doug]

Bush got his job back last time he needed it. He can't get elected again, so what incentive does he have to do otherwise? Seems to be some kind of trend...no more landslide elections, and then repeat officials manage to say the right thing at the right time, (voting time) to make most folks forget about recent history, and give them their jobs back. And I'm not just talking about Presidents either, it happens like this all the way down the ladder. Gov's, Mayor's, and all long the list.

People live in fear of change, and keep up the same old-same old. And the same results keep happening.

I haven't heard anything about Waterboarding before this post, and now that I am, I find myself not at all surprised....

[LadyJane666]

I live in London, UK, perhaps you don't think I should say anything. However, many of us feel we are the 51st State. There was a huge demonstration here against the Iraq war and our voices were not heard. My eldest son was in the Air Force cadets and we thought it would be a good way of paying for college. I made him leave because this war scares the hell out of me. I feel that I have no say in a democratic process about this, I do not know anyone at all who is in favour of this war. On TV I watched Iraqi children shaking from their burn injuries and I don't know what we are fighting for. I was born in 1969 and have lived with the threat of IRA terrorism all my life in London. I always viewed it as a political war and accepted that London was a target. It never affected our lives.

I had respect for the "Irish question" and accepted being a target but I do not understand the Iraq situation and the inevitable Iran situation that will come. I am furious that the UK govt will not break away from GWBush.

[CarolD]

Well...
I have bleived for years that our political system
of Presidential elections is flawed.
The way to change?
Abolish the electorial ccollege
Elect by popular vote.

Of course we should not practice any method
of questioning not allowed by the Geneva Convention.
Nor should we hold suspects without a fair and timely trial.
It saddens me that we do.

I also wonder how our Executive branch has been able to
circumvent the Judicial and Congressional sections.
Where are the check and balances we are to have with
a 3 part government?

"We the people of the United States"
have lost our voices.

[dgillz]

Bush could issue an Executive Order tomorrow banning waterboarding and all torture.

Does anyone really think this will accomplish anything?

The military (and law enforcement) will torture when it suits their purposes. If you pass a feel good piece of legislation outlawing torture, they will STILL do it.

[Cindi R]

Scratching head.....
where y'all been for the last 4 and a half years...
watching the NFL and coverage of Anna Nicole?
have you any idea what kind of methods are being used on our soldiers?
Research that!
They're gonna blow us off the face of the map...
is anyone paying attention?

[Live]

I personally feel sick to my stomach everytime I see Bush grinning and saying MY GOVERNMENT.

[itiswhatitis...]

cindi r - who is going to blow us off the face of the map?????? the terrorists?????? the terrorists are not in iraq - the iraq war has nothing to do with terrorism - it was a dictatorship - there are LOTS of dictatorships existing right now - this very minute - bin laden is walking around making all kinds of plans for terrorist acts - as is his 2nd and 3rd in command (or did bush and cheney take credit for killing them???) - the war in iraq has nothing to do with fighting terrorism...

- as for torture - there was a time when the us followed the laws - international laws - the geneva convention - laws that were put in place by civlized nations - the bush administration has abandoned all rules put in place by civilized nations and has lost the respect of the international community - but hey, rush and bill think that's ok so, i guess...

i do have to ask though? - where have you been the past 4 1/2 years???? watching a little too much of the fox network??????

[nandm]

The US is no longer a democracy. It has become a dictatorship under the current dictator Bush. I would not even be surprised if the conspiracy theorists are correct in saying he knew about the 911 attacks before they were to happen but did nothing to stop them because he needed something to take the news attention off from the fact he stole votes in Florida. I am thankful for the people who believe impeachment is something that should be done, unfortunately, it will not happen before his term is up. The wiretapping of US citizens, the torture, oil company profits being at record highs but yet our gasoline prices are also at record highs (convienent since he is an oil man, guess he is making sure he has plenty of money to retire on), Abu Garab, the war in Iraq (he first claimed that Osama Bin Ladin was behind the terrorism, but conviently twisted it so we would go after Saddam who had made an assasination plot while Bush's father was president), the number of things he has put his veto on, his attempt to combine religion and politics, all show what a dictator he is. He does not care about what the people of this country think, need, or want. I am almost ashamed to say I am an American as it no longer represents the values of freedom and justice for all. Over the past 5 years I have seriously considered packing up and moving out of the country as things here just seem to get worse not better the longer he is in authority.

I don't think it is the average person that is the problem, it is our govermental system that no longer works. It is based on money and power not the will of the people, that has dwindled away over the years. The rich get richer, the poor get poorer and the gap between continues to broaden eliminating the middle class.

What I do find really sad is the human life cost that his dictatorship has taken. Our children, husbands, mothers, fathers, brothers, and sisters who have gone off to fight his "war on terrorism". I think the real terror threat lives in our white house he is the cause of so many deaths of innocent people just doing their job. That is my 50 cents worth.

[Live]

Amen!

[Jwife22]

I have to say that I thought this was not a political forum. I thought this was a recovery forum.

To me this is not a place to bash someone you don't like or agree with. It runs people off. It can run someone who is in trouble with drugs, alcohol or codependency off because they may feel like they don't belong here. They may not join because they don't want to see their political beliefs bashed.

Just my .02.

[nandm]

Here is a link to the impeach Bush site. There is a space there that you can email your congressman to encourage them to support a bill being presented to congress for impeachment.
https://secure2.convio.net/pepib/sit...rAction&id=111

[nandm]

Originally Posted by Jwife22

I have to say that I thought this was not a political forum. I thought this was a recovery forum.

To me this is not a place to bash someone you don't like or agree with. It runs people off. It can run someone who is in trouble with drugs, alcohol or codependency off because they may feel like they don't belong here. They may not join because they don't want to see their political beliefs bashed.

Just my .02.

Laura, sorry you feel that way but please read the description of Cafe Central "The SoberRecovery Coffee Shop. A forum to discuss issues not relating to recovery. A friendly open discussion- No flaming, bashing, arguing or insults allowed."
Although you may consider what we are discussing as bashing Bush, it is just an open discussion of our opinions and concerns related to his behavior as a President. No one has called him names, no one has told lies, we are just stating some of the things he has allowed and giving our opinion on them.

[Jwife22]

Originally Posted by nandm

Laura, sorry you feel that way but please read the description of Cafe Central "The SoberRecovery Coffee Shop. A forum to discuss issues not relating to recovery. A friendly open discussion- No flaming, bashing, arguing or insults allowed."
Although you may consider what we are discussing as bashing Bush, it is just an open discussion of our opinions and concerns related to his behavior as a President. No one has called him names, no one has told lies, we are just stating some of the things he has allowed and giving our opinion on them.

My main concern is not your discussion.

My main concern is that this discussion could easily run off a newcomer in need of help.

[nandm]

Originally Posted by Jwife22

My main concern is not your discussion.

My main concern is that this discussion could easily run off a newcomer in need of help.

In my opinion a newcomer seeking help would be more likely to seek it under one of the headings that deals with alcoholism, drug addiction, mental health, etc.... Cafe central is just that a place to sit down have a cup of coffee and discuss whatever comes to mind. It cleary states that in the description. If a newcomer reads any threads in any part of this site they are bound to find something they do not agree with or find offensive. If something like that runs them off then maybe they are not desperate enough to find recovery yet. A person can always find something to be offended by. There are many threads which I do not agree with. I just state my opinion and let it go. Take what I can use and leave the rest. If you find this thread offensive then post your opinion which you have and let it go. We are just having a simple discussion, voicing our opinions and concerns about the direction our country is headed. That is a cafe central type discussion, which is allowed. Again I am sorry that our discussion has offended you.

[Jwife22]

When I joined SR, yes that's how I found the site but I immediately started to search the whole site, Cafe Central included.

I'm not offended. I have my opinion and you have yours and that's the way it should be.

I know what I believe is right and wrong and can deal with others disagreement. That's part of what recovery has done for me.

I stated my opinion, that this could easily run off a newcomer, and so I've let it go.

Have a nice day!