Pipoi's Post-Divorce Latest Misadventure
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Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,349
Originally Posted by PippiLngstockng 
Maybe. But I dated a few guys before I met the surgeon, and I highly doubt they had addiction issues. And before my marriage, I didn't have a history of getting involved with addicts...
So, no, I don't think two makes a pattern.
And I think the world of divorced 40-year-old men isn't necessarily so appealing...
You people are tough. No wonder I don't hang out here that much any more.
So, no, I don't think two makes a pattern.
And I think the world of divorced 40-year-old men isn't necessarily so appealing...
You people are tough. No wonder I don't hang out here that much any more.
And, another guy turns out is an adult child of an alcoholic (ACOA). We went on one date but he and I decided neither of us were really ready for a relationship so we chose to be friends. He is now a dear friend of mine and I work program stuff with him all the time, he's like a sponsee to me. He won't try Al Anon but he did borrow my copy of Codependent No More. We get along well and spend a lot of time together, but a friendship is much more up my alley right now with him, LOL. His drama is worse than mine!
And, then another guy is reserved, doesn't communicate on a daily basis, but we've had 3 dates and the last one was 6 hours the other night. He's been a gentlemen, didn't try anything, seems to have his life in order, not one red flag, NOT ONE. And, of course, he's the one I can't get a read on. So, that tells me it's time for me to get back into my program and work on ME. Because, this guy is healthy and I can already tell by my codie Spidey senses that I am NOT. I am searching for drama where there needn't be any.
I am re-reading the book, "Women Who Love Too Much" by Robin Norwood. I highly recommend it if you haven't read it yet. Very eye opening as to why we choose men who are not only addicts, but men who have commitment issues, mental health issues, men who can't communicate or are closed off emotionally, etc. There's a whole lot of unhealthy out there and there's nothing wrong with searching for a healthy datable partner. The problem is when it consumes your life and creates drama.
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Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 16,246
Every time Pippi has a new thread....my mind, invariably, drifts back to the book: "Not To People Like Us"....written by Susan Weitzman, PH. D. It is subtitled--Hidden Abuse in Upscale Marriages. (also can be relationships as well as m arriage). I highly recommend it to those who are open to reading it. It really opened my eyes wider.
It deals with a subject that is very seldom ever discussed----that if a woman is privileged in some way---or even perceived to be privileged----there is no...or....very little compassion offered for her abuse as compared to other women. This also applies to therapists and abuse workers and other people that offer services.
I offer this recommendation in the spirit of enlightment and sharing of information. LOL! I h ave shared this book with Pippi more than once by private P.M. It is not a criticism of her.
I do not wish to fight with anyone about this.
Just a recommendation for those who may have an interest.
dandylion
***One can get the book very inexpensively on Amazon.com
It deals with a subject that is very seldom ever discussed----that if a woman is privileged in some way---or even perceived to be privileged----there is no...or....very little compassion offered for her abuse as compared to other women. This also applies to therapists and abuse workers and other people that offer services.
I offer this recommendation in the spirit of enlightment and sharing of information. LOL! I h ave shared this book with Pippi more than once by private P.M. It is not a criticism of her.
I do not wish to fight with anyone about this.
Just a recommendation for those who may have an interest.
dandylion
***One can get the book very inexpensively on Amazon.com
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Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 1,572
Dandylion, I cannot tell you how many times I have been met with "but you're a lawyer!" when I have shared my situation. While I have never been married to a high-powered man (my ex-H was a stay at home dad, and my AH is in a highly skilled blue collar trade), there is ABSOLUTELY an assumption by many people that because I have a certain education level (and, many people incorrectly assume, a certain income level), that I am "too smart" to be in a situation like this, and it should be as simple as writing a check to walk out the door. I know that's different from the point of your post, but I think it's a similar phenomenon.
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Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,452
Pippi, for me, I think the most important factor is time. Lots of time.
We are re-programming ourselves from a lifetime of a certain type of perception and behavior. It takes a while. We have to figure our what "feels familiar" and see if it is really healthy, or if it just feels "similar" and "similar" is reassuring because we've been there before. We need to really internalize that "familiar" and "similar" do not automatically mean healthy.
I think Thumper's post about "blind spots" instead of "red flags" is very perceptive. We start from unexpressed assumptions about what our lives will be like and who we will need as our partner. For me, this time period is looking deep under the easy assumptions to see first what it is that we are assuming - it can be very surprising what linkages we are unknowingly making.
You are asking good questions now when you meet someone, and you are looking at the information you are getting and really sifting it now, and that is great. You are putting a "pause" between stimulus and the knee-jerk reactions that most of us had from being married/in relationship with an alcoholic. You are seeing many people, and comparing them.
In some ways, it is almost as if you are backing into figuring out who you are, on your own, as a separate person, by digesting how being with different kinds of people makes you feel, seeing what it brings out in you.
I'd guess that is where you are getting the suggestions from some on this thread to just stop dating and figure yourself out. And, it might be that you will get to a point where you want to be yourself, just yourself in response to you, not to anything external for a while. But what you are doing is giving you insights, and that is useful and great.
We each have to follow our own path to enlightenment. The funny thing is that when we each get there, we will all see each other, having arrived on totally different roads.
It's been almost 3 years since I ran away from the devastating abusive soul crushing marriage I was in. A while ago I went back and reread my own threads, and it was humbling and scary to see how much trauma and self destruction I had suffered.
My ex husband was a brilliant man and a rageful one with a subtle grasp of how to put me down as well as an overt hurtful abusive tongue. Until I left, I didn't understand that I had been living in his hurricane of rage.
My choice was to live alone. To be by myself. Solitude was like nectar to me when I first left. And I healed, and played out who I had been and how I had contributed to the devastation of our marriage as I proceeded through the difficult negotations toward divorce.
Then I took a long time off without dating much beyond some mechanical dinner excursions with men I wasn't really interested in.
In December, after almost two and a half years and a very lonely Thanksgiving, I woke up one morning and said "This is not how I want to live anymore. I am ready for a partner. I want someone to play with, to laugh with, to hug."
And someone has appeared. It is early days, and there are no red flags. He is everything my once adored husband was - brilliant, funny, a force to be reckoned with. And he is everything my once abusive husband never was - kind, thoughtful, all heart, ready to take care of me before anyone and everyone, as he did many years before his beloved wife died several years ago.
I don't know where this is going, and I don't need to know. It is different and I am finding the qualities that so mesmerized me in my abusive adored former husband in a very different package. He's not anything like who I thought I would find if I ever found someone again. He's so much more.
I think from having been on my own for going on 3 years, I now believe that I am worthy of being treated well and that is something I never knew before. Not from my husband, not from my father, mother or brother. To them I was a possession to be enjoyed when they felt like it and tossed when they didn't or abused when they needed a scapegoat.
Now I am understanding that I can have peace and self respect all by myself and be very happy. I am not choosing so much out of need anymore or from fear of being alone or to have someone else validate my self worth. Self worth is more resident in the core of me than ever before. I am content on my own. Lonely, but content.
For me, I am finally just settling down into the heart of myself without all the emotional pushes and pulls and disruptions of living with dysfunctional and/or alcoholic people who intruded their way into my self perceptions.
Time and reflection seem to be leading me to peace these days.
I wish that for you, too, Pippi.
ShootingStar1
We are re-programming ourselves from a lifetime of a certain type of perception and behavior. It takes a while. We have to figure our what "feels familiar" and see if it is really healthy, or if it just feels "similar" and "similar" is reassuring because we've been there before. We need to really internalize that "familiar" and "similar" do not automatically mean healthy.
I think Thumper's post about "blind spots" instead of "red flags" is very perceptive. We start from unexpressed assumptions about what our lives will be like and who we will need as our partner. For me, this time period is looking deep under the easy assumptions to see first what it is that we are assuming - it can be very surprising what linkages we are unknowingly making.
You are asking good questions now when you meet someone, and you are looking at the information you are getting and really sifting it now, and that is great. You are putting a "pause" between stimulus and the knee-jerk reactions that most of us had from being married/in relationship with an alcoholic. You are seeing many people, and comparing them.
In some ways, it is almost as if you are backing into figuring out who you are, on your own, as a separate person, by digesting how being with different kinds of people makes you feel, seeing what it brings out in you.
I'd guess that is where you are getting the suggestions from some on this thread to just stop dating and figure yourself out. And, it might be that you will get to a point where you want to be yourself, just yourself in response to you, not to anything external for a while. But what you are doing is giving you insights, and that is useful and great.
We each have to follow our own path to enlightenment. The funny thing is that when we each get there, we will all see each other, having arrived on totally different roads.
It's been almost 3 years since I ran away from the devastating abusive soul crushing marriage I was in. A while ago I went back and reread my own threads, and it was humbling and scary to see how much trauma and self destruction I had suffered.
My ex husband was a brilliant man and a rageful one with a subtle grasp of how to put me down as well as an overt hurtful abusive tongue. Until I left, I didn't understand that I had been living in his hurricane of rage.
My choice was to live alone. To be by myself. Solitude was like nectar to me when I first left. And I healed, and played out who I had been and how I had contributed to the devastation of our marriage as I proceeded through the difficult negotations toward divorce.
Then I took a long time off without dating much beyond some mechanical dinner excursions with men I wasn't really interested in.
In December, after almost two and a half years and a very lonely Thanksgiving, I woke up one morning and said "This is not how I want to live anymore. I am ready for a partner. I want someone to play with, to laugh with, to hug."
And someone has appeared. It is early days, and there are no red flags. He is everything my once adored husband was - brilliant, funny, a force to be reckoned with. And he is everything my once abusive husband never was - kind, thoughtful, all heart, ready to take care of me before anyone and everyone, as he did many years before his beloved wife died several years ago.
I don't know where this is going, and I don't need to know. It is different and I am finding the qualities that so mesmerized me in my abusive adored former husband in a very different package. He's not anything like who I thought I would find if I ever found someone again. He's so much more.
I think from having been on my own for going on 3 years, I now believe that I am worthy of being treated well and that is something I never knew before. Not from my husband, not from my father, mother or brother. To them I was a possession to be enjoyed when they felt like it and tossed when they didn't or abused when they needed a scapegoat.
Now I am understanding that I can have peace and self respect all by myself and be very happy. I am not choosing so much out of need anymore or from fear of being alone or to have someone else validate my self worth. Self worth is more resident in the core of me than ever before. I am content on my own. Lonely, but content.
For me, I am finally just settling down into the heart of myself without all the emotional pushes and pulls and disruptions of living with dysfunctional and/or alcoholic people who intruded their way into my self perceptions.
Time and reflection seem to be leading me to peace these days.
I wish that for you, too, Pippi.
ShootingStar1
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Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,423
So sorry you had to go through this Pippi.
What a jerk.
Sometimes despite our efforts to pick a nice guy it's not until we get into the relationship that we realise we picked the wrong one.
Good for you for the way you handled this all.
What a jerk.
Sometimes despite our efforts to pick a nice guy it's not until we get into the relationship that we realise we picked the wrong one.
Good for you for the way you handled this all.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,038
Originally Posted by Refiner
Pippi, did you get your stuff? How'd it go?
He wrote to tell me he couldn't do Tuesday, but would meet me Thursday (night), where we first met, to give me my skis and 'end this story where it began'.
Then last night he sent me a photo of a road race that was taking place yesterday evening underneath his window. And he was online to see if I would respond, which I didn't.
Seems he wanted to open the lines of communication with a topic of shared interest ( my sport, his view).
I miss his place. It was a nice retreat for me and he was kind to me there. I went for runs on the trails nearby and he cooked me dinner. I came back at dusk one night and he was worried and was about to go out looking for me. He had to stay in a lot because he's on call half his life. But I liked his being on call and going to the hospital in the middle of the night to operate, or check on a patient.
I liked his music and the colors he chose, his location in the historic center of the modest country town.
Mostly, though, he came to see me. We live 2 hours away from one another. He would drive every week after operating all day, to meet me at one restaurant or another near my village. It was exhausting for him but he wanted to build the relationship.
I never let him in my apartment. It is tiny, messy, and yet a sanctuary for the children and I.
He took me to gorgeous chalets and hotels. I never asked him to. But he became increasingly resentful, feeling that he was investing more in the relationship than I was. This is where he was going astray. He had lingering issues with his ex-wife, who he portrayed as beautiful, brilliant, and selfish. He says he chased after her constantly and was always trying to win her good graces, and she used him.
My girlfriends had been on the surgeon's side since I started seeing him. They know I was not behaving entirely loyally towards him, and they told me to get my act together. Because it seemed like a potential win-win situation. They know me well, and he was looking a lot more wholesome than I was.
But everyone agrees that his reaction at the nightclub was atrocious. Particularly the bit about throwing my stuff outside the room. And his response that he's the one who paid for the hotel. Oh, just horrible. Shockingly low class for someone as genteel as he is supposed to be. You can't imagine how well-heeled people in his world normally are. Although he has always reminded me of the annoying and demanding New Yorkers I grew up around.
So I am in trouble because I let him into my heart. I have this affection for him that I didn't factor in when I told myself if things didn't work out I would just end things and move on. Before the nightclub scene, I could see us keeping the routine. It isn't like I am all that available. I have the 4 children non-stop 45 weeks of the year. I train 10 hours a week and I have loads of work and, thankfully, loads of friends. I wasn't planning on dropping any of that to make more time for him. And he was sort of okay with that.
You know, I let some things slide that I shouldn't have. The badgering about being reachable when he wanted me was excessive and he made dramas over it. I could have just said from the start clearly to cut it out. But I didn't. I have myself to blame.
I also should have told him to stop spending so much money sometimes. It was really nice to be spoiled, and it did me some good! And then it was enough. I was sated pretty quickly, happily. I don't want a luxurious lifestyle. I want a healthy, honest one.
The annoying thing that I am getting to in all this excessive writing, is that minus the dreadful, horrible nightclub scene...I had a real role to play in the challenges we were having. Both by my own less than honest behavior and my not always setting limits and boundaries where I needed to.
I know that nightclub scene was his fault. But if I had responded to the red flags we never would have gotten to that place. No one forced me to stay out past my wishes that night.
I am learning to listen to and trust my own voice. But with the surgeon, he was so strong in expressing himself, and I liked and was amused by his energy and passion. But I sometimes had a hard time finding my voice when faced with his. He really wanted to hear it. I give him credit for that. He really listened, except for the nightclub scene. It was I who found myself unable to say what was needed. And that made things challenging for both of us.
Thank you, as always, for being there. I read your kind words yesterday and you helped me feel supportive and get honest with myself.
Have a great day everyone!!!
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Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: atlanta, ga
Posts: 3,581
I understand that he has issues with an ex wife but you have issues with an ex husband too. People shouldn't pressure people to be uncomfortable with expectations to answer phones and contribute to dialogue in the manner in which they think it should be. Certainly it can be discussed, but your comfort level is equally as important as his. If you were unable or unwilling to give what he expected or wanted then that's on him - he should have moved on.
You also own him NOTHING for what he spent. NOTHING. You aren't an object for someone to purchase. That is also on him. Considering that he feels his ex wife used him it is clear to me this is his MO - spend, lavish and so forth but it isn't done out of desires of his own or just for the pleasure of another - it comes with a price tag. A hefty one.
Yes you should have set boundaries. There are probably other things you might have done. Maybe you will next time but the good fortune you have is that one night it showed you who he is. He is physically abusive and a drug user. Can you imagine having become really seriously involved with this man and not known? It happens. You are lucky.
This is how I interpret what you wrote. Everyone makes mistakes in relationships. We aren't handed a script. I'm glad you were shown his true self.
You also own him NOTHING for what he spent. NOTHING. You aren't an object for someone to purchase. That is also on him. Considering that he feels his ex wife used him it is clear to me this is his MO - spend, lavish and so forth but it isn't done out of desires of his own or just for the pleasure of another - it comes with a price tag. A hefty one.
Yes you should have set boundaries. There are probably other things you might have done. Maybe you will next time but the good fortune you have is that one night it showed you who he is. He is physically abusive and a drug user. Can you imagine having become really seriously involved with this man and not known? It happens. You are lucky.
This is how I interpret what you wrote. Everyone makes mistakes in relationships. We aren't handed a script. I'm glad you were shown his true self.
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Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 2,393
I agree with everything redatlanta has written. Thanks for sharing, Pippi. I'm actually happy your Fairytale Man showed his true colors so quickly and you responded by removing yourself from his grips. Please don't get sucked back in as he starts up the Fairytale Him again.
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Location: Miami, FL
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What it is interesting in your writing about this man is that you talk a lot about his home, where he took you, his social standing, etc. and almost nothing about his personal qualities and your interactions before the blow out. You speak of how you loved his home, music, etc. Not anything about interactions with him...the lunches with him, the way he scrunched his nose, that joke he always made about your green shirt, etc.
Also, you went on a trip with someone whom you would not invite into your home. If you do not trust him enough to see how you actually live your life, does it make sense to go to a hotel with him? If you did not let him see who you really were, is it surprising that he did not let you see who he really was?
Look we have all been there. We have all made mistakes in judgement. I read letters from years ago and turn beet red at what I wrote. But it is possible to move on.
Also, you went on a trip with someone whom you would not invite into your home. If you do not trust him enough to see how you actually live your life, does it make sense to go to a hotel with him? If you did not let him see who you really were, is it surprising that he did not let you see who he really was?
Look we have all been there. We have all made mistakes in judgement. I read letters from years ago and turn beet red at what I wrote. But it is possible to move on.
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Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,038
Originally Posted by miamifella
What it is interesting in your writing about this man is that you talk a lot about his home, where he took you, his social standing, etc. and almost nothing about his personal qualities and your interactions before the blow out. You speak of how you loved his home, music, etc. Not anything about interactions with him...the lunches with him, the way he scrunched his nose, that joke he always made about your green shirt, etc.
Also, you went on a trip with someone whom you would not invite into your home. If you do not trust him enough to see how you actually live your life, does it make sense to go to a hotel with him? If you did not let him see who you really were, is it surprising that he did not let you see who he really was?
Look we have all been there. We have all made mistakes in judgement. I read letters from years ago and turn beet red at what I wrote. But it is possible to move on.
Also, you went on a trip with someone whom you would not invite into your home. If you do not trust him enough to see how you actually live your life, does it make sense to go to a hotel with him? If you did not let him see who you really were, is it surprising that he did not let you see who he really was?
Look we have all been there. We have all made mistakes in judgement. I read letters from years ago and turn beet red at what I wrote. But it is possible to move on.
Anyway, I went with a domestic violence counsellor's interesting advice: enjoy the men/ski holidays/fine restaurants. This offers me some pleasant diversions and a (until recently!) nice break. Don't let any man into the family house! until I have been in a solid relationship with someone for 2 years.
Finally, the surgeon called this afternoon. He rescheduled - again. Said he had to operate. Then told me he is going tomorrow to sign the papers for the bigger place in the ski resort, as he'd originally planned. I didn't ask for that information.
Too much rescheduling. Too much trying to mess with me.
Getting sucked into the drama, here. Just like xah tries to do with me - still. I am pretty good at ignoring xah because he is just trying to get attention and he bores me. Though DS12 just announced at the dinner table that he walked into Dad drinking beer in the laundry room during their last visit with him. That got me going for a bit.
Okay. If I am ever in a relationship again (which I will be) I have to not let myself get dragged along on a stupid roller coaster ride!
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Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 214
What you experience as meanness in these forums might be frustration and worry, and hurt feelings.
Who has the best, shiniest surface? The person with the worst interior to hide, that's who. The kind of car a person drives, or how they live, can be a real expression of their nature: or a trap of false signals, flashes of things, which distract people from what's inside. It doesn't matter if you are skiing together in Gstaad or snowshoeing from a shack. Abuse is abuse.
It's off-putting to hear you mention so much of the 'stuff.' Being in a chalet with a surgeon is meaningless. These signifiers are part of the inauthentic nature of abuse, alcoholism and narcissism. I didn't experience the 'good stuff' in my life as delightful. It was a trap, and an illusion for the outside world. And I sense that you sort of side with the abusers on this: having quality things and status is a reflection of a high-quality character.
Abuse happens when a man pays to fix a woman's 1990 junker so she can get to work, and thinks she owes him part of her minimum wage paycheck. And it happens when a man buys a woman a luxury sportscar, and feels entitled to know where she drives.
Abusers come in every shape, gender and socioeconomic variation. I feel genuine concern that you are missing something very fundamental. And the people here who have struggled with the financial devastation of having an addicted family member are going to take offense at the general way you seem to value status.
I wish you the best, and hope that you create a life that fosters your own growth, in your own time, and meets your needs and those of your children. It's good that you stopped the cycle of abuse this time, before it became a cycle!
Who has the best, shiniest surface? The person with the worst interior to hide, that's who. The kind of car a person drives, or how they live, can be a real expression of their nature: or a trap of false signals, flashes of things, which distract people from what's inside. It doesn't matter if you are skiing together in Gstaad or snowshoeing from a shack. Abuse is abuse.
It's off-putting to hear you mention so much of the 'stuff.' Being in a chalet with a surgeon is meaningless. These signifiers are part of the inauthentic nature of abuse, alcoholism and narcissism. I didn't experience the 'good stuff' in my life as delightful. It was a trap, and an illusion for the outside world. And I sense that you sort of side with the abusers on this: having quality things and status is a reflection of a high-quality character.
Abuse happens when a man pays to fix a woman's 1990 junker so she can get to work, and thinks she owes him part of her minimum wage paycheck. And it happens when a man buys a woman a luxury sportscar, and feels entitled to know where she drives.
Abusers come in every shape, gender and socioeconomic variation. I feel genuine concern that you are missing something very fundamental. And the people here who have struggled with the financial devastation of having an addicted family member are going to take offense at the general way you seem to value status.
I wish you the best, and hope that you create a life that fosters your own growth, in your own time, and meets your needs and those of your children. It's good that you stopped the cycle of abuse this time, before it became a cycle!
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