Addiction v. Cancer
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Originally Posted by Hechosedrugs 
I could go on a loooong tangent about diseases as a result of poor lifestyle choices. I get very frustrated with family members who criticize my aunt and I (practically the only members of the family who make a conscious effort to eat healthy and exercise) for being "too extreme", "too picky", or "obsessive". If we were to comment on their choices, all hell would break loose. But they go on and on. And they're all very sick- but they refuse to admit that we're onto something. They're still buying the "everything is fine in moderation" shtick. We just happen to have the good genes. It's not that we forego the cheesecake and hot dogs- it's our good genes. And we sit there listening to their latest medical fiascos and can't say a word- but there's no denying that they brought at least some of these issues on themselves. I mean, if they had lung cancer we could most certainly get away with saying, "stop smoking". But anything to do with food is just so darn touchy. And then I bring my kids around and they want to feed them all the same junk that's making them sick. And I can't even get away with, "Wait until after dinner," or "I think they've had enough cake, cookies and ice cream," because it's so very extreme, you know. Anyway, as you can see, I agree with much of what's been said.
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Hmmm . . . interesting thoughts all.
I appreciate both Nytepassion and Centered3's perspective. I've probably heard both before from addicts/alcoholics i.e. 1) "Thinking of it as a disease would have given me an excuse to continue drinking" and 2) "Thinking of it as a disease gave me a break from the shame that perpetuated the drinking".
Although addicts/alcoholics have some commonalities each is unique and so the recovery and mindset have to be different. I've been thinking that even different cases of ovarian cancer would be different and the different patients would respond differently to the same treatment.
As a codependent and also a depressive (another condition/disease), I figure each of us has to fight through by trying different things, sticking with what works and chucking the concepts that don't.
I appreciate both Nytepassion and Centered3's perspective. I've probably heard both before from addicts/alcoholics i.e. 1) "Thinking of it as a disease would have given me an excuse to continue drinking" and 2) "Thinking of it as a disease gave me a break from the shame that perpetuated the drinking".
Although addicts/alcoholics have some commonalities each is unique and so the recovery and mindset have to be different. I've been thinking that even different cases of ovarian cancer would be different and the different patients would respond differently to the same treatment.
As a codependent and also a depressive (another condition/disease), I figure each of us has to fight through by trying different things, sticking with what works and chucking the concepts that don't.
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Originally Posted by alcoholics wife
As Immanuel Kant says, "the idea of moral responsibility is meaningless unless rationality and free will were assumed".
One thought I've had about morality (or maybe I mean virtue. I'm not sure what the difference is) I've wanted to ask someone and AW you might be the one.
Can a personal quality be considered virtuous or moral if there is no temptation present? For example, a sugary diet and sexual promiscuity has absolutely no temptation for me. I didn't choose this for myself; I just seem to be wired this way. On the other hand, getting off the couch and getting exercise is the best thing for my depression and very hard for me to do.
I'm trying to apply Kant to the above thoughts.
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Love this discussion!
When I made the comparison, I did not make it in the categorically imperative sense of "addiction is a disease such as cancer" absolutely and unconditionally. (Thanks for mentioning Kant! He's great but not the only philosopher I find of value.) I certainly don't see addiction as a disease that one cannot understand and overcome.
It's interesting to see how these kinds of discussions tend to get pulled into polarizations, as if the disease theory must mean addicts are absent of free will or choice, therefore actions of addicts are to be excused, versus the older theory of addiction means addicts freely choose to behave as they do, therefore actions of the addicts deserve punishment.
When I made the comparison, I did not make it in the categorically imperative sense of "addiction is a disease such as cancer" absolutely and unconditionally. (Thanks for mentioning Kant! He's great but not the only philosopher I find of value.) I certainly don't see addiction as a disease that one cannot understand and overcome.
It's interesting to see how these kinds of discussions tend to get pulled into polarizations, as if the disease theory must mean addicts are absent of free will or choice, therefore actions of addicts are to be excused, versus the older theory of addiction means addicts freely choose to behave as they do, therefore actions of the addicts deserve punishment.
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alterity, I know I struggle with gray area so very much. I am a very "right or wrong, black or white" type of person. And in reality, weather dealing with addiction, disease, or mental illness, sometimes it falls in the middle.
Thank you for sharing this thought provoking thread!
Thank you for sharing this thought provoking thread!
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Originally Posted by Bekindalways
Hmmm . . .I think Kant makes a great point here. One thought I've had about morality (or maybe I mean virtue. I'm not sure what the difference is) I've wanted to ask someone and AW you might be the one. Can a personal quality be considered virtuous or moral if there is no temptation present? For example, a sugary diet and sexual promiscuity has absolutely no temptation for me. I didn't choose this for myself; I just seem to be wired this way. On the other hand, getting off the couch and getting exercise is the best thing for my depression and very hard for me to do. I'm trying to apply Kant to the above thoughts.
rational principle that governs or should govern moral behaviour should always act in such a way that maxims governing our moral decisions and could be used as a guide for everyone else's moral behaviour.
"I should never act except in such a way that I can also will that my maxims should become a universal law" ~ Kant
According to Kant though, most people don't follow these moral rules.
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Arthur Schopenhauer is another interesting philosopher. He believed that the will to survive is a blind, aimless force. "Most people do not cling to life because it is pleasant but rather because they fear death. Therefore will to survive is the cause of everything, to deny it is to flirt with nothingness. Coming as close as possible to nonexistence is as close as one can get to not being totally controlled by one's will" (I guess this is what's meant by "hitting rock bottom").
"Powerful, irrational forces are natural part of human existence, humans can and should rise above them. With great efforts, humans are capable of approaching nirvana, a state characterized by freedom from irrational cravings. Relief or escape from irrational forces within us can be attained by immersing ourselves in activities that are not need-related and therefore cannot be frustrated or satisfied. Irrational (unconscious) forces are prime motivators for human behaviour and the best we can do is to minimize their influence."
"Powerful, irrational forces are natural part of human existence, humans can and should rise above them. With great efforts, humans are capable of approaching nirvana, a state characterized by freedom from irrational cravings. Relief or escape from irrational forces within us can be attained by immersing ourselves in activities that are not need-related and therefore cannot be frustrated or satisfied. Irrational (unconscious) forces are prime motivators for human behaviour and the best we can do is to minimize their influence."
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My original issue is that someone else's addiction does put me in harm's way, while someone else's cancer does not.
As in, being specifically told, "When my dealer gets out of jail, he's going to be coming looking for me. I owe him hundreds. I was slinging for him. He may kill us."
As in, having to hide my own life-saving medications.
As in, waking up to someone passed on my couch, their cigarette lighting the pillow up.
As in, fights where things were thrown all about and guns were pulled.
My personal cancer, though? My cancer is genetic but aggravated by excess.
As in, being specifically told, "When my dealer gets out of jail, he's going to be coming looking for me. I owe him hundreds. I was slinging for him. He may kill us."
As in, having to hide my own life-saving medications.
As in, waking up to someone passed on my couch, their cigarette lighting the pillow up.
As in, fights where things were thrown all about and guns were pulled.
My personal cancer, though? My cancer is genetic but aggravated by excess.
Last edited by WeakGirl; 07-14-2016 at 09:09 PM. Reason: I'm an idiot sometimes. lol
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Originally Posted by WeakGirl
My original issue is that someone else's addiction does put me in harm's way, while someone else's cancer does not.
As in, being specifically told, "When my dealer gets out of jail, he's going to be coming looking for me. I owe him hundreds. I was slinging for him. He may kill us."
As in, having to hide my own life-saving medications.
As in, waking up to someone passed on my couch, their cigarette lighting the pillow up.
As in, fights where things were thrown all about and guns were pulled.
My personal cancer, though? My cancer is genetic but aggravated by excess.
As in, being specifically told, "When my dealer gets out of jail, he's going to be coming looking for me. I owe him hundreds. I was slinging for him. He may kill us."
As in, having to hide my own life-saving medications.
As in, waking up to someone passed on my couch, their cigarette lighting the pillow up.
As in, fights where things were thrown all about and guns were pulled.
My personal cancer, though? My cancer is genetic but aggravated by excess.
I see the idea of addiction as a disease as a paradigm that is helpful for some users in recovery. As I noted before, thinking of addiction as a disease is not particularly helpful for codependents. Hmm . . .could it be helpful to think of codependency as a disease?
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Originally Posted by alcoholics wife
Arthur Schopenhauer is another interesting philosopher. He believed that the will to survive is a blind, aimless force. "Most people do not cling to life because it is pleasant but rather because they fear death. Therefore will to survive is the cause of everything, to deny it is to flirt with nothingness. Coming as close as possible to nonexistence is as close as one can get to not being totally controlled by one's will" (I guess this is what's meant by "hitting rock bottom").
"Powerful, irrational forces are natural part of human existence, humans can and should rise above them. With great efforts, humans are capable of approaching nirvana, a state characterized by freedom from irrational cravings. Relief or escape from irrational forces within us can be attained by immersing ourselves in activities that are not need-related and therefore cannot be frustrated or satisfied. Irrational (unconscious) forces are prime motivators for human behaviour and the best we can do is to minimize their influence."
"Powerful, irrational forces are natural part of human existence, humans can and should rise above them. With great efforts, humans are capable of approaching nirvana, a state characterized by freedom from irrational cravings. Relief or escape from irrational forces within us can be attained by immersing ourselves in activities that are not need-related and therefore cannot be frustrated or satisfied. Irrational (unconscious) forces are prime motivators for human behaviour and the best we can do is to minimize their influence."
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Originally Posted by Bekindalways
Hmm . . .could it be helpful to think of codependency as a disease?
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Originally Posted by Bekindalways
Can a personal quality be considered virtuous or moral if there is no temptation present? For example, a sugary diet and sexual promiscuity has absolutely no temptation for me.
We haven't all faced the same levels of temptation. I can tell you right now that if I ever, ever, ever tried meth, I would be swiftly addicted. There's too much about it that appeals to me. Fortunately, my fear of addiction has kept me from ever tempting fate. But fear is not moral superiority.
On the other hand, I don't think alcohol appeals enough to be a threat to me. I like to be sharp and in control. There are drinks I enjoy but I'm not tempted to drink often or in excess.
Neither is about moral superiority. I just happen to be fearful of the one and untempted by the other. Some people have never even been in the situation and don't know what they would do.
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Originally Posted by WeakGirl
Codependency itself is actual considered a non-organic mental illness, is it not? (As in a learned mental illness rather than one from physiological causes...)
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soooo, whats the solutions? whats the solutions for the diseases of codependency and enabling?
the longer I focus on the problem of the addict the longer I stay sick myself.
the longer I focus on the problem of the addict the longer I stay sick myself.
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https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...0516091547.htm
Just wanted to share this good starting point for health resources.
There are many similar articles on lifestyle and mood (food-mood connection).
Just wanted to share this good starting point for health resources.
There are many similar articles on lifestyle and mood (food-mood connection).
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Originally Posted by alterity
No, it is not. Otherwise, it would be in the DSM.
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Originally Posted by Bekindalways
Well, I would argue that a disease/condition/disorder can exist even if it hasn't been studied, classified and listed by professionals . . . no disrespect meant to the American Psychiatric Association
Apologies and I promise to have another cup of coffee before posting more.
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