Reasonable expectations?

Old 07-30-2015, 10:19 AM
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Reasonable expectations?

I do want to preface this with acknowledging that I realize that "expectations" of any kind are dangerous with an A. However, as a wife I also feel that I should be able to have at least the most burning needs satisfied by my husband - even if he's struggling with knowing he's an A and can't quite find it in him to fix that.

AH has been really making an effort (not successfully, but hey - progress not perfection for now right?) to stop drinking. One of our 2 main issues has become much less a problem as a result. He's no longer constantly either drunk or hungover/withdrawing. He even has days at a time when he doesn't drink at all - sadly, this is a vast improvement. I am "ok" with this for now and have let go of keeping track of him and all those other things that used to make me crazy.

However, the other huge issue the drinking eventually caused was the lack of closeness. He makes all the right statements, hugs me, tells me how much he wants me, how lucky he is, etc. That is until the kids are in bed and we could actually be close on any real level (not just sex either). As soon as the kids are gone, and I try to pick up where we were and cuddle, or god forbid insinuate or attempt to start anything more, he shuts down. Sometimes he just disappears to go to bed, sometimes he tells me he'll be right in to go to bed with me and just never comes in until well after I've fallen asleep. Some mornings I wake to find he's obviously drank, sometimes not. He even jumps straight out of bed without cuddling up like he used to - although he wants me to hug and snuggle him in the kitchen when I get up. WTF???

I don't know if he just isn't capable of being close to me right now, or if this is some sort of manipulation or what - and frankly, it doesn't really matter what the motivation really is right now. I can't handle the constant pull me close/push me away. I need to approach this with him and would like to be able to tell him the minimum I expect from him emotionally to live right now - I really feel like this is a deal-breaker - and if he can't we need to devolve to "roommates" until he can provide it. If things continue, I don't think our marriage will survive this.

Is this an unreasonable request given that he is still actively drinking, even though he is "trying" and going to AA? I just don't feel like it's fair he gets to do this to me and expect me to be ok with it. I'm not ready to leave, but I also can't continue this pattern with him ...

Sorry this is so long! Thanks if you got to the end - and for any ESH you can offer.
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Old 07-30-2015, 10:38 AM
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I am not sure if it is reasonable to have expectations of closeness / intimacy with an A. I can tell you , you're not alone, I too struggle with the push me pull me scenerio. I have learned that I need to decide what my needs are , and with any relationship if they are not getting met to ; 1. clearly explain what I need. 2. if the other person is not capable or willing to give it , decide on my own if I can live with it .
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Old 07-30-2015, 10:38 AM
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I had the same problem when I was married to XAH, and someone said this to me:

Intimacy and predictability are a reasonable expectations for A husband. But intimacy and predictability are not reasonable expectations for YOUR husband.
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Old 07-30-2015, 10:42 AM
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It is possible he has developed impotency, and any situation that could lead to him being mortally embarrassed is avoided. The pattern suggests he doesn't mind cuddling when/where there is no "threat" of this being discovered, but his strong avoidance of being in any situation of when/where cuddling, etc. could progress to "more" and his mortifying situation being discovered, and his shame uncovered.

Just one "take" on the set of circumstances. This may or may not be the case, but it's one possible explanation, for the pattern.

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Old 07-30-2015, 10:45 AM
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Ditto - it was impossible while RAH was actively drinking.

Did you happen to check out my thread on intimacy last week? The article I linked had a great graph showing how intimacy works in "normies" vs. addicts; it really helped me to see how I'd been going to a dry well & getting more & more upset when I couldn't force it to produce water.

http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...y-process.html
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Old 07-30-2015, 10:55 AM
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I'm not sure I understand. Do you want him to "act as if" he felt close to you? It doesn't sound like he's capable of it right now. I certainly understand your needs and frustration, but active alcoholics are poor bets for intimacy. Sounds like the real deal breaker is getting (and staying) sober. Not drinking from time to time won't lead to that. Going to a rehab and getting in a program can lead to sobriety. Although that won't guarantee he will become the husband you want.
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Old 07-30-2015, 11:05 AM
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Chronic alcoholism does have disastrous consequences on potency. I've also read that impotence caused by alcoholism is irreversible. You have perfectly normal expectations as a woman of your partner. However, your partner is an alcoholic, so you should lower your expectations. As the disease progresses, you should expect less, not only when it comes to intimacy. The promises are broken more often, you cannot rely on him, you can actually expect that he will not be there for you when you need him most.

That's how alcoholism works, sorry.
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Old 07-30-2015, 11:09 AM
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Being less visibly drunk, less often, isn't "progress" for an alcoholic. Unless you mean the progression of the disease.

If he's anything like I was, it takes every ounce of effort he has to be "less visibly drunk less often."

I don't think there's a chance in the world you will get anything remotely like what you want and need until and unless he embraces recovery and has worked at it for quite a while.
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Old 07-30-2015, 11:42 AM
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Thank you for all of your replies.

I understand that true intimacy isn't possible right now. What I can't understand is the "I feel close to you" and then suddenly "back off" attitude. I guess that's the predictable part mentioned.

I guess I've just got to hold him at arm's length until I can get my head together. I know I'm not ready to make an ultimatum right now, but it really does seem more and more like that's where it's going to end ... either he gets REAL help and recovery, or we are done here.

Ugh! I just read another thread describing this mess as being a "ragdoll on a roller coaster" - that describes me to a "T" today. He had a month under his belt and things felt good; I let the hope creep back in. And now, we're almost right back where we started.

BTW re the impotence issue. I guess it's possible? When we hit crisis mode last year (and I finally realized just how bad things were), it had become hit or miss whether anything would actually "work". That hasn't happened lately though. Although to be honest, when I brought this up once a few months ago when we were talking about things, he acted like he had no idea what I was talking about - not denying it happened but just [crickets]. So, maybe?
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Old 07-30-2015, 11:46 AM
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How long has it been like this? I am trying to figure out if there is a correlation moderating and lack of closeness? Were you more intimate when he was drinking?

All that aside alcoholism kills a sex life and I am sorry to say when they stop drinking it doesn't mean its going to come back. I agree with the other poster who said it sounds like he is avoiding you in situations that might end up sexual and offering you affection in situations where he knows its not going to happen.

I need to approach this with him and would like to be able to tell him the minimum I expect from him emotionally to live right now - I really feel like this is a deal-breaker - and if he can't we need to devolve to "roommates" until he can
provide it.
Is this a Boundary or an Ultimatum? I will be honest I don't think telling someone a "minimum" of how they are going to behave emotionally whom is still an active alcoholic will net you a great result. It usually doesn't work with Sober people either.

Perhaps its time to lay some boundaries about living with an active alcoholic. Perhaps its time to address the elephant in the room that while the situation is improved, its still not where it should be.
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Old 07-30-2015, 11:47 AM
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When I'm distracted and depressed and don't feel at my best, I don't want anything to do with sex. I mean, it could be a lot of things from impotency, to covering up drinking, to depression, or whatever.

I finally concluded with my XAH that if our interactions were confusing and inexplicable, it was probably only explained by active addiction. And then I had to decide whether or not I could like with that.
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Old 07-30-2015, 11:54 AM
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there can also be issues with "sober" sex....its one thing to get a buzz going, get in the mood and have a go and having do try and do the whole romance/foreplay/i'm naked your naked/intercourse thing. it can feel VERY weird, uncomfortable, awkward - overly exposed and vulnerable - without the liquid courage.
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Old 07-30-2015, 01:54 PM
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Redatlanta - And therein lies the problem with addressing the precise issue - we have already addressed the elephant in the room with regard to his "recovery" if you can call it that at this point. I am not ready to make an ultimatum right now, and it does seem that this would be that (if I'm really honest with myself). The emotional unavailability was one of the big issues that brought things to a head so to speak with addressing the alcoholism - the other side of the equation was when he's drinking like he was then he's completely unreliable on any level and he is a mean, vindictive drunk. That is one boundary I set from the beginning - if we ever find ourselves with him in my face again, the girls and I are gone.

I guess I'm going to have to work on managing my expectations for now until I can decide whether I can live with this. The biggest one being that I can't count on his recovery. If he does great, we can then see what is left to build on. But this whole thing could just be one long mess with no end in sight if he keeps drinking. I guess feeling in limbo is a sign that I need to stand still with this for a bit.

On a related note, has anyone read the "Transforming Our Losses" book? I saw it mentioned here recently and it was one of the "new" books our literature person brought in today (to the meeting I wasn't supposed to be at today - a whole other story); she said it helped her mourn the "death" of her idea of the perfect marriage. I figure maybe the universe was trying to tell me something, so I'm going to give it a shot - sometimes you just have to knock me upside the head to get my attention I guess lol!

Thank you all again so much! I don't know what I would do without this board - I don't always post, but I read A LOT.
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Old 07-30-2015, 02:50 PM
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Wherismyunicorn......there are few things that a man fears more than not being able to perform, sexually. Most locker room jokes are formed around this fact.

There are few things that an alcoholic fears than the idea of never being able to drink again---to live completely without alcohol.

It looks like y our husband is living with two of the worst fears a man can have.

I was the medical co-ordinator of an alcoholism program for several years. I had to talk with lots of couples about their sex life.
When I would ask about it with the wife in the room...the alcoholic in question would mumble something about it being "fine". Then, when I spoke with the wife alone.....they would say "Ms. Dandylion---he hasn't been able to get it up forever"
Of course, I referred them to a urologist who I worked closely with on these sexual issues.
Anvil makes a good point that even in complete sobriety---the fear of sexual performance shuts a lot of men down---even when they love their wife.
There are many variables, also...like age and physical health, in general.

Demanding performance usually makes it much worse for men---the anxiety, alone, in this situation makes performance impossible.
As far as getting a man to admit his sexual fears to ANYBODY is harder than gettting blood from a turnip.
For my patients, they would talk to me after they got to like and trust me....and I turned them over to the urologist who was very skilled in dealing with this problem (thank God). LOL.

Personally, as you describe the issue....I think the underlying problem that he is an alcoholic who is not in authentic recovery (yet) makes other expectations unreasonable.
Does he know exactly where you are coming from on this. In o ther words, does HE know what we now know?

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Old 07-30-2015, 03:50 PM
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The thing is, you can expect whatever you want, but expecting it doesn't make it so. I'm reminded of my son's driving instructor who told him to expect the other drivers to obey the law, but be prepared in case they don't.

We all have expectations of the people close to us, especially spouses. That does not automatically mean they live up to those expectations. There are really only two choices when it comes down to it. You either change your expectations, or change the role he plays in your life.

I wish I had the years back that I spent waiting for my husband to change into the husband I wanted.

L
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Old 07-30-2015, 05:07 PM
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I agree 100%. My ex told me for years that I was the problem-that he couldn't live up to my expectations bc they were so high and I wanted him to be perfect. Um, not at all-my expectations were that that he face whatever issues head on, should they affect our marriage, and not deny them, and to act like a grown up responsible human being. I expected that seeing as the ring was on his finger that I would come first-not his mom, not alcohol. Sadly, he was correct-he's an addict and mommas boy to the max and therefore those expectations could not be met. I was not willing to lower myself to what he considered love and take one more day of excuses for his demons. So, yeah, your expectations are out of line if your hubby is an A. Peace to you
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Old 07-31-2015, 09:32 AM
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Whenever you put expectations up for someone with a drug addiction you find yourself always getting discouraged. Just be open and supportive and if you do set goals make sure they are logical, make sense, and don't get to the point of getting you're hope up for them fulfilling every obligation you make.

It's not always easy. Thank you
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Old 07-31-2015, 10:07 AM
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Thank you! I've decided to write him an email (whether I send it or not; I haven't decided yet) and try to put it all out there as rationally and nicely as possible. If nothing else, it should give me a starting place to set some boundaries.

I'm not willing to leave yet, but we both have a lot of work individually to do before we can even start working on "us". I can do my part and see if he picks up and does his. If he does, then maybe we can work with what's left and fix the damage.

At least this way if we don't make it, I can live with myself knowing I did everything "I" could, and I will be in a better place with me overall - no regrets or what-ifs. No sense leaving one bad situation on a whim and ending up in yet another one down the road, right? I am trying to pick someone to approach to be my sponsor and work the steps.

I can't even begin to express to everyone here how much of a god-send it has been to be able to come here and vent and receive not only a dose of reality but understanding. Thank you again!
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