should I insist on selling the house?
Member
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: East Coast
Posts: 1,235
Sell ASAP. My sister basically invited her potsmoking boyfriend to move in with her as soon as she and her now ex-husband divorced. Then her ex struggled to get the house on the market for three years after the divorce date. Her ex -husband basically had to rally his friends to come over and babysit her into getting the house ready for sale. She has a tendency to hoard so much of the struggle in getting the house sale-ready was getting rid of her stuff. She really made the sale process so much longer than it should have been. The straw (I think) that broke the camel's back was when she told my dad she couldn't help my sick mom because she was getting the house ready for sale, while telling her ex that she couldn't get the house ready for sale because she was helping my sick mom.
Your husband could pull the same stunt too. In an odd way, my sister's ex-husband got off easy, because she didn't actually go out and wreck the house.
Your husband could pull the same stunt too. In an odd way, my sister's ex-husband got off easy, because she didn't actually go out and wreck the house.
Member
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Florida
Posts: 6,780
I would not even CONSIDER keeping the house & staying tied together financially for years with an active, progressing alcoholic. Do you realize how fast things could deteriorate for him? Staying tied together over such a big financial asset means you're putting him in the driver's seat over YOUR future, to some extent. (Or that you'll go crazy trying to control it from a distance) To me, all the "pros" to keep it benefit him while the "con" list is a mile long on YOUR side. Your lawyer cannot possibly realize that he's basically advising you to sign up for years of entanglement with someone incapable of keeping his end of the deal.
Uh-uh, no way Jose, absolutely not, NO.
Uh-uh, no way Jose, absolutely not, NO.
Member
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Midwest
Posts: 11,481
I wanted to add one more thing here, on the heels of FireSprite's post. In the course of talking to XAH yesterday about some jointly owned things we still need to dispose of, I learned that this last incident, the hit-and-run where he was the pedestrian, cost him $30K out of pocket, after his insurance paid their part.
It could have been SO much more expensive-- I drove him to the ER, so there was no ambulance ride, which would have cost an extra $1000, easy. It was a very short hospital stay, w/a fair amount of imaging but no special services such as ICU. His elbow surgery was done on an outpatient basis. AND his employer has a high-deductible plan but kindly pays for half the deductible if the employee uses the full amount of the deductible. You can see just how quickly some really big expenses could rack up in the case of a serious and/or ongoing injury/health issue.
And he was the one who got hurt; there were no other injured parties or property involved. If it had been a car accident where the A was at fault, and there were injuries and a lawsuit? Truly crippling financially...
I am so glad this is NOT mine to contend with. And XAH? Well, he's still the innocent victim--the fact that his BAC was approximately 0.19 when he got hit is absolutely not a factor, according to him.
(Just for the heck of it, here's some info off the net explaining what the different BAC levels look like: Blood Alcohol Level Facts | Barnard College)
Anyway, my point was to show just how quickly this valuable property that you and AH own could be consumed in the event of a bad event. As others have said, your lawyer is advising you based on a "normal" situation. That advice is probably as useful and applicable as all the other advice you've received about A's and alcoholism from people who don't really know...
It could have been SO much more expensive-- I drove him to the ER, so there was no ambulance ride, which would have cost an extra $1000, easy. It was a very short hospital stay, w/a fair amount of imaging but no special services such as ICU. His elbow surgery was done on an outpatient basis. AND his employer has a high-deductible plan but kindly pays for half the deductible if the employee uses the full amount of the deductible. You can see just how quickly some really big expenses could rack up in the case of a serious and/or ongoing injury/health issue.
And he was the one who got hurt; there were no other injured parties or property involved. If it had been a car accident where the A was at fault, and there were injuries and a lawsuit? Truly crippling financially...
I am so glad this is NOT mine to contend with. And XAH? Well, he's still the innocent victim--the fact that his BAC was approximately 0.19 when he got hit is absolutely not a factor, according to him.
(Just for the heck of it, here's some info off the net explaining what the different BAC levels look like: Blood Alcohol Level Facts | Barnard College)
Anyway, my point was to show just how quickly this valuable property that you and AH own could be consumed in the event of a bad event. As others have said, your lawyer is advising you based on a "normal" situation. That advice is probably as useful and applicable as all the other advice you've received about A's and alcoholism from people who don't really know...
Member
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 786
I disagree with the lawyer even if alcohol isn't involved. To create your own independent life and be truly free, you need to eliminate all ties. And even when two fully sane people divorce, you have no idea who that person will become and what choices they'll make. It's setting yourself up for trouble.
I also disagree with the lawyer's perspective on the upside value of the house in the future. I think of it like this--if instead of a house, you owned stock together that has been going up...you wouldn't choose to hold stock together that he keeps in his name just in case there's an upside for you. If you wanted that upside you'd buy your own stock. Same applies here with the house. The upside that you're missing out on is a bit of a fallacy, because it's a decision to keep your "investment" tied up in it. You have a certain amount of equity (or cash) today. If the pile of cash were in your lap, would you choose to invest it in a home he's living in and maintaining, or put it elsewhere? You could put the cash from the house in tax-free municipal bonds earning 4-5% guaranteed, or in the stock market...same potential for growth, similar or less risk, and no realtor fees or capital gains tax.
When I divorced I considered only two options--
1) He pays me my equity in cash or other assets and I quit-claim, he refinances.
2) We sell and split remaining proceeds.
He opted for #1 and I required a refi before the quit-claim, and if he couldn't refi, forced a sale. Two weeks after his refi went through he was fired. Thank God I was free and clear. He ended up selling distress for a loss and hating me for it (and covering all the realtor fees). Not my problem. If I were still involved in the house when he was fired, I'd have been worried about TWO house payments.
In my opinion, (no offense to lawyers), family law attorneys often try to get people to come to agreements...that are much more convoluted or tangled than they need to be, just to make it end. AND, many of the finer financial points are lost because nobody is a financial guru. For example, if you have any joint debt or debt in your name that the decree states he has to pay...he may not pay it and it's still your credit on the line. That happens often in my state.
Sorry for the soapbox...I'm in the financial industry and was amazed at what would have happened in my divorce if I weren't so familiar with finances (down to tax impacts), and I've also helped several friends fight against their lawyers' recommendations that they assumed were in their best interests until we discussed them.
Regarding the kids, a house isn't a home. Mine are in their 7th house, and it's the happiest home they've ever had. They adapt to places. It's harder to adapt to unhappy or unhealthy parents.
I also disagree with the lawyer's perspective on the upside value of the house in the future. I think of it like this--if instead of a house, you owned stock together that has been going up...you wouldn't choose to hold stock together that he keeps in his name just in case there's an upside for you. If you wanted that upside you'd buy your own stock. Same applies here with the house. The upside that you're missing out on is a bit of a fallacy, because it's a decision to keep your "investment" tied up in it. You have a certain amount of equity (or cash) today. If the pile of cash were in your lap, would you choose to invest it in a home he's living in and maintaining, or put it elsewhere? You could put the cash from the house in tax-free municipal bonds earning 4-5% guaranteed, or in the stock market...same potential for growth, similar or less risk, and no realtor fees or capital gains tax.
When I divorced I considered only two options--
1) He pays me my equity in cash or other assets and I quit-claim, he refinances.
2) We sell and split remaining proceeds.
He opted for #1 and I required a refi before the quit-claim, and if he couldn't refi, forced a sale. Two weeks after his refi went through he was fired. Thank God I was free and clear. He ended up selling distress for a loss and hating me for it (and covering all the realtor fees). Not my problem. If I were still involved in the house when he was fired, I'd have been worried about TWO house payments.
In my opinion, (no offense to lawyers), family law attorneys often try to get people to come to agreements...that are much more convoluted or tangled than they need to be, just to make it end. AND, many of the finer financial points are lost because nobody is a financial guru. For example, if you have any joint debt or debt in your name that the decree states he has to pay...he may not pay it and it's still your credit on the line. That happens often in my state.
Sorry for the soapbox...I'm in the financial industry and was amazed at what would have happened in my divorce if I weren't so familiar with finances (down to tax impacts), and I've also helped several friends fight against their lawyers' recommendations that they assumed were in their best interests until we discussed them.
Regarding the kids, a house isn't a home. Mine are in their 7th house, and it's the happiest home they've ever had. They adapt to places. It's harder to adapt to unhappy or unhealthy parents.
Member
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: W Washington
Posts: 11,589
When I divorced I considered only two options--
1) He pays me my equity in cash or other assets and I quit-claim, he refinances.
2) We sell and split remaining proceeds.
those are the exact two and ONLY options i was going to suggest as well. my last ex and i went for option #1....it worked out well for both of us...he still has the home (i was the one who left) in his name, and now that of his 4th wife - i am officially off the mortgage and deed, and i had enough money from the proceeds to clean up some debt so that i could buy a house, with hank.
it may be a really NICE house, it may have represented HOME, but it is just a structure - a big expensive structure. cut all ties.
1) He pays me my equity in cash or other assets and I quit-claim, he refinances.
2) We sell and split remaining proceeds.
those are the exact two and ONLY options i was going to suggest as well. my last ex and i went for option #1....it worked out well for both of us...he still has the home (i was the one who left) in his name, and now that of his 4th wife - i am officially off the mortgage and deed, and i had enough money from the proceeds to clean up some debt so that i could buy a house, with hank.
it may be a really NICE house, it may have represented HOME, but it is just a structure - a big expensive structure. cut all ties.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 430
Thank you, everyone. There is so much savvy advice here. I thought someone might say "fire your lawyer," but I appreciate the larger point that she doesn't know as much about alcoholism as those of us in this boat.
As a matter of fact, she didn't tell me not to force the sale; she just said to consider both options carefully, so I don't end up with remorse if the market continues going crazy. The fact that I spun that in my own mind into her advising me not to sell made me realize that the problem is not really with me knowing what I should do; the problem is with me still being stuck in the fog of fear, obligation, and guilt. I know my STBXAH is going to be angry and resistant, and that he's going to lay the guilt on thick about "what this will do to the kids."
This morning I listed all of the things I've done in the past 6 months that made him angry and about which he tried to guilt-trip me: telling him I wanted a divorce; finding a new home for myself and our children; packing up my stuff; moving out. And guess what? Every one of us--he (now sober every other week), our children, and I--are all better off than we were 6 months ago.
I just have to remind myself that "I can do this," and it's the right thing to do.
Thank you so much for all of your advice and stories of similar situations. It's so wonderful to have people to go to for help who know what you're talking about.
As a matter of fact, she didn't tell me not to force the sale; she just said to consider both options carefully, so I don't end up with remorse if the market continues going crazy. The fact that I spun that in my own mind into her advising me not to sell made me realize that the problem is not really with me knowing what I should do; the problem is with me still being stuck in the fog of fear, obligation, and guilt. I know my STBXAH is going to be angry and resistant, and that he's going to lay the guilt on thick about "what this will do to the kids."
This morning I listed all of the things I've done in the past 6 months that made him angry and about which he tried to guilt-trip me: telling him I wanted a divorce; finding a new home for myself and our children; packing up my stuff; moving out. And guess what? Every one of us--he (now sober every other week), our children, and I--are all better off than we were 6 months ago.
I just have to remind myself that "I can do this," and it's the right thing to do.
Thank you so much for all of your advice and stories of similar situations. It's so wonderful to have people to go to for help who know what you're talking about.
A work in progress
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: South Jersey
Posts: 16,633
Yeah, remember that lawyers are obligated to lay out ALL of your options, not push for one that s/he things is wisest. I can't tell you how many cases I had with defendants who entered guilty pleas and then turned around and blamed the lawyer for THEIR decision. Lawyers aren't the ones who have to pay the money, do the time, live with the consequences. Ultimately it's always the client's decision what to do. But they aren't doing their job if they don't help you see all the potential upsides and downsides to various options.
Sounds like you know what to do. It's always simpler when everyone agrees, but that's rarely possible when dealing with issues like this--even without the complication of alcoholism in the picture.
Sounds like you know what to do. It's always simpler when everyone agrees, but that's rarely possible when dealing with issues like this--even without the complication of alcoholism in the picture.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 430
Right, Anvil.
Which reminds me, in response to what someone else said about changing schools being worse than changing houses, my STBXAH's immediate reaction to finding out how much he has to pay in child and spousal support was to propose taking the children out of their schools. Yeah, clearly their well-being is at the top of his priority list.
Which reminds me, in response to what someone else said about changing schools being worse than changing houses, my STBXAH's immediate reaction to finding out how much he has to pay in child and spousal support was to propose taking the children out of their schools. Yeah, clearly their well-being is at the top of his priority list.
Member
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Western US
Posts: 8,982
Originally Posted by LexieCat 
Yeah, remember that lawyers are obligated to lay out ALL of your options, not push for one that s/he things is wisest. I can't tell you how many cases I had with defendants who entered guilty pleas and then turned around and blamed the lawyer for THEIR decision. Lawyers aren't the ones who have to pay the money, do the time, live with the consequences. Ultimately it's always the client's decision what to do. But they aren't doing their job if they don't help you see all the potential upsides and downsides to various options.
Sounds like you know what to do. It's always simpler when everyone agrees, but that's rarely possible when dealing with issues like this--even without the complication of alcoholism in the picture.
Sounds like you know what to do. It's always simpler when everyone agrees, but that's rarely possible when dealing with issues like this--even without the complication of alcoholism in the picture.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 430
Update: ARose and Anvil--today I thought about your comments about what living with an alcoholic does to children when I got my STBXAH's response to me telling him that he has to either buy me out or we have to sell the house. He texted, "I'm shocked that you want to force our children out of their house."
Thanks to you, I thought to myself, "and I'm shocked that you continue drinking, seeing what it is doing to you, your marriage, and your children."
Except I'm not really shocked; by now I recognize that denial is his pacifier.
Thanks to you, I thought to myself, "and I'm shocked that you continue drinking, seeing what it is doing to you, your marriage, and your children."
Except I'm not really shocked; by now I recognize that denial is his pacifier.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Texas
Posts: 2,872
SK-oh my sister!! You just coined my favorite new phrase: denial is his pacifier. I don't know if any truer words have been spoken. Hang in there, sister. A's are selfish to the extreme and don't care about others. You are doing the right thing, friend, for yourself and your kids.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 430
OMG just off the phone with him. He now claims that the mugging (a month ago) was his wake-up call and he's now sober and committed to being sober. He spent an hour trying to convince me to be "reasonable" and accept a promissory note from him rather than "forcing the children out of their house."
I tried to point out that he chose alcohol over the well-being of his family for at least the last 5 years, so I have lots of reasons to be skeptical of his newfound sobriety. I want to be bought out or sell the house so that regardless of what he chooses to do, I can take care of myself and our children. He paints that as me being undeservedly skeptical of him and unreasonable.
Sigh.
I tried to point out that he chose alcohol over the well-being of his family for at least the last 5 years, so I have lots of reasons to be skeptical of his newfound sobriety. I want to be bought out or sell the house so that regardless of what he chooses to do, I can take care of myself and our children. He paints that as me being undeservedly skeptical of him and unreasonable.
Sigh.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Texas
Posts: 2,872
Friend, just another manipulation. Don't bite. He ain't sober. You know that. My ex used to pull the same crap just to be able to blame me when I said NO.
He's full of it. He's doing exactly what alcoholics DO.
He's full of it. He's doing exactly what alcoholics DO.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 146
Ok... From my own experience.... Sell the house NOW! Before the divorce is finalized! Please!
My ex-husband (not an alcoholic) received our house in the divorce, in exchange for not having any rights to my retirement. The idea was brilliant in theory. The equity in our home, at the time, was equal to the balance in my retirement. I thought, perfect! The kids could keep staying in the house they were born and raised in, and he would have no claim on my pension! Huge mistake. I called our mortgage company about 6 months prior to when our divorce was finalized. They said that once I received my divorce decree and the new title that was solely in my ex's name, to call them and they would remove me from the mortgage.
Well, approximately 3 months prior to our divorce, he stopped paying the mortgage. I didn't know about it. He ran into some "tough times" with money. He is self-employed and lost a huge contract. He never informed me of this. When I called the mortgage company after receiving the divorce decree and a copy of the title of the house, which is now only in his name, they wouldn't release me from the mortgage. Their reasoning for this was because he was over 90 days behind and he no longer had the income to support the mortgage payment! Yes, I am stuck with this mortgage and I don't even have any rights to the house! So, now I am unable to buy a house of my own and I am stuck renting for the foreseeable future, which is WAY more than a mortgage would be on a pretty nice house in my area.
Get the house on the market ASAP! Please don't make the same mistake I did! AND, my ex-husband didn't even have addiction as a factor. Please!
My ex-husband (not an alcoholic) received our house in the divorce, in exchange for not having any rights to my retirement. The idea was brilliant in theory. The equity in our home, at the time, was equal to the balance in my retirement. I thought, perfect! The kids could keep staying in the house they were born and raised in, and he would have no claim on my pension! Huge mistake. I called our mortgage company about 6 months prior to when our divorce was finalized. They said that once I received my divorce decree and the new title that was solely in my ex's name, to call them and they would remove me from the mortgage.
Well, approximately 3 months prior to our divorce, he stopped paying the mortgage. I didn't know about it. He ran into some "tough times" with money. He is self-employed and lost a huge contract. He never informed me of this. When I called the mortgage company after receiving the divorce decree and a copy of the title of the house, which is now only in his name, they wouldn't release me from the mortgage. Their reasoning for this was because he was over 90 days behind and he no longer had the income to support the mortgage payment! Yes, I am stuck with this mortgage and I don't even have any rights to the house! So, now I am unable to buy a house of my own and I am stuck renting for the foreseeable future, which is WAY more than a mortgage would be on a pretty nice house in my area.
Get the house on the market ASAP! Please don't make the same mistake I did! AND, my ex-husband didn't even have addiction as a factor. Please!
Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 13,560
I accepted a promissory note from my XAH, it was called a marriage certificate. If he could not follow through with the one, there is no way he would on anything else LOL. I think of it that way all the time.
Don't let him con you into that, it would not be worth the paper it's written on. A mortgage company will never ever release you from the lean without him doing a refi or him going through a qualified assumption, which is rare these days. Do not sign any quit claim until you have proof one of the two have happened.
Don't let him con you into that, it would not be worth the paper it's written on. A mortgage company will never ever release you from the lean without him doing a refi or him going through a qualified assumption, which is rare these days. Do not sign any quit claim until you have proof one of the two have happened.
Currently Active Users Viewing this Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
