AS just used (again) after 3 days detox-

Old 08-11-2017, 06:26 PM
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AS just used (again) after 3 days detox-

My heroin addicted son (just turned 30 today) has been in an out of rehab this year, with mixed success and difficulties. He has gone back each time to try again, largely at my behest and to satisfy courts, but id want to get sober more this time than before.

After 7 days in detox, was slated to go into inpatient again for 3 months. At last minute asked to wait longer or do something else. After talking to a sober counselor, it seemed reasonable to give him a chance at outpatient and get on with looking for work, etc. he was on Suboxone and agreed to resume taking it if in outpatient.

Well, slowly the agreement began to get looser and looser as he asked for just a few more days to rest after detox, etc. He did continue to see his Suboxone doctor, but still not taking subs. Was in touch somewhat by phone with outpatient counselor. Didn't go to meetings, always some excuse. Then his GR money came, and he had agreed to let me hold half, but then renigged.

I've been trying to allow him more space to make decisions, without my 'nagging', while at the same time reminding him to check in, at least go to a meeting, and next week he would start going to outpatient and meetings daily, and consider going back on subs.

He knows he can't stay here and use. I truly am done with it and don't want to live with the anguish, doubt, etc.

Today is his 30th birthday. I had a feeling he did something yesterday. ( Sudden vomiting for no reason is usually a tell-tale sign with heroin addicts.) Today, when I came home from work it was confirmed. I wasn't as 'hard' at first, trying to make it a pleasant birthday, but hall he cared about was nodding out for 2 hours.

Suggested he stop and nip this in the bud now. Or if outpatient is too hard, he will need to go to inpatient next week.

Question/issue: wrestling with giving him chance to get back on track after 2 days of dabbling and using and start back on subs right away and go to meetings this weekend, & start outpatient next week
vs
tell him it looks like inpatient is better for him at this point and he can use weekend to clean up enough to get into inpatient, before it gets out of control again.

The most time he's been able to be clean this year in various stints of rehab is 2-3 months.
Thought he was committed to trying, but not sure outpatient provides enough structure and I don't want him laying up in my apt while Im at work using and playing games.

Also, not sure I feel like getting him the phone for his birthday. Besides, I've told him they close soon, but he seems oblivious. Maybe I should wait until tomorrow if he straightens up. He'll say I ruined birthday, but he did by his choices today.

Thoughts. & please do not yell at me or put me down.

Glad some of you have this licked. it is a process for some of us and I do give him credit for taking subs and going to rehab this year and trying. (Sometimes he wasn't discharged for drugs.)
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Old 08-11-2017, 07:07 PM
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Hi Vaya

I'm sorry to hear the chaos and drama of active addiction are still part of your life--that your son is still just not done yet.

Please vent here any time. I wish I had words of wisdom, but I don't believe that I can add anything to what has already been said.

Your first thread here was roughly 7 years ago. We all do the best we can when it comes to our addicted loved ones. It sounds as though you are still too afraid to let him go, to suffer the consequences of his own actions, to learn to live his life on life's terms. It get it. My stepson is drinking and using Heroin last we heard. It is frightening. But I just can't and won't throw myself onto the altar of *his* addiction. And so I pray.

I will keep you and your son in my prayers as well. Please take very good care of yourself, Vaya.
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Old 08-11-2017, 07:32 PM
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Vaya, your son will need to want recovery for himself and I pray that time comes soon. Long term inpatient may be his best bet but any program will only be as successful as his willingness to work it.

I had to let go of trying to save my son from himself, trying to save him was killing me.

So I pray and ask God to do what I cannot and then live my life knowing it is truly out of my hands.

I will pray for your son too. And for you because I truly know your pain.
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Old 08-11-2017, 10:35 PM
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I appreciate your input and it is helpful. I have let him go many times, but I guess not for good. Didn't bail him out this last time, have kicked him out before even though he was homeless. and more. This time when I did let him come back home it was only for a few weeks at most and then he had to go and seek help/treatment.
This past year he has had 4 overdoses where 911 had to be called and he was hospitalized, almost dying twice. The fear of him dying against his efforts at rehab and taking suboxone this year have contributed to allowing him back at all. He is depressed. I have reached out for help when he was hospitalized but all they do is give one a list of places to call. I've asked them to keep him on a hold, but they wouldn't.
He has asked for help too. He may not be fully committed yet and that's where the problem is.
My goal is not to get him out of my life forever, even tho I am not tolerating as much as before. Maybe it's more cut an dry for some here. I am getting stronger and firmer.
It's not about how long it takes someone to shut the door completely on their addicted child....but yes i am getting closer to doing that.
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Old 08-12-2017, 04:33 AM
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Hi vaya

You can only do what you feel is the best thing at any given time. Sometimes I think that people believe that cutting yourself off from the chaos of active addiction means completely shutting someone out of your life. That that is what many of us are suggesting. But I don't think completely shutting someone out is necessary each and every time.

My stepson, as I have mentioned, is still active in his disease. What his father (my late husband) and I learned to do was simply not be a part of his day-to-day drama of losing a place to live, not having any money, wrecking his car, watching him be strung out and speeding around the house. Once my husband stopped trying to solve all his problems for him, stopped giving him money, and told him he had to find someplace else to live, "Jr." stopped trying to bring that chaos into our world. Because he knew he wasn't going to get from us what he wanted-- which was money and a soft place to land in between 'runs'.

We still talked over the phone when it was possible. My husband was frequently on the receiving end of some pretty drunk phone calls, but he felt that he was at least keeping that line of communication open with his son. He was willing to do that. Now that my husband is gone, I try to at least text my stepson every now and then to let him know I care and that I am thinking about him. (He and his sister speak about once a month).

My stepson has been through several hospitalizations, group meetings, counseling sessions, sober-living houses. He knows where the help is if and when he decides he really wants to be done. So, we let him be responsible for his own choices because we have already laid the groundwork by showing him that he has options. He has the power to choose a different life. I hope and pray that someday he will make that choice for himself.

Vaya, you are free to make whatever choice you wish as far as your involvement in your son's life is concerned. It is sad to see how much fear and anxiety you are living with, and you are the only one who can make these choices for yourself. Please do not hesitate to come here and vent and ask questions anytime you need to as you work through all of this. I hope and pray that your son will choose a better life for himself very soon!
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Old 08-12-2017, 01:06 PM
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vaya, i can't imagine how it felt for you knowing he had 4 ODs and hospitalizations. and why you would want to ramp up your involvement.

sadly, your AS doesn't seem to GET IT. he keeps wiggling off the hook and trying to do it HIS way, which means continuing to use. the last minute switch on the recovery plan is classic addict. he knew if he went INpatient, he'd have no access to drugs....but if he appeared compliant and chose OUTpatient, he'd be free to use at will.

until HE truly sees the life and death choice, your intervention will be limited at best. he doesn't care about birthdays or normal days or even the effort you put in. he will tolerate your interference as much as it still enables him to use drugs. he'll do the bare minimum to give you hope

you said he can't be at your house if he used.

he used in your home. on his birthday. disrespecting your "rules". but you aren't dealing with someone who cares about rules, or even a mother's love and tender heart. you are a means to an end.
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Old 08-13-2017, 08:43 PM
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Anvilhead- Not sure what you mean by ramping up my involvement- you mean letting him come home and do outpatient?
I get some of what you are saying.. probably was manipulative on his part to get out of inpatient last minute. He may not have even expected me to say yes! if I had not called the person who ran outpatient he is planning to go to, I would have stuck with the original plan. Just didn't feel like forcing the issue was the way to go either.
He is willing to go into inpatient in lieu of this week's slip. People here always assume the addict is going to go in kicking his heels, tantruming.
He does have a better attitude about things and is trying to quit and has had more sober and clean days this year than not. He also tried Suboxone for about 5 months with a couple of short episodes off in between treatment.
Also, everyone here thinks heroin addicts can just stop and walk in somewhere for treatment. Plans were laid and he interviewed for treatment in the 2nd week after he was discharged, but heroin addicts can't just walk in. They have to be detoxed, and some placed insist on a medical detox, which he had to wait to get into.
Then there's the complication about suboxone. Most rehab/treatment centers won't let people take Suboxone while in treatment, so then there's the issue of detoxing off of that before entering treatment, as the previous place had required and making it more difficult for the heroin addict to focus on treatment. When my AS was starting to slip the first time after being discharged for taking xanax at the rehab, there was the other double bind of the fact he couldn't be too clean, or else his insurance wouldn't cover it. In other words, he had to test dirty to get in!
Yes, the bottom line is the addict has to want it, but it has been my experience as he (and I) have knocked on numerous doors for treatment that there are conditions to comply with and one must be clean before entering. (If it was that easy for someone to get clean before entering treatment, it kind of makes you wonder why they'd need treatment then.
So...yes, he has to be the one to get sick and tired and be willing to do whatever is necessary to stop. that is why I gave him the choice of outpatient vs inpatient up to him ultimately, so I wouldn't be controlling the process.
Bottom line is he is willing to stop. Idk how anyone can assign a time limit to addiction, codependency or the fact that it may take multiple attempts to finally get it. I work in a rehab and I see people leave and come back all the time. Relapse is often a normal part of addiction. Even people with years of sobriety slip.
My AS has been consistently willing to stop, go into treatment and rehab throughout this 9 months. He does still need help. He's been doing this for the last 13 or so years.
I am well aware that I consciously choose to let him into my life. It is my perogative to stay close, encourage him,, yet not tolerate and help him get the help he needs, which he is willing to do.
Negative judgement of either one of us does not help either one of us.
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Old 08-13-2017, 08:54 PM
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Seren- I appreciate your kind words. I know all of you mean well. Thank goodness you and Ann say it with less judgement and disdain.
I don't think it matters how long someone is dealing with this. My AS was incarcerated at least 2 times since I first posted, once for a year, another time was sentenced to drug court, and most recently sentenced to an inpatient program. Some of the 7 years he has also been in rehab or jail. At other times he has worked, tried methadone treatment and most recently suboxone.
Call me crazy, but I do feel as long as he has been taking steps toward recovery and wellness, I will work with him as far as possible.
I have also sent him to the streets several times.
No, I am not willing to completely shut the door on him. I do not believe it would help him at this point. I am coming to a natural point of being done with helping now. He is depressed and anxious and has tried to deliberately overdose this year at least one of the occasions. I cannot be so hardened to the thought of losing my son altogether yet.
He is trying, maybe not hard enough yet, especially according to people's standards here. I know what I have to face up to and I know I cannot save him. Ultimately he must. I am struggling with that. I'm glad you recognize people must come to understandings on their own time.
Sometimes I can't stand this forum since so many appear judgmental. thank you to you and Ann for a softer way. I know Anvilhead is always direct,, hence her name. But it doesn't want me want to come back her again. I know the truth isnt always pretty and I do have to face up to things and I can't delude myself into getting too hopeful when he is taking the right steps to help himself.
Thanks for letting me vent.
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Old 08-13-2017, 09:40 PM
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So maybe I'm in denial, idk. But where is he to go? Rehab is only up to 3 months. When he's done there he has no job, no place to live, etc...
If he's willing to take the steps to get sober, is it right for me to deny him access to my home?
Everything takes time and money here. Maybe it's different where people here live. There's no instant housing. Even sober living can be up to a $1000 a month. Anything less is usually in a very rough, and often drug infested, neighborhood. ( He's done that too...)
I know deep down it's not my problem. But if he's willing to take steps to get back on and stay on track....
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Old 08-14-2017, 02:57 AM
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Hi Vaya

I have been reading your posts.

I am relatively new here & have been dealing with my own serious problems.

I have a long thread. Numerous & various people on SR have offered up advice & their informed opinions. Some have presented their information to me in a soft way. Others including Anvilhead & Tomsteve have hit me hard.

At first their cold hard facts are difficult to take. It shook me out of my comfort zone. They aren't doing it to hurt you (or me) or drive you from SR. They are doing it to help you think through this extremely difficult process.

Anvilhead has hit me hard often. But I have come to understand why. I know she cares. Cares enough to help a stranger like myself. I am not defending her style. But I just wanted you to know that behind it all she cares & is just trying to make you think clearly. It has helped me.

Good luck & thanks
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Old 08-14-2017, 03:18 AM
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Vaya

I'm not judging you *at all*. I just share what my late husband and I did. My sharing that with you in no way obligates you to do the same and it is not pressuring you to do the same, either.

You have to do what you think is best, what your heart and head are telling you to do.

The following I share just as a point of information. The last time that my stepson was in the hospital and my husband was still living, we went to see him (he was in another state). He was released from the hospital to rehab arranged by the hospital's social worker. From here, he went to a sober-living house in yet another state and got a job. Slowly but surely, my stepson made the decision to drink again and left the sober-living house. He gave us some song-and-dance reason for it, but we knew.

At that point, the only thing my husband was willing to do was help him pay for drug and alcohol treatment, and that he would have to make the arrangements himself if that is what he wanted. Beyond that, my husband was not going to help anymore with rent, phone, car, nothing. When this happened, my stepson was 31 years old.

He has been homeless several times in the past. Been in county jails and in prison. Walked or biked wherever he needed to go. He always eventually ended up on someone's couch or rooming with someone. Amazingly resourceful he is...

Now, he lives in another state, and I haven't spoken with him in many months. He somehow manages to get by, although I doubt I would enjoy hearing the details. He will never be invited to live with me now that I am alone. I simply don't trust him especially now that he has added Heroin to the mix. I deserve to feel safe and at peace in my own home. And that is what my house is, my peaceful home.

As I said before, when it comes to your son and your house, you need to make decisions that you can live with. Because you have mentioned that your current 'agreement' seems to be loosening--meaning he is not being compliant with the original timeline? Is that right? You asked whether or not that meant he was "playing" you. Well, I can't tell you that, but when similar things happened with my stepson, yes, we were being played (or at least he was trying anyway). We decided that whenever he did not keep his end of the bargain, we were free to not keep up our end (pay for the phone, help with a deposit on an apartment, and so on).

vaya, you have to decide what is best for you. If that is keeping your son with you, then that is keeping your son with you. You have every right to make that decision. You are closest to that situation--not us. I wish you peace!
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Old 08-14-2017, 04:17 AM
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Vaya, just to clear the air a little, when I arrived at SR it was people who talked straight goods that helped me most...even though it was painful to hear sometimes and I felt they were being insensitive.

Yes, I needed gentle hugs and a lot of tissues...but I also needed some clarity and to take an honest look at myself and my part in my own sorrow.

Please know that every single person who responds to your posts does so with a caring heart. Embracing our diversity is a good way to see our situation from various perspectives, and in the end that is exactly what helped me make the commitment to myself to set a better course and begin healing and living a healthier life.

Your son is in my prayers, so are you. As the mother of an addict I truly understand your pain and fear.

Hugs
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Old 08-14-2017, 06:56 AM
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I told AS he'll have to go to inpatient. He has agreed. I pray the logisitics work out. He will have to figure that out if they don't.
I believe he has used at least 4 of the 7 days since he's been here. I made a mistake letting him consider outpatient when he was ready to go in.
I am a little frustrated as to why the rehab kept me waiting so long. AFter hours they gave me a list of clothing items he could bring in, but I didn't understand the delay still. I wish they had just told me he's all set and I can go. If I hadn't waited around, he'd be there now and wouldn't have had the chance to ask me if he could wait. Why couldn't they just give me the list ahead of time, since they knew he was coming in? then I could of dropped him and his things off.
Well, now he'll have to go into inpatient or figure something out himself. He says he'll go. Pray for us it works out smoothly.
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Old 08-14-2017, 07:37 AM
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It is frustrating, however, it is his doing, not the rehabs or yours. It does sound like the logistics are a nightmare, however, many people have to negotiate through those things in life, and learn to deal with them a step at a time. It sounds to me as though he toes the line just enough so that you won't kick him out.

My heart hurts for you as I cannot imagine. In no way am I being critical or judgemental as the fear of losing your child has to be overwhelming.

I think you have to do what you feel comfortable doing yourself. Maybe that means him getting clean in inpatient, having requirements, one being a job after so long. He has to grow up, learn responsibility, and want this, badly. Those are responsible adult things that he has to strive for to be a good citizen and kick this.

I send my prayers to both you and your son.
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Old 08-14-2017, 09:04 AM
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Thank you, Hopeful. I appreciate that. I guess I was hoodwinked. I really believed he wanted this. I should have called it sooner. Maybe better it played out so I see where things are at. Not doing this as a punishment. He knew he had to do things and not do other things to stay here. So this is a natural consequence of his non compliance.
Wondering if I should call the rehab or have him do it? I've been part of the process of his getting in there anyway. If I wait for him to do it, chances are he will draw it out.
They were expecting him there for outpatient this week anyway and he's due to call them.
I'd rather make the call, or at least leave a message so we can get the ball rolling again. We may have to wait at least a day so he can get his 'levels' down. Hopefully, since he was just there clean 1 week ago they'll take him as is.
This time I will have his bag packed and ready to drop him off and not hang around.
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Old 08-14-2017, 09:16 AM
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vaya - i did NOT express any negative judgement whatsoever. i was speaking from the viewpoint OF an addict, and the games i see your son playing. but perhaps it's best i just recuse myself, as i do not have the capacity to sugar coat stuff.
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Old 08-14-2017, 09:36 AM
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Anvilhead- When I look back you did not express anything negative. it was just very real. I admit I wasn't ready for that at the time.
Now after waiting a few days I see that you were in fact right. I didn't realize you were posting from the viewpoint of an addict. In fact, I even posted on the Substance Abusers forum hoping for just that- viewpoint from an addict.
I pretty much know what the general responses will be here and they are spot on. Yours was just very direct and actually just what I needed.
I spent time reacting to it because I wasn't ready to believe it. I am still so caught up believing it was different this time and in denial.
You , and everyone else , weren't negative. Now that the writing is on the wall I see you were right.
I thought by listening to the outpatient person's perspective when I called him, I was on the right track, even though my gut instinct was to say no. I'm surprised I caved. But addicts are very convincing.
My AS may want recovery, somewhat, but I suspect what Hardlessons said about my son doing just enough to stay here is true. I figured the fact that he's been in rehabs this year and went on suboxone said something about what he wants. However, he's got to want it badly enough to do whatever is necessary to get it.
The frustrations in rehabs and requirements and experiences I've had in hospitals with him and more are very real. When I was ready to leave him in their hands they just wouldn't help, wouldn't let him in or were too easy on him.
However, there are addicts that get the help they need, many despite the obstacles. He turned down rehab at the detox this time. Something neither he, nor they told me before I came to pick him up. Had I known, I may not have picked him up. That's where my frustration is. When I'm ready to let go and let them do their job there's always a problem. I guess it's up to him to work with them and do what is necessary. Maybe he doesnt' because he has learned I've always been there.
Thank you Anvilhead and all of you who have responded here for your ESH and insights. Thank you for not taking my reaction too personally. I really do get what you have all said, but wasn't ready to hear it, because I was too caught up in my fantasy that it would all be all right.
Now....I will call the rehab just to let them know....rather than lose the opportunity of his still going. May have to wait until tomorrow so he can see his sub doctor and to give him a day to stop. Back to the double edged sword...if they know he's slipped will they insist on his being clean again?
I really messed up this time. Should have sent him there when I first knew. I hope he can get in as soon as possible.
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Old 08-14-2017, 10:03 AM
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One more word about my frustrations with rehabs...When I first call to get the information and get the process going, or at least get an appointment, many times the facility will not talk to me because he is an adult. They insist on talking to him, even just to get the basics. While that would seem to make sense, in the case of heroin addicts, or at least my AS, he's either too loaded or too dope sick to make or take the call. It's just nuts how rehabs expect addicts to show up clean and take all these steps to get in. At the same time, what the rules, facility, requirements, and more is like is a mystery up until the last minute in most cases. Ultimately, that isn't as big a problem if someone want help, I guess they'll go in no matter what. But I don't understand why rehabs aren't more transparent about their requirements, etc, even on their websites. Others don't follow what they've posted. Some are listed with SAMSHA as accepting patients on opiate medications (like suboxone), but then say they won't let them take it at the facility.
The one he is going to, that insisted on detox, has a medical detox component in their program, which uses suboxone, could only take my AS insurance for rehab, but it didn't cover detox! That's why he had to prolong the process to wait longer to get into the medical detox his insurance covered. And this is the same rehab that won't let him take his suboxone there, even under their doctor's supervision. When he spoke with them about Outpatient instead that day, rather than enroll him right then, so we had a plan and structure in place for the next day, then they insisted he bring recent medical records or get a physical so they could get him into Outpatient and have insurance cover it. Another delay in the process! He did try to get a physical with his doctor, but his veins are so collapsed they cannot draw blood. He had just come back from a medical detox, but that wasn't enough!
Other rehabs required that he separate from the facility for at least 30days before returning and that he be clean when he do so! I don't know too many Heroin addicts that are going to leave rehab for 30 days and then not use!

I needed to vent more about the frustration with the rehabs.
But...still had to share how the rehabs themselves can worsen the problem on many levels. They are not all they are cracked up to be. it's just a place for someone to stay and hopefully use the tools and counseling to get over their addiction. They do not really help much with transition to life.
Sober livings are one option, but they are ridiculous too, since you can be discharged without a refund if you test dirty or they are more expensive than renting a room, just because they drug test.

Finally, my AS was court ordered and put on probation. He was ordered to the drug rehab for a year. He wound up completing about 6 months and then went to another rehab. Probation doesn't drug test him either. Idk why that wasn't part of the orders. Even the court messed up. At least he my AS had to UA with Probation he would suffer natural consequences of getting remanded to custody.
Seems like it just doesn't go the way it does with other success stories here and elsewhere.
So, while my AS needs to want to get over his addiction, many of the places & circumstances that are options make it ridiculous. I know the bottom line is his making it work at rehab or wherever he goes if he wants it badly enough and wants a life without drugs. (It would help tho if rehabs made it a little easier to get going on the process.)
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Old 08-14-2017, 10:20 AM
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Dear Vaya, I am coming in a bit late to your recent concerns with your son. From my point of view, I did the swoop and save with JJ last December after he had successfully completed a recovery program of 9 months but then went into a "run" for 3 months. I got him to a place that was spiritual and more faith based then 12 steps. JJ stumbled after 90 days but then went right back to working his recovery, however he crumbled 60 days later and without me knowing, he blew two paychecks and got kicked out of the rehab and was flying free for about 10 days and he THEN went to detox on his own and finally got himself back to Freedom Ranch. My point is that the swoop and save that I did for my son yielded a very short term result but when HE made the arrangements to get to the program that has worked for him in the past, it was truly his choice. I pray for your peace and that your son decides soon to be done with it all.
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Old 08-14-2017, 11:18 AM
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Thank you IlovemysonJJ. I remember reading some of your posts. I was trying to stay out of the way when I let my AS choose outpatient and to work a program on his own, with structure and support. The sober coach who runs the other outpatient program said it's important he wants to do whatever he does or it won't be effective. Thats why I went in that direction and to let him take more control over his own recovery, look for work, etc. However, after 1 week it is not working out.
If he's willing to go to inpatient, then I will have peace and time to think.
I can tell him to go. He will want all of his money I am holding for now, about $700 . I was hoping he's go into detox and treatment, rather than blow the money and OD, and perhaps with disastrous results.
Unfortunately he can't handle the lack of structure and freedom now. I still see rehab better than the streets.
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