Manipulation and Control

[winnie12]

Cassandra in my experience yes that is manipulation. Its form is more passive agressive and it works well on very giving people and codies. (do some research on passive agressive personalities and see if those trends fit your ex.)

my son uses that tactic all the time with me - he learned it from my ex. when i get upset he says - i didnt ask you to do this and he's right. he never asked me to do it so to him that means i cant complain. everything must turn around to be my fault in his mind - because if he sees something as his fault then he will have to deal with his problems. if he comes home because i ask him to or bail him out then in his mind i am willing to deal with him as he is and he doesnt have to change. if he asks me to come home and i agree then he has to deal with it on my terms. they use our love against us - they use our empathy against us - they use our giving nature against us. Its not that we cant ever give to them - but we have to give on our terms not theirs.

The way I deal with it now is that when he starts whining about a situation I say "that's sad for you" "so what are you going to do" "yeah that sure sounds like its going to be hard on you." I dont give him advice on what to do to get out of it and I dont offer my help - I've done enough for him there's no way I'm offering to do more. If he comes to me and says he has a problem, needs my help then it gives me the opportunity to say yes or no - if yes then I can easily set boundaries. I say no a lot now and tell him he'll have to find out how to accomplish these things on his own. They want us to save them - they want us to go back to the doormat role so that they dont have to change or help themselves.

[dogged]

Manipulation is whenever you are second guessing as to wether it is or not, everyone is capable of manipulation or not and many peope do it on a daily basis to get what they want..its human nature, but the moment of clarity is the addict uses it for eveything, that is thier MO..do only what you feel comfortable with, giving him a few cig is no big deal, giving him a place to live is..or giving money, the only way i judged to see if my ex was working his recovery or not is if he would take responsibility with his choices?? if he didnt then i know he wasnt working any program..it didnt matter what he thought he was dfoing for himself in recovery..it was what I NEEDED to see happen and behaviors to change before i would consider anyhting

[winnie12]

Cassandra one question - do you know the line between something being his problem and something being yours? Right now is this your problem? if its not then why should you be responsible to solve the problem. If you do help to solve his problem it then becomes your problem and then you have to deal with the consequences not him.

[cassandra2]

Originally Posted by winnie12

if he asks me to come home and i agree then he has to deal with it on my terms. they use our love against us - they use our empathy against us - they use our giving nature against us. Its not that we cant ever give to them - but we have to give on our terms not theirs.

The way I deal with it now is that when he starts whining about a situation I say "that's sad for you" "so what are you going to do" "yeah that sure sounds like its going to be hard on you." I dont give him advice on what to do to get out of it and I dont offer my help - I've done enough for him there's no way I'm offering to do more. If he comes to me and says he has a problem, needs my help then it gives me the opportunity to say yes or no - if yes then I can easily set boundaries. I say no a lot now and tell him he'll have to find out how to accomplish these things on his own. They want us to save them - they want us to go back to the doormat role so that they dont have to change or help themselves.

You are so right winnie. If I ask/beg him to come home then it dissovles all of his responsibility to change anything (in his mind). Like you said if I ask him to come home then its like saying I accept you the way you are. Good Point.

I really feel like I can make it through this if I can "see" this behavior then I dont feel guilty or sad or want to help him because I can see what he is doing.

This am we got over 9 inches of snow. I dug my van out for 20 minutes. Braved the snow covered roads and I get to his house and he says "oh what you cant keep her (the baby) for a couple of hours?" I said that I have to go to work. When he shoveled a way to my van he opens the door and says "its a snow emergency" Ok ya but work doesnt close. I work in a hospital.

He was mad because his sister stayed home from work today and they fight. So he is mad because now he has to sit there with her all day. So he is taking it out on me because again in his mind its my fault that this is his life.

I didnt tell him to move in with his sister. He thought it was a GREAT idea. I didnt tell him to abuse his pills. He thought that was a great idea.

So as long as I can see the manipulation it is easy for me NOT TO WANT HIM BACK. Until he starts to make REAL visual changes there is nothing I can do for him. He has to do it for himself. That may or may not ever happen.

Thanks winnie. Your advice is sound. I see it when I look at it from your perspective......

[cassandra2]

Originally Posted by winnie12

Cassandra one question - do you know the line between something being his problem and something being yours? Right now is this your problem? if its not then why should you be responsible to solve the problem. If you do help to solve his problem it then becomes your problem and then you have to deal with the consequences not him.

Yes, I see all of these things as being his problem because I know his has options. They may not be good options but he has them. Now whether or not he choses to look at it that way is his problem.

I just want to be able to see the manipulation as exactly that. When I see it, like I said before, then I dont feel like I have to SOLVE his problems because he made these decisions. I told him what he had to do to remedy this situation he doesnt want to do that so therefore its not an issue for me.

It makes me feel better telling myself its manipulation vs telling myself that he doesnt love us anymore. If that makes sense....

[Limiya]

I find this thread very interesting. Reminds me of a few things my abf would sometimes do to make me feel like things were my fault.

Several times when i would complain about his behaviour or his addiction he'd throw at me 'Well i told you i wasn't perfect when we met. So what do you expect?'
Of course i couldn't say anything in response.
Or i would be tired at 4am and want to sleep, but he wants to stay up longer than his friends and drink and use more drugs. As soon as i'd mention wanting to go home, he'd throw me 'You're younger than me and you can't stay up? The more you tell me you're tired, the longer i'll stay up. If you just enjoy yourself and stay up i will soon go home.'
I would feel so resentful and feel like a fool.
These are little things i don't stand for anymore.

He is obviously wanting you to offer to help. Then he can say 'Wel you offered' when it all goes wrong. If he needs help with anything, let him ASK YOU directly and then you can lay down your bounderies.
It sounds like he is hinting rather than askin for your help of advice.

Stay strong
~Limiya~

[winnie12]

cassandra anytime you feel pressure to do something you really dont want to do or have already said you wont do then that should put up a red flag that your being manipulated or may be manipulated. just keep saying no when its not something you want. I think we are all guilty of manipulating people at times but when it comes to your ex you just have to have a line clearly drawn of what you will and will not do and if you feel him trying to nudge you over that line then just plant your feet firmly and say No. You have to think of what is best for yourself and your child not what is best for a grown man that should be not only taking care of himself but being a benefit to your lives.

The addict needs us but is incapable of loving us. They see us as a means to an end. I just dont think that love has much to do with it. My son loves me - I know he does but he is incapable of showing it becuase when he looks at me all he sees is what i can do for him.

[anvilhead]

with his future plans being so iffy and up in the air, ok virtually non-existent, i might suggest you work on a Plan B for someone watching the baby........the environment at his sister's does not sound healthy and conducive to a small one dependent upon adults to act like adults......he simply may not be the best option......certainly not a lot of evidence that shows he is working towards providing a stable and secure situation for himself, much less anybody else........i've found it's best for MY OWN LIFE to not bank on others to provide me with support when they cannot even support themselves....

[cassandra2]

It just seems so stupid. To beat around the bush and to get someone to do something because you dont have the nads to ask for it.

I am not a mind reader. Like I said he knows what he needs to do and the only person that can do that is him. I just keeping saying to myself that it doesnt have to be like this. But for him I guess it does.

I just dont understand why he would want to continue living in this world that offers him nothing. No family, no future, no happiness, nothing that is worth having...

That seems so hopeless. He says that he is talking in his group and I know that is bs because he is still isolating himself from everyone and life's problems.....

Just makes me sad sometimes because he was never like this before. Starting to lose a little hope for him.....

[outtolunch]

Originally Posted by cassandra2

I just dont understand why he would want to continue living in this world that offers him nothing. No family, no future, no happiness, nothing that is worth having...

This is, in a nutshell, the circular life of most addicts. There remains nothing more important than getting high or at least not feeling sick.

Anvilhead offered the most practical advise, that is finding alternative childcare. Many hospitals provide this for their employees, because of the challenges of three shifts. Perhaps your hospital is one of them.

Securing alternative childcare is probably going to be a milestone in your own recovery, when the time is right for you to do so.

[Kallista]

Originally Posted by cynical one

[b]


6) If you have a headache an emotional manipulator will have a brain tumor! No matter what your situation is the emotional manipulator has probably been there or is there now - but only ten times worse. It’s hard after a period of time to feel emotionally connected to an emotional manipulator because they have a way of de-railing conversations and putting the spotlight back on themselves. If you call them on this behavior they will likely become deeply wounded or very petulant and call you selfish - or claim that it is you who are always in the spotlight. The thing is that even tho you know this is not the case you are left with the impossible task of proving it. Don’t bother - TRUST your gut and walk away!

This happened to me, almost literally.

It wasn't a brain tumor, it was a tumor on my ovary. Before I had surgery to remove a tumor on my ovary, and my alcoholic/addicted mother told me 1) it was just a cyst, 2) I was being a baby about it, and 3) she had polycystic ovary syndrome when she was my age and it was much worse than what I had.

I was so effin' mad. After I blew up, she threw a huge emotional fit because she was "scared of losing her only daughter." My brother spent an enormous amount of time talking her down from that fit. She had a huge emotional scene at church, asking people to pray for her(!) because was "losing her only daughter." (She didn't ask anyone to pray for me, or her grandkids, or my husband. Just her. Which is pretty funny and over the top when you think about it.)

At our house, we call it "the Mom Show." We're all just props in the Mom Show.

(I'm fine, btw. It's all gone now.)

[hello-kitty]

So let me get this straight. If he hints around to what his problem is and swoop in and fix it or beg him to come home then to him it looks as if he is coming back on his terms. Meaning he doesnt have to do anything. This probably also would free him up to say to his family that I needed him to come and help me at home with the kids because I am going to school working etc.

Am I right?

YES! You are right. And this is what my addict ex does too. He hints around at problems so I will swoop in and fix them for him. That's just what he does.

It's my job not to fix his problems so he can learn to fix them himself. That is how I can help him. I must hold back. It's hard. But I can't fix this for him. His problem is him. Not his circumstances. It's him.

[JMFburns]

I haven't read through the entire thread, printed it to read at home later though!

But my thought was the stupid phone . . . my AS is not allowed to call my home (my daughter has a restraining order & I changed my phone # and made it unlisted - go Joan!) so calling at my work is his only way to get ahold of me. But . . . I told him yesterday that he needs to get his life on track, that I couldn't continue to have any contact with him until he got some help, got his life on track. So today I am fearing the phone ringing . . . it hasn't yet and I've got to move past the fear. He knows how hard it is for me to ignore the ringing phone and I proclaim each day to not answer any number I don't know (pay phones = AS.) But he still makes the call! And I still fail every dang day! Not today, not so far - I deserve this victory!

Anyway . . . it popped in my head and seemed like manipulation to me . . . maybe not.
Joan

[cassandra2]

Originally Posted by JMFburns

!

Anyway . . . it popped in my head and seemed like manipulation to me . . . maybe not.
Joan

Joan,

I am learning rather quickly now, that if they know it hurts you or they know they can get to you it probably is manipulation.

I saw my counselor today. This was my first session. He said that my ex is filled with alot of anger. He is angry especially at me. So through the anger he is manipulating me and trying to control me because it makes him feel better.

So I feel better that atleast its not made up in my mind....

[Alaia]

Originally Posted by imallright

My experience has been that the addict will work on making me feel like I am being cold, uncaring, selfish when I have tried to take care of me. It is a subtle and sometimes not so subtle attempt at looking like he is doing all that he can.... being the "good guy", but I am not willing to help him out.

My ex-abf did the same thing, and I fell for it a few times, till I learned better. I haven't read everyone's responses yet, IMO it sounds like he might have broken some rules or used while @ his sisters house and she is kicking him out for his actions.

[Alaia]

Originally Posted by cynical one

Eight Easy Ways to Spot an Emotional Manipulator

Someone should make that a sticky in this forum.

[loner1968]

UGH! My X was a professional emotional manipulator. Cynical, You must know him because it seems you wrote that whole thing about him!!!
Sometimes the tactics are so very subtle that you won't see it. Him asking you for a few smokes seems innocent enough. But it was not innocent. It was a tactic. Can you figure out why I say that or what it accomplished for him?
It was much more than you just giving him a smoke. It was simple and effective manipulation. So what if you only had one left. You gave it to him. Its a smoke but ya know what? Its gonna become more and more.

He is working you and he knows how. They take any little thing we ever confided in them or trusted them with and they USE it as ammo. This top post is so disturbingly accurate it is freaking me out.

What you have to grasp is that right now, at this point in time, every single thing he does and says is manipulation. EVERYTHING! I had to learn this on my own and man was it hard and it almost drove me insane.

There are things he will say and do that might make you think "Now I'm just being petty and paranoid..there is no way someone would try that" Guess what? He will!

He wants back in your house and he wants to control you and he is right now because you are trying really hard to figure him out and he is probably sitting there waiting for you to crack. The best and hardest thing you could do now is to ignore it. Just have as little contact as possible with him . I know you have a daughter so you have to have some contact.

[cassandra2]

Originally Posted by Alaia

My ex-abf did the same thing, and I fell for it a few times, till I learned better. I haven't read everyone's responses yet, IMO it sounds like he might have broken some rules or used while @ his sisters house and she is kicking him out for his actions.

The only rule he broke was in his delusion of thinking his oxy script also doubled as a paycheck and he agreed to pay half of all the expenses with his sister. But he kinda gets off the hook with the rest of the family for that because everyone is looking at his sister like "duh, he doesnt have a job why would you think that he could pay any bills?"

But I am sure in his mind that too is my fault.

[cassandra2]

Originally Posted by loner1968

The best and hardest thing you could do now is to ignore it. Just have as little contact as possible with him . I know you have a daughter so you have to have some contact.

This is the ONLY safe angle that at this point I can take. I cannot take the game playing anymore. My feelings get hurt over and over. I read somewhere that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results....

I have limited contact now. I do not go into his apartment to talk to him. I dont even get out of my van. He was yapping this morning when I dropped the baby off and I just smiled and looked at our daughter and said bye baby mommy loves you see you on monday. That burns his butt when I dont even give him the satisfaction of getting upset with him. I just have to stay on this course. I cant afford EMOTIONALLY to get involved with his bs.....

[cassandra2]

Well today I again witnessed manipulation. I had dropped the baby off to the ex yesterday. She has been sick all week with a viral rash. On Thursday she started having diarreha according to the ex. So on Friday am when the baby woke up she indeed had diarreha. Well I thought that its part of the virus and its going through the process.

So bright and early this am I get a call from the ex....The baby has been up all night puking and crapping her brains out do you want to take her to urgent care or what should I do. I told him I would call the doc. Called the doc they said give her bread, bananas, applesauce, no diary, no juice etc for three days if she isnt better give us a call. So I call him back and told him that now suddenly he is sick and has really bad congestion so bad that I can barely understand what he is saying (10 mins before he sounded fine).

He was trying to get me to say oh I will come get her if you are soooo sick.....Well I didnt. You wanted to live this life. You wanted to be on your own and take care of your kids. You wanted her every other weekend now step up and deal with it.....

How many times have I been up all night with the kids because they were sick. I couldnt call him and expect him to help.....

Jerk....And the sad thing is that he has so much control over me that I am sitting here feeling GUILTY for not going and picking up my baby.......

[outtolunch]

Originally Posted by cassandra2

Jerk....And the sad thing is that he has so much control over me that I am sitting here feeling GUILTY for not going and picking up my baby.......

He cannot take from you, what is not offered. Only thing you can control, is your reaction.

Rule of thumb....if you feel guilty, you are being manipulated. Stop feeling guilty and manipulation is not efffective.

[NeedingHelp7]

So I call him back and told him that now suddenly he is sick and has really bad congestion so bad that I can barely understand what he is saying (10 mins before he sounded fine).

Mine does that too. He missed 4 visits last month, because he was sick.

Sons dad has court ordered visit today 4-7pm. He called a week ago and said he would be working the 3-11pm shift now on Sat. He asked if the visit could be done 9-12 or 10-1pm, he preferred 10-1pm. So I said okay 10-1pm is fine but I would need the schedule change in writing, and his lawyer to contact my lawyer.

Son waited in his chair this morning 10 - 10:40 am this morning with his coat hat and gloves on waiting for his dad. No show. Son called dad at 10:45 asking why he was late. Dad said he was getting ready and would be over. I said dad can't come now (he has a 1/2 leeway to be late and that would be past 11am). His dad said he didn't have anything in writing, and only a phone message to his lawyer. I will not let son out the door anyway at any other time other that 4-7pm with his father unless it is in writing because of a court order.

The games and manipulation for visitation have never ended. I just choose not to be drawn into the drama, but to see son wait and dad not show is sad. Dad has sabotaged visit days from the beginning.

We'll see if he shows today at 4pm, and catch him in his own game.

You wanted to live this life. You wanted to be on your own and take care of your kids. You wanted her every other weekend now step up and deal with it.....

good thinking Cassandra.

[anvilhead]

i'm gonna take a slightly different tack here and speak purely from my own experience.....when renee was little, if she was serously ill i didn't ship her off to anyone any longer than absolutely necessary (ie for work etc) - it had nothing to do with manipulation or whether her dad wanted to take her or was capable, the only way i could assure she was properly looked after and on her way back to good health was if she was in MY care. if she already had a virus and then developed vomiting and diarrehea i sure as heck wouldn't have just dropped her off at her dad's! or gramma's, or cousin margaret, not JUST cuz it was their weekend and i wanted to prove a point....for me first and foremost it was always what is in Renee's best interest, the rest of us be damned.........

[NeedingHelp7]

Annville, that fact that after she called the Dr. and they informed what to do for the child. She called him back to tell him what to do feed bananas, rice, no juice etc....then "all of a sudden" dad became sick. He may have also exaggerated the sickness of the child. I agree with Cassandra, but I also agree with you. Maybe a private call to the sister in law would be in order, to see if she has witnessed the child "puking her brains out" all night.

[cassandra2]

Thank you NH. I just got off the phone with the ex again and suddenly he is well. He said she needs to go to the dr and get treated for the flu. I explained the dr said its viral meeds to run its course. We hung up. I felt guilty called back and asked if he wanted me to come get her he said no. IF she was sick, where I truly felt that she needed to be in my care then she would be. THis is regular childhood diarreaha and there is no reason why she shouldnt be in the care of her father.