I know who I am.... but do you?

[louis]

I am not wanting this to get into a slanging match.... I am just asking for definitions... opinions.... feedback....

I know we have spoken about peoples genders before... but i have come across some confusion within life and this site... about peoples genders.... as they are not always black and white (as people expect).

I am transgendered and had to ask someone here recently not to call me louise (thats who they thought i was).... now they did not think they were doing anything wrong.. but i got upset and after explaining it was sorted... THIS IS NOT THE ISSUE (not for discussion)... just another reason i put this post up.

I've recently realised more and more that some people do not know about gender/sexuality etc...
I know a post was started awhile ago about the differences... but it can be difficult to explain.... i have tried... but i am not the best at explaining things so ask for help in doing this.... but please dont get too technical...

I wol like to help folk... in understanding the difference between such things as transgender... transexual.... hermaphrodite.... lesbian.... gay.... butch.... femme etc (sorry if i missed anyone)...

But as i said i am not very good with explaining (im sure this coulda been said in 2 lines)

I hope i havent offended anyone with this post... that is not my intention... education is....

Thankyou in advance.... i will recieve alot of learning too im sure (if anyone posts)

be well
louis

Could someone help with explaining this please?

[freya]

So, Louis, lookin' to "stir the pot" a bit I see. (Actually, I hate that phrase "stir the pot" but it does seem to be popular here on SR.)

Anyways, I started that other thread:

http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...g-helpful.html

......and I think really that these are issues, questions, concepts that it really is not possible to just throw out there with no introduction/guidelines/clearly defined terms etc..... and then reasonably expect to get much other than confusion,frustration, misunderstanding and discord going. Actually, as someone who has taught Sex and Gender Studies on the college level, I think pretty much about a semester's worth of "Intro to Sex and Gender Theory" is like the very minimum needed in order for folks to be able to get a handle on this stuff and begin to think about it effectively and meaningfully and/or discuss it rationally and in any kind of way that might be helpful and make mutual sense. (.....and I'm actually dealing with this in a BIG way in RL right now......but I'll have to post more about that later... This weekend is super-busy and I am friggin' exhausted and I have more than enough sex-and-gender chaos going on right now in my living room between my 2 sons who are home right now to celebrate my b'day.)

Anyways, I do hope you get what you need/want from this thread -- and I will be back......

Good to see you around!

freya

P.S. Just off the top of my head I will say that it is unreasonable for anyone to expect that anyone else truly knows "who he/she is" unless he/she takes the time and puts forth the effort to share deeply and honestly about him/herself. It's not other people's job to know/figure out/mind-read what one fails to share. And, if one's experience and self-concept/perception is radically outside the mainstream, one probably needs to expect to do extra sharing and extra educating if one truly "desires to be known."

P.P.S....and just to "stir the pot" even a but more: If anyone's interested, check out the tophotbutches.com website. Rachel Maddow as #!???????????? What a friggin' joke!!!!........but some of the others -----very butch and very, very hot! Yum!

[Bamboozle]

I'm back!



I only have my own experience to relate.

Recently I've been confused about who I am. The longer I'm sober the more I think about my identity.

Being different where I live is practically a curse. People are encouraged very strongly to go with the status quo or face isolation and rejection. I'm building confidence by the day...and if I can make it here where I live as I truly am and embrace it, then I can make it anywhere in the U.S. My goal is to just be who I am always wherever I am.




I feel like I'm both male and female. I like to say that I have the woman parts and I bleed every month...but that's about it.

At times I feel more male...at times more female. I haven't paid enough attention to note why/when/how this happens...it just does. Sometimes I feel like I’m both at once. I'm like a chameleon.


Lately I’ve been mad because I wasn’t born male…but now I’m not so sure that’s why I’m mad. I know I’ve been thinking way too much about this…and the more I think about it the more my head spins.

I’m not totally male, I’m not totally female…I don’t think the word androgynous fits…I’m not exactly butch…I’m not feminine….I’m……..me.

[freya]

So here's my (most pressing) current RL "drama" with these issues:

Most of you know that, at the beginning of June, I spoke at a "Women in Recovery" event. I was the main Al Anon speaker, and I did a workshop -- with an AA co-presenter -- on "Sex in Recovery."

At one point in the workshop, the conversation got onto how to get "men" to talk honestly and openly about their needs and feelings. And, of course, within a few moments, the straight participants started down the "mnn bashing" road. I really did not want us to go there (so pointless, so ineffective, so petty...such a friggin' total waste of time), so I interrupted the conversation, pointed out what was happening, why it wasn't healthy or helpful, and re-directed the topic in a more promising direction.

Now obviously, the participants (mostly straight women from small town and rural central NY), when talking about "men" meant "bio-men," or "men-born-male," but when I was speaking I clearly indicated that I was referring to all masculine-energied people -- because my partner (a butch) has many of the same difficulties/handicaps in this area as "men" do.

So anyways, the entire detour in the conversation took, maybe, 1.5 - 2 minutes. And then we were back onto a more constructive road again.

So, fast-forward about 2 weeks. I get phone call from a woman who had been at the workshop (can't exactly put a face to her name because there were quite a few women there). She had gotten my number from one the event's organizers. After the obligatory introductions and pleasantries, she says to me (and this is pretty much a direct quote): "You said something about your partner..uh...being "butch"...........That means she's like a man to you, right?"

......and I am like absolutely, totally speechless...because, really, how in the h*ll is one going to answer that question in any way that is possibly truthful and accurate and understandable to anyone who has so little knowledge of what she's really getting into that she would phrase the question like that????????

So, there's like all these possible answers/responses running through my mind ("Gee, I think there's someone at the door -- I've got to go" being at the top of the list!!!!) because, like I said earlier, she clearly needs, at the very minimum, a semester's worth of Intro to Gender Studies before she might possibly even be able to begin to understand my authentic "true" answer.

But, I am pretty good under pressure, so what I said was: "That's actually a very, very complicated question with a very, very complicated 'true' answer. So maybe it would be best if I first find out why you're asking it?"

...and the flood-gates open: miserable marriage with the only guy she's ever dated or had sex with. And she has no real interest in having sex anyways. The only time she has ever felt like she was really attracted to anyone "the way people like on TV or in the movies get attracted to each other" is a few times in her life when she's been around a few women who were 'like men." Of course, having lived all of her life in friggin' middle-of-nowhere rural NY, it never occurred to her that that might mean she was actually attracted to masculine-energied females. (..and, obviously, a lot of that has just been written in my language, not hers...because she is totally lacking in language to talk about any of this.)

And she wants my help to figure out what all of this means!!!!!

......And I want to disappear off the face of the earth.....because even though 1) I would like to be able to help her, and 2 ) I am perfectly suited to being able to help her, we are talking pretty much about the total re-education of as 45 year old woman here. And that is a big job, a complicated job, and a hugely intimidating/humbling responsibility.

But OK....I chose to go out to rural central NY and do this thing (the original Women's event). I chose, as always, to be absolutely "out," honest, and authentic in the doing of it. I chose to do it knowing perfectly well that it was/is 12th Step work and that, as such, there was the obvious potential for it to lead to further 12th Step work if I did it well. And, I have committed 101% to "going where my HP leads me."

So, I told her the truth: " I know it took a lot of guts for you to call me. It's probably taking a lot of guts for you to even start thinking about working on this stuff. And yeah, I can probably help you...I have the background, the education and the personal experience......but you need to understand that it's going to be a lot of work and there are going to be some things you will need to learn/understand before we can even talk together in ways that are going to be mutually comprehensible. If you really want to pursue this with me....basically, finding out who you are as regards sex and gender -- and if you really want my help, then I'm going to need for you to get a book (The Persistent Desire -- a series of essay on lesbian gender expression and dynamic written by women who lived this life in the mid-20th century) and we can read it together and use it as a starting point for teaching and learning."

And, seriously, I figured she probably was not going to be willing to do that -- or able to foolow-thgouh with it even if she wanted to -- and I didn't hear fro her for over 2 weeks. Then last week she called, and she had gotten the book.

So, here we go.........

"The will of God will never lead you where the grace of God will not protect you."

freya

[sct]

In general... I risk looking like a jackass and just ask people what they prefer to be called and stick with that. If you're Louis-- then you're Louis.
Same with a friend of mine who does drag, his response was- whatever clothes he's wearing, is the pronoun preferred. In drag = "she" in his "boy clothes" = "he."

... Boy clothes is his word.

Honestly... while I understand the struggle with identity, I'm not a terribly politically correct person. (Actually that's part of why I tend to hang around other boards more than SR... other places let me swear.) But I do try to at least be polite so long as people aren't waving issues in my face. Hence the just asking what they prefer.

[louis]

I keep deleting my post....
thankyou for your replies.... im not wording what i mean very well
I really appreciate the time you took and what you all had to say

be well
louis

[bjork]

Originally Posted by louis

i have come across some confusion within life and this site... about peoples genders.... as they are not always black and white (as people expect).

I wol like to help folk... in understanding the difference between such things as transgender... transexual.... hermaphrodite.... lesbian.... gay.... butch.... femme etc (sorry if i missed anyone)...

Could someone help with explaining this please?

I know a lot of people get caught up in wording of these things and could argue any definition you list. Anyhow, I know that butchfemme has a short list of definitions to assist within lesbian terminology used to ID.

Maybe we could compile a reference of terms used? I'll get us started.

Compliments of Butchfemme:


(As always, our language has it's limits...so mileage may vary!)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Old-school, or classic butch-femme--- Refers historically to the well-documented Butch-Femme community that organized in the 50's. Can also refer to modern day Butches and Femmes who appreciate an/or emulate many of the values from an era when the roles in our community were more clearly defined.

Power Femme--- Femme who revels in the power, strength, and mystique of her femininity.

Femme top, Femme bottom, Butch top, or Butch bottom--- Didja think all S/M Femmes were bottoms? A Butch bottom might express masculinity and strength through endurance, while a Femme top might express her power through femininity.

Stud And Lady--- Old school term for Butch-Femme. Usage is still prevalent in Black lesbian culture.

High Femme--- Exhibits hyper-femininity which may manifest itself outwardly in appearance, and inwardly as a a celebration of femininity.

Packing---Butch wearing a "c*ck" under clothing. This could be a silicone or rubber model readily used for f*ck**g, or a realistically flaccid prothesis which can either be purchased or home-made.

Daddy, grrl, or daddy/grrl--- Dynamic in some butch-femme relationships where the Butch takes over the parental or care-taking role, either 24-7, or as occasional age play. Sexually, Daddy/Grrl can be played out in a incestous or S/M fashion where Daddy is irresponsibly "wicked", or Daddy might be emotionally responsible for nurturing and loving the grrl. This particular dynamic can allow Femmes to freely explore being bratty, playful, independent, innocent, or submissive, etc... and perhaps in some instances, both partners can confront issues surrounding abuse.

Mommy/Boy--- Rarely discussed dynamic which exists in some Butch-Femme relationships where the Femme takes on the parental role, either 24-7, or as occasional age play. The Mommy may be loving, or in an S/M context, very demanding. This dynamic an allow the Butch to be adored or punished, be child-like, innocent, boyishly devilish, or rebellious, ect.

Stone Femme--- Can define a Femme who is sexually untouchable, a Femme who is "very" femme, a Femme top, or a Femme who is partnered with or attracted to very masculine/stone Butches. The way to correctly spell "stone Femme" is with two words. Online usage often runs the words together because early majordomo-based mailing lists required one word titles back in the day.

Stone Butch--- Usually means a hard Butch who prefers not to be touched by a partner sexually at all, or in any way that is feminizing. Stone can also mean "very", as in "very butch" and proud of it. The word "stone Butch" is spelled with two words.

Kiki---A somewhat outdated term for a Butch/Femme switch.

Polyamorous--- Having pre-negotiated relationships with multiple partners. The opposite of monogamy.

FTM, F2M, or TS--- Female to Male transexual. The transition usually involves taking male hormones, sometimes includes top surgery, but doesn't always indicate bottom surgery. Many feel bottom surgery for F2Ms at this time is not a completely successful resolution. Some Butches may take testosterone and have top surgery, yet don't consider themselves transexual, or even male-identified.

TG---Transgendered. Many believe that Butches transgress the gender of "woman" or blur traditional gender to such a degree that they are transgendered. Others believe Butch is clearly a gender of it's own.

Hir, hym, s/he--- Various masculine pronouns for Butches. Sometimes Butches online will also call one another "bro" or use traditional male pronouns, much in the same way that queens call one another "she". Such bending of our limited language isn't always politically motivated, but often the practice is simply employed as a tidy way of differentiating between the Butches and Femmes online.

Het queer--- Controversial phrase used to describe how the power dynamics and polarity of B-F sexuality are closer to heterosexuality than homosexuality.

Fag Butch--- Butch into other butches or FTMs; not usually meant as a derogatory term, although some old-school butches may express discomfort with Butch-on-Butch sexuality.

Lipstick lesbian---Media term used to describe feminine lesbians, not normally used to indicate Femmes.

Fem---Seldom used variation of Femme.

Andro dyke--- Mainstream lesbian style that is deliberately void of either masculinity or femininity, or an androgenous combination of both gender expressions, each crossing the other out. Androgeny can find roots in politics, having originated from feminist beliefs of the 70's.

Inner f*gg*t--- Humorous way to explain a dandy Butch who is fastiduous about style, or a Butch who (although masculine) exhibits other traits common to gay boy, such as a love of theatre or a flair for design.

Baby Butch or baby Femme--- Newly-out Butch or Femme, not always related to age.

Binary gender system--- Concept that there are two genders: man and woman. Many believe that Butch and Femme disprove the concept of a binary gender system. Some Butches and Femmes claim rights to a third gender.

Saturday night Butch--- Expression used to describe lesbians who only "butch-out" at the bar on weekends.

Biology vs. Destiny--- Very topical issue in Butch-femme discussion groups. It's important to distinguish between sex (male/female), gender identity (butch/femme/man/woman/queen, etc), and gender expression (masculine/feminine). Since these three things aren't dependent and each other, the safest way to navigate is to assume nothing!

Boi-- In S/M circles, this means a Butch who is a bottom. The term has been adapted by the Butch-Femme community to describe a Butch who is not a Daddy, or to express affection toward masculine females or Butches.

[freya]

So, louis, how about you just try to say whatever it is you need to say as best you can -- indicating where you're having trouble and/or where it's not "sounding" right to you -- and we can take it from there????

Sometimes it's easier to do it that way, than to wait until you can say it "perfectly" -- in which case you probably wouldn't have bothered to start this thread, right? (That's the writing teacher in me coming out there -- which probably means some codependency, too, but what the heck!)

freya

[louis]

Thanks freya

As you know i have been really struggling to write this and i was speaking to mattcake too today.... he said pretty much as you said here

Right:

When recently someone asked me if i was male or female.... i said i am transgendered.... (i dont like deceiving people).... I feel male but have a female body....
I find it hard on here because if people want to meet... i think its only fair that they know who they are meeting... anyway.... it wasn't til afew days later when i was speaking to this person again and they were asking me questions that i realised they thought i was born hermaphrodite...

I explained the differences that i thought i knew...

Transgendered: in me is i am in the wrong body... basically i am in a female body... but i am male.... but even though i am in the wrong body i am too scared to change the body i have.

and

Hermaphrodite: I thought was a person born with both genitalia... and that generally when they are babies there parents get to choose what gender they want them to become.... and from what i have known from talking to someone i met before is quite alot of the time... the parents have made the wrong choice.

So i got to thinking.... maybe i am not explaining it right or that it would be good here if there were a list defining each "pigeon holed" name/title people used..
I know most of the time it is peoples own personal definitions they use... and that it takes along time to learn this.... but most people dont have that time to learn....

Also i found out recently that i maybe using the wrong "title" for me and maybe am not transgendered.... but transexual....

If i dont understand and get it right.... how do we expect other people to get it right and understand?

thankyou

[evmdimples]

Here's my personal experience on how people I've known identify:

I (female) once dated a man who felt he was a woman inside; he identified as a lesbian, I identify him as my first lesbian lover.

I had a trans (m2f) friend who identified as a transgendered female of the lesbian persuasion.

I had a trans (m2f) friend. She identified as a transgendered bisexual woman.

I recently met a trans (m2f) woman. She remains married to her wife of 42 years and identifies as a transgendered lesbian.

I also recently met another trans (m2f) woman. She also remains married to her wife of many years. She identifies as a transgendered woman; she presents herself as a woman in certain circles and as a man in others (business circles).

And last but not least, anybody remember Dr. Frankenfurter, who identified as a transexual from Transylvania? He was bisexual. Sorry, I had to mention him in this discussion. I love the Rocky Horror Picture Show!

I guess it all boils down to what is comfortable to you and only you.

[freya]

louis:

You are to be commended for your openness, honesty and commitment to self-awareness -- both here and in your earlier conversations that lead to you starting this thread. Really. That's good stuff, man!

What you have said seems pretty clear to me....(unless of course, it's so unclear that I am totally misunderstanding it....which, based on what you've said here and in PMs, I don't think is the case.)

Like I said earlier: It sounds like you are both transsexual (experiencing yourself as male although born into a female body) and transgendered (authentic gender expression is, for you, masculine, which is at odds with social/cultural expectations that you be a "woman" and express in a feminine manner.)

It is true that many, many people either confuse or totally conflate the terms "transgendered" and "transsexual." (Well, most people confuse and/or conflate the terms "sex" and "gender" period, so that's not surprising. But it's also very problematic because, on a very fundamental level, it perpetuates and reinforces the often unacknowledged and even more often unquestioned assumption that biological sex does and should determine gender identity and expression and sexual orientation.

freya

[utopia]

i think theres often going to be ignorance and misconception about the issue... and yet do admire your desire to edcuate.....i gained much insight from a show on oprah. i understand some people like cross dressing and other people feel they are not the gender they feel they should be and that its not usaly about sexual orientation. im a gay male but i have at times in the past wished i was a female so i could share in the dreams of culture and status quo like marriage and be accepted for who i am and feel belonging....but after some recovery Ive found that i have reclaimed my own feelings of self-respect and manhood in being a man instead of letting my culture tell me im not a man for being expressive or gay or for showing softness. I do sometimes wonder what role gender plays in identity finding and how much of trans issues are actually being a man or woman physically or how much is being the IDEA of a woman/man psychologically.

I don’t fully understand why others want to have operations and so on and i cant say i would like to feel that i needed to alter my gender but i accept that others are not me and their feelings are valid to them so I feel they deserve to be respected and are equal to me as its not really “my” business anyway if they want their body to be female or male.

[louis]

Thanks for sharing your personal experiences.... i appreciate that...

Originally Posted by evmdimples

And last but not least, anybody remember Dr. Frankenfurter, who identified as a transexual from Transylvania? He was bisexual. Sorry, I had to mention him in this discussion. I love the Rocky Horror Picture Show!

Thanks for this too lol..... I also love the film!!!!

I guess it all boils down to what is comfortable to you and only you.

[louis]

Originally Posted by freya

louis:

What you have said seems pretty clear to me....(unless of course, it's so unclear that I am totally misunderstanding it....which, based on what you've said here and in PMs, I don't think is the case.)

No... You got me right.... and thanks for taking the time to go through things with me freya.... here and when i PM you... i really appreciate that

Like I said earlier: It sounds like you are both transsexual (experiencing yourself as male although born into a female body) and transgendered (authentic gender expression is, for you, masculine, which is at odds with social/cultural expectations that you be a "woman" and express in a feminine manner.)

Right.... im gonna see if my mind has got this...
bugger... had this last night.... shoulda wrote it then

Transsexual: is how i feel?
Transgendered: is how i act?

Sorry.... i maybe nearly getting there... and please dont sigh

[freya]

Originally Posted by louis

Transsexual: is how i feel?
Transgendered: is how i act?

Sorry.... i maybe nearly getting there... and please dont sigh

Try thinking of it like this:

First, assume that "trans" = "crossing," or "changing," (like in "transvestite," which = "cross-dresser" or "changer of vestments").

Then:

Sex = the actual physical body you have.

So, "transsexual" = "crossing sexes" (or "changing sex"), and someone would be "transsexual" if s/he was biologically female, but experienced hir body as male and/or felt that s/he should have been born male and wanted to be male (and all of this totally regardless to hir gender expression or identification or hir sexual orientation or expression).

Gender = how you act/express/present and how you ID.

So, "transgendered" = "crossing genders" (or "changing genders"), and someone would be transgendered if s/he, as a biological female raised to be (and assumed to be) "feminine" and to self-ID as a "woman" instead behaves more in a masculine manner and/or self-IDs as a "man."

Obviously, the majority of transsexual people are also transgendered -- but that is not necessarily the case.

As I've been writing this, it occured to me to wonder if perhaps, for you loius, as a transsexual and transgendered person, part of the difficulty you're having might be that you might not be experiencing any of this as any kind of "change" or "crossing." Because, let's face it, this is who you are and who you always have been in some sense and to some extent. What is changing, for you, is your awareness and your desire to "put the 'right' name to" who and what you are. So, I'm wondering if maybe the whole "trans" thing might be what's causing your confusion as opposed to the whole sex-vs-gender thing..........does that make any sense whatsoever??????

In other words, you -- in your very existence, in the very fact of you're being who you are -- explode the binary assumptions on which most of our culture's language and thinking about this depends, so, it's kinda not very surprising that you would have 'trouble" relating to the available cultural language.

But, the "positive" thing about that is, obviously, if one looks at it from a recovery perspective, that is very clearly really the culture's problem -- not yours. Though, of course, I do understand that it's gotta feel like yours!

freya

[louis]

Originally Posted by freya

Try thinking of it like this:

As I've been writing this, it occured to me to wonder if perhaps, for you loius, as a transsexual and transgendered person, part of the difficulty you're having might be that you might not be experiencing any of this as any kind of "change" or "crossing." Because, let's face it, this is who you are and who you always have been in some sense and to some extent. What is changing, for you, is your awareness and your desire to "put the 'right' name to" who and what you are. So, I'm wondering if maybe the whole "trans" thing might be what's causing your confusion as opposed to the whole sex-vs-gender thing..........does that make any sense whatsoever??????

In other words, you -- in your very existence, in the very fact of you're being who you are -- explode the binary assumptions on which most of our culture's language and thinking about this depends, so, it's kinda not very surprising that you would have 'trouble" relating to the available cultural language.

THATS IT!!!!!!!!

I am not going through a change.... or crossing anything... I am just me.... I have always been this way.... soooooo who am i? To you?

But, the "positive" thing about that is, obviously, if one looks at it from a recovery perspective, that is very clearly really the culture's problem -- not yours. Though, of course, I do understand that it's gotta feel like yours!

freya

I guess i should change this thread to....
I dont know who i am.... do you? lol

be well
louis

[freya]

Originally Posted by louis

soooooo who am i? To you?

....how about: a young* trans-guy who's doing some really great, truly courageous, whole-life recovery work??????

Sounds about right to me!

freya

(* I don't actually know how "young"....but probably younger than me!)

[sct]

soooooo who am i? To you?

Louis. Just... a guy.

[louis]

freya and sct

Thankyou for seeing me!!!!!!!

louis

[JJB]

Ok so I was the idiot who didn't understand what transgendered meant

So i've also learnt a lot from reading all your answers-to be honest I had to read them several times over before i could really understand .
Freya all you say about sex and gender is absolutely fascinating but if i've never heard of this before it's because you're absolutely right when you say:

"I think pretty much about a semester's worth of "Intro to Sex and Gender Theory" is like the very minimum needed in order for folks to be able to get a handle on this stuff and begin to think about it effectively and meaningfully and/or discuss it rationally and in any kind of way that might be helpful and make mutual sense."

And again freya you've hit it right on the head when you say:

"In other words, you -- in your very existence, in the very fact of you're being who you are -- explode the binary assumptions on which most of our culture's language and thinking about this depends, so, it's kinda not very surprising that you would have 'trouble" relating to the available cultural language."

We make too many presumptions in life about other people and you're right we can't just fit everybody into "male" and "female"
Anyway biologically aren't we all both male and female or am I showing my ignorance yet again? that's what i seem to remember reading when i first started to learn about "sex " when I was very young.


Anyway my friend louis you're you and I think you're wonderful -your honesty and frankness is helpful to us all!

(and thanks for explaining all these things to me)