Faith for Gays etc

[utopia]

Ok so after a series of experiences of organised religious abuse and shunning directed towards myself im feeling rather dubious of religion and agnostic. what do Gay bi trans etc people here in this forum use as their higher power? sharings please. needed.

[Faerie]

Yes, I am Bi and a pagan witch,

I worship the Mother Goddess and she loves me very much.

My Grandfather is a Methodist Christian and has often said "I love you but you know you are going to hell"

I now reply that when I get there I'll kick Satan out and take over, that pi**es him off even more, lol.

I'm sorry for what you have been through, nobody deserves to be shunned due to their sexual preference.

Religion and spiritually should be about love and acceptance for all people but sadly that is not always the reality.

Wishing you much love,

Faerie xx

[spittake]

@utopia
I wrote you something over on the spirituality board...lol, that sounds funny coming from me.

I guess this answers my question.

I don't use a Higher Power. I use external help - my family, psychiatric treatment and psychotherapy, this board. I have experience won from prior recovery attempts. I know what my personal pitfalls are (The hardest thing for me is honesty, and asking for help before it must be forced upon me.). I have a pretty good idea what makes me happy and what makes me feel good; I'm open to finding out more.

[indigo]

I use no organized religion, I believe the universe & all it contains are one.

[mattcake79]

I apologize for rambling about this yet again, but it's a touchy subject for me.

I stormed out of the chapel years ago, but I unconsciously carried the effects of the catholic belief system with me - it very much influenced my psychological makeup. For many, *many* years I was racked with guilt, a sense of basic unworthiness and incompleteness, and a feeling that my every action and thought was being judged. A very wise and kind therapist (who happened to be a christian) eventually realised what was going on, and helped me release those core beliefs. He also showed me the true essence of christian catholic beliefs, such as the Trinity, atonement and redemption. I can now appreciate the beauty of the spirituality that underlies the rigid dogma.

Anyway, I can't really define my HP, it's something similar to what Indigo said. I can also relate to the Seven Principles described by the Hermetics. The Universe, Energy... I can't put it into words... but I can feel it at work in my life, though, by a feeling of interconnectedness and flow. Sometimes I do direct my thoughts ("prayers") towards something less abstract, especially when I'm feeling disconnected - I don't think it makes a difference, it's all part of the Life force/One-ness.

Thanks for starting this thread, Utopia

[freya]

I guess I'm not really sure why faith for gays would be any different than faith for anyone else????? (So, I think you might get more mileage outta posting your question in the braoder "Spirituality" forum.)

Personally I experience my spirituality/my relationship with my HP as a very, very individual, specific-to-me kinda thing....and so I tend to believe that that's what it would be like for anyone who is truly walking a spiritual path. And that's not to say that people whose path includes some kind of organized religion (which mine does not except for on an "a la carte" basis) cannot truly be walking a spiritual path, but I do defintiely believe that no 2 persons' paths are the same or that just didactically and rigidly following the path of someone (anyone) who has gone before would proably get one very far on one's spiritual journey. And my discussions with people I know whose spirituality I admire definitely support that.

For me probably the widely known cultural concept that comes closest to my own (obviously very limited) "idea" of my Higher Power is The Force (yes, as in Star Wars). And I don't mean to make it sound "poppish" or to trivialize it, but that really is the closest thing I can come up with that I think most people might understand. For reasons I've written about at length elsewhere, it's very, very important to me not to anthropomorphize HP, or to fall into the trap of thinkning that I can understand HP, or to act like it's at all helpful to "think" of HP in terms of human attributes and characteristics -- even very good, positive human attributes and characteristics.

I am comfortable using the terms HP or God.....depending on to whom I'm talking. Recently, I've also been experimenting with the term "Spirit," although I'm not sure I'm comfortable with the new-agey-ness of it. I also like the Aristotelean "First Mover" (or "First/Prime Cause"), but that's not really one that most people now days "get."

I think for me at this point the idea of arbitrarily "using something as my HP" makes very little sense to me....probably because it sounds too much like I'm the one in control in the relationship...I don't/can't "use" my HP in that sense. If I'm lucky and I'm working my program well, then I put myself in the position to be used by HP.....and unless I am very, very clear about and aware of that bottom-line issue of who's in charge here, I don't really have a program. What I have is a serious problem working Steps 1-3.

freya

P.S. I feel like there's something else more important hiding underneath this question -- or at least underneath the way it's been asked. I think it is connected with the "who's in charge" issue. At the moment, I can't exactly put my finger on what's problematic for me about it, but if it comes to me I'll post again.

P.P.S. An AA speaker I really like tells his sponsees to make a list of all the characteristics that God would/should have if they believed in Him. Then he goes over the list with them to make sure it's complete, and when it is, he gives it back to them and tells them: "OK, this is your HP." (Obviously, this is somewhat at odds with my personal style/approach, but it is one way to do it that works for some people.)

[freya]

OMG......how totally friggin' stupid of me!!!!!!! The "problem" with the question is that it makes no sense.....unless I assume that I cannot or, for some reason am unable, to access HP as my HP and, thus, am forced to rely on some less-than "real" substitute.

...and actually I'm wondering if this is somehow related to the whole strange notion that GLBT people would necessarily have some kind of different "faith"???????...because, I guess, if access to HP was somehow denied to me because I'm a lesbian and if I wanted a HP, then I'd have to "find" something to use as a substitute...but it's not and I don't! So:

HP is my HP, and

I do not accept or settle for substitutes.

And any friggin' ignorant, hateful religious zealots who have a problem with that or with my very-good-and-getting-better relationship with HP, well, they can just go off and find a substitute of their own, because I'm stickin' with the real thing.

freya

...so, yeah, just say "NO" to allowing ignorant, hateful religious zealots to be in charge of and/or in any way limit your options when it comes to your spiritual growth! They only have that power if you choose to give to them.

[mattcake79]

Originally Posted by freya

...and actually I'm wondering if this is somehow related to the whole strange notion that GLBT people would necessarily have some kind of different "faith"???????...because, I guess, if access to HP was somehow denied to me because I'm a lesbian and if I wanted a HP, then I'd have to "find" something to use as a substitute...[I]

LOL! I love your second post, Freya.

I'm guessing most of us here are adults, and/or may have reached a certain situation that beckons us to ask questions (and hopefully find answers) regarding spirituality. I also think that most of us were probably introduced to spirituality via religion at an early age (I know those two terms are *not* interchangeable).

Okay, instead of making assumptions, I'll refer to my own experience. To put it plainly and crudely: my parents basically forced an organized religion down my throat when I was a kid; a religion that has guilt, sin and shame as main themes. I was told, in no uncertain terms, that *one* false move could potentially land me in hell. At age eight, I was terrified of God. By the time I hit puberty and had realised that I was gay, I felt doomed, courtesy of this belief structure.

Needless to say, I escaped that religion, and later became very angry at it. But not all kids escape this illusion. It's tightly woven into our culture. Some GLBTs buy into it and, in extreme cases, wind up taking their own lives due to fear and guilt - I've seen this happen.

It's no wonder that many GLBTs are at odds with religion and faith- the most fundamentalist ones condemn us, for crying out loud. In my personal quest for spirituality, I first had to realise that religion is *not* the same as god/spirit/HP - that might seem obvious, but it's not. I also had to exorcise myself from the deeply ingrained beliefs that had been instilled in me at a very young age. Needless to say, it wasn't an overnight process - in fact, I'm only get started.

Originally Posted by freya

...so, yeah, just say "NO" to allowing ignorant, hateful religious zealots to be in charge of and/or in any way limit your options when it comes to your spiritual growth! They only have that power if you choose to give to them.

Well said!

[Bamboozle]

I don't have faith. I used to. I grew up believing I would go to hell for being who I am and as a result totally repressed my sexuality. It's only been quite recently that I've been able to pull myself out of that hole. What a nightmare.

I don't have a spirit or spirituality.

I do think the night sky is beautiful and I always look up in wonderment. I don't know the workings of matter and light but I don't need to. I spent a lot of time thinking about various possibilities and have come to the conclusion that everything that matters to me is right in front of me.

I guess the only thing I believe in is that people have the power within themselves to change. This keeps me going.

[freya]

Here's a little story that's very, very definitive of "ME" (in relation to organized religion) and of my very unusual "Catholic" upbringing:

When I was little (age 4-13) my family officially attended the Catholic parish that we were supposed to attend based on the area in which we lived. There were always 3-4 priests at this parish, but the Pastor was an elderly man who was very rigid, orthodox and conservative. As time went on and my family -- mostly due to my mom's interests and politics -- became more and more involved in the soicial issues of the day (desegregation, feminism, the anti-war movement, etc....), this guy began to have a real problem with and resentment against us and especially against my mom. Eventually, my mom pulled us out of the parish school (to enroll us in a voluntary desegregation program), and we began to periodically attend a renegade church that organized protests and hid/smuggled draft dodgers, and sang "Age of Aquarius" in the mass.

Well, the old pastor was very, very unhappy with us.....hateful, really....and even more hateful because my mom so totally did not care what he thought or what he wanted....(My mom was always fond of saying: "I'm here to worship God, not Father X." Gotta love that line!)

So, anyways, one Sunday (when I was 9 years old) we were at mass at his church, and we were going up for communion, and when I got up to him, he looked at the way my hands were folded (clasped together instead of palm-to-palm), stopped, paused, and then said very loudly: "Fold your hands properly!"

...and, what can I say, at that very moment a b*tch was born!

I can't remember exactly what I thought, but I definitely knew that this was not OK, and that it had nothing to do with my hands, and that I didn't have to let him treat me like this, and that it was most definitely not in my best interest to let him get away with it.

So, I turned around and went and got in the communion lline of another (pretty radical) priest who was a good friend of our family's.

So, yeah, I do know that a lot of people have "issues" due to their Catholic upbringing. But my personal experience was a little different! LOL!

freya

[mattcake79]

That's a good story, Frey =) Do you take after your Mum?

I have a similar one.. In my overly dramatic post, I left out the reason why I -literally- stormed out of the chapel when I was 14. Confession was compulsory on Wednesdays (though, of course, we were "strongly encouraged" to do it more often), but I usually managed to weasel out of it. One Wednesday, though, I gave in and went into the Pastor's office -for some reason that's where Confession took place-.. filled with anxiety and guilt, I burst into tears and confessed to having "impure thoughts". The pastor raised his eyebrows and prescribed my penance, and then asked me to elaborate.

Well, I wasn't expecting that question, but I told him the truth: the unchaste thoughts were directed at men. I honestly do not know *what* I was expecting from him (a pat on the back? concern? sympathy?) but what I got was a very curt "Surrender those thoughts immediately, Child, and pray to God for deliverance.. otherwise, your soul will be damned and doomed."

I just lost it, right then and there. "Anger" is an understatement. If I posted what I told him, I'd prolly be banned, lol, so just imagine a verrryyyyyy long string of asterisks.

Then I stormed out that place and never looked back.

[utopia]

[QUOTE=freya;2319549]I guess I'm not really sure why faith for gays would be any different than faith for anyone else?????
freya

P.S. I feel like there's something else more important hiding underneath this question -- or at least underneath the way it's been asked. I think it is connected with the "who's in charge" issue.
[QUOTE]


ok, to elaborate....faith for "gays" is different for me because the fact I am gay has been used to segreagate and separate me in organised religion as that there is something wrong with me, that Satan is using me, that I was deficient, evil, lost, misguided, sick, wrong.

So i was forced to review and to question my faith because I wanted the comfort peace and security but being shunned for who I was caused guilt shame and fear. Ill post later more about why because I m still processing.

[freya]

Originally Posted by utopia

ok, to elaborate....faith for "gays" is different for me because the fact I am gay has been used to segreagate and separate me in organised religion as that there is something wrong with me, that Satan is using me, that I was deficient, evil, lost, misguided, sick, wrong.

So i was forced to review and to question my faith because I wanted the comfort peace and security but being shunned for who I was caused guilt shame and fear. Ill post later more about why because I m still processing.

(emphasis added)

OK so the answer to "Who's in charge here?" -- i.e to who has the determining power in your spiritual life -- is: hateful religious zealots???? (Hereafter referred to as "HRZs.")

They are the ones who are so powerful that they "separate and segregate" you within (or even from) organized religion, and they (or their behavior) are so strong that they "force" you to question your faith and your value as a human being?????

I just don't believe that.

In fact, I am 100% absolutely certain that you have total power and control here -- and the only way they get to have any at all is if you choose to give it to them.

I most certainly know that HRZ's would like to and try hard to exclude you, separate you from HP, and undermine your confidence and self-esteem -- but who says you have to let them????

Actually, you know what I think? I think that "Satan" is using the HRZs to try to separate you from HP. And, OK, so they choose to go along with Satan's plan, but that doesn't mean that you have to!

There are at this point quite a few churches and even some entire organized religions that do not discriminate against or demonize GLBT people. There is even a Christian religion (Metropolitan Community Church -- google it!) that was originally founded by a gayman specifically to create and celebrate GLBT-positive Christianity.

And, of course, who says that your faith, your spirituality, your relationship with HP/God/Goddess/whatever you want to call It, has to depend upon, or even include, organized religion anyways?

If you don't like and/or agree with HRZs, why are you choosing to give them and their bad behavior so much power over you and over this important aspect of your life and recovery?

It's said that the best revenge is living well. And, in this particular instance "living well" would mean your enjoying a strong faith and good relationship with HP and claiming for yourself all of the power, joy and security that comes with that, despite all of the HRZs' efforts to keep you from doing so.

Maybe 15 years ago there was a book published about the relationship between gays and organized Christianity. It was entitled: Unrepentent, Self-Affirming, Practicing, a word-play on the common fundamentalist Christin idea that, in order for gays to be acceptable to God, they had to be repentent, self-denying, and non-practicing.

Unrepentent. Self-Affirming. Practicing. -- that's what it means to be "out and proud" in your relationship with HP. That's what it means for you to wrest back the power to determine your spirituality, the power you have given over to the HRZs.

And here's a little mantra to help you out:

HRZs are not the boss of me.

HRZs are not the boss of me.

HRZs are not the boss of me.

..and HP says so!

nah, nah, nah, nah nah.........

freya

[spittake]

@freya
I appreciate your sentiment, and I totally agree with you.

At issue for me, in my experience, was that the anti-gay message didn't originate with the zealots. It is explicit in the Bible, the foundational text for the whole religion, which I believed to be the word of God Himself, handed down to humans.

There definitely are sects of Christianity that employ a much more reasoned understanding of the Bible. I simultaneously attended an Episcopal church, and there were members of the clergy who were openly gay - in a conservative U.S. state...in the '90s!

Maybe utopia will speak more to what's at issue for him/her.

[Bamboozle]

Originally Posted by spittake

At issue for me, in my experience, was that the anti-gay message didn't originate with the zealots. It is explicit in the Bible, the foundational text for the whole religion, which I believed to be the word of God Himself, handed down to humans.

Same here. I read the bible in fear. Eternal damnation is quite a threat. And I believed it.

[otterbearcat]

I grew up without any religion, we never went to church when I was a kid (thank 'god' lol)

When I was 13 I started going to a Methodist Church because my friends parents went. I liked it because there was singing. I stopped going when I realized 'they', 'god', etc thought it was wrong to be gay. I thought to myself,
"How could love be wrong?".

I came out around 16, which is the same time my mother became a Born Again Christian.

I therefore have had an aversion to Christianity for some time.

I have always considered myself agnostic.

In college I was a philosophy major and took a lot of classes on Buddhism, there were things I connected with, but was not/ am not really interested in religion.

Now that I am sober, I find myself to be much more receptive to spirituality. I dont really identify with the term 'higher power' , but I do find comfort in the idea that there is oneness in the universe.

[GoldenGutters]

I'm somewhere between Buddhism and Unitarian Universalism. The great thing about the latter is that they're completely accepting of the former.

[freya]

A woman goes into the fabric shop to pick out some material from which to make a nightgown for her wedding night. Upon choosing the fabric, she tells the salesperson who's been helping her that she'd like 200 yards!

The salesperson exclaims: "200 yards! You cannot possibly need 200 yards to make a nightgown!"

The woman replies: "Oh yes, at least 200 yards! My fiance is a UU minister: he believes that seeking is more important than finding!"


*************************************

My ex-husband and I used to attend the UU church -- there are lots of good UU jokes, but that one's my favorite! I remember one time when we were living on Long Island, we were on our way to church and stopped to get bagels for breakfast: A Moslem-by-birth and a Christian-by-birth stopping at the kosher deli to get bagels on their way to the UU church -- only in America!

freya

P.S. ....and I absolutely do believe that seeking is more important than finding!

[Daisy09]

Hi Utopia,

I hope no one minds me posting here...I'm not GLBT, nor am I an addict (my husband is addicted to heroin.) But I saw your post on the main page, and it made me want to add my $.02. I saw that some others recommended Unitarian Universalism, and I wanted to add my voice to the chorus. We became UUs a couple of years ago, and in general UUs are an extremely welcoming bunch. Many UU churches now state specifically that they are "Welcoming Congregations", which means they reach out specifically to the GLBT community in order to make sure that everyone can have a spiritual home. There is no dictated set of beliefs - it's a community based on shared values.

Hope this helps,
Daisy

[utopia]

ive been processing a lot and looking fwd greatly to reading your comments each day. An excerpt from this song sums up my religious experience and where I'm at right now....

You know how us Catholic girls can be
We make up for so much time a little too late
I never forgot it, confusing as it was
No fun with no guilt feelings
The sinners, the saviors, the loverless priests
I'll see you next Sunday

We all had our reasons to be there
We all had a thing or two to learn
We all needed something to cling to
So we did

I sang Alleluia in the choir
I confessed my darkest deeds to an envious man
My brothers they never went blind for what they did
But I may as well have
In the name of the Father, the Skeptic and the Son
I had one more stupid question

We all had our reasons to be there
We all had a thing or two to learn
We all needed something to cling to
So we did

What I learned I rejected but I believe again
I will suffer the consequence of this inquisition
If I jump in this fountain, will I be forgiven
We all had our reasons to be there
We all had a thing or two to learn
We all needed something to cling to
So we did

We all had delusions in our head
We all had our minds made up for us
We had to believe in something
So we did

"im a guy but yeh still feel this song resonates, its called Forgiven by Alanise Morissette