Pathwaytofree

That's a good point. I have the acceptance prayer in a big font on my mirror. I hadn't realized that this is an issue of acceptance and powerlessness. I know I am powerless over how they treat me but I am not powerless over how I respond. That's what I want tools for.

I've heard a similar one to that. That's a good one. "And the wisdom to know it's me". That's why I'm on this forum. I want to change ME around them and how I deal with them. I know they will never change because they are unconstitutionally able to.

I heard a circuit speaker read this prayer. I never heard it before. I really like it. It reminds me of the Prayer of St. Francis. But it is not easy to do around abusive people, especially since they take this sort of behavior as a huge weakness and it just feeds into them. I need to be strong, assertive, and stick up for myself around them.

I know that. I stopped thinking it'd change them early on in my step 8/9. At first I used to think that if they saw a change in me, that THEY would change. That may happen around normal people, but not people with personality disorders. I know they'll never change. It's not my job to change them. It's God's. But I would like to learn how *I* can change around them, so that I will have my peace of mind.

I gave it up years ago trying to understand the "WHY". The WHY keeps us sick. The answer is this: "Because they're not mentally well." End of story.

This is beautiful. I did do this with them this time, but I wasn't able to do it 100%. But it's a beautifully detached way of handling people like that. I'm going to try to do this next time.

Yes. That is a beautiful, healthy way to respond. But sometimes it is easier said than done. Especially when it's with people who are really good at pushing your buttons or go right for the jugular.

The old timer makes an excellent point. But I think what happens is, if we don't see our family members for a long time or talk to them for a long time, we almost forget what they were like. I know they'll never change. I know we'll be well if we just expect nothing less. But it still hurts and is still hard to deal with. It's hard to accept an abusive person as they are abusing you or reminding you of the abuse they caused you. Tell me, how are we supposed to do that? How are we supposed to "accept" the fact that "right in this moment", this particular family member is in your face, trying everything in their power to make you feel stupid, less than, and all that? I'm just supposed to sit there and listen to lies and abuse in the moment?

I am really sorry that happened to you. Many of us in the rooms have similar stories. I am glad you have found a place of acceptance over it and are not in resentment over it. But tell me something, if you were to see him again, how would you feel? If he tried to rape you again, how would you feel? How does acceptance work then? That is what is confusing me. I cannot change the past or how I reacted to it, but I don't understand how to react differently than I used to.

How did you work on your emotional reaction and fear?

How did you do inner child work?

Your dad likely won't change. He likely has no idea how what he says and does affects you. I know this isn't about wanting them to change. I've accepted that they never will. That's when I was finally able to see my people-pleasing was self-seeking fear-based and I stopped people-pleasing and walking on eggshells around them.

She will never change and I've accepted that. Thank you for giving me options. I am planning to discuss those with my therapist. If I do restrict communication, I will have to learn personal boundaries. Where did you learn how to set your own personal boundaries with your dad?

I guess I do need to work on accepting her for how she treats me and acts and using forgiveness in the moment so it doesn't bother me so much? I don't have any false hope. That is long gone. I don't expect her to all of a sudden wake up and treat me kindly, with love, and sisterly and all that. But I do want to learn how to stop them from giving me so much noise in my brain, shutting me down, and affecting how I feel about myself and all that. I want to be able to just hang up the phone and not have a single more thought about it, but they know how to get into my head and they love it.

Agreed.

Again I am not looking to change or control her. I am looking for ways to keep my own sanity and peace of mind, because dealing with them on any level takes it away.

I've done similar stuff with people from my resentment list. It was much easier to do with people who weren't my family. One time events or people who were in my life for a short time I was able to give to God much easier. And forgiveness does NOT mean we condone what someone did. It means we choose to let go of the anger that was only hurting US. And to say the sick man's prayer from step 4.

My past doesn't need to wreck my future, but it gets challenging when family members continue to do the same thing in the present moment.

Cool. Thanks. Only if it's not too difficult to do.

I went, was in a great way of feeling afterward, but now I'm in a bad mood from the reminder of this crap.

honeypig

This is when we move beyond detachment and go no contact. Why place yourself in the line of fire? When I repeatedly subject myself to abusive people, I am contributing to the abuse myself too, through my actions and my attitudes.

What is the reason you feel you have to allow this particular family member to BE "in your face, trying everything in their power to make you feel stupid"? THAT is what a boundary is--you have made a pact with yourself that if family member A gets in your face and acts abusively, you will hang up the phone/leave the room/leave the house/whatever it takes to remove yourself from the situation. You can end the abuse right there, right that moment.

Training yourself not to feel bad when you're being abused is not healthy--it's perfectly normal to feel bad when someone is abusing you. What is much healthier is to get yourself out of the abuser's reach, away from their influence, and you don't need anyone else's permission or assistance to do that; it's all up to you.

I used to think there was a magic shield too, one that could make me able to put up w/whatever craziness happened and feel nothing about it, float calmly and peacefully above it. I found out that's not the case. Being lied to hurts, no matter what. So then why allow myself to BE lied to?

No Contact is a great tool. It has brought me peace when nothing else would have. I'd suggest giving that a try.

Pathwaytofree

You're right, I did say that. I am so confused. There aren't any? Then how do I learn what to do to protect myself?

I guess there's still part of me that thinks, if I act strong enough or say the right thing, they will learn and see that they can't push my buttons anymore.

There's a part of me that just doesn't think it's as easy as just sitting there and not responding to their bullying. Like that's going to make them stop? I want to put them in their place, once and for all.

I guess I am misunderstanding? Is it not about being strong and having the right come back?

T has talked to me about this, to do it for self-preservation. I have to work hard at breaking that brainwashing of, "when I call you, you JUMP immediately" sort of thing. Same with emails. I go into immediate fear of their rage if I don't answer immediately. I've gotten much better though, with time and distance.

My husband seems to feel I should continue to interact with them and just let how they act and what they say slide. It is easier said then done. Plus then it makes me feel like it's my fault that I can't just deal with them.

What book/resource/website/link here can I learn more about boundaries?

I just feel like if someone says something extremely rude to me in front of a bunch of people, and I sit there quietly, smiling, accepting it, not letting it get to me, that they will take that as a WEAKNESS and continue to do it. But if I have a strong, assertive response that puts them in their place to know that I will not tolerate being spoken to that way, won't it make them stop? Or will they just accuse me of being too sensitive or something?

This is really draining and confusing.

SparkleKitty

There are no magic words to get anyone else to change. If there were, this site wouldn't exist.

They will think whatever they will think about your lack of response to their abuse and bullying. So what if they DO choose to call it weakness? YOU know you are not weak. YOU know they are the jerks in that scenario. At some point, the validation you get from yourself has to be enough.

I stopped most of my communication with my family because they all thrive on drama and I don't anymore. When I first started ignoring their behavior, the first thing they did was amp it up. I had broken the pattern and this made them insane to rope me back in. So be prepared for your detachment to make them double down for awhile. You can't let up, or you will just feed their demons.

Pathwaytofree

I really want to go no contact with my sister. My husband thinks I shouldn't. I have a lot of thinking to do. I LOVE what you say here about subjecting yourself to the abuse, you are continuing to abuse yourself.

What if you're in the car? What if you're all out to dinner and she's sitting right next to you? What if it's not something where you can just hang up the phone? I'm just really confused. The big book of AA teaches that I'm supposed to be kind, loving, and tolerant, forgive those who trespass against us, yet don't crawl or grovel for anyone. Damn it, so I'm supposed to just TAKE IT and forgive in the moment?! It just doesn't make sense. I can't make heads or tails of what God wants me to do for my own self preservation, and for loving His children, in this case.

I SO needed to read this!!! I'm going to share it with my husband. I don't think he sees the "abuse" because they're not doing it to him directly. Plus he's sort of in the habit I think of ignoring abuse, but that's not healthy as you've said here! I can't stand when his brother verbally abuses him and I will and have said something to him to quit talking to his brother like that. My husband, however, tells me that it's not necessary to say that. He just doesn't see it. :-(

YES! I think that is why I am so frustrated and I apologize if that's coming out on my replies. You all have been very helpful. But it's like I have competing messages in my head/heart how to handle them. I really don't think God wants me to put up with abusive people and just "forgive them in the moment" as they continue to be abusive. I am certain that my mother and sister know EXACTLY what they are doing. I can't forgive that.

I'm seriously going to do this. It's going to be harder with my sister to go NC than my mother, but I will not put up with her abuse. She needs a huge dose of humility and it's not up to me to put up with her cruel ways until she gets it. I've worked way too hard on my own growth and recovery for her to get into my head and ruin it.

Thank you.

Pathwaytofree

Ok. I know I can't change them, but I guess I misunderstood. I thought if I acted stronger, more assertively, verbally told them my boundaries, they would stop abusing me?

I struggle a lot with allowing myself to believe my truth about myself and about them. They get into my head. I am not good at giving myself validation. It's something my now retired T and I used to talk about. He wished more than anything that I would allow myself self-validation but a lifetime of brainwashing makes it really hard and very frustrating.

Good for you!! My family all thrives on drama, too, and there's none going on, they will create some. Yup they also amp it up when I ignore their behavior. That's when their manipulative "nicey-nice" comes out, they hook me in with that, then go right for the jugular. It makes them crazy when they see that I am not like I was years ago when I would be easily sucked into their drama tornado.

It's as if they sharpen their toxic manipulative tools the minute they sense you are pulling away and trying to get healthy and away from them.

SparkleKitty

It's not "as if", it IS this way. Unhealthy people don't like when other people change, especially when the changing person represents a supply of drama or enabling or whatever. They will double-down on the behavior--don't let that take you by surprise.

DesertEyes

Hello Pathway, and pleased to "meet" you.

The way I learned was by listening to other people in meetings share how they protected themselves. You can also browse thru the posts here, or do a search for the keywords "detachment" and "boundary".

That's called "revenge". It won't stop them, it will just make them smile because it means they have reduced you to their level.

No. It's about being strong enough to not be there in the first place. They can't abuse you if you are not there. No contact is about physically removing yourself from them.

The way I did it is something called "baby steps". I started by putting a limit on how long I endured a phone call. Nothing more, that was my entire first action item for developing no contact. At one hour and a half I would claim the apartment manager was at the door, or there were police banging on the apartment next to mine, or the toilet is overflowing.

After a couple of months of that I cut back to just one hour and fifteen, then one hour, then 45 mins and so on. It took me the better part of a year, but I got it to where I could just put the phone on the counter for 10 mins and then come up with an excuse.

For in person contacts I developed .... er.... invented a gastric disorder. Don't remember which one. I had to excuse myself and go to the bathroom very, very frequently. Eventually I spent more time in the bathroom than out. Then I started leaving the family events earlier and earlier, until one day I was just too sick to ever go to those horrid dinners.

Oh yes, that is exactly how I was. The whole secret to no contact is that you don't have to work on the fear at all. If you are not there then you will not experience the fear. I never did work on my fear, it just kind of went away on it's own when there was no longer anything to fear in my life.

Mike

Berrybean

We are allowed to stick up for ourselves. But we don't need to drag it out. We can just say that we are going. No excuse necessary. Maybe by way of explanation, "I'm sorry you feel that way, but you know, life's too short for all this negativity. We'll catch up another time when you're feeling better." Or a similar goodbye, just to acknowledge the turn the conversation took, but without it turning into a drama or an argument, or mistakenly thinking we can teach themnthe error of their ways by doing or saying a certain elusive sonething. Walking away, as you know yourself, if usually the act of the stronger person. If they want to perceive it as a weakness that's on them. This isn't between you and them though. Its between you and your Higher Power.

Progress, not perfection. Keep at it. Eventually it gets easier and more natural.

Walk away. Not huff off. No excuses necessary. If it's at a family meal or similar you could quietly assert that "This isn't what everyone got together for. Please stop." Maybe then excuse yourself to go to the bathroom and pray. That will give them time to back down graciously when you return, with the wind out of their sails - or not. If they carry on when you return then perhaps it's time to go home. Call it a day.

If you don't have a phone where you can see who is calling before you pick up, or that you can easily block numbers from calling it might be an idea to get one. That was contact can be restricted to when you are prepared and feelings strong enough to deal with them.

How I would feel if I saw him now? I don't know. It's not something that is likely to happen, thankfully. By all accounts he lives in Thailand now with a wife and small child. I hope he has cleaned up his act for their sake and his.
He is someone I had been at school with from the age of 6. Not 'family' but in a small community, something close. I knew he was trouble, and that he treated people badly. I kind of wanted to hang with the dangerous kids because it felt safer to be in with them rather than be one of their victims. There you go. Mistake number 1.
At the party where it happened he called me from upstairs, and I went up to see what he wanted - he was a class mate. I thought he was going to be asking me, as usual, if I could get my lovely friend to go out with him (she would have nothing to do with him - wise child!) If I am grateful for anything it is that it happened to me and not my friend, who was so Good and Innocent and who would have been even more broken by it than I was. He stood by the door and locked it and I knew right then I was in big big trouble. I think he must have been pretty high at the time because his eyes were definitely screwey. I'd literally just arrived so, for a change, I was sober and fully alert to what was happening.

After it happened, we both lived in the same small community for a year. I never reported it. That decision was driven by fear as well. I was very happy when he got put in prison for drug dealing and was removed from the vicinity. When he got released a few years later i had already moved away, but i have been in pubs when he has turned up a couple of times. He has carefully stayed away from me, and me him. I think any onlooker would think we had never even met. Would I ever put myself in close proximity to him alone again - of course not given the choice. It is one thing handing my resentment to God to do with as He wills. I don't think there will never be any second chances on this one as far as trusting him, even if he ever apologised, which I don't expect ever to happen. The rest of it i need to entrust to God.

The humility prayer again. I know that it must sound like a broken record, but once I can identify where that fear or reaction is coming from and I pray on it then it usually becomes more manageable and I can get back to 'undisturbed'

My work was self led, which probably isn't the best way. I did get referred for counselling early on in my sobriety when my boss had enough of me being completely insane. Thing is. The reason I was going insane was that I was to scared to be honest about my part in anything. Which was also the reason I hadn't yet got a sponsor or started working the steps. Consequently I used up all my counselling sessions sitting there complaining about other people (problem focussed) rather than looking towards changing myself (solution focussed). It did at least point out my incapacity for honesty at that time and gave me the resolve to apply myself to the program and get honest that way. Anyway - as you have a therapist perhaps that's something you could ask her or him about as well. As I had used all my sessions up I used a book that had exercises in it to work through - Rescuing your Inner Child by Penny Parks. She has another one The Counsellor's Guide to Parks Inner Child Therapy which I believe has the same information but with a more broad slant regarding the type of abuse suffered. But perhaps you could chat to yourvtherapist about it as well.

Well. That's a kind of work in progress. Progress not perfection eh! I'm learning that it's easier if I call him, so I don't have to go through the sinking feeling of seeing that he is calling me. If I call him i can kind of prepare myself by using the Humility Prayer and the resentment prayer, and asking God to help me act with love and kindness so that I don't end up with any amends on my conscience (which is where the main disturbance often lays for me.) I can also think of some questions to ask him about his life and his wife as subject changers for if things get a bit negative. If there are attempts to pull me into other family disputes with him I resist them. If he tells me a barefaced lie I don't argue the toss with him, I just learn from it and pray for him to find some peace with himself. Sometimes I remember how my Nan (his mum) used to be with me. So sharp and critical. And remember that it's possible that he is carrying his own hurt and resentments that kind of poison him. I'm the lucky one. I have the program and I have a fellowship of people at AA and on here and in my church who I can speak to about this stuff. I don't know who he would be able to talk to.

Who is giving you the noise in your brain? They are not IN your brain. We are pretty good at creating that noise. Resentments (especially justified ones) can be so real they are almost chewy, and so loud they have the same impact as clashing cymbols. Have you tried meditation at all? That has after all helped people for centuries with the noise in their head.
Also, perhaps try using that humility prayer before and after dealings with your sister and see what happens. What happens with me is that as I'm reading through it one or a few of the things on the list make me feel really agitated. Almost angry. Then I know exactly what in me the situation is triggering and I have something more specific to work with.

Would it matter to you if they continued to act as they do but it no longer affected you like it does if they did not KNOW that it doesn't affect you. If they were still possibly cackling evilly after each encounter, thinking you were in a place of pain shile you carried on your life undisturbed? Or is it important to you that they know that they have no power over you?

I suspect that you feel that they are 'winning' some sick kind of family game at the moment. Believe me though, there are no winners in this kind of game. When we see people who 'have what we want' these are not people who have worked through any justified resentments by getting even or learning to score points. They are people who have found a way of staying in touch with their Higher Power in such a way that this brings them peace. That Do It Anyway prayer is one that helps me to do this, mostly due to that very last line...
God, help me to remember that it is between you and me. It was never between me and them anyway. This is all between us and our HP. As a Christian I have to remember that Jesus was the only perfect human ever. He was without sin. But this did not mean that he was not abused, hated, or persecuted. All of those things happened to him, but he still loved and forgave. When in those situations, what did he do? Who did he turn to? Doing the right thing will never be some kind of guarantee that we will be treated kindly or with respect. But the peace we find through being a conduit for Gods love and peace and seeking closeness with God and being willing to do his will rather than grabbing and grasping in a constant scrabble of instant gratification and self-will (which is pretty much how I remember my alcoholic life and early sobriety without the program) is enough, as long as we can stay undisturbed and keep asking Him for help.

In the meantime, could you just set some simple boundaries. These might include the physical space you keep between the person involved and you. Time spent together. Who else needs to be there. Subjects that are off-topic (perhaps there are things that when spoken of always result in an argument). And the frequency and length of phone calls. How often do you speak ? It sounds like it is quite often. Whereas my brother and I chat maybe one every month - maybe even less. If it is not a positive relationship, why do you have frequent contact if this is the case?

Anyway. I hope that you are feeling some peace today.
Wishing you all the best for your sobriety and recovery xxx

aliciagr

Pathway,

I think it might help you to do some research on communication techniques. I know you asked for Alanon tips for being on the phone, but I didnt really find any communication skills in the program itself other than avoidance by detaching or no contact. Lots of us have to deal with difficult people in life, be it in the workplace, social, or family matters. Maybe try looking at some communication books, or just pull some articles from the web. Someone posted the article below on another thread and I think it might apply to your situation.

http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...amatizing.html

I try to be careful not to feed the drama, or actually cause the drama by my reactions. If people love drama, it can be a sort of emotional addiction. It ups the Adrenalin or something, puts the attention on them, gives them control over the topic and the other persons emotions, and sometimes it even makes them the hero (in their minds) when they end the drama by coming up with the solution, hanging up, or walking away. Sometimes, we as family members can also thrive on the drama but it doesnt sound like you are which is really good. I think the other part is dealing with the emotions left when all this happens.. anger, disgust at the other person, and also some anger at ourselves - why didnt I handle it better? To solve this I think we have to look on the inside, not put it back on them. Therapy helped me with this because it allowed me to accept my husband was basically in an unhealthy place, and all these dynamics were going on. Its very hard to stabilize instability -my therapist told me this and for some reason it helped me let go of the crazy conversations I had with my husband.

Mango blast

Hanging up without saying a word says, "I'm not having this conversation with you." Not picking up the phone and deleting text messages says the same thing.

DOING these things tell me that I've got my own back. That I'm safe. That I'm protecting myself from abuse.

It's focusing on my own health and recovery. Leaving a blank spot fills up automatically in with my doubts, fear, obligation and guilt. Prayer, meditation, connecting with my inner instinct fills me with strength, happiness, fun, joy, PEACE.

One day at a time. One breath at a time. Just because it's been hard in the past to put yourself, your own health first, doesn't mean it'll always be hard.

(((Hugs)))

Pathwaytofree

Sorry I had to step away from my thread for a bit for self-care, it got to be too much.

LLLisa

Yes, I found it quite confronting too. There seemed to be a lot of analysis of you and not enough ESH, I thought.

I just don't answer the phone. I know how it will end and I know how awful I will feel afterward. No contact feels much more serene.

Eauchiche

My favorite saying and chief boundary enforcer is :

"IF I WANT DRAMA, I WILL GO TO THE THEATRE!"

Next in line is the Esopilian language. It works very well for phone abusers and telemarketers:

"NO ENGLISH! GURDRURA ESOPILIA?"

atalose

We have to do what we have to do for ourselves, nothing wrong with that!!!!

I know for me the harder part wasn’t in knowing what to say as much as it was in answering the call in the first place. I always felt I HAD TO answer no matter what. My thinking was that, maybe this is there lifeline call, maybe this is the call for help, etc. etc. all of those thoughts keep me prisoner to answering that dam phone. Al-anon helped me accept that I only had to answer that call if I wanted to. I learned to do that without guilt.

Some of the tips I learned was…………

Just listen and don’t offer advice, help or anything if not asked directly. I had this unhealthy un-canning ability to offer things, time, money, rides, pet sitting, research, etc. etc. when not even asked first.

Keep it simple……a slogan in al-anon. I used to complicate things so much by my over thinking of solutions for their problems. Instead I would just listen, bite my tongue and keep on listening.

I could tell almost immediately how intoxicated they were and that was my clue to end the call quickly. I either had someone at my door, another phone call coming, etc. etc.

Pathwaytofree

Thank you LLLisa so much for that extremely validating reply. I couldn't put my finger on it and you just did. Maybe it's because I admitted here that I am on both sides. Perhaps I should have kept that to myself. I've dipped into a depression that I can't shake since spending time with them, and I went on here for support. ESH would've been helpful. I'm at the point in my life where I am just so freaking drained and tired I just want SOLUTIONS, you know? :-(

That's good advice. I have to really sit down and figure out just how much contact I want.

LifeRecovery

Pathway

Completely different situation but I needed this tattooed on my forehead for a bit

No Contact = No new hurts

Berrybean

Pathway, I apologise if my response to your questions is what you mean. I certainly didn't respond with the intention of making things worse for you. I hope things get better soon.
Plenty of us are double-winners though, so please don't feel badly about that.

BB

Pathwaytofree

Hi Berrybean,

Thank you for the thoughtful reply, but it wasn't necessary. :-) I could sense without a doubt your 100% pure and good motives behind your posts, and how much you wanted to help. Sometimes things just get too much for me, though, that's all.

The post that did upset me, though, was when I was accused of trying to change my family members. That's not true. I'm not trying to change them. I have 0% power to change them. But maybe I wrote my post in a way that people read it that way. But it's more about walking on eggshells around them and trying to act, say, or do in ways that won't explode. I don't think that doesn't mean I'm trying to change them but maybe I am wrong. It's more like how to act so I don't wake the sleeping tiger. But if it means I am trying to change them but not waking up the monsters inside of them, I don't know maybe I am back to square one.

Thanks. I am not ashamed about being a double winner. But I won't stand for being treated harshly on this side of the forum by those who still have bitterness and anger toward alcoholics who they don't even know. I left another forum because of that.

Thanks, BB. I just changed therapists and I am hopeful that will make a difference.

Pathwaytofree

Thanks for the chuckle, LifeRecovery!!!
I do agree.
But I think it was said in therapy that I will become stronger and healthier if I learn how to deal with them, vs going no contact. I don't know. I have a lot to think about.

No contact gets lonely, too. I feel like I'm missing out. I haven't been successful at making my "own" "family" so to speak, with friends and whatnot. I guess I fall through the cracks when people have parties and make plans.

Sometimes I feel like I would've been better off had I not seen them. But then sometimes I think if I could only be stronger and have the right comebacks for they way they treat me and talk to me, then I WOULD finally be able to heal. It's all very confusing. I feel weak for not being able to deal with them, and that going "no contact" with family is a huge cop out. You know, like someone saying to me, "Shut up and just deal with them".