Lakedays

Brief: Married 25 years, 3 adult children (30, 24, 21). This has been going on for 20 years. 12 years ago was when I started in recovery, slipped deeply over time, feel into deep depression, separated for 7 months 7 years ago and have basically muddled thru with the ups and downs and a lot of uncertainty and limbo in my life.

My husband went off the rails in September being arrested for his 6th DUI with an alcohol content of above .258. While I have said legal purposes, I believe he should minimize all he can. He's had a clean record in terms of DUI for the past 12 years. He was ostensibly sober for 10 of those. The last two have definitely been concerning to me, but all I have really said is it's a slipper slope until the end of the summer, when I sat him down to say I could see he was headed towards disaster. Less than a week later he was arrested 1000 miles away... technically on his way home from a business trip.

He is currently enrolled in a rehab program that has a holistic approach. He feels it is something different and since he has done several 12-step programs with very little one-to-one therapy, he is trying it. Of course, I have no idea if he is truly going for recovery, and really digging deep into the truth of his struggles which only he knows cause he sure never hints at the why of it all. And when I have mentioned wanting to participate in the family options available, he has vacillated between telling me this isn't about that (i.e., he's doing it for the courts) to a non-committal but invitation to come.

So, of course I am going. I leave on Monday. Everything in my fiber wants it to be productive, but I need some answers as to what he expects of me or what he wants in life. We are empty nesters who just sold our home of over 21 years. The expectation was to downsize, move closer to the cities. That has been the plan since I moved back into the house 7 years ago. And never did he tell me it wasn't. He convinced me to rent short term and look in the fall. We went to the lake in the summer and here I remain. It is SO not a winter location as it's gray and depressing, which isn't helping me either.

I did not go back to rescue him. We had no house there now, and had given up the rental at the start of summer. He was basically flying back and forth from 1000 miles away leaving his car there. Oh the story is long and of course I think it's just that little bit different from others when it really isn't at all.

But I am asking for your collective wisdom and help as I prepare for 9 days of seeing my husband. We spent the weekend of Thanksgiving in NYC with our younger children, going to museums, comedy clubs and broadway shows. Never did my husband's arrest or court dates or even his upcoming travel to this rehab on the other side of the country was discussed. Giant flippin elephant in every room leaving me stressed and overly sensitive. We are not permitted to talk about it -- not with him and certainly not to one another. That's an invasion of his privacy (vs what I think is a perpetual obligation to protect his secrets).

I am just so angry right now.... and mostly because he hasn't explained any of it. Where did this come from? What is going on? And if you don't care to share any of that, can't we please just divorce? It's not like we have a house to split anymore. But I love him, and when he is sober or in active recovery, I so enjoy him. But this thing about me not being allowed to feel because his are the only ones that count?

I understand addiction. I really do. But am I worth nothing in this equation? Does everything have to only be about supporting him in his recovery? When is he every going to truly be there for me? When has he ever had to? Once. Exactly once. And was when I moved out for 7 months. Of all the times I bailed him out, or cried with him. His response to my depression was he didn't want to be married to me anymore.

Honestly, the kids are grown. All the reasons that I thought were good enough to stay - their welfare - backfired. They mostly resent me. Still see their father as the "fun guy" and see me as the bitch I evolved into. It breaks my heart. Worse, my AH often says it's my fault they feel that way. He rejects the premise that his choices over the years have done damage to all of us. He thinks that's me deflecting. I say it's cause and effect!

Anyway...

ACK... but somehow I need the strength to make the most of this upcoming trip. He's tin rehab. He seems to be engaged. It's very different and I know many people here will only support the 12 steps and a higher power. But I believe what works for some might not work for others and I am a huge fan of whatever the hell works!! This is more about underlying issues.. especially as it pertains to chronic relapse when you know full well life is better if you don't drink. But he picked the program, I had nothing to do with any of it. The only thing I did this time was sign the papers necessary for him to hire an attorney.


I have deep faith in a lot of things, and I believe that by staying here - even after he sublet another apt at home - was to set the boundaries and I wasn't going to rescue him. I was not his personal driver and I definitely wasn't going to be his punching bag at the two week sobriety mark - which is always always the worst!

Talk about a ramble!!! But the story is 20 years old... it's evolved over time. But at the end of the day, I need help getting through what's next.

This was a good place to start: I had a link here, but because I don't enough posts, it wouldn't allow. Regardless - this is most of it: /forums/friends-family-alcoholics/180144-i-never-changed-anybody-my-words

So if we can talk more about that? That'd be awesome.

CodeJob

Lake days,

You've raised your children. You sacrificed a great deal for them. It sounds like financially you and your H were able to give them a solid schooling and opportunities. I'm sorry they view you as a B. At their age,they should see the marital minefield with a bit more finesse. Perhaps they are just frightened of their future. We do have a habit of repeating what we know, right?

They do sound launched though and self supporting? They are healthy and not addicts or married to addicts?

You've downsized. You are ready for your act now aren't you? But you are afraid to go solo? Why not? Why just not strike out and start your life now? Blow off rehab for him. Go somewhere warm and get your own therapist. Rent a place month to month. Walk a beach every day. Journal it all out and work just on you and what you want.

Really, who the heck cares WHY your H continually, for a lifetime, has repeated the SAME problems over and over again? Doesn't it get to the point that WHY doesn't matter? Doesn't it get to the point that YOU get to come first?

I think it does Lakeday. Especially if you have the funds to do it. And it sounds like you do.

I'm married 20 Y. I've known my H for 35 years. He has never divulged the WHY. My only guess is abuse. But it isn't for me to pry out of him. And really, what good would it do for him to tell me? The WHY is for him to figure out and CHANGE his reaction.

I call you done with his recovery. Go work on your own. Give yourself a pass and go off and discover yourself. Stop doing what you feel you should be doing and do what YOU want to do. Let him go. Find yourself.

Follow the star.

Lakedays

I wanted to clarify that when I call myself his punching bag - it is verbal and snappish, not actual punching. I know that is very much other's stories, but it is not mine. He has never actually hit me, but at least he'd see the marks he leaves if he did.

I will also clarify that we have not downsized. I am staying at our place at the Lake, but the idea of renting something warmer for a few months is definitely very appealing, especially because in all likelihood he's going to have a few months in jail following this. But for now... his rehab is somewhere warm and sunny. There has never been an opportunity in all his programs where he has invited or even allowed me to participate - which is why I don't know if he is every truly honest in these things. He's incredibly charming and everyone loves him. No one - and i mean no one - would guess someone like him has the legal ramifications he does. It's all very neatly compartmentalized.

The point is, I am not finanically independent by any stretch of the imagination - so yes, I am scared. He gives me a monthly check and it surely doesn't cover something like rent. I would like to see this "different" thru. As I said, we've had 7 pretty good years and it was only in this last one that I felt the slippery slope was changing who he was.

And I guess the why doesn't matter.... but I want to participate to the best of my ability because for 1) I've never been able to do it before and 2) when I finally walk away, I want to do so with assurance that I tried. I really tried.

I spent 6 years in therapy for myself... about me... until my therapist died (talk about putting life into perspective). I don't feel I've been given an opportunity to even say the things once (in a once and for all kind of way) let alone repeat it.

CodeJob

If he's off to jail, then you need total financial access. I'd persuade him to give you access and POA in preparing for this. This guy - and you - have some funds. You just sold a house! Where did he stash the $? You just went to NYC and dropped a small bomb of cash there. ,I bet insurance hasn't fully covered all of his rehabs AND he must have a pricey lawyer on retainer too! He gives you a mo check? Lakeday, it is NOT 1950. Especially since you are married to a addict! Get a financial check up. Go count chickens. What kind of car do you have? Is it in your name?

You need cash, your own credit card, your own bank accounts, car title in your name too.

Go to rehab family days if you need to. I get it. I did it and didn't regret it.

But you need to get crafty and start working YOUR angle. Have you seen a lawyer for a consult?

Katchie

Lakedays....20yrs is really trying, isn't it? As I point that finger I point several at myself too. I've been married 22 yrs. and a good 15, at least, has been spent in denial, covering for, making excuses to my children for, etc etc..for the alcoholic I call my husband. I guarantee, like the rest of us here, you have done your fair share and then some; you've gone beyond the call of duty...I know I have. I also have at least one son who would probably accuse me of being a b*tch, too. Yet we, you and I and the rest of us find our selves still stuck in this emotional addiction to our AH's. I hope you have a good friend, Alanon group, or other circle of friends that you can freely speak your truth to and get it all off of your chest. You will start to feel so much better when you start releasing those emotions.
Codejob had some really wonderful advice above. What do you want for yourself the rest of your life? These are just thoughts from someone struggling just like you. Hugs...I'm praying you start to figure it all out for yourself soon!

LexieCat

I second CodeJob's suggestion that you see a lawyer for a consult. It doesn't commit you to anything, but it sounds like you have a long-term marriage that would entitle you to a substantial portion of property and ongoing financial support.

You can't MAKE him share with you about his thoughts on recovery. I happen to be in AA but I believe, like you do, that for some people another type of program might be more effective. Still, he's telling you that he's just going through the motions for the sake of his legal situation. That doesn't sound too promising.

My own reaction, when I read your posts, is that you truly are someone who has never had a chance to build a life of her own. You sound like you've been an appendage to him, and like that is how you view yourself. It makes me sad for you. Assuming he DOES get sober and stay that way, will that change?

As far as feeling like you "really tried" before filing for divorce, haven't you BEEN doing that? Maybe you could talk to a lawyer about some kind of legal separation that would give you a chance to see what it's like to live on your own, to have a chance to find out who YOU really are? It does take a while. After my last breakup I realized that I no longer remembered who *I* was--what was important to ME, what *I* enjoyed. And I liked re-discovering it so much that I don't have the slightest interest in getting into another relationship. I don't put it beyond the realm of all possibility, but I can definitely say that it would take one hell of a wonderful man to give up my freedom and the comfortable, great life that I have now.

Lakedays

Cars are all in my name - for obvious reasons. I have my own credit cards, my own bank accounts, and my own investments in my name only. The money from the house is in an account that can only be used if both of us sign off on a withdrawal.

This was a very big issue 15 years ago. I did not micromanage his last recovery and he seemed to be doing fairly well until September (although yes, I saw the slippery slope). He relapsed. Yes, big time. But it's absolutely nothing like it was 15 years ago.

You know what is kinda funny? 15 years ago I told him if he ever drank Vodka (his binge of choice) again, I was gone. No discussion. When he was arrested this time, I had to have a friend recover the car since it is in my name and I was across the country. He said he was surprised they didn't search the car and so, I suspected he found the bottle in it. Sure enough there was. SO I asked what it was, fully expecting to hear Vodka. Nope. Makers Mark. God, does he love a loop hole!

So.. it's been 15 years since he's been to rehab. And for whatever reason he WENT to rehab, doesn't it at all matter what he is getting out of it now? He's proven he can live a sober life and that it is a happier one. I just need to know if he's come to that conclusion again or if he's just biding his time. I can't know which it is until I hear what he has to say.

He had no idea what to expect before he went, and although he said he was going for the courts, that he invited me at all says it's at least somewhat different. And I know he really likes his therapist. And some of the other group leaders etc. So I do sense this has been a very very different experience for him. And for those new to recovery... things have evolved a lot in the past 20 years. There used to be absolutely no room for family meetings or working on issues within a marriage before. They went to AA and you went to Al-Anon. Marriage counseling was something outside of that realm.

So it seems the only advice Im getting is an exit plan. I assure you I have an attorney and I even have an accountant. Any jail time will most likely be work release and he will have a driver. But we also still have a kid in private college as well... in her junior year. Let's just say, there are assets, but we aren't exactly riff with cash flow.

Still.. I will thank you for your time, but I was looking for more insight and thought about my reactions... tips to keep in mind to best facilitate positive interaction, protections for myself, assuring my thoughts arent twisted - even if the conclusion ends up being I am done.

LexieCat

Sorry if I misunderstood your situation. I'm glad you have experts to advise you.

It's kind of hard to know what to suggest in terms of "facilitating positive interaction," when at this point you don't even know if he's really serious. In my own experience, and that of most people I know, the more you let him handle his own recovery and the more you focus on your own, the better off you both will be. It took me a good year of sobriety before I felt like I had a handle on myself--I can't imagine having to worry about "positive interactions" with a partner. If I HAD a partner at that point, I would have felt sorry for him. I wouldn't have been all that pleasant to live with.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that the most you might be able to get out of this visit is a sense of whether he's serious about getting sober and staying that way. I wouldn't count on getting a good sense of whether the marriage can be saved, though, beyond that.

dandylion

Lakedays.....I DO have some good tips for you!! LOL!!
There is a thread o n this page, right now--it is titled: " 10 ways to tell if your addict or alcoholic is full of crap" (meaning are they blowing smoke about recovery or not).

Please, please, please read it.

These are nuggets of wisdom that h ave been written in the experience of multitudes of others...with their hopes and dreams and tears and fears.

It was of enormous value to me and gave me a sort of yardstick with which to ballpark the situation.

dandylion

dandylion

Lakedays...after reviewing your post, once again...I would like to say this to you: "Lakedays, you have the right to your own feelings and needs. You have the right to express them and to have them heard. You do NOT need his permission or his approval for this. His reaction...whatever that might be, is his responsibility to deal with.
We all (including you) want to be"seen" and "heard". We need to know that our feelings and thoughts are important---in short--that WE MATTER.

I get the sense (correct me, if I am wrong) that there has been a lone feeling of inequity in your relationship--even aside from the stuff that comes with the alcoholism.

I see that you know about alcoholism and alanon as well....so you know that you will find support for YOU and your feelings in alanon. Any other support group for women or any good personal professional would be supportive to what you need and want.

I agree with you that this is not just about him. YOU MATTER!

very sincerely,
dandylion

CodeJob

Well john Gottman is starting to roll out specialized marital counseling with addiction. If i were going to try marriage counseling soon after rehab, I would check them out. My H was not really capable of opening up and working on the marriage until about 15 mo post rehab.

Couples & Addiction Recovery Training | The Gottman InstituteThe Gottman Institute

I'm so thankful you have resources in line for yourself. Be well Lakeday!

aboutdone

I don't think anyone can really give you the insight you are looking for. Sadly, as much as the stories are all the same, they do tend to be unique. I feel that you want to make sure of things, so by all means go, but I would have a back up plan in place, so if you truly feel uncomfortable, you can graciously leave without a lengthy explanation. Nobody can tell you what is right for you. However we are here for you. I find a lot of advice does tend to focus on exit plans, as any of us who have lived through such crazy lifestyles, wouldn't wish it upon our worst enemy. I myself, falter on having the strength to leave, even though I know the BS will never end. I know how we fet caught up in the good times with our sober RAH, and then the incredible let down when they decide to relapse. In all honesty, it is just not fair. It never is. Only you know when enough is enough, and just recently I have learned to accept that my wifely duties and committments can become null and void when the relapse starts. I am no way endorsing going outside if the marriage, but I absolutely believe that when they make the decision to relaose, I make the decision to do my own sort of indulging in anything I want. Travel, hobbies, whatever it may be. If they aren't an active partner in the marriage, then I too, should be selfish because afterall one person alone can not hold it all together.

CodeJob

Lakeday, I reread your posts in this thread. I felt perhaps I misread your thread last night. You seemed disappointed in the replies.

But you write with a lot of cues that YOU want to leave. You want your stamp that you've done your part and are free to go. Maybe you don't see your cues. Perhaps you are wavering. Perhaps you are scared. Maybe a dash of denial? We all have suffered with this terrible indecision and fear of change. What if we leave and the A partner has that amazing conversion? He actually transforms himself into the man we knew he could be - and I don't benefit from it??!

You mention rehab has changed over 20 years since his last stint. Not enough IMO and perhaps only to better fit a medical model to get insurance money. There may not have been marriage counseling with the rehab 20Y ago, but did you two make some in roads and rewrite your marriage during this long sober period?

There is only 1 wife on this board that I can surmise has the financial level of security that you do. The rest hide it really well if they have it. You have an incredible capability to leave and not worry about basic things like personal credit, transportation, food, housing, etc. Many of the A partners here can't afford a driver - they get a bike or the family suffers even more getting their A where they need to go. So I apologize if you felt I pushed an exit plan on you in my earlier posts, but this is what I saw you wanted affirmation for.

Have you run across Brene Brown? If you have not read about her work on vulnerability and shame and seen some of her speaking clips I think you might like what she offers. You can select any of her books that most interest you. I read her Daring Greatly book en route to my H's family days and I carried it around like a ********. She is not exactly recovery, but her research is unique and powerful in its ability to transcend academia to actual living.

I pray the family days go well and you are able to discern your H's intent. But you state above you stayed just because he choose Makers Mark over Vodka. That is so irrational really. Who cares what he drank?! He did. And you well described his mind and behaviors had failed him before he actually drank. But you would be exiting the marriage if your friend found Absolut or Grey Goose? I hope you don't go another decade on that kind of technicality!

Peace and wisdom to you. I hope you stick here. You are an intriguing character.

LexieCat

Yes, I know that was a lot of what I was picking up on. It kind of sounded like you felt TRAPPED and wanting to leave, but not quite sure if you could, or if it was the right thing to do.

And I don't think I'm just projecting here, because I left my second husband after his relapse (following an episode where he almost died due to liver complications from drinking) a matter of months after we were married.

My first husband got sober a year before we got married (and is still sober today--almost 35 years later). For the most part I was DONE accommodating his disease, and the "support" I provided mostly consisted of honoring his wishes about having alcohol in the house or being places where it was served, not complaining about time spent at meetings or with his sponsor, or time spent with sober guys he hung out with between/after meetings, and being as patient as I could when little bits of the "ism" leaked out from time to time. LOL, I don't remember this, but he tells me during one difficult day, I yelled at him to call his sponsor and to tell him not to bring him back till he's FIXED. He got very strong in his sobriety, but it was because HE had the desire and HE did the work. Though he often says how much he appreciated my support during that time, I mostly just stayed out of his way where his recovery was concerned. So it wasn't anything I DID. I couldn't MAKE him have the desire to get sober, and I couldn't MAKE him listen to the advice given to him by other guys with long-term sobriety.

boomtruck

I am having trouble posting today---hopefully this works.
Loving the alcoholic I don't think is the question. It seems we all do. With mine we had some great years and he's left me with two beautiful children. I will always be grateful for that.
However, through the rollercoaster of drinking/sobriety/drinking/sobriety and watching the progression of a chronic alcoholic was not how I wanted to finish my life. I found when he didn't drink I was continually stressed about when the other shoe would fall. Maybe today, tomorrow, next year, 5 years, 10 years. I had to ask myself if I was willing to live with the question of when the next drink would be. I wasn't.
I am still working on divorce--finally have a trial date in March--but went through this cycle numerous times in the 29 years we've been married. Lived with alcoholic mother for the first part of my life. So, now almost 50 I am working on my happiness.
I think we all have to answer our own questions. We have extremely high tolerance levels for disfunction/hurt/pain. Wouldn't it be great if our lives had more function/love/caring?

maia1234

Lakedays, I am sorry for your issues with your A. Most women here have walked in your shoes. We accepted and tolerated unacceptable behavior. We all understand that he relapsed and hopefully will work a program and get sober. We all want that for our A.

We are just saying that at some point we can no longer take it and need to get off the train. It took me 34 to finally divorce my A. I could no longer take it. You must be questioning what is going on in your life because you are here. You reached out for ideas and suggestions and you don't really like what we are saying. You have to understand that we all TOLERATE a lot from our A's and at some point you have to say enough is enough. We read your thread and thought that, that was were you were at. We don't recommend you to do anything now, all we do is tell you what worked or didn't work for "us".

I just want you to know, that they will continue to do the same "thing" if you continue to do the same "thing". So if you are expecting a different result, you need to change. If you are content with this, then don't change a thing. But if you want to change you need to be open minded and listen to these very knowledgeable people, who have lived it, read about it and worked it, to make their life better.

So open your ears, eyes and heart to what people are saying. Change starts with you and only you. You need to work on your side of the street and stay away from his. You can not help as he needs to do this on his own. Good luck and I hope you can learn something with in these threads, as I grow everyday!!

Lakedays

Trying to reply without quoting the entire post had me lose the Brene reference, but I enjoy her very much! I've read her book and my sister actually took some online course of hers about gratitude (maybe?).

I absolutely could relate to the feeling of the other shoe falling, and is exactly what I said to my husband this August. But I did speak with him this morning, and I was pretty amazed by some of his openness regarding the "message" of the program, and he really does so appreciate the level of respect he feels. He also said that he can see those who are just don't truly get it and aren't close to being ready. For the youngers, he says all he can do is tell them his story and how it was very similar but just a different substance. He talks about how some of the people are just so great and because there is such an emphasis on one-on-one treatment, it encourages lots of one-on-one conversations with people. For a guy like my husband who is not a big "joiner" in a general way, compliments the group things a great deal because you know the people so much better individually. Very different than his time at Hazelden. That definitely had its merit, and kept him mostly very sober (for 10) and hasn't had any legal issues in over 12 years now. Point is, he sounds good today and it made me happy to hear it.

However, this is where I can get myself in trouble. I have to be wary of the loophole. I don't have to point them out, mind you, but I will hear them and if I do... over the next few months I will put a more permanent exit strategy in motion. However, he also told me he has a book for me to read... which is definitely a first. Cautiously optimistic as they say.

And you all aren't wrong to think I am looking to give myself permission to leave. But I have already given myself that.. and as the title says, it could be the last round. And some posts I read, I admit, I wish I had left when the kids were far younger and I had a lot more of life ahead. They definitely wouldn't have truly understood (again, my husband did most of his worst far away from home), but they surely figured it out, and even if you don't see an an alcoholic drunk, their behavior in general definitely affects everyone around them.

But I am definitely putting more of my needs at the head of the table now with the kids grown in a general way, and I am far less tolerable of being treated poorly, which is why I am fine accepting some of the kids' silent treatment. There is literally nothing I "have" to do for anyone else and that is indeed liberating.

I think my biggest challenge, to be honest, is to spend a lot more time listening than talking and the whole -- say it once and let it go - is a very very tough one for me. It's essentially begging for validation I think... and at the end of the day, the only person who can validate you, is yourself. That's good enough. At least for today!!

Flight early tomorrow morning... I am no where near packed and when I got the suitcase out, the wheel just totally fell off and I see no way to reconnect it.

redatlanta

I'd say whether it was Maker's Mark or Vodka is inconsequential. You stated if he picked up again you were gone. And here you are back on the Merry go Round.

Where you fit in this equation I am not sure. Your post is a little hard to follow maybe you were on a phone while typing. It sounds like you have sacrificed a lot to stay married to this man. I get it, I really do. I am sure he has been a lot of things good, but what I see is that he has had 6 DUI. And that the one time you needed him when you were depressed his response was that he didn't want to be married to you anymore. WOW.

Your post infuriates me. Not at you but at him. You are required to "not say a word" on a trip about HIS f**k up yet your children resent you and think you are a B and Dad's just a funtime guy? Dad with 6 DUI's. Well what about mom? What about mom who was promised to be moving in the Fall but is living in a dreary area probably remote because Dad is in rehab AGAIN. How many times I wonder have you had to eat it, and suffer, and wait, and make excuses because of him?

Tell ya what I think. You need to make some changes if you are going to stay in this marriage. No more secrets is #1. The A wouldn't be telling me what I AM ALLOWED to discuss and with whom.

I am talking about accountability Lakedays. Your husband needs to be accountable. Second is transparency. Its lacking in your marriage. Your husband would have to very transparent willing to answer whatever I wanted to know that would need to be a lifetime change.

This man should be begging you. I don't see it.

My only advice is I would be wary. Expect the worst and hope for the best. Expect nothing. Yes listen. Say nothing. You've probably said it all 1000x .Book a ticket to go someplace sunny and warm and think it over after you leave.

soullong

Why is his going to rehab a secret? That you can't talk about? If he was going in for brain surgery, or heart surgery it wouldn't be a secret. If it's a disease, if it often stems from self medicating, and if alcoholics are only as "sick as their secrets"...? With me, I've been trying to shine the light on my own secrets,too. And to feel and honor my feelings. Not to fight them or squash them or try to intellectualize them away...when I try and bottle them up I end up feeling extra depressed and finding the ice cream and chocolate too inviting!

CodeJob

Oh Lord Lakeday, we should make a game out of what book he has for you!

The Lsnguage of Letting Go is my guess!