Discussion anyone?

[nandm]

Ok, things have been really quiet around here lately. I am hoping to get us all a bit more active and involved which will allow us the chance to get to know each other better and hopefully help each of us feel more connected and supported. I am a firm believer that we cannot grow and learn with closed minds and shut off from others opinions and thoughts. So I am going to throw out topics for discussion.

The only thing is we have to keep in mind everyone has an opinion and deserves to be heard and respected whether or not the majority agrees with them. Please share your experiences and opinions but if you have links to some scientific research that is always interesting as well. So I ask that we all make a point to keep things civil and speak and think before we post responses when we are upset or disagree with someone else. What I have found works well for me, especially when a particular post really has got my goat, is to type my response in a word document on my computer and save it. That gives me the opportunity to wait a bit to post it, edit it, revise it, and reread it. There have been several times this has kept me from posting something that would have been hurtful to someone else or not reflect the person I am trying to be. When you disagree with a post make a point to challenge the statement instead of the person making the statement. We are here to learn from and share with each other; to pull together and support each other. If you think of a topic you would like to discuss please post it. I would love to see more discussions happening.

First topic:
Alcoholism/Addiction is it nature, nurture, or both?

My thoughts: I think nature with a little encouragement from nurture.

For the nature part: There is a strong family history of alcoholism on both sides of my family. Both of my grandfathers, 8 of 10 uncles, 1 of 2 aunts, multiple cousins, and 2 of my 3 sisters are or were alcoholics. My experience is that I have always been drawn to alcohol differently than my non alcoholic friends. When I first started drinking as a teenager, often four of us would find someone to buy us a case of Mickey’s beer. I can remember every time we would get it I would look around the car and try to determine who might not drink all their share because if they did not that would mean I could have more. I hated drinking with my sister in the car because I think she must have thought the same thing as I always had to compete with her for the extras. I also had a completely different tolerance level from the very first drink. By the age of 21 I could easily chug a fifth of whiskey and still be up walking around partying for hours. I easily could drink the boys and men under the table.

For the nurture part: The people I hung out with always tended to be drinkers, maybe I gravitated to them though because of my natural affinity for alcohol. Society seems to be quite centered around alcohol everything from tv to billboards promotes and glamorizes alcohol use. New Years Eve what do people toast with? Champagne of course. What do people have with fancy dinners? Wine of course. What do you have at a ball game? A beer of course.

So what is your experience and thoughts?

[Redmayne]

Personally, although this is a forum, definition :- a meeting for open discussion, defined by the nature of the fact that this is,
'The Sober Recovery Community', with clearly defined aims and objectives based in it's title. One would hope that any posts or threads are posted to attract constructive comment or critcism as regard the topic they address, as opposed to the originator.

Whilst I stand corrected , because as a person, I'm always open to constructive comment or criticism, on this basis I fail to understand why this forum is used to address individuals personal problems, I would have thught a therapists couch was more appropriate or worst still used as a platform to canvas and advance areas of conflict e.g. alleged attacks on the GBLTQ Community by organised religion. What any of this has got to do with sobriety in recovery escapes me when we have long used phrases like,'live and let live' , 'keep it simple' etc., etc., and are here to share our experience, strength and hope, NOT inflame individual or political conflict.

None of this is helping anyone, neither does it encourage constructive comment or criticism, much the opposite, those who found their recovery of the suggested 12 Step Programme of Alcoholics Anonymous, will more likely shrug their shoulders and walk away, whilst those others, riven with there own inner conflicts either of a personal or political nature, that has nothing to do with recovery or sobriety but everything to do with 'white knuckle sobriety' in their desire to be seen as a ,'drydrunk'. The long established problem with that is, the 'dry' soon slips away, all on it's own, so all you're left with is a drunk!

If I am wrong in all this, I'd seek clarification from those who Administrate this site as to the stated aims and objectives of SRC in its purpose of helping those like me in both their recovery and ongoing sobriety.

'I know I am not lost, because I know exactly where I am. But perhaps it is, that where I am is lost' A.A.Milne.

[nandm]

I am confused how you consider a discussion related to sharing personal experiences regarding alcoholism and whether one feels their alcoholism is nature or nurture not related to recovery or sobriety. Can you please clarify that?

Obviously rather than read the post you are replying to the name of the thread. You might try reading the actual post before passing judgements. It might help with actual discussion on the topic presented which is alcohol/addiction related.

Plus as has been stated before when you have brought this topic up and crashed threads with it this is a forum where many topics can be discussed. If you go to the mens or womens forums you will find they discuss a variety of topics often times not directly related to alcoholism/addiction.

[Redmayne]

Carl Sandburg said,' If a society (or person, my words) forgets where it comes from, it will destroy itself'. History has proved this time and time again.

Given your dictatorial stance, evidenced by your complete disregard for the maxim,'attack the arguement, not the person' in this case me, personally with your undoubted attack on my , competence in either to be able to read or write, never mind construct an intelligent response to the content of your original post. Simply because it doesn't accord with those held by yourself and your instructions to us all to withold any alternative views that don't follow you point of view. Which rather defeats the object of the exercise.

What place,'psuedo-intellectual' arguements/discussions based on,'nature v.nurture' have for anyone who has suffered as I and many others have, many of whom have died under the lash of our addiction, whether it be drugs or alcohol, defeats me. Not that there is no place for it, but when people are trying simply recover and get sober I would have thought, from personal experience, it's the last thing on their mind. Particularly when presented in this manner. It's well known, try telling an alcoholic what to do and they'll simply walk away!

Still, I take no issue with you, you're right and I'm wrong although I note that we await a reply from those who Administrate this site as to it's laid down aims and objectives,can't wait to read the bit on 'dictators'.

[nandm]

I still am confused how you consider a discussion that is directly related to alcoholism/addiction to be a topic that should not be discussed on a recovery website. Can you please explain that? I would be interested in hearing your response to to actual topic which is alcoholism/addiction nature vs nurture.

If you feel you have been attacked I do apologize as that was not my intent. I simply intended to point out that I felt you did not read the post since your response was completely out of context in regards to the original post.

At this point I am not going to respond any further to anything other than the original topic as I would like to see this thread get back on topic rather than go off on this side issue. You are very welcome to take your problems with this thread and this forum up with the administration. That person would be Morning Glory. If you feel these posts are inappropriate you can always report them via the "exclamation point" located under my avatar.

[nandm]

Redmayne, I do have one last thing to say regarding your criticism. If you are so concerned about discussing things you consider "productive" to sobriety then maybe you could help out and start some threads discussing those things rather than just attack people when they try to bring this community together and more active by starting discussions.

It is easy to criticize, divide, and try and discourage people from talking on this forum but it takes a lot of work to put the effort into something more productive by starting threads, trying to draw people in, and trying to bring people together.

[Redmayne]

1. If you look on the ,'Where are you' forums you will see a considerable number of posts instigated either by me or to which I have contributed!

Yet another unfounded and ungrounded personal attack on me, not much room for discussion hear.

This isn't going to stop, is it.

2. Pursuing the abstract theory of, 'nature v. nature', and without empirical proof, that's all it is. On that basis, I'll stick to reality, for that's where real recovery and sobriety lies, certainly not in abstract theories, there are. appreciating this is not an exact science, nothing to do with addictions, no matter what their cause or symptoms is,

a. those society generally regards as ,'alcoholics' (nurture), alcohol is an addictive drug, drink it in sufficient strength and volume there is every chance you'll become an addict, throw in other influences, lifestyle , peer pressure etc. and they'll up that risk. Much research has been done on this to vouch for it's veracity.

b. then we have those referred to as ,'real alcoholics', like me, referred to in the first line of Chapter 3, of the book,'Alcoholics Anonymous, 4th Ed., Page 30. Science has now proved that their digestive symptoms, (nature) provided in their genetic composure at birth, do not digest alcohol at the same rate as a ,'normal social ' drinker, 1oz per hour, instead the alcohol (drug) remains in their bodies,metabolising at a much slower rate, with the result it causes all the problems generally associated with alcohol dependency. Probably best described as an,'accident waiting to happen', if that person never took a drink, they'd be fine. But thee are no warning signs that might erupt in other allergies. Although in ,'The Doctor's Opinion' , in thebook,'Alcoholics Anonymous', first published he refers to a,'physical allergy' and the need for a ,'psychic change'!

Now most of those generally referred to as alcoholics, (nurture) , will with the right approach, care and where necessary treatment, (rehabilitation) respond and providing they don't return to their old habits, live sober lives.

Those, roughly 8% of the ,'alcoholic population' whoare ,'real alcoholics' will go in and out of rehabilitation facilities like revolving doors, and continue to drink, no problem. Which is where both the ,'physical allergy' and ,'psychic change' come in, as described in the ,'TheDoctor's Opinion' and the first 164 pages of the bok,'Alcoholics Anonymous',which contain the suggested programme of recovery, contained in the 12 Step Programme.

Which explains why for me, who wasone ofthose fortunmate individuals who had a ,'spiritual experience', which resulted in my alcoholism being taken from me, am a keen advocate of this path for recovery and sobriety.

Now whilst I'm not yet old enough to be wise, I am old enough to be phiosophical, and accept that others may advocate a different approach to both recovery and long term sobriety, wonderful! My problem is,along with a number of health professionals, counsellors etc., is that I've yet to see this work, that's not to say, particularly in the case of, 'real alcoholics', others yes, falling in love, a geographical move, good employment, those things that bring responsibility and restore dignity to someones life.

There's much I've left unsaid, simply to attract constructive comment or criticism, as I understand it, this is an open discussion within the parameters of the aims and objectives of,'The Sober Recovery Community' where the maxim is,'Either we all count, or no one counts!' No room for personal attacks, or sanctimonous, ego building , unless of course I'm in the wrong place, then I'll leave. No point going where you're not wanted, right!

[Redmayne]

In answer to the suggestion that I make some effort to either post threads or join in with others, I think you'll find an examination of both this and the,'Where are you?' forum there are about 100+ threads posted by me, 'Redmayne/43395' obviously then, I'm slacking, time to move on....to much time wasted living in reality rather than,'abstract theories', it's called sober, recovery, or is it?

[nandm]

Originally Posted by Redmayne

In answer to the suggestion that I make some effort to either post threads or join in with others, I think you'll find an examination of both this and the,'Where are you?' forum there are about 100+ threads posted by me, 'Redmayne/43395' obviously then, I'm slacking, time to move on....to much time wasted living in reality rather than,'abstract theories', it's called sober, recovery, or is it?

I still stand by my statement that the GLBTQ in Recovery area could use some support encouraged activity and if you are concerned about what is posted here then start some threads here, in this area. Check out my post count. I can honestly say that most of those are just replies or comments on others threads. So saying you have "100+ threads posted by me" when you only have a post count of 171 actual posts makes me question the validity of that statement.

So again I encourage you to start some threads here regarding the topics that you feel are important rather than highjack others threads, criticize others and try to discourage and intimidate people into not participating in this forum unless they comply only by what you feel is an appropriate topic for them to be posting about.

[Redmayne]

Another personal attack on my integrity compounded with unfounded and ungrounded comment, when is this going to stop??? Or are you simply one of thjose passive/aggressivepeople I hear about in the US, who simply doesn't understand the phrase,'constructive comment or criticism' I mean if you look at what you've said so far, the ony person who has hijacked your original post is you! No one else has even bothered commenting on it but you! At least I had the decency to contribute to it, no one else is bothered...

[nandm]

Oh, thank you so much for your decency....I feel so privileged to have been criticized and attacked.

Despite your attempts to keep anyone from posting anything in the GLBTQ forum that does not meet with your approval I will continue to try and bring this community together. Your attempts to discourage and disparage me from posting because you do not approve of what I say are not going to stop me from posting. It is sad though that your attacks will and have stopped others from posting and responding on this thread. I have received several private messages of encouragement and people stating they are afraid to reply on this thread for fear they will be attacked by you. I do not understand your determination to destroy this section of the forum rather than build the community up. It seems to me that it is counter productive if you are actually a part of the GLBTQ community.

I am going to put you on ignore now as I no longer have any desire to continue to deal with or read your attacks. I will continue to post what I feel like posting and if that bothers you then please feel free to report it. I do wish you the best in life and your sobriety but do have to say you might find it easier if you stopped trying to control everyone else and worked on your keeping your side of the street clean instead.

[Ghostly]

nandm -

1) There is nothing wrong with this Thread you started. I actually don't understand why there would be an issue with it at all. I appreciate your desire to get a conversation going. I have tried that as well in other areas of SR when things were kinda slow.

2) Hope it's ok if a hetro jumps in here once in a while. I sincerely mean that, if it's not cool then I will understand. Every once in a while I check out topics in here, but don't post (accept for a thread I was invited to).

With that said, curious what you mean about the nurture part. Not sure I get what you mean.

As far as the nature part...I probably tend to simplify things. Sometimes to a fault. For me, it probably is fairly simple though. I drank to escape and numb. Probably a result of years of confidence issues. Though, I am starting to realize they are some depression things going on as well. There really aren't a lot of addiction type issues to point to in my family. My dad never drank when I was growing up. Mom probably did a bit more than socially, but I don't remember there being an issue.

Not sure if what I wrote fits the topic or not.

[nandm]

Originally Posted by Ghostly

nandm -

1) There is nothing wrong with this Thread you started. I actually don't understand why there would be an issue with it at all. I appreciate your desire to get a conversation going. I have tried that as well in other areas of SR when things were kinda slow.

2) Hope it's ok if a hetro jumps in here once in a while. I sincerely mean that, if it's not cool then I will understand. Every once in a while I check out topics in here, but don't post (accept for a thread I was invited to).

Thanks. Yes, you are more than welcome to share in the discussion. I am glad to see your input.

Originally Posted by Ghostly

With that said, curious what you mean about the nurture part. Not sure I get what you mean.

I think that a better term would be do you feel environmental factors were in play with your alcoholism/addiction. Some examples might be parents having you play bartender to them when you were young; the way alcohol is portrayed in the media; peer pressure; that sort of thing.

Originally Posted by Ghostly

As far as the nature part...I probably tend to simplify things. Sometimes to a fault. For me, it probably is fairly simple though. I drank to escape and numb. Probably a result of years of confidence issues. Though, I am starting to realize they are some depression things going on as well. There really aren't a lot of addiction type issues to point to in my family. My dad never drank when I was growing up. Mom probably did a bit more than socially, but I don't remember there being an issue.

Not sure if what I wrote fits the topic or not.

Simple can sometimes be a very positive thing in recovery as I think we as alcoholics/addicts tend to over think things sometimes. I have heard others who did not have a strong family history of alcoholism/addiction that stated they struggled with confidence and depression issues and feel their drinking was an escape route or a way to numb themselves from reality and pain. Do you feel your confidence/depression problems were prior to your drinking problem then or do you feel they paralleled each other with the drinking getting worse as the confidence/depression problems worsened?

For me my depression/confidence problems started prior to my drinking. The depression of course worsened over the years as my alcoholism progressed. I find it so ironic that many of us drank to escape those feelings and the very thing we used to escape with made the problems worse and harder to deal with in the end. I am not sure how much I used the alcohol as a confidence booster though as even early in my drinking I preferred to drink alone. When I drank alone no one could judge me for how much I drank, or tell me when to stop, or cut into my alcohol supply.

Thanks for sharing I appreciate it.

[Ghostly]

Originally Posted by nandm

Do you feel your confidence/depression problems were prior to your drinking problem then or do you feel they paralleled each other with the drinking getting worse as the confidence/depression problems worsened?

For me my depression/confidence problems started prior to my drinking. The depression of course worsened over the years as my alcoholism progressed. I find it so ironic that many of us drank to escape those feelings and the very thing we used to escape with made the problems worse and harder to deal with in the end. I am not sure how much I used the alcohol as a confidence booster though as even early in my drinking I preferred to drink alone. When I drank alone no one could judge me for how much I drank, or tell me when to stop, or cut into my alcohol supply.

Oh...confidence problems have been my demon since a kid. Alcohol became a problem in my 30's, so yes, those problems proceeded my drinking.

I too drank alone, but I still got a confidence boost from it. Even alone, it let me detach from the negatives in the world, and think I could overcome problems.

I also agree with you, that, yes I drank to escape and numb the pain, but it took more alcohol to get me at a level where the pain was dulled, but all the alcohol, and feeling of despair / painful depression, would increase because of all the drinking, so I'd need more alcohol which would depress me more, so I'd need more, and my tolerance rose...and so on and so on...round and round! Uggghhhhh. The alcohol merry go round.

Anyway...good topic. Thanks.

[Redmayne]

Buddhist philosophy,suggest that you should refrain from speaking the truth when to do so would harm others, having regard to all the cicumstances on this thread I think that's perfectly good advice and intend to follow it, before which I'll make one observation.

Alcohol has never been selective about who it affects, no matter their race, class or gender, if you wish to pursue a discussion based on the premise of nature v. nurture, identifying events in individuals past that lead to problems in their mental health, e.g.depression, sexual abuse as a child, etc., there may well beacase to answer.

However the alcohol abuse can be seen as a symptom of underlying issues, the name of the disease/illness is alcohol-ISM, it's the -ISM's , i.e. life, past experiences , etc., that inrecovery, have to be addressed.

As for ,'hetro's', I quite like them, many of my friends are hetro's, whilst this may be seen as the GBLTQ forum, to deny any constructive input by them, is deny your own and others chances of recovery.

[Ghostly]

Thanks for the welcome Red.

By RED
if you wish to pursue a discussion based on the premise of nature v. nurture, identifying events in individuals past that lead to problems in their mental health, e.g.depression, sexual abuse as a child, etc., there may well beacase to answer.

However the alcohol abuse can be seen as a symptom of underlying issues, the name of the disease/illness is alcohol-ISM, it's the -ISM's , i.e. life, past experiences , etc., that inrecovery, have to be addressed.

Yes...good points. I think I have not dealt with many of my demons. So...I have, at this point, successfully achieved sobriety. However, I need to really deal with some underlying issues, to actually achieve enlightenment. So that's where I'm at...and trying to figure out how to conquer these things. Improve myself? Will that be enough? Or do I need to confront, beat, and destroy my demons to prevail? Both? I don't know at this point. Either way, I do know that I need alcohol to not be part of my equation for me to reach peace. However...in my two years of sobriety, currently, I am probably at my lowest point.

Wow...now you two, have gotten me thinking bout things.

[nandm]

You brought up a good point about confidence and depression being a part of why many drink/drug. I think that a big part of my early sobriety was finding that confidence or self esteem. I made many different attempts to get sober before I finally found what worked for me. I preface this with I am sharing my personal experience and recognize there are many different paths to sobriety. There is quite a variety of people here on this forum who have found many different ways to achieve sobriety and I encourage everyone to find the path that is right for them. AA happens to be the path that works for me so my experience is primarily based on that method.

Working through the 12 Steps of AA helped me with the confidence/esteem issue. It is funny that the hardest thing for me to do was admit defeat, admit to myself that alcohol had me beat, it was something that when I take into my body I lose control over and it winds up consuming me and my life. I say that because I did fight with confidence/esteem issues so it seems quite contradictory that I would have such a problem admitting powerlessness over something. But it was quite freeing for me once I did that and it opened the door for me to reach out and work the rest of the Steps. I was an agnostic when I came to AA and still would consider myself one so I struggled with the God concept. I was able to accept the concept of a Power Greater than myself though since I was not an atheist and I was able to move forward with the rest of the Steps. I think that in a way that acceptance was a confidence builder for me because I started to feel like I was not alone and I did have support, someone to lean on I guess would be a good way to put it. The 4th and 5th Steps were the next biggest confidence/esteem builders for me. It was freeing to finally start letting go of all that baggage I had been hiding for so long. To finally be able to feel like I could look people in the eye because I was not having to hide my secrets was quite freeing emotionally for me. Plus with having to share those secrets with someone in the 5th Step I had to trust someone and for me trust had been a very big issue. I had always felt like how could I trust others when I could not even truly trust myself.

For me though having a program of recovery has been very helpful in dealing with some of these things. I do have to say though that the program was not a fix all, I still needed and do need to seek outside help for these issues and work on them to this day. Of course, even after all this time I still feel like this is a process and I am a work in progress but I guess that is a good thing as I am still learning and growing and as long as I am still doing that I am still alive.

[Mo S]

Initially,treating my alcoholism was easy by comparison than treating the "wasim" or "ism". Little did i know that I would be working the 4th ,5th and 10th step with a therapist for 20 years lol.(yes a sponsor too) Dont give a hoot about the "nature" anymore. Sure i came from a family loaded with alcoholism. Its Alanon that healed that for me. However, there were deep dark issues that fueled my drinking. I stopped drinking and became an active member of AA but it wasnt a cure all as was said.. As you said nandm- i still had to get outside help with issues.

Now nature and nurture on mental illness...thats a whole nother topic.

[chicory]

None of this is helping anyone,

neither does it encourage constructive comment or criticism, much the opposite, those who found their recovery of the suggested 12 Step Programme of Alcoholics Anonymous, will more likely shrug their shoulders and walk away, whilst those others, riven with there own inner conflicts either of a personal or political nature, that has nothing to do with recovery or sobriety but everything to do with 'white knuckle sobriety' in their desire to be seen as a ,'drydrunk'. The long established problem with that is, the 'dry' soon slips away, all on it's own, so all you're left with is a drunk!

Redmayne, is it true that you speak for everyone? I too am going to put you on ignore, as I find it upsetting when you attack people. You are not the final word on things, nor is your opinion more"right" than Ananda's.

[Dee74]

Good topic nandm
lets get back to it

D