LGBT AA meetings, what are they like?

[HuskyPup]

Been wanting some person to person support in terms of quitting drinking for a while now, but too scared to go to AA.

Has anyone ever been to a gay/lesbian AA meeting? There is one here, but I was wondering what I might expect. I’ve posted some of these concerns on other threads, but I was wondering how a gay/lesbian meeting might affect the following concerns, what kind of ‘fit’ it would be:

I’ve had a few experiences with AA, all online, and all bad! I don’t much care for the steps, or the big book, or found them very useful. I've never been able to wrap my mind around AA due to the book/steps, the way God turns up so much. Not to mention, it seems so guilt based, making all these lists about what you did wrong, as opposed to lists of what you did right, or what you did in-between right and wrong. I just didn’t get it, it all seemed based on a very traditional Judeo-Christian worldview, that I found it hard to even approach.

I tried once what somebody said, black out the parts that did not help, and most of the book was like that: gone. It seemed more like the structure that I had a problem with, not the parts. It seemed impossible to take what I wanted and leave the rest without the whole structure collapsing, if I can use a metaphor.

I’m also not religious in any real sense; I tend to have a vague worship of nature, of foxes, wolves and certain animals, but not in such a way that they are seen as ‘powers’ that have any ability to meddle in human affairs.

Also, I don’t like the idea that we are ‘defective’, it seems a counterproductive notion, and closely allied with Christianity’s notion of original sin.

Well, hoping to hear some input. I have looked at a version of the steps called the spiral steps that seems more workable…….they are like this:

Spiral Steps

1. We admitted that we had a problem and made the decision to reclaim our lives.

2. We came to believe that there was hope for healing, health and balance.

3. We now honor our connection with the divine, as we understand it, and we accept the process of change.

4. We make a searching, fearless and honest inventory of our behavior and beliefs. We consider their effect on our physical, mental, emotional and spiritual selves and their impact on our relations with others.

5. We admit to ourselves and to another human being what is both healthy and unhealthy in our lives and we make a daily commitment to heal ourselves in body, mind and spirit.

6. We are willing to seek our Highest Good and to grow both spiritually and emotionally.

7. We let go of dysfunctional thoughts and behaviors and we consciously welcome joy, love and peace into our lives.

8. We make a list of all beings we have harmed, including ourselves, and we become willing to make amends to them all.

9. We work to restore balance in our lives. We make direct amends to others wherever possible and we value and care for ourselves.

10. We continue to take personal inventory and promptly acknowledge both our mistakes and our achievements whenever they occur.

11. We continue to grow in compassion, strength and understanding. We learn to celebrate our lives and our connection to all living things.

12. Having had a spiritual and emotional awakening, we work to help others along the path and we practice these principles in all our affairs.

13. We seek to find our calling and to develop the will and the wisdom to follow it.




I think I could live better with a version like this, just wondering how amenable AAers are to such things, or if they wig out and start thumping the big book.

Again, hope to get some input,

HP

[freya]

Well, you know, logically speaking, anything or anyone that/who is not defective in some sense would, by definition, be perfect.

Personally, I don't know anyone who is perfect (and I know quite a few people)....and I most certainly would not consider the idea of suicide on the installment plan known as alcoholism to be at all compatible with human perfection....

....and, even if it were, why would anyone who was perfect be interested in any kind of recovery program....or even feel the need for making any kind of personal changes whatsoever????????

Something is not quite making sense to me here.

Are you sure you don't have the idea that we all have character defects confused with the concept of "original sin"??????

But anyways, moving on to the actual question:

I'm not AA; I'm Al Anon. But I do, obviously, work a 12 Step program, and I do attend GLBT AA meetings.

First off, anyone can attend any open AA meeting. So, if you want to attend AA meetings, GLBT or otherwise, go ahead.

However, in my personal opinion, attending AA meetings -- or any kind of traditional 12 Step meeting -- just for "support," while "not really caring for the Steps or the book" strikes me as rather ego-centric and kind of insulting to the people who are actually there to work the AA program.

I mean, how would it sound if I were to say I wanted to attend the Baptist church down the street in the hopes of getting support from the people there, even though I have already decided that I don’t care for the teaching of Jesus Christ or believe in The Bible?????

What kind of welcome could I realistically expect to receive under those circumstances, and whose "fault" would it be if I received just exactly that "welcome"?

What would it really say about me if I tried to enter any pre-existing group of people looking to get something from those people, but at the same time I had already decided that I don't want or value whatever the common bond is that those people share? What, really, is the difference between behaving like this and showing up at the neighborhood bridge club with the idea that I am going to get all those people to play euchre with me because I don't happen to like bridge?

As far as I can tell, that kind of behavior would be just totally self-centered and disrespectful……almost to the point of being delusional....Unless, of course, it was my true goal to deliberately set myself up with an excuse to cop a resentment against those people....in which case my behavior would be self-centered, disrespectful, manipulative and dishonest....but probably not delusional.

Now, on the other side, I do find most AA meetings in my area – and this is not true everywhere or even of all meetings in my area – are very tolerant of newcomers with “baditudes” -- of whatever kind. But that is the case because most people around here seem to be willing to operate on the hope that if that new person sticks around long enough, he/she will actually lose the baditude and become open and willing to work an AA program.

freya

[utopia]

Hi HuskyPup!

For me, i think ts up to you taking what you like and leaving the rest. noone is an expert/professional so i can only talk for me. i go to a GLBT alanon meeting and have gone to GLBT aa/alanon meeting when i went to a conference/forum one year. I go for me and im the expert of my life but i do need the help and support of others. im agnostic and i dont listen to people who tell me the way to live. i include other things aside from teh 12 steps as nothing has a monopoly on "god' etc

when i worked the steps first time round i was encouraged to seek professional help too its just that wheni m at alanon or etc i speak how alanon has helped me and how those steps and tools help me. its none of my business how others work the program but i do find that following the suggested things has helped and meetings on traditions etc have helped me hugely. i also talk to the members who i find im comfortable with. i have met some who have been minding my business etc but ive heard what you find in recovery rooms youll find outside, its just that ive found recovery has a frame of tools to use to get through those conflicts.

i think you can do whatever you want.

gay meetings for me have been a good focus for a particular area of my recovery and general healing but going to other meetings to is encouraged and helped me move through the effects of having grown up in an alcoholic home.

[HuskyPup]

Freya, thanks for clearing a few thing up. I don’t think LGBT AA is the place for me. I do think you’ve gone a bit far in calling such a person as me ego-centric just because I’m not in total agreement with ‘the program’, this is just what I feared about AA, and you have confirmed my worst fears. I proposed the spiral steps as a way I might be better able to approach the program, but you totally ignored that part. I was not going to go in with a bad attitude, but go in and ask how I might reconfigure things for them to work better in my own situation. That’s all. I feel like you jumped all over me, without even knowing me, and that’s what I fear about AA: replies like yours.

Utopia, thanks, I would like to seek professional help, wish I had the cash. I’m, less and less sure about AA…..maybe I will try the agnostic meeting, but after reading the first reply here, I’, not sure AA is at all a good fit, yet there seems nothing else out there for face to face support in my area.

HP

[otterbearcat]

Are there any SMART meetings in your area?

[HuskyPup]

Originally Posted by otterbearcat

Are there any SMART meetings in your area?

On Mon and Tues night, but I work those days, 3 to midnight, the meetings are at 7PM or so. This is a big problem with meetings......when I get out of work, at arounf midnight to one AM, it is too late to find one. That leaves the weekend, for now.

SP

[Bamboozle]

Originally Posted by HuskyPup

it seems so guilt based, making all these lists about what you did wrong, as opposed to lists of what you did right, or what you did in-between right and wrong. I just didn’t get it, it all seemed based on a very traditional Judeo-Christian worldview, that I found it hard to even approach.

I completely get this. When I began therapy my therapist kept suggesting AA. I explained why it would not work for me at all and she finally stopped pushing me to do it.



I was going to suggest SMART, too, Husky. I hope you can find some meetings that fit your schedule.


I've done quite well with therapy, meds for depression and things such as photography (and now animation! Woo hoo!).

I find that focusing on the negative aspects of my life does not help at all. I see no point in dredging up and focusing on the past. I spent far too much time doing that for much of my life (which is how I got into this mess).


For what it’s worth I think the spiral steps are more palatable.

Keep searching for people who are open-minded enough to know that when it comes to recovery one-size-does-not-fit-all.

I hope you can find a supportive group to connect with.

[freya]

Originally Posted by HuskyPup

I do think you’ve gone a bit far in calling such a person as me ego-centric just because I’m not in total agreement with ‘the program’, I proposed the spiral steps as a way I might be better able to approach the program, but you totally ignored that part. HP

HuskyPup: If you had actually read what I wrote carefully, you would see that I made no judgment either way about your apparent "gripes" with AA. What I was commenting about was the idea that one would seek to enter a group the philosophy of which one had already decided one did not agree with and expect to get "support" from those people as a group for one's decision to pursue and/or efforts at pusuing an alternative philosophy. In all honesty, it makes no difference to me if the group is one I personally like / agree with / participate in or not. To me it is the expectation that one might somehow be entitled to the supportive energy of people whom one does not oneself agree with or support that is a problem.

I mean, like I said earlier, what would you really think if I said I was going to go to the Baptist church down the street to try to get support from the people there for my converting to Islam? Would you really say: "Oh gee, freya, great idea. I'm sure those people will open their arms to you and give you all the support you want!", or would it be more like: "Sh*t, frey, are you out of your f*cking mind? The last thing those people are going to give their energy to is someone willfully rejecting Jesus Christ!"?????

In my opinion, going to a Baptist Church expecting that kind of support would be a highly questionable thing for me to do -- In fact, assuming I was not out-and-out insane, it would be ego-centric and disrespectful. And my saying so does not mean that there is anything wrong with the Baptist faith or with the Islamic faith or that I think one is necessarily, intrinsically, and absolutely "better" than the other.

As for your "Spiral Steps," I didn't address them because they have nothing to do with AA, GLBT or otherwise......and I was under the impression that your primary question here is about whether or not it would be a good idea for you to try to attend GLBT AA meetings for support while choosing to reject the AA program. Also, I personally have not had any reason to explore any of the many derivative sets of "Steps" written to accommodate various people's "issues" with the 12 Steps, because the 12 Steps are working very well for me just as they are.

Clearly, you can work whatever Steps you want -- or no Steps at all. Whatever path you choose, I hope it leads you to health and happiness, and I hope you find good support from people who choose to walk a similar path. My point is simply that it most likely is not a real brilliant idea to go looking for Koran lessons at the Baptist Church or Bible study at the Mosque, and that, if one chooses to publically solicit comment on one's desire to do so, one might reasonably expect to have one's motives -- or possibly even one's sanity -- questioned.

freya

[Bamboozle]

Hmm...I thought the only requirement for those in AA is a desire to stop drinking.

[freya]

Originally Posted by Bamboozle

Hmm...I thought the only requirement for those in AA is a desire to stop drinking.

It is......but there's a huge difference between asking:

"Can I attend and be a member?" (The answer: Of course...and I actually already acknowledged that in my first post.)

and.....

"If I attend while blatantly rejecting the Program, will I get the kind of help and support I want in working some alternative program of my own choosing?" (My answer: Probably not a great plan.)

Please don't tell me you don't see any difference between those 2 questions!

freya

[Bamboozle]

Here's the question:

Originally Posted by HuskyPup

Has anyone ever been to a gay/lesbian AA meeting?

...and to elaborate on the question Husky asked:

Originally Posted by HuskyPup

I was wondering how a gay/lesbian meeting might affect the following concerns, what kind of ‘fit’ it would be:

And there's this:

Originally Posted by HuskyPup

I think I could live better with a version like this [spiral steps], just wondering how amenable AAers are to such things, or if they wig out and start thumping the big book.

Seems to me Husky was looking for a way to make this work given that it is not possible at the current time for him to attend an alternative to AA.

Originally Posted by freya

However, in my personal opinion, attending AA meetings -- or any kind of traditional 12 Step meeting -- just for "support," while "not really caring for the Steps or the book" strikes me as rather ego-centric and kind of insulting to the people who are actually there to work the AA program.

Originally Posted by freya

"Can I attend and be a member?" (The answer: Of course...and I actually already acknowledged that in my first post.)

and.....

"If I attend while blatantly rejecting the Program, will I get the kind of help and support I want in working some alternative program of my own choosing?" (My answer: Probably not a great plan.)

Anyone can have the desire to stop drinking yet reject all/most/some of the 12 step program. If sitting in AA groups and not doing the 12 steps can help a person…why not do it? The last thing I’d be worrying about is offending someone’s sensibilities about something that has nothing to do with the “offended” person’s own recovery. As long as a person joins AA and does not bash the other members or criticize them for their program, why should anyone care about a member who doesn’t want to do the steps? Shouldn’t those folks worry about their own respective recoveries?

I could understand folks getting upset if people refused to do the steps if the steps were actually required, but as I understand it the steps are not a requirement.

Husky is reaching out for help. People with alcohol addiction need all the support they can get. I’ve been told by countless folks that I don’t have to do anything if I go. If I wanted to, I could come in late and leave early and not speak to anyone. Everyone who has tried to convince me to go to AA has done so with the intention of helping. I have addressed to those people the same concerns that Husky has, yet the majority of them tell me I’m still welcome despite my reservations.

Freya, I know what you write is your opinion, but you have a knack for coming off as extremely abrasive. That’s your prerogative, but I hope you consider using more tact in your future posts.

[HuskyPup]

Freya, I am sorry you seem so bitter.

So you say my spiral steps have nothing to do with AA. All I was asking if it would be OK to discuss them at a meeting, as they are derived from the 12 steps, and are, in fact, one person's way of looking at them.

I have been told that there is a great diversity within AA, and some meetings don’t even use the steps or the big book. That is all. I don't see where that is so insulting. Your likening AA to a Baptist Church (with me storming in as the angry atheist, no less) seems a bit odd, as there are many people here telling me they have attended meetings of other denominations, if I may be permitted to extend your metaphor.

All I was wondering if there might be AA meetings where I might be able to freely share ideas, that is all.

I was hoping to have perhaps discussed some of those spiral steps, to hear somebody say, great, you're making an effort, to see somebody reach out, to get support as opposed to a lecture about how what Freya is doing is so wonderful, and is the way AA does things, and I can do whatever want, blah, blah, blah.

Not exactly a great show of empathy or support. You well wishing rings rather hollow in comparison to the chief aim of you post, which seems cheifly motivated by a sense of self-righteousness, with an apology tacked on. Don’t for a moment think I don’t understand rhetoric. Your use of the term 'one' is amusing, as if you are just happening to make some exclamations, and I just happened to be standing next to you. Funny you choose not to be direct.

In summary, I think you have some anger issues you still need to deal with. Your tone is not only sour, but sanctimonious. I hope you can manage to let go of the bitterness you seem to be bringing to this forum, and perhaps elsewhere.


HP


:P

PS, actually, the Baptist church down the street helps out people no matter what they believe, they give out food, shelter and support, and don't get all offended when the people don't follow or agree with their beliefs. I guess maybe AA is a bit more rigid in it's views, or perhaps it is only you.

[HuskyPup]

Originally Posted by Bamboozle

As long as a person joins AA and does not bash the other members or criticize them for their program, why should anyone care about a member who doesn’t want to do the steps? Shouldn’t those folks worry about their own respective recoveries?

One would imagine. But what would the Freyas of the AA world do? Listen and be polite, or launch tirades? I guess this is why I asked, and it looks like probably, AA is not for me, maybe agnostic, but if people get so bent over a slightly different take on the steps, that just seems small minded, petty and self centered. I can see where my steps 'have nothing to do' the others, that's certainly an overstatement, and I see absolutely nothing in defense of it, it is just tossed out there like a grenade, in all hostility, along with the insult about being insane to even try.



HP

[Dee74]

I can't help but feel the thread is getting a little off track...the Husky Pup, Freya and Bam Show has a nice ring to it, but maybe it's better off on PM?

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No posts that attack, insult, "flame", defame, or abuse members or non-members. Respect other members of the community and don’t belittle, make fun of, or insult another member or non-member. Decisions about health and recovery are highly personal, individual choices. "Flaming" and insults, however, will not be tolerated. Agree to disagree. This applies to both the forums and chat.

Ignore bothersome members. If there is someone on the forum that bothers you, select the Ignore option on the drop down menu under their name on the post. You won't see any posts from this member again.

D

[Bamboozle]

Hi Dee.

[HuskyPup]

Alright, I'll ignore this member and report the post. I don't appreciate being put down like that, and being told that I can't read, and am insane. I found Freya's post both inflamatory, and insulting. That's all for here, you'll hear no more mention of her on the public forums from me, it will be as if she has ceased to exist.

HP

[spiker]

I don't think there is a definitive answer as to whether or not AA is helpful. I also do not think it is egocentric to attend meetings, but decide not to participate in the 12 steps. I have done that in the past. I wanted to meet other sober gays in the community for friendship, and who were struggling to find things to do on the weekend (that didn't involve partying).
I for one would never say "Hi I am so and so, and I am an alcoholic".
I would just wave it on to the next person. I am not into public humiliation lol.
The 12 steps just didn't interest me, and I did not see them as useful tools.
All I know is, I needed to stop drinking and meet others with the same goal.
I met some nice people at the meetings and I met some awful people.
Hell, you might even find a date.
The group would give me an outlet on weekend nights (when my urge was the worst to drink). They would have movie parties at eachother's houses, cookouts, or play games, etc. It was a good outlet for the energy while being around my fellow gays.
Some people claim to be saved by AA, while others claim it is not helpful, even dangerous to the alcoholic.
I challenge you to plug these keywords into a google seach: AA is dangerous.
And see all the theories about this "12 step" program.
Pretty interesting reading
You just have to find your own comfortable medium.
If you don't believe in a GOD. You can just call it "your inner strength".

I honestly think "God" in the Christian sense is what drove me to hard drinking in my youth. I was taught I was a sinner for being gay, and I was gonna burn blah blah blah. I shudder at the thought of attending a church and unfortunately the AA I went to was always in a church,
burn baby burn!!!!!

[spiker]

I guess I need to add. In addition to researching the bad about AA. You should research the good. Also, attend a meeting and see how it goes. There could be some nice folks there that you would not meet otherwise.
However, everyone is going to have a different opinion.
I will just say this. It is important to research the good and bad points. AA is a group that tells you how to live your life, steps you should follow in your life, they even have "approved literature".
In short, it tells you how to live your life by their standards. And it teaches you to pity the drinker who has not yet found AA. And to recruit them. It is very much like a religion in that sense.

[spiker]

The google search words I meant to post were:
AA does not work
Put that in google and read the results.

[Rob B]

These threads are like watching bad train wrecks, the conversation has clearly gotten sidetracked from the original posters comments and turned into a free for all of opinions.

I love how folks who openly state their dislike for AA develop a passion for the 3rd tradition. Seriously? Am I the only one who finds this ironic.

Here's the deal, If you don't like AA, Don't go. There are other ways people are getting sober, although by looking at some of the profiles and the date of sobriety, it would appear people are not experiencing this.

Here's an idea, instead of constantly bemoaning what won't work and what you won't do. Find something that will.

As far as the original post, I don't know, I've never been. I have a few gay friends in AA, the 12 steps as written in the book have worked just fine for them.

[spiker]

If you are talking about my posts, I never stated any disdain for AA. I simply think it is important to research the pros and cons of any program that will consume a lot of your time. To not research it would be ignorance. To go into something blindly is suicide.
There seems to be a lot of judgment here when people have differing opinions. I never personally attacked or insulted anyone，
And by the way, that is what he was asking for, is opinions.
I never "bemoaned" anything. I stated my experience with the group. I did list positive things about the group as well.
AA didn't work. Would you prefer me to lie and praise it and say it works for everyone?
Huskypup, I think you can make your opinions now about the group. I think you need to keep in mind that if you disagree with a hardcore supporter of AA. That person will make an elementary and adolescent attempt at insulting you.

[Rob B]

You are right, I should have left this thread alone, my comments where arrogant and not called for. I apologize and will stay out of this forum. Good luck with whatever path you choose.

[FightingIrish]

Alcohol taught me about being committed to something that has both good and bad parts. In the case of alcohol, it was 1% amazing and 99% the worst thing ever, but I kept coming back because of that 1%.

I came to A.A. because I knew I needed to stop drinking. I also knew I could not do it by myself. I also knew that there are meetings every morning, noon, and night in my small town and surrounding area. So A.A. worked for me on a practical level. Its availability was its chief feature. I was not going to get sober and stay sober by sitting in front of my computer or doing some correspondence course. So I went to lots and lots of meetings, because I knew that if I sat in my house and smoked cigarettes and chatted on the Internet, I would eventually drink.

A.A. helped me re-join life. I was not interested in debating God, dissecting the nuance of language, excavating the history of temperance movements, the Evangelical revival or the Freemasons, I just wanted to stop drinking.

Eventually I met some people - and one guy in particular - who seemed to be living a life he never knew he wanted - and the road map he was using was contained in the Big Book. He offered to share that with me and did. It's now two years later and I have not had a drink since.

I go to gay meetings for fellowship, and to be honest with the hope of finding a date. Sick, I know. I think it's important for me to mix with my people - but most of the meetings I go to are straight. I hardly ever really notice the difference, as I don't feel apart from anyone anymore. I see no conflict with the 12 steps and my identity as a gay man. The person who lead me through them was a straight guy ten years my junior. OK, maybe I had ulterior motives... :-)

[HuskyPup]

Sounds like the only way to know what such meetings are like is to attend one. I don’t plan to barge in like a bull in a china shop, but do wonder what kind of venue it would provide to discus the steps as I see them, as opposed to how they are strictly written. I’m not looking for fights, just people who are willing to reach across the isle, so to speak, and accommodate a slightly different take on things. I was thinking that gays, already having broke a major social taboo, might be more creative in their approach to meetings, the steps, and so forth.

Irish, naw, it isn’t sick to be looking for a date at a meeting, better than looking for one at a bar! It’s never been easy for gays to meet the way straight people do, so if an AA meeting is one venue, that’s fine.

Well, day 5 here, and feeling OK. Still very conflicted about the idea of going to a meeting for the fellowship, as my heart is not into the big book, and it’s ‘inventories’ of our every evil deed and fault. I’m a comple4x individual, with aspects that are both good, bad and in-between, not a warehouse of moral deficiencies. So there are some very basic issues I’m wondering about, and how my differences would be perceived. I’d like to inventory everything, not just the bad; the big book seems so fire and brimstone in this regard.

They say ‘take what you want’, but it doesn’t always seem to play out that way, so I have seen: often, what you ‘leave’ is important, and when you try to discus it, you get jumped on…..at least in the virtual world, so maybe I should just go, be myself, and see what happens. I guess the worst that can happen, is they can kick me out :P

HP