Dealing with a divorce lawyer that doesn't get addiction
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Dealing with a divorce lawyer that doesn't get addiction
Went to see my lawyer about my separation yesterday and found the meeting disheartening. When I told her he claims he hasn't had a drink in two months, she said 'that's great'. What the??? I told her he has an addiction and even if it was true, he was just dry and all the addictive behaviours are still there. And she just looked at me blankly and said I'll have to bring that up during the collaborative sessions with him and have something to back that up. I'm so frustrated - she has no idea about alcoholism obviously - I don't feel I will get the support I need from her.
And she makes it seem like joint custody and 50/50 access is a foregone conclusion, particularly since he is now not drinking. I am gathering my thoughts and will be calling her this week to say I need her to be in my corner and fighting for what's right for me and my son - not just giving in to him. I can't accept what she said, especially as it contradicts what my province's justice website says about custody and access. If she does not support me, I am afraid I will have to look for another lawyer. This just adds a whole new layer of stress to my situation that I do not need!
And she makes it seem like joint custody and 50/50 access is a foregone conclusion, particularly since he is now not drinking. I am gathering my thoughts and will be calling her this week to say I need her to be in my corner and fighting for what's right for me and my son - not just giving in to him. I can't accept what she said, especially as it contradicts what my province's justice website says about custody and access. If she does not support me, I am afraid I will have to look for another lawyer. This just adds a whole new layer of stress to my situation that I do not need!
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Lawyers work with facts.
Unless you can prove he is still drinking, it's He said She said.
I'm sorry you're at the point of divorce. It's not going to be easy and just because you say something is true doesn't mean a judge will accept that. Document, document, document. Save every text and email and message. Write down every interaction you have with him.
Unless you can prove he is still drinking, it's He said She said.
I'm sorry you're at the point of divorce. It's not going to be easy and just because you say something is true doesn't mean a judge will accept that. Document, document, document. Save every text and email and message. Write down every interaction you have with him.
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First off, your lawyer isn't there to "support" you. Don't expect that. (Trust me, a good therapist is a LOT cheaper!). Even if she DID understand addiction, that's no guarantee that the judge does.
bimini is right. You are going to have to ask what kind of proof she needs and go about getting that. You can hire an addiction expert to testify at the proceedings. That costs money. You can ask her about hiring an expert. It doesn't matter how much SHE understands--SHE is not going to be able to testify as an expert, either. You need someone like an addictions counselor or someone who specializes in the effects of addiction/alcoholism on the family.
bimini is right. You are going to have to ask what kind of proof she needs and go about getting that. You can hire an addiction expert to testify at the proceedings. That costs money. You can ask her about hiring an expert. It doesn't matter how much SHE understands--SHE is not going to be able to testify as an expert, either. You need someone like an addictions counselor or someone who specializes in the effects of addiction/alcoholism on the family.
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You can request a custody evaluation be done, and they are usually conducted by a psychiatrist who should understand addiction. If you have past bank statements that could prove how often he went to liquor stores and bars that could help. My fiancé used that, along with her past history of dui to get supervised visitation. He also had the right to request she take alcohol tests to prove her sobriety. After 1.5 years he finally has full legal custody and she only has rights to supervised visits at the YWCA. It was a long draining ordeal but the kids are worth it.
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We are going to try collaborative family law, which is very common here, where you both work with your lawyers all in one room to work out an agreement and develop problem resolution skills to carry forward. Sounds good, just not sure how this will work with someone who is deceitful and controlling. So there will be no judge. I am not looking to my lawyer for emotional support, but in support for what I want out of this divorce - otherwise, what is she there for? I feel like I'm being told what the likely outcome is and to just accept it. However, that may be fine in a divorce between two ordinary people, but not so much when one is an alcoholic in addition to other personality issues.
What do you do when even your own lawyer is accepting the alcoholic's lies - even before meeting him?
What do you do when even your own lawyer is accepting the alcoholic's lies - even before meeting him?
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Originally Posted by Shirt423 
You can request a custody evaluation be done, and they are usually conducted by a psychiatrist who should understand addiction. If you have past bank statements that could prove how often he went to liquor stores and bars that could help. My fiancé used that, along with her past history of dui to get supervised visitation. He also had the right to request she take alcohol tests to prove her sobriety. After 1.5 years he finally has full legal custody and she only has rights to supervised visits at the YWCA. It was a long draining ordeal but the kids are worth it.
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All cases are resolved with an eye to what a judge would do (or a jury if it's a jury case), even if the case never goes before either one. Because if the case isn't resolved in a "cooperative" way, or settled, it's the judge or jury who will be deciding. Both sides have to look at the case from that view--what would a judge or jury do?
So, best case scenario, your lawyer goes in there, believing in your cause, like Davida against Goliath. It doesn't make a darned bit of difference how passionate she is if the other side knows you don't have any evidence that would convince a judge.
See what I mean?
I've been practicing law for over thirty years, that's how any negotiation works.
So, best case scenario, your lawyer goes in there, believing in your cause, like Davida against Goliath. It doesn't make a darned bit of difference how passionate she is if the other side knows you don't have any evidence that would convince a judge.
See what I mean?
I've been practicing law for over thirty years, that's how any negotiation works.
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Very famous quote from the movie A Few Good Men......
"It doesn't matter what you know, it only matters what you can prove".
I don't think your attorney's attitude means she "believes" his lies - she is looking at this from the standpoint of what she can accomplish with the evidence she has to prove it. if she has no evidence its nothing more than he said she said. Remember that this attorney has probably also dealt with clients that have made accusations that were flat out lies - so she has to proceed with caution.
As another poster stated you can have him evaluated and you can bring in experts - this is going to be costly. I think you should discuss with her if that's something that would help your case.
In the end I'd trust what your attorney has to say even if its not what you want to hear. If you feel she is representing you improperly then that's another scenario. Sometimes its difficult to put aside the emotional aspect and wanting justice and realizing that the system is only about what is legal and nothing else.
"It doesn't matter what you know, it only matters what you can prove".
I don't think your attorney's attitude means she "believes" his lies - she is looking at this from the standpoint of what she can accomplish with the evidence she has to prove it. if she has no evidence its nothing more than he said she said. Remember that this attorney has probably also dealt with clients that have made accusations that were flat out lies - so she has to proceed with caution.
As another poster stated you can have him evaluated and you can bring in experts - this is going to be costly. I think you should discuss with her if that's something that would help your case.
In the end I'd trust what your attorney has to say even if its not what you want to hear. If you feel she is representing you improperly then that's another scenario. Sometimes its difficult to put aside the emotional aspect and wanting justice and realizing that the system is only about what is legal and nothing else.
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I said this recently on another thread, so I'll repeat it here:
The best thing you can do in my experience is request a guardian ad litem to come in and survey the situation and make a recommendation to the court independently of you two and your lawyers. A guardian ad litem will interview you both, take a look at the evidence, and tell the court what they find. If, for example, the GAL thinks your ex needs to complete a treatment program or have a psychiatrist make a recommendation as to his mental health, he will have to fulfill that requirement, as will you if asked of you. My ex, for example, was asked to fulfill a short list of requirements in order to have unsupervised visitation with our daughter. He was unable to fill any of them in a six week period, which showed the court he was still using and was unable to handle an active toddler, especially if he couldn't fulfill simple administrative tasks. In my experience, this is the cleanest way of determining who is where and what each parent is capable of. I told the GAL everything I knew, and I was very honest about my journey into and out of life with an alcoholic, and how his alcoholism had wrecked our lives, and how I wanted to keep the effects of his disease as far away from me and my kids as possible. The GAL looked at the facts and made a recommendation. We went with his recommendation, and my ex's lawyer certainly couldn't fight it.
To me, if you need to prove to the court that your ex be crazy, hand him a microphone.
The best thing you can do in my experience is request a guardian ad litem to come in and survey the situation and make a recommendation to the court independently of you two and your lawyers. A guardian ad litem will interview you both, take a look at the evidence, and tell the court what they find. If, for example, the GAL thinks your ex needs to complete a treatment program or have a psychiatrist make a recommendation as to his mental health, he will have to fulfill that requirement, as will you if asked of you. My ex, for example, was asked to fulfill a short list of requirements in order to have unsupervised visitation with our daughter. He was unable to fill any of them in a six week period, which showed the court he was still using and was unable to handle an active toddler, especially if he couldn't fulfill simple administrative tasks. In my experience, this is the cleanest way of determining who is where and what each parent is capable of. I told the GAL everything I knew, and I was very honest about my journey into and out of life with an alcoholic, and how his alcoholism had wrecked our lives, and how I wanted to keep the effects of his disease as far away from me and my kids as possible. The GAL looked at the facts and made a recommendation. We went with his recommendation, and my ex's lawyer certainly couldn't fight it.
To me, if you need to prove to the court that your ex be crazy, hand him a microphone.
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In my state, a GAL was only a few hundred bucks, split between the two of us. It can vary depending on how many hours the GAL has to spend on the case, but it was worth every penny, if you ask me.
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Sorry to say, you need a new attorney. One that gets addiction.
I can say that you need to be an advocate for yourself also. Stay very calm. I would explain the facts, and that you simply want to put protections in place for the future. That if he is not drinking that should be no problem at all.
That is the way I went about it, and I have some anti drinking languages and protections put into my divorce decree.
Good luck to you!
Hugs. XXX
I can say that you need to be an advocate for yourself also. Stay very calm. I would explain the facts, and that you simply want to put protections in place for the future. That if he is not drinking that should be no problem at all.
That is the way I went about it, and I have some anti drinking languages and protections put into my divorce decree.
Good luck to you!
Hugs. XXX
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She says I need proof of the excessive drinking, but what can I use when he's never been caught drinking and driving, no other legal run ins and is very good at hiding it. I have pictures of empty bottles hidden all over, but that doesn't prove anything besides his hiding them - it doesn't prove it was excessive. Any ideas?
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Do you have friends or family who can corroborate any of your testimony? Your own testimony, incidentally, MAY be sufficient. IF the judge finds your testimony sufficiently credible. That means testifying in a calm and factual way about this, and this, and that, then then this occurred as a result of that.
The more "urgent" you make it sound, sometimes the less credible your testimony may appear. Not that you have to be completely devoid of emotion, but some parties to divorce ARE known to exaggerate for the sake of gaining an advantage in their case. That's what you want to avoid at all costs. Your own lawyer's seemingly dispassionate demeanor can, ironically, come off better for you than a very emotional/passionate presentation. Judges don't appreciate passion, they appreciate credible evidence and testimony.
Remember, as the client, you have the final say on what is and is not acceptable to you. YOU are the one who has to agree to a settlement, not her. So even if she recommends it, as the client you simply say, "No" and that you would prefer an opportunity to make your case to the judge. She then has to go along with that, whether she thinks it's a good idea or not.
The more "urgent" you make it sound, sometimes the less credible your testimony may appear. Not that you have to be completely devoid of emotion, but some parties to divorce ARE known to exaggerate for the sake of gaining an advantage in their case. That's what you want to avoid at all costs. Your own lawyer's seemingly dispassionate demeanor can, ironically, come off better for you than a very emotional/passionate presentation. Judges don't appreciate passion, they appreciate credible evidence and testimony.
Remember, as the client, you have the final say on what is and is not acceptable to you. YOU are the one who has to agree to a settlement, not her. So even if she recommends it, as the client you simply say, "No" and that you would prefer an opportunity to make your case to the judge. She then has to go along with that, whether she thinks it's a good idea or not.
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Lucy- I am sorry you are having troubles with this but it doesn't really sound like you have anything. Even the photos could have been staged by you. Without facts all you have is what the legal system has already laid out as fair and equitable.
What is it you are looking for? Restricted access, no access? How is your son feeling about all this? What does he want? Is he in therapy, having problems in school? Do you have a journal that dates and times alcoholic episodes and abuse? Has your husband been fired from a job or been in rehab? These are the things you need to help your case
What is it you are looking for? Restricted access, no access? How is your son feeling about all this? What does he want? Is he in therapy, having problems in school? Do you have a journal that dates and times alcoholic episodes and abuse? Has your husband been fired from a job or been in rehab? These are the things you need to help your case
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I kept a journal but aside from the pics of hidden booze, that's it. He just said he stopped drinking - no treatment program, no AA, blamed the drinking on the miserable marriage - in other words no real recovery. I am feeling it will be a losing battle - I will have to see how things go.
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Originally Posted by lucybb
And she makes it seem like joint custody and 50/50 access is a foregone conclusion, particularly since he is now not drinking.
I'd been living separated from AXH for a while by the time I filed for divorce, but like others here, part of the evidence in my case was a log of the times he showed up drunk, or was drunk by the time I picked up DS from his care, the times he failed to pick up DS (usually without calling before-hand), and a journal outlining his behavior, and how it all affected DS.
Would your bank statements help with your case? I had all of my bank statements from when AXH was still on my account, which gave me an estimate on what he was spending. Each time he used the debit card at a liquor store, it showed up with either the store's address, or in some cases their name and ID, so it was a handy record showing his daily purchases. After he started going to the ATM's to pull cash first, it still showed daily withdrawals, but was it no longer tied to alcohol purchases. (I don't know how useful that would've been, though, if AXH had denied he'd spent that much money.)
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Originally Posted by theuncertainty
Would your bank statements help with your case? I had all of my bank statements from when AXH was still on my account, which gave me an estimate on what he was spending. Each time he used the debit card at a liquor store, it showed up with either the store's address, or in some cases their name and ID, so it was a handy record showing his daily purchases. After he started going to the ATM's to pull cash first, it still showed daily withdrawals, but was it no longer tied to alcohol purchases. (I don't know how useful that would've been, though, if AXH had denied he'd spent that much money.)
It sounds like if I want to fight about custody and access, then it will indeed be a fight - meaning court. Or I could see what concessions I can get in collaborative law and make this whole thing be over faster and see how it goes. Maybe he will keep it together for a while, even if only for a few years, then my little guy will be a teenager and if he starts to get bad again, he can choose not to see his dad. I don't know, I don't know, I feel torn. And, as always, it is easy to believe that things are well now (he is being super dad right now) and hope that will continue (and forget about everything he has done and why I want a divorce in the first place). The patterns of my thoughts and behaviour are still in the same place - hope and despair, alternating regularly.
Meanwhile, DS is just loving the new and improved dad, and wanting to spend lots of time with him. I know this is common, but it's still painful for me.
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