Choice?

Old 08-16-2017, 07:02 AM
  # 21 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Seren View Post

So going with the mental illness/mental disorder idea, it seems to me that it is treated differently than other mental disorders. Perhaps the sheer number of people who suffer from it makes it so much different in the way that it is perceived. Take something like OCD, for example. Is there a 12-step program for that? It seems to me that OCD is treated using some combination of CBT and anti-depressants. So is there another mental disorder that could be compared directly to addiction (other than the codependent behaviors--which I have always understood to be learned behaviors rather than having a biological component)?

Substance Abuse Disorder (addiction, alcoholism) however you label it IS treated in the same way that most other compulsive disorders are - recommended treatments use combinations of therapy, CBT, medications, etc.

12 step programs are available for a lot of things if a person wants to use that approach: Alcohol, Compulsive Spending, Codependency, Kleptomania, Shoplifting, Self Mutilating, Overeating, Drugs, Sex, Love, Clutters Anonymous


And all this, I suppose, brings me back to the question of the choices faced by those of us with addicted loved ones. I know that my stepson certainly laid the guilt on quite thickly when he did not get what he wanted and was finally asked to move out. I firmly believe that by making my stepson fend for himself, he may eventually have a chance at recovery. Still, I would not make the same choices if, for example, my sister was diagnosed with schizoaffective disorder or ptsd--she hasn't, this is just a small thought experiment. I would likely do all I could to assist her in getting the help she needed.

I use my sister as an example because she is an alcoholic/addict in recovery. During her run and gun days, we (the rest of the family), did not spend much time around her. The primary reason being how her behavior affected the rest of us with drama and chaos. I suppose I simply would not expect quite the same sort of drama and chaos to enter my life if my sister were diagnosed with another disorder.

So my choice, as a family member, boils down to how much chaos and drama, anxiety and illness I will allow to enter my own life due to someone else's mental disorder.

That is a difficult line to find for many, and based on an idea that addiction is a complex mental disorder, it makes it that much harder to the loved ones of an addicted person to make the changes needed to protect themselves due to the guilt that they feel.

Well, anyway, just my ramblings for the evening. Thank you all so much for your opinions and experiences. It has given me a lot to think about!
Very good points you brought up here Seren, and basically I think the actions taken by family depend on 1. their own beliefs 2. the amount of dysfunction that enters into the relationship/family as a result of the substance abuse.

Helping is also a really hot topic on this forum. Some say family can do nothing to help, but others say family holds great influence and can help encourage treatment and behavior modification. Some say a person has to hit bottom and choose help on their own, and others say no change is a process and can be nurtured especially by a Dr/Psychologist. And as you said yourself.. if your sister suffered from mental illness you would do all you could... even if she was mentally ill and didnt realize she needed medical care? so why would anyone criticize a family member who views addiction as a mental health issue and not a simple choice? Truthfully on an open peer support forum - all views should be respected because one can dig up evidence to support either approach. And we are here to support the family member, not the approach they use I hope.

I kept encouraging my husband to get treatment, and I was concerned about the quality of care. Just like I would have been if it was any other illness. I have no regrets over that. I was never pushed aside by his doctors but instead was kept informed, continuously educated, and offered my own support resources. I really appreciated that.

There was also a time in there before my husband got treatment where he was completely unstable and dangerous for me to be around. I had to step back and actually move out for a while. It was for my own health and sanity. That was a sad, hard choice to make.

To make matters more complex, as Celtic Zebra noted - behind substance abuse there are often other medical and psychological issues, as well as past trauma, abuse, personal loss and pain, underdeveloped coping skills, etc. that need to be dealt with.

Recently I saw a post on this forum which questioned the level of anger on this family forum. And I often think, while we are here to support the family member.. we know very little about the person in their life who brought them here or what struggles they themselves are dealing with. Often there is so much time spent diagnosing, critiquing, blaming, etc the person with the substance abuse disorder. Anger it appears is often used as a technique to motivate the family member to make choices and changes. Not sure this is healthy.

Where is the compassion for someone who has formed an addiction while dealing with PTSD, or past sexual abuse? When Ive visited Mental Health forums there is usually compassion for both of us which I also appreciate. This is someone I love, someone Im having a child with.

Choices are difficult when our life is affected by someone else behavior regardless of whats behind it. I have tried to understand what my husband is going through, to have compassion - but to also look at what I need and want for my life and future. Its not easy. My heart goes out to everyone here who is in this same situation.
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Old 08-16-2017, 09:29 PM
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Wonderful thread, if I may toss in my .02.

Originally Posted by Seren View Post
...I hope some of our double-triple winners will chime in here. ....
That would be me. ACA, al-anon, AA, diabetic, etc. etc. I qualify one way or another.

Originally Posted by Seren View Post
... "It's a disease, not a choice".....
The problem here is that the term "disease" is used differently by different groups of peeps for different purposes. The medical community, and the treatment centers, use the work "disease" to bill the insurance company. That is an entirely different concept that us lay persons use when talking about cancer, diabetes, etc.

I am going to use the word that was in use before the treatment centers came into being. The word used in the original "Big Book" of AA. That word was "alergy". That book went to great lengths to compare the chemical response that the human body has to alcohol against that of an alergy, such as an alergy to peanuts.

As a result of my genes, which gave me a messed up pancreas, I have a "disease" called "diabetes". As a diabetic I am alergic to sugar. I can have some very small amounts of it, if I am very careful to monitor my blood glucose, food intake, activity level, etc. I was born with these genes, I have no "choice"" in the matter.

Suppose I decide to binge on cheese-cake (one of my deepest character defects, I just crave cheese-cake 24hrs a day) and then go off and fly an airplane. My blood glucose will crash ( which is called "insulin shock"), the airplane will crash, and I will likely kill some people on the ground.

Then when they come to arrest me I will whine about diabetes being a "disease".

Having the genes is the disease, I have no choice there. Having the cheese cake is the choice.

Change the "diabetes" for "alcolism / addiction" and I think my perspective will make sense.

Originally Posted by Seren View Post
...they don't feel loved by their family members because ....
When I was active in my own addiction I had no interest at all in anybody's love. I wanted their money, home, ride, clothes, food, and anything else I could take for myself. I would explore and harass people until I found their weak spot and then exploit it. Most of the time it was some cute young thing at the local *****-tonk who needed somebody to rescue. I became very practiced at being rescue-able. Oh yes, love? Sure, I will love you if you enable me, or regale you with some long tale of woe and miserable childhood... or whatever works.

Originally Posted by Seren View Post
... So how do you respond to that 'accusation' of kicking someone when they are down?....
Nobody ever kicked me when I was down. I was never down. I was just horribly hung over, but if the words "don't kick me when I'm down" will get me another night on your couch I can run with that act. And if not then I'll just wander on down to that *****-tonk I mentioned earlier and find somebody who has a couch vacancy.

Mike
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Old 08-16-2017, 11:23 PM
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Originally Posted by aliciagr View Post
I think the topic of "choice" as its related to substance abuse will be answered in varying ways and is dependent on a individuals personal beliefs about addiction and recovery. When my husbands addiction was out of control I began seeing a Dr who specialized in addiction medicine, and I found it the best resource for me.

The whole idea of "choice" is tossed about a lot on this family forum. I think it creates a lot of anger in family members when they think someone is choosing to drink or use drugs. Which in turn means they are also choosing to exhibit the negative behaviors we are often exposed to. They are choosing to experience negative consequences like job loss, health issues, deteriorating relationships, legal trouble. Kinda hard not to be angry if a happy, stable home and family are set aside for someone opting to go down that road.

After doing a lot of Family Therapy with my husband, I believe when he started experimenting with substances it was part social/peer related as he was a teenager. There was no substance abuse in his family, but there was other dysfunction. He learned to cope with/avoid emotions by using substances and this blossomed when he was in college and it was a widely accepted behavior. But at one point, he had a severe negative consequence and he was able to stop at that point. For years... That is when our relationship developed.

But last year, when he started again.. it was again related to his emotions, coping mechanisms. But I truly feel the window of time where he was able to recognize negative consequences, had the ability to make changes on his own and stop the behaviors and the drug and alcohol use was very small. He lost control, and I believe it all happened in the brain. It was not lack of willpower, or his choosing a year of crazy disastrous events. This is where the Dr was able to help me understand. And while I wont get into this topic because its one that often brings on debate.. I can only say seek professional advice and learn about addiction.. I dont call it a disease... but I understand the medical concept because while addicted the brain function and pathways are altered, and it continues to change while the chemicals are flooding the brain. When the substances stop, then in most cases the brain will heal, new pathways will be developed over time.

But getting from one point to the other is really hard, and why so many people relapse. Others may say its a choice... they didnt want to change bad enough.... to me, its not that simple.

Think about this... do you know anyone overweight.. who eats to soothe ? Who says they want to lose weight, and tries but doesnt have much success? Im not even talking about food addiction.. but just slight behavior modification.. its hard and there are a lot of psychological and emotional components involved. Its just that the negative consequences, dysfunctional behaviors dont affect others as much.

It helps me put it all in perspective , helps me understand as family we often see many of the same "symptoms" when dealing with addiction. The guilt, shame, need to protect the addiction, the lies, warped thinking, watching the deterioration...

The professionals Ive dealt with say while negative consequences are important in promoting desire to change, but its not something you can rely on because the brain isnt processing these events normally at certain stages. People often need help.. and they need help to get the proper help. Its not one size fits all, at least from what I was advised.. and what I believe.

I helped my husband get help... Ive been criticized for it on this forum. Told it showed I was codependent and enabling him. LOL I dont care what people think, or what their beliefs are.. I had professional support back then and I have no regrets over that part. He was a mess, and needed help to stop. After ceasing substances he began to heal, could think more clearly, and began to have more control, reason and make better decisions. But he still needed support through his therapist, and his family. (he did not use 12 step support groups).

I HAD CHOICES ALL ALONG. I didnt have to go along for the journey. In our case, we had no children. I could have provided for myself, I have family support. I made unhealthy choices for myself in the beginning because this was something I never faced before. It was new, filled with emotions, fear, and my husbands behavior was something I had never experienced. I shut out my family because I was ashamed primarily. That was a huge mistake. I also stayed in the house with my husband when he was unstable and ended up being physically abused. I should have seen the instability and sensed the danger and left.. I did that finally when he was still in the depths of addiction. I turned to the wrong people - his dysfunctional family who made things worse due to their own coping skills... the one saving grace I had was finding professional help because I needed it to sort things out for myself.

I am separated from my husband temporarily again. He did a lot of damage when he was on his run and its taking time to rebuild the trust, and time for us both to process what happened and heal. Im not angry at him anymore.. I have compassion for what he went through, and Ive seen how coming to terms with it all has been incredibly painful for him. I dont think he is "pickled" and now damaged goods. He is human, has his own set of emotional, behavioral, psychological, medical issues... as do I.

I have choices and always have.. I am responsible for monitoring my own happiness. Im responsible for seeking help if I need it for my emotional, mental, physical health. Im soon to be a parent, and will be responsible for making sure my child has a healthy and happy home life, Im responsible for trying something new if what Im doing isnt working.
Thank you for the insightful post. I always resonate with your words. I too am not angry toward my qualifier despite some of the reprehensible things he has done while in addiction and continues to do. Do I believe it is healthy for me to stay at the cost it has been to my well being and personal goals? Probably not. But that is entirely separate for me than what his issues are. Leaving would be because he is simply unable at this time to meet the needs of the relationship. Is he a horrible rotten loser human being? Despite what I have shared, no. There is a light in there but it's rather dimmed. I have been blessed to have worked with a wonderful therapist who has helped me understand my own compassion despite what seems irrational to most. I have compassion for my qualifier who struggles with addiction, and a host of other issues that leave damaging marks on others. I have compassion for his inability to cope with pain. As my therapist calls it an arrested development. I accept he is not well nor ready just yet to try different treatments.

Unfortunately letting addicts "feel consequences" isn't really a fail-safe solution, nor is it argued to be (i.e.tough love). But what I've learned is that there is treatment out there once the addict is READY to take it. Not before. I use the term "ready" vs "willing". Once he is READY to search high and low on how to treat the disease and keep the intense cravings at bay, he can then begin to heal. (Now of course my mind wonders, is it possible to be so far gone the brain cannot make the choice to treat at all? A dooming if you will?)

So perhaps kind of like sugar...have you seen ppl try and kick that habit? It's grueling for weeks, months....and then one day, the part of the brain craving it so hard begins to heal and the further away from it they are...the weaker the craving goes.
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Old 08-17-2017, 04:12 AM
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Seren, this is an excellent thread with a great discussion of various views going on.

For now I am just reading, and pondering on whether my son has/had a choice or not and may respond later. I appreciate so many sharing so openly, it's a topic we each have considered many times over the years, I think.

Thank you.
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Old 08-17-2017, 05:25 AM
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"I became very practiced at being rescue-able. ....."

Very well said, Mike!

I think that the addict and the codependent are the Urim and Thummim of the underbelly of western culture. And for every addict who has discovered that sweet spot of controlling others, then developed it into a fine art, there are armies of codependents just itching to get in there and "help."
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Old 08-17-2017, 06:04 PM
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So how can we best protect ourselves from the chaos, stress, and anxiety of active addiction? Some of us have spent years being affected by the addiction of our loved ones--staying involved because we don't think they could possibly be manipulative if they truly love us.

How can the addict attempting to recover protect themselves from the controlling and manipulative people that *we* can allow ourselves to become? People we don't even recognize anymore...

How can we stop this dance before it becomes this "death spiral" in which both parties (regardless of the relationship) crash and whole lifetimes are lost to this struggle?
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Old 08-17-2017, 07:48 PM
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Lots of interesting info.
Mostly I can relate to "cunning, baffling & powerful" to the alcoholic & to the untreated al-anon.
Very sad for all
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Old 08-18-2017, 03:00 PM
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One reason why the disease model doesn't seem to fit alcoholism is that alcoholism manifests itself so strongly in the area of interpersonal functioning, in a way that diabetes or other disease do not. When I look at the questions people ask about alcoholics in their lives, it's almost always interpersonal behaviors that come up - lying, denial, outbursts of anger, etc. You don't see that on support boards for other diseases (the only exception that comes to mind in Alzheimer's or dementia - but I think dementia is broadly understood as a condition that is not of the afflicted person's making). The deficits in interpersonal functioning are almost a defining characteristic of the disease, and they wreak havoc on the people who are not "sick".

Alcoholism to me almost seems like a behavior disorder, like oppositional defiant disorder or hyperactivity in kids. Because alcoholism can be treated (if not cured) and because most alcoholics are not children or seniors with diminished mental capacity, it's maddening when they don't choose treatment, in a way that similar bad choices by people with Alzheimers or children with ODD are not (quite as) maddening.

With my ex, if he had simply consumed quarts of alcohol every day sitting by himself in the garage, even if he developed a physical dependence, as long as his interpersonal functioning was intact, his drinking would be a physiological problem, not a social one. Unfortunately, excessive drinking seems to almost inevitably be manifested by interpersonal deficits, and that's why I remain angry at my ex in a way that I would probably not be angry if he had, say, MS.
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Old 08-18-2017, 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Sasha1972 View Post
One reason why the disease model doesn't seem to fit alcoholism is that alcoholism manifests itself so strongly in the area of interpersonal functioning, in a way that diabetes or other disease do not. When I look at the questions people ask about alcoholics in their lives, it's almost always interpersonal behaviors that come up - lying, denial, outbursts of anger, etc. You don't see that on support boards for other diseases (the only exception that comes to mind in Alzheimer's or dementia - but I think dementia is broadly understood as a condition that is not of the afflicted person's making). The deficits in interpersonal functioning are almost a defining characteristic of the disease, and they wreak havoc on the people who are not "sick".

Alcoholism to me almost seems like a behavior disorder, like oppositional defiant disorder or hyperactivity in kids. Because alcoholism can be treated (if not cured) and because most alcoholics are not children or seniors with diminished mental capacity, it's maddening when they don't choose treatment, in a way that similar bad choices by people with Alzheimers or children with ODD are not (quite as) maddening.

With my ex, if he had simply consumed quarts of alcohol every day sitting by himself in the garage, even if he developed a physical dependence, as long as his interpersonal functioning was intact, his drinking would be a physiological problem, not a social one. Unfortunately, excessive drinking seems to almost inevitably be manifested by interpersonal deficits, and that's why I remain angry at my ex in a way that I would probably not be angry if he had, say, MS.
I would be mad, angry at my mother for choosing not to take her bipolar medication. I would not have to disturb my day to deal with her mental health issues. She had a choice to control not cure her health. If only she had made better choices maybe I wouldn't be so codependent.
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Old 08-18-2017, 05:18 PM
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I am a double winner, having lived with codependent and eating disorder behaviors since I was a little girl....certainly by the age of six if not before.

I took a training on trauma some time ago, and one thing that helped me was realizing that my addictive behaviors had at one point in my life served me and kept me safe. I did not grow up with active addiction, and overall grew up in a safe and stable home.....except it was unsafe to have emotions.

My eating disorder and my codependent behaviors allowed me to NOT deal with those emotions at the time, for a long time....and they allowed me to try and keep the status quo emotionally in my family. I believe my internal and external environment primed me for this behavior and that I frankly did not have a lot of choice at that time.

When I finally started to deal with my life it was because these maladaptive coping mechanisms were no longer serving me.....now they were not keeping me safe but were creating harm to me, and making me miserable......but it was hard for me to let go of what was known, familiar and had worked so well at one time.

Before I could even DEAL with the root causes of the behaviors I had to break through the wall of "support" that I had created to keep those maladaptive behaviors safe.

Like an oyster makes a pearl when irritated by a sand molecule. I had created walls around my poor coping (though not nearly as pretty as a pearl). They had to come down layer by layer, and only when I was ready and I felt like I had a choice in taking down a layer down was I successful in this process. Prior to this experience I felt like getting better was all a matter of will power, but without my recovery support and structure all the will power in the world would not have caught me when I leaped. I feel like I continue have the choice to choose recovery daily....especially when I had a misstep the day prior.

I have not always enjoyed the lessons this life has presented me with. I may not have a choice of the lessons, but I do have a choice of if I choose to learn or not from them....and the learning around my own recovery from an addiction and codependency has been the best thing I have ever done for me.

Healing from addiction and codependency (which for me is also an addiction) was about regularly choosing that I was important and that self-care did not mean selfish.
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Old 08-18-2017, 08:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Seren View Post
So how can we best protect ourselves from the chaos, stress, and anxiety of active addiction? Some of us have spent years being affected by the addiction of our loved ones--staying involved because we don't think they could possibly be manipulative if they truly love us.
Do you think there is a single answer to this for all family members and friends?

One thing Ive realized as of late, particularly through this forum and reading many post and replies by other family members. We are not alike. Just because someone else is a family member doesnt mean they can understand me or my situation in totality, and provide the answers to me.

Maybe that is why there is so many posts talking about the dysfunction we see due to the symptoms of our spouse/child? (lying, manipulation, physical fear, anger, sadness, disappointment, etc) most of us have those experiences and can relate.

But how we cope, process emotions, how we interact with our partner or child, what we feel is ethically right, or medically/emotionally helpful to us, or even agreeing on what addiction is and talking about it - I dont see one shoe fitting all of us by any means. To me this also means, its about 100% unlikely that all people who have a substance abuse disorder can relate to one another in totality. Just something I have been thinking about these last couple days.

I will say in terms of manipulation and love. This was answered easily for me when the Psychologist I went to for help explained. It goes back to the brain, the symptoms of addiction, coping mechanisms to continue using, and often even an effort on their part to try to maintain their relationships (have the cake and eat it too). Love isnt a factor when a person thinks they need a substance to survive and function. Like someone drowning, in their frenzy they will pull down the person who jumps in to try and save them.

Of course there is also that group of people who - how to say it - are just not good people to be around sober, not sober, or having never touched substances.

Originally Posted by Seren View Post
How can the addict attempting to recover protect themselves from the controlling and manipulative people that *we* can allow ourselves to become? People we don't even recognize anymore...
Dont think Ive ever seen this question posed here. Its a really good one ! What do you consider to be controlling and manipulative? And do you feel that you were with your own family member, and if so - in what way? What impact did it have on you, your family?

Originally Posted by Seren View Post
How can we stop this dance before it becomes this "death spiral" in which both parties (regardless of the relationship) crash and whole lifetimes are lost to this struggle?
Just curious as to what you have been doing? Are you in Alanon, do you attend therapy, etc ? Have you ever had a sense of peace in regards to the situation?

I think evening out my emotions, getting clarity on the situation through education, leaning on my support system, knowing I have options, and looking at what results are coming from things I do for myself, and the "interactions" I have with my husband. Learning to communicate while he was using and while in early recovery stages has been challenging but very helpful and rewarding. A little bit of space has also helped when needed. So like a thermometer. This makes me feel good, safe, happy, brings me peace, or no it doesnt. My relationship is better, worse, and what kind of impact is it having on him, if any. Through what I see, feel, and what he tells me when I listen.

Last edited by DesertEyes; 08-18-2017 at 09:37 PM. Reason: Fixed broken quote
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Old 08-18-2017, 08:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Sasha1972 View Post
One reason why the disease model doesn't seem to fit alcoholism is that alcoholism manifests itself so strongly in the area of interpersonal functioning, in a way that diabetes or other disease do not. When I look at the questions people ask about alcoholics in their lives, it's almost always interpersonal behaviors that come up - lying, denial, outbursts of anger, etc. You don't see that on support boards for other diseases (the only exception that comes to mind in Alzheimer's or dementia - but I think dementia is broadly understood as a condition that is not of the afflicted person's making). The deficits in interpersonal functioning are almost a defining characteristic of the disease, and they wreak havoc on the people who are not "sick".

Alcoholism to me almost seems like a behavior disorder, like oppositional defiant disorder or hyperactivity in kids. Because alcoholism can be treated (if not cured) and because most alcoholics are not children or seniors with diminished mental capacity, it's maddening when they don't choose treatment, in a way that similar bad choices by people with Alzheimers or children with ODD are not (quite as) maddening.

With my ex, if he had simply consumed quarts of alcohol every day sitting by himself in the garage, even if he developed a physical dependence, as long as his interpersonal functioning was intact, his drinking would be a physiological problem, not a social one. Unfortunately, excessive drinking seems to almost inevitably be manifested by interpersonal deficits, and that's why I remain angry at my ex in a way that I would probably not be angry if he had, say, MS.
I was thinking about making a thread on this show called my 600 pound life that airs on the learning channel.

Wow I would suggest people here look at that show because the food addiction.. it can be as devastating to a family as other substances . There is guilt and manipulation involved, lying, people who get to the point they need physical care, moods, anger. Women who have left, who wont allow children to visit, parents who struggle with helping and not enabling, or working along with medical treatments to provide support. there are financial hardships, shame and guilt on both sides. Food is used for coping, soothing, and one could say a person is cheating a spouse with hamburgers and pasta instead of drugs or alcohol. There are many family members who struggle with all kinds of issues due to their spouses or kids mental or physical health. A lot just depends on our feelings and beliefs about it all I think. As a side note I also know a spouse who left when their partner was sick with cancer. It was too much for that person. And how much of their time in life would be lost being in the battle which ultimately the partner was expected to lose? A selfish reason or self preservation? The care and support was left to other family members and friends.
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Old 08-19-2017, 03:12 AM
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Sasha and LifeRecovery, both of your posts offer special insights on this topic for me. Thanks to the 2 of you in particular as well as to all who've posted on this really useful thread.
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Old 08-19-2017, 11:14 AM
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When I was active in my own addiction I had no interest at all in anybody's love. I wanted their money, home, ride, clothes, food, and anything else I could take for myself. I would explore and harass people until I found their weak spot and then exploit it. Most of the time it was some cute young thing at the local *****-tonk who needed somebody to rescue. I became very practiced at being rescue-able. Oh yes, love? Sure, I will love you if you enable me, or regale you with some long tale of woe and miserable childhood... or whatever works.
Desert Eyes, you describe the thinking of an active alcoholic perfectly. I was the same when I drank. As Wilson points out we are selfish, self-centered in the extreme, have enormous egos coupled with low self esteem. My God, higher power and great love of my life was alcohol.

So how can we best protect ourselves from the chaos, stress, and anxiety of active addiction? Some of us have spent years being affected by the addiction of our loved ones--staying involved because we don't think they could possibly be manipulative if they truly love us.
An active alcoholic is incapable of love.....you are projecting feelings that don't exist. I see so many posts of people shocked when they leave an alcoholic, who quickly finds someone else. Alcoholics look for enablers and quickly replace one for another.
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Old 08-19-2017, 11:56 AM
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Thank you, Sasha, I appreciate how much you have been through and how hard you must have worked to get to the place you are now. I hope you have been getting the support you need both here and IRL.

Originally Posted by LifeRecovery
When I finally started to deal with my life it was because these maladaptive coping mechanisms were no longer serving me.....now they were not keeping me safe but were creating harm to me, and making me miserable......but it was hard for me to let go of what was known, familiar and had worked so well at one time.
I think I have seen this at work in my own life. The idea that something works--until it doesn't. That's when change can happen.

Originally Posted by LifeRecovery
Healing from addiction and codependency (which for me is also an addiction) was about regularly choosing that I was important and that self-care did not mean selfish.
This has been hard for me because I have certainly struggled with low self esteem. I have had the mindset of not being worthy of self-care. Many of us with Christian values believe that God is first, others next, self last. But that in no way means that we should allow ourselves to be abused and used up in helping others. Self care is important so that we can continue to help others--those that need, want, and ask for our help.

Originally Posted by aliciagr
Do you think there is a single answer to this for all family members and friends?
Heavens no! Addiction is very complicated. There is no one answer, but there are commonalities. I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't post only those experiences I've had that match what I have read from others here. I post my experience, and many here have been through the same thing.

My wish is that there were some way we could speak to and teach our children and grandchildren in order to help them avoid what we have suffered. But again, everyone has to make their own choice. Free will and all...

Originally Posted by aliciagr
Dont think Ive ever seen this question posed here. Its a really good one ! What do you consider to be controlling and manipulative? And do you feel that you were with your own family member, and if so - in what way? What impact did it have on you, your family?
I have been here for almost 9 years and have seen this discussion before. It is acknowledged by many recovering from their codie ways how controlling and manipulative and maladaptive our own coping mechanisms can become. One thing I have always believed is that we have to know our own limitations. For example, what if our addicted loved one becomes serious about recovery? What if they throw everything they have into meetings, counseling, if they not only talk the talk but walk the walk? After a year or more of true recovery, what if we still do not trust them at all? What if we are still anxious, angry, constantly questioning? Is it fair either to the recovering addict or to us to continue to torture one another? My own opinion is that it is not.

I come from a long line of controlling people. Early on as an adult, I recognized this in my family of origin (maternal side), and did not like it--but did not recognize it in myself. Later, thankfully, I did. My sister and mother, in particular, will ridicule my father and sometimes me, if we don't do what they think we should do. My sister and mother both give lip service to understanding that they cannot control what other people choose to do, but it still makes them very angry when the path chosen is not what *they* would choose. My sister and father and mother are sometimes not on speaking terms. I am far from perfect, but I am much better than I was.

Control is something I have written about on this board in the past.
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...3-control.html

I have also written about my own journey from resentment to compassion.
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...ompassion.html

My own story is available to read in my past threads here.
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Old 08-19-2017, 12:11 PM
  # 36 (permalink)  
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For me the difference is that if my AH diagnosed with diabetes or cancer, I would not torment myself with the illusion that if I just understood it enough and said the right things, I could help cure him. Or worry that he would hurt me, be destructive, manipulate or lie so he could have his cancer or diabetes. Or try and make me believe the cancer or diabetes was my fault.

The bottom line for me is start with self compassion. One has to trust in oneself to be supportive and loving to oneself first, before any insights can be made or denial broken through.

Once I saw the reality of my life (very difficult and it came in bits & pieces) and came to fully accept I had NO control over another human, I began to detach & errect boundaries to protect my emotional & physical wellbeing as much as possible while still married. It is a process, but I choose to focus on what helps me to be healthy and happy, recovering myself from
the dysfunction of living with an active alcoholic and for so many years not understanding the enormity and destruction.

The question of choice for me right now is to make choices that are
healthy for me and only allow what is constructive and compassionate in my life. I can suggest that my AH get help, realizing that he may not want to, and that is his choice. He has done it several times before and is functioning at a level that he could again.
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Old 08-19-2017, 01:13 PM
  # 37 (permalink)  
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good questions,seren and good replies with lots of insight.

as for the an alkie/ addict having a choice, welp, im in AA. the little doctor that loved drunks- doctor william silkworth- i believe had some input in the writingof the bb.
for those that havent heard of or know about doc, he worked with or talked with over 40,000 alcoholics in his lifetime. i havent read any study or read of anyone who had direct contact with as many alkies, so i tend to believe what he says.
when it comes to choice, its not a matter of me having a choice whether i drank or used. there were many,many times every instinct told me not to drink,yet i couldnt chose to not drink.
because i lost the POWER of choice in whether or not i drank. im thoroughly convinced i know exactly when that happened for me- the point i crossed into full blown alcoholism and no longer had the POWER of choice. soooooo many times i knew i shouldnt drink. sooooo many times i fought and fought not to drink, then said," ill just have 2." soooo many times once the first drink touched my lips i said to myself,"oh ****."
because i lost tbe POWER of choice- once i had a a drink
as far as the "disease" concept many use,idk what their definition of that is, but for me it refers to a spiritual disease,which the bb of AA uses that word once.
then its called a malady, which are the same i think?
to overcome alcoholism and addiction, it was necessary for me to find a power greater that myself that could help-a power not of this world. a spiritual power.
HOWEVER
before that could happen, i needed something that was mentioned above- a moment of clarity.that moment of clarity helped me realize alcohol and myself were the common denominators in all my problems.
THEN i had to WANT help.
THEN i had to be willing to do ANYTHING to overcome alcoholism and addiction- even if that meant standing on my head gargling peanutbutter.

another thing i believe- something the bb of aa mentions and i would say that, having been to hundreds of meetings and listening to a few alkies and addicts at those meetings,plus my own experience, is quite true:
the varying traits of an alcoholic/addict.
i wasnt just one way throught my active alcoholism/addiction years. very early on- in high school and a couple years after, i was a shy,unspoken young man(read fearfilled ,insecure....).alcohol would take me out of that shell. then there were a few years i was a cocky,arrogant,know-it-all SOB. i was heartless. i damaged quite a few marriages, my family, and anyone around me. i quit or got fired from some very good jobs because of it,too. because i was lookin out for #1.(read selfish,self centered,resentful,boastful.....)
then i crossed the line into full blown alcoholism. self esteem sunk lower.fears got worse, insecurities were huge. ........
and even then, i wasnt exactly one way through any lf those stages of alcoholism. i could SHOW love at times with absolutely no underlying motive, then go right back to being a selfish,self centered little *****.

then theres the mental and emotional disorders. many alkies/addicts have some form of underlying mental and/or emotional disorder. they are usually covered up by the alcohol or drugs. ive also seen a few misdiagnosed with some mental or emotional disorder because they were dishonest with their doctors about the alcohol and drugs.
and MANY of the do recover.
IF they WANT help and are WILLING to go to ANY length to recover.
even if that means standing on their head gargling peanutbutter.
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Old 08-19-2017, 04:18 PM
  # 38 (permalink)  
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I will have to look at some of your older posts Seren. I dont think Ive seen any, except for some reason I think Ive seen your name often when Ive been on the Newcomers section. I read there a lot even though I dont post often. Its been very helpful as Ive been going through this experience.
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Old 08-19-2017, 04:31 PM
  # 39 (permalink)  
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The issue of addiction is so complex and some of the al anon material around detachment and enabling I have found really useful. What I struggle with the most is choices that have been made by AW when intox and how much weighting the affect of alcohol guided / influenced them. Can a person regularly behave in such hurtful ways and solely point the blame at alcohol?

I feel I need to help my recovering AW (not just for the sake of the kids) but for the good years we had and care for her to be better. I now understand that the journey ahead will see us take seperate paths and mentally adjusting and preparing for that.

Great post Seren, that has triggered yet more reflection on one own journey.....
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Old 08-19-2017, 04:41 PM
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Originally Posted by NYCDoglvr View Post

An active alcoholic is incapable of love.....you are projecting feelings that don't exist. I see so many posts of people shocked when they leave an alcoholic, who quickly finds someone else. Alcoholics look for enablers and quickly replace one for another.
I hear this often on the forum, and I was wondering where this premise comes from? I dont think its possible for one to know what all other people are capable of even if in active addiction. There are also varying degrees, categories of substance abuse disorder. But I hear it often and maybe its from the AA program/step work?

As I commented above, I browse the Newcomers and Alcoholics, Substance Abuse forums often. I see A LOT of posts where people talk about their families, children, significant others. They claim to love them, and are often motivated by this. I didnt start the relationship with my husband when he was in active addiction. I dont think he stopped loving me when he was active. I think he was incapable of expressing it, of doing the things it takes to nurture a loving relationship because he was up/down/all consumed between bouncing in between, and figuring out how he was going to manage to continue fooling everyone (including himself) that he was really ok. And then at some point I think he also knew he needed to change but couldnt find a way to do it, and that was all consuming. It sounds so very exhausting !
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