Refiner

My step-niece's Dad sounds just like your daughter's. The parents split when she was 12 and she's now 20 and in the USAF. She spent 3 months this Spring in a hardcore therapy ranch out west to get her straightened out she was so messed up... and it came to light that is was ALL due to the way the dad used her as a pawn and manipulated throughout her formative years. I wouldn't even give him 2 hours EVER. He's doing damage to her. I'd go for sole custody and get her into therapy so she doesn't think she needs to "fix" her dad.

Sasha1972

She's in Alateen and I have her seeing a counsellor. I'm also working through a lawyer to get sole custody, but nothing happens as quickly as I want it to.

Just cutting her off from her father isn't as straightforward as it seems. While I would love to be able to do so, if I said "you're never seeing your father again because he's a drunk", I've handed him another tool with which to manipulate her and triangulate her into a Kid-and-Dad-versus-Mom-the-b!tch setup, by making me the bad guy. After a lot of soul-searching, I've decided that short controlled visits are the least bad of a set of bad options. This allows her to see her father and maintain that relationship, but makes it clear that this is not a normal situation and I do not think her father's behavior is okay.

I may come to regret this years later, but I'm trying to make the best decisions I can with the information available to me.

Bekindalways

You sound like a wise woman Sasha.

As difficult as it is to go no contact with an alcoholic for we adults, it has to be that much more difficult for a 12 year old.

theuncertainty

You're doing a great job, Sasha, in a really, really tough situation. Nothing is straightforward when trying to co-parent with an active/spiraling alcoholic or addict. Even the term co-parent doesn't apply, because in situations like this, there is no 'co-' it's like adversarial sparring...

Our kiddos are the same age. The last time DS got to / had to spend time with AXH was when he was 8 yo. And yeah, I think dealing with what we went through at 8 would be, in a few ways, harder than going through it now. Not that it was easier at 8; it was just different.

When talking with your lawyer, make sure the concern about him putting her into the middle of the grown-up issues by telling her stuff like 'it's about to change' is brought up. I can't guarantee the lawyers or judge in your case will understand that it's a problem, but the judge in mine did.

Sasha1972

Thanks, theuncertainty. I've flagged "inappropriate communication" with my lawyer and given him examples, including "there are going to be some big changes" (along with "your mom's an a$$hole" and "Second ex-wife is a PITA"). I asked him to contact ex's lawyer for clarification about the "big changes".

(Turns out ex no longer has a lawyer [not clear whether he fired the lawyer or vice versa] and is now planning to self-represent. My guess is that this is the "big change" he was telling Kid about - no longer constrained by an attorney who might urge him to be reasonable, he thinks he can get whatever he wants, including increased access to Kid. I am not willing to provide more access to Kid).

Refiner

I think you're doing great and hope you don't think my post suggested otherwise. The Mom of my niece was under his cloud of blackness and manipulation the whole time (until recently too as her daughter had the ranch unleash the reasons her mom has too)... you have your eyes wide open to what's going on. And that's a good thing! I hope Al-Ateen and counseling are helping her through this.

theuncertainty

Well, there are pros and cons to him representing himself. Just two of them would be: On the con-side, there's no one to restrain his 'requests' to reasonable ones, so the requests can get quite unreasonable. On the pro-side, there's no one to tell him what's reasonable or not, so the court will get to see the unreasonableness pretty clearly. And they generally do see it and understand it for what it is.

AXH's lawyer petitioned to be let go part way through our divorce. According to his filing, AXH was no longer responding to his requests for information. According to the small claims suit he filed against AXH a few months later, the check(s) for retainer/payment bounced. (Quick note would be AXH didn't have a checking account at the time, so I kind of believe he stole check(s) from his father, sister or GF. I'm just saying...) Some of the stuff AXH said at the hearings for our divorce and custody case were jaw-dropping in their WTF factor - and he had no attorney to tell him to shut up.

FireSprite

Ok, I went back to read more in depth because I was missing where the 2-hr meetings were taking place...

I understand letting them keep this schedule just to keep some semblance of peace but if it were ME, my behind would be parked right outside his front door for the entire 2 hours.

I wouldn't leave during those 2 hours & if he complained I'd let him know that next time I'd be happy to sit IN the house & supervise if he'd prefer. (I think you have the right to do this legally, correct?)

It sounds like things are ramping up with him & that would concern me - no longer working with an attorney, drunken-sounding texts to DD with grandiose & generic claims, issues with his other Ex wife getting more serious..... he's unstable & therefore more unpredictable than ever.

Well, maybe it is time to share SOME of it? At 12 they aren't babies. At 12 my DD has seen A LOT in middle school that is very "grown up stuff" & she's capable of understanding more than she did when she was younger. Are there any true examples & generic "this is how alcoholism affects/affected our lives" types of stuff that you CAN share with her? If you give her something of substance to understand your POV, would she? I often use my eating disorder as an example & then back into an example using alcohol - that way it's about me as much as him & it's not just me finding fault with him.

Not saying these are the right answers -just the things that would be right in my world for me & my DD.

Sasha1972

It's not clear that I do have that right because at the moment on paper we have joint custody - which means I can't completely withhold Kid unless I have reason to believe she is in immediate danger (or I am). And just being an angry alcoholic with mental illness concerns who drunk-texts and fired his lawyer doesn't add up to an immediate danger to Kid during the time she's with him. I've been through this with cops and child protection workers. With sole custody (which both cops and child protection workers have urged), I would have much more (legal) control over the less obvious dangers. If he would just throw rocks at my car or something, I would have evidence that he is overtly dangerous and I could move a lot faster.

During the visits, I'm about 5 min away, usually parked in Starbucks. I don't have the right to enter his home or be on his property and am not going to provoke a confrontation.

FireSprite

Ah, I thought your temporary orders gave you more control over the visitation. You have the ability to force supervision, but it can't be you, in his house? Am I getting that right? I was talking about waiting outside because then I would know if he tried to take off with her. 5 mins away is great unless he does try to take off with her, feeding her some story about how it's all been approved already. Then you might as well be 500 miles away.

That's why I suggest it's important to stop protecting her from SOME of the realities of addiction - not just the stuff you read in books or hear in meetings, but real-life stuff that has happened to her Mom. Something like that should alert her to call you & verify before acquiescing.

IDK Sasha, it seems next to impossible to be assured of DD's safety and not upset his delicate King Baby feelings at the same time. I think at some point, something is going to have to give. What happened to the custody revision you approved to be sent to him?

Sasha1972

The draft order for an interim custody change is with his former lawyer, whom he has cut loose. My hope was that his lawyer would convince him to sign off rather than dragging it to court, but I think that hope may be gone now.

At the moment, the only legal ground for not letting Kid stay with him is the fact that the child protection investigation which was initiated after the drunk-driving incident has not been officially concluded (or rather, I have not been notified that it has been concluded), so I can justify deviating from the divorce order which specifies 50/50 residence on the grounds that there is an open child protection investigation. (I hope that sentence wasn't too confusing!).

Absolutely, something has to give. At the moment, the route is through court, which could take months. If there were a crisis (hence my wish that he would throw rocks at my car), the court route could be short-circuited.

I'm grappling with how much to share with Kid. Her father already overshares wildly and I don't want to add to that burden. Exposing his lies is difficult - e.g. Dad says he hasn't been drinking, Mom says oh yes he has, here are copies of his credit card bills, Kid says waaah! I don't know who to believe and where did you get those bills from anyway?

I think Kid understands some of my concerns - she makes a point of letting me know that she has her phone with her every time I take her to her father's house, and she always wants to know where I'm going to be when she's with him. Yet she still wants to see him. I feel really badly for her.

LexieCat

Yeesh, too bad he lost his lawyer. OTOH, he might dig himself a deep enough hole to get you what you want a lot more quickly without that restraint on him.

Let me ask this: is there any possibility you could ask the court to order psych evaluations on both of you? Might be very revealing--and he might just be arrogant enough to take it on. It sounds to me like he's becoming more unstable, and his "changes are coming" is a bit scary. I hope you're right that it's just his assumption he can do better than his lawyer.

Sasha1972

I'd be very happy to be evaluated for anything - I will keep that idea in mind. I think he will be a disaster (to himself) as a self-represented litigant - he has a tendency to write long, pompous, semi-coherent arguments about ridiculous things (I have a whole archive of them), which I imagine would not go over well with a judge. He's always been the smartest person in the room.

The main thing I'm grappling with now is wanting my lawyer to move faster. I want a court date NOW. I want an application filed and served NOW. I understand that I am not his only client and that this is probably not his most urgent file, and that I am displacing anxiety, but I'm thinking "just tell me what you need and I'll do it myself if this moves the process along!".

FireSprite

I was afraid that was what you were going to say about the custody order. My heart breaks for BOTH of you Sasha - she's obviously hurting & there is nothing worse than watching your children struggle with pain. I KNOW this is killing you inside & you are constantly 2nd-guessing yourself.

I think you're right that she is picking up on more intuitively than she has worked out emotionally or logically just yet. I know it can be a struggle to get her to open up so yeah, I can see where sharing specific examples might get touchy. I'm not suggesting anything ~anything~ that pushes her beyond her comfort zone. I'm just trying to think of ways to expand the boundaries of that zone a bit.

I know I get further with DD by asking questions but that takes getting the convo rolling first. ("How do you feel when you get messages from your dad that say things like that?") Have you considered doing some kind of activity together, something that would sort of force bonding time while you're busy doing other things? It might be a baby-step in trust-building for her.... maybe a martial arts or yoga class? Art? Anything you have a shared interest in? Heck, even just watching & commenting on reality TV gives me opportunities to use their experiences as examples that relate to things she's seen in her own life without personalizing it pro-mom/against-dad.

Hang in there mama, you're really doing great!!

hopeful4

Honestly, it sounds like he thinks he can get what he wants and get the ball rolling since he is self repping. Honestly, that is normally a disaster even with the most competent of people. Give them enough rope and they will hang themselves so to speak. You are a great momma, keep up the good work. I usto do what you are doing, stay w/in 5 mins of XAH's home when things were bad but I am forced to leave child there.

What's good for the child and family courts orders often do not match up, that's for sure!

Big hugs!