well, I thought we broke up??
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Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 16,246
carmen...Yes, I do think that you are going through the grief process. And, yes, as SparkleKitty mentioned....time and space(distance) help you through this process.
Dee mentioned to read "Co-dependent No More". That is a classic that I think will resonate very m uch with you....especially, right now.
While you are at it---since you are i nsisting on understanding the alcoholic point of view---Do THIS: Google "bma-wellness.com". Then click o n the section called: psychiatry and wellness. Then, read the article, written by Floyd P. Garrett, M.D., called: "Addiction, Lies, and Relationships". He has several others that are excellent, also.
These writings helped me enormously. So much so--that I frequently recommend them to others.
You are probably so fiercely hanging onto HOPE that some bolt of lightning will hit him and he will just see the world like you do. His brain has a very different filter than yours has. Floyd P. Garrett can explain it much better than I can.
Please keep learning...about alcoholism, about yourself (especially YOURSELF).
Knowledge is power. Please add it to your time and space.
dandylion
Dee mentioned to read "Co-dependent No More". That is a classic that I think will resonate very m uch with you....especially, right now.
While you are at it---since you are i nsisting on understanding the alcoholic point of view---Do THIS: Google "bma-wellness.com". Then click o n the section called: psychiatry and wellness. Then, read the article, written by Floyd P. Garrett, M.D., called: "Addiction, Lies, and Relationships". He has several others that are excellent, also.
These writings helped me enormously. So much so--that I frequently recommend them to others.
You are probably so fiercely hanging onto HOPE that some bolt of lightning will hit him and he will just see the world like you do. His brain has a very different filter than yours has. Floyd P. Garrett can explain it much better than I can.
Please keep learning...about alcoholism, about yourself (especially YOURSELF).
Knowledge is power. Please add it to your time and space.
dandylion
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Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 80
thank you dandylion, I'll check that out. I also looked up info on co-dependence. It sounds like it is referring to people who HAVE to have somebody. That's not me. I am content for long periods alone, but I have wanted to meet someone special and when I do, I hate to see it not work and learning about alcoholism was all new to me. Naturally, I want success and I genuinely care for those I come to know.
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Join Date: Jul 2010
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Yeah, I don't think everyone who winds up with an alcoholic (even those who have a bit of difficulty extricating themselves from a relationship) is necessarily a "co-dependent." I think I displayed and engaged in some co-dependent-type behaviors, but for some people I think it runs a lot deeper. It still doesn't hurt to identify those thoughts and feelings and behaviors to figure out why we sometimes are more willing to suffer, ourselves, than make someone else uncomfortable.
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Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 16,246
carmen....another thing to keep in m ind....is that the groundrules that we grew up with, about how to deal with others, jut get turned head over heels when dealing with addiction.
Much of what we need to do in this kind of situation seem to go against what we were taught. Goes against our instincts and our nature. This becomes a mindf*** for most of us...especially, at first!!!
This is hard stuff for us to absorb and understand.
Keep learning....
dandylion
Much of what we need to do in this kind of situation seem to go against what we were taught. Goes against our instincts and our nature. This becomes a mindf*** for most of us...especially, at first!!!
This is hard stuff for us to absorb and understand.
Keep learning....
dandylion
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Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 80
As soon as I responded, Yes, we can talk. He sent several more text .... saying he loves me, misses me, and now he wants to know that he's the only one, that I mean so much to him. I didn't really respond to these text...only that I would talk to him.. and that I did miss him (which is true). I feel confused and guilty when he says all these nice things.
We spoke last night, he was charming, sweet, easy to talk to, intelligent, articulate (although he was slurring very slightly...he's always nice and sweet if he's had some).
He understands my feelings about the drinking, still says he's going to do something about it (he's been saying this all along). I can tell that he's concluded that we can work through this. He sounds so nice, that I want to believe it, but I know the issues and the cycle. I just don't know what to do. I love him, but can't partner with him... I don't know how to handle that.
I guess I'll just have to stick to saying, I won't date an active alcoholic and as long as it's in his system, we can't date. I don't want him to think that just not drinking around me counts. It's still circulating within him. I hope we can be friends, with maybe, potentially (or maybe not) future possibilities.
Any more thoughts as to his reaction and how I should handle this? I care for him; don't want to hurt him, but I also have to be firm with what doesn't work for me. I just fear that I will weaken. He's very smart and charming.
We spoke last night, he was charming, sweet, easy to talk to, intelligent, articulate (although he was slurring very slightly...he's always nice and sweet if he's had some).
He understands my feelings about the drinking, still says he's going to do something about it (he's been saying this all along). I can tell that he's concluded that we can work through this. He sounds so nice, that I want to believe it, but I know the issues and the cycle. I just don't know what to do. I love him, but can't partner with him... I don't know how to handle that.
I guess I'll just have to stick to saying, I won't date an active alcoholic and as long as it's in his system, we can't date. I don't want him to think that just not drinking around me counts. It's still circulating within him. I hope we can be friends, with maybe, potentially (or maybe not) future possibilities.
Any more thoughts as to his reaction and how I should handle this? I care for him; don't want to hurt him, but I also have to be firm with what doesn't work for me. I just fear that I will weaken. He's very smart and charming.
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Originally Posted by carmen303 
...he's always nice and sweet if he's had some.
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too hard for me to tell... it's always running through his system. His verbal abuse is sort of mild (compared to what I hear from others), but still falls into the category. Often controlling and sometimes yells; I believe all due to the alcoholism.
His anger at others is a real concern; never know when he's going to have a flare up. It's like holding back a bull on the attack toward some other man/stranger that upsets him; always have to worry about this happening. pretty sure it's a symptom from the alcohol. he does go into silent internal rages, brooding, binge drinking when he's unhappy about something. He has all the financial probs that alcoholics have plus his physical symptoms concern me.
These things all put so much stress on me; not good for my health.
His anger at others is a real concern; never know when he's going to have a flare up. It's like holding back a bull on the attack toward some other man/stranger that upsets him; always have to worry about this happening. pretty sure it's a symptom from the alcohol. he does go into silent internal rages, brooding, binge drinking when he's unhappy about something. He has all the financial probs that alcoholics have plus his physical symptoms concern me.
These things all put so much stress on me; not good for my health.
Community Greeter
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 16,246
carmen.....breakups are always painful (if you have invested a part of yourself).
One has to be willing to go through short-term pain for the long-term gain. It sure sounds like this is one of those situations.
He is not the only fish in the sea.
dandylion
One has to be willing to go through short-term pain for the long-term gain. It sure sounds like this is one of those situations.
He is not the only fish in the sea.
dandylion
Sober since 10th April 2012
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Perth, Western Australia
Posts: 6,047
Hi Carmen, it seems you're not in a viable relationship. You still have feelings for him, which makes you vulnerable, but you're also not willing to date an active alcoholic. So do you plan to just talk to him from time to time? He's not sober, doesn't intend to be.
I guess my point is that unless you go NC you will be hooked back into dating an alcoholic. Is that your decision?
I guess my point is that unless you go NC you will be hooked back into dating an alcoholic. Is that your decision?
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Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,103
When we blame the “alcohol” for all of their bad character traits and all of their behaviors we set ourselves up to the thinking of a fixed solution which is getting them sober because THEN they will turn into the person we wish them to be or think they can be. You know the one who says those nice sweet and charming things we long to hear – how much they love us, miss us, all the things they have learned that earns them back into our lives without ever really having to give up who they are or give up the things they love “booze”.
I’ve found it much easier to open my eyes and accept reality then wait around for someone else to open theirs, which usually doesn’t happen.
You fell for someone who has had alcohol in his system long before you ever came along, continues to have it in his system today and appears that he’s not ready to stop because otherwise he wouldn’t be talking about doing something about it, he’d already be doing something about it.
Work on YOUR weakness not his. Work on your recovery beginning with abstinence from what you seem to be addicted to (him) you seek out help with counseling or al-anon………….become the recovery you so desperately want for him.
I’ve found it much easier to open my eyes and accept reality then wait around for someone else to open theirs, which usually doesn’t happen.
You fell for someone who has had alcohol in his system long before you ever came along, continues to have it in his system today and appears that he’s not ready to stop because otherwise he wouldn’t be talking about doing something about it, he’d already be doing something about it.
Work on YOUR weakness not his. Work on your recovery beginning with abstinence from what you seem to be addicted to (him) you seek out help with counseling or al-anon………….become the recovery you so desperately want for him.
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Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 3,443
If you broke up then you have to act as if you broke up - despite how he acts.
Breaking up is hard and hurtful. That is just the nature of it - and life really. You can't protect either one of you from that. In the long run it is a kindness to break up and be done once you know that the relationship does not, and can not, meet your needs.
Perhaps you can be friends in the future but for right now it is just making things more difficult isn't it? It is sending mixed messages and dragging things out. Even without addiction it is a rare break up that can move to friends that talk on the phone right away. You can't separate but carry on as if you are still together - especially when one person is not totally on board with the break up because you each have different goals/expectations of those conversations.
I did not break up when I should have - when I was at the point in the relationship you are at now. It did not do either one of us any favors and we both ended up in far more pain and with way more damage than if I'd have had the integrity and strength to honor my truths to begin with.
When we play along with someone in active addiction to 'spare their feelings' we are keeping both ourselves and them trapped in a dead end because neither of use are able to move forward. When we play along because we feel weak we become incredibly confused and codependent and that is a path straight to hell.
Originally Posted by carmen303
I just don't know what to do. I love him, but can't partner with him... I don't know how to handle that.
I guess I'll just have to stick to saying, I won't date an active alcoholic and as long as it's in his system, we can't date. I don't want him to think that just not drinking around me counts. It's still circulating within him. I hope we can be friends, with maybe, potentially (or maybe not) future possibilities.
Any more thoughts as to his reaction and how I should handle this? I care for him; don't want to hurt him, but I also have to be firm with what doesn't work for me. I just fear that I will weaken. He's very smart and charming.
I guess I'll just have to stick to saying, I won't date an active alcoholic and as long as it's in his system, we can't date. I don't want him to think that just not drinking around me counts. It's still circulating within him. I hope we can be friends, with maybe, potentially (or maybe not) future possibilities.
Any more thoughts as to his reaction and how I should handle this? I care for him; don't want to hurt him, but I also have to be firm with what doesn't work for me. I just fear that I will weaken. He's very smart and charming.
Perhaps you can be friends in the future but for right now it is just making things more difficult isn't it? It is sending mixed messages and dragging things out. Even without addiction it is a rare break up that can move to friends that talk on the phone right away. You can't separate but carry on as if you are still together - especially when one person is not totally on board with the break up because you each have different goals/expectations of those conversations.
I did not break up when I should have - when I was at the point in the relationship you are at now. It did not do either one of us any favors and we both ended up in far more pain and with way more damage than if I'd have had the integrity and strength to honor my truths to begin with.
When we play along with someone in active addiction to 'spare their feelings' we are keeping both ourselves and them trapped in a dead end because neither of use are able to move forward. When we play along because we feel weak we become incredibly confused and codependent and that is a path straight to hell.
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Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 524
Let me tell you something Carmen. When I married my A, very shortly after --his verbal abuse was "mild" and he also "yelled sometimes"
On our 2nd wedding anniversary in Jamaica, security had to knock on our hotel door. He had grabbed me by the back of my hair, threw me on the bed and attempted to put his hands around my neck. That's not your guy, right? He would never do that. Yea, mine either. He had too much to drink he said. My first daughter was was not even a year old then. That was our "bottom". Or so I thought - he started counseling and we started counseling.
It was only about a year and a half ago that he smacked me for the first time- HARD. Really hard. It almost knocked me to the ground. Across the face. It took him almost 7years to do that. I kind of figured it was coming, he really had covered everything else.
It took him about I don't know maybe 3 years to spit in my face.
He would only call me an "a**hole" or a "b*tch" when he was really angry in the beginning but after that lost it's effect he called me the most horrible things you could ever imagine. That took about 5 years to fully blossom.
Of course when he came to his senses, he knew he had a drinking problem and needed help. He was sweet and charming and very articulate and very intelligent.
So when you say he only this and only that - and doesn't really do this or do that. I have one reply to that.
Yet.
He doesn't do it YET.
So everytime you share that he doesn't do (pick something) make sure you add in the word "yet".
On our 2nd wedding anniversary in Jamaica, security had to knock on our hotel door. He had grabbed me by the back of my hair, threw me on the bed and attempted to put his hands around my neck. That's not your guy, right? He would never do that. Yea, mine either. He had too much to drink he said. My first daughter was was not even a year old then. That was our "bottom". Or so I thought - he started counseling and we started counseling.
It was only about a year and a half ago that he smacked me for the first time- HARD. Really hard. It almost knocked me to the ground. Across the face. It took him almost 7years to do that. I kind of figured it was coming, he really had covered everything else.
It took him about I don't know maybe 3 years to spit in my face.
He would only call me an "a**hole" or a "b*tch" when he was really angry in the beginning but after that lost it's effect he called me the most horrible things you could ever imagine. That took about 5 years to fully blossom.
Of course when he came to his senses, he knew he had a drinking problem and needed help. He was sweet and charming and very articulate and very intelligent.
So when you say he only this and only that - and doesn't really do this or do that. I have one reply to that.
Yet.
He doesn't do it YET.
So everytime you share that he doesn't do (pick something) make sure you add in the word "yet".
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^^^^^^
Yes. This. Thank you Meggem for making that important point. Alcoholism is progressive, abuse is progressive (and also a separate behavior, alcohol doesn't cause anyone to become abusive, just lowers their inhibitions).
This is the BEST your relationship will ever be. It's all downhill from here. Even if he quits drinking tomorrow that's no guarantee that the abusive behavior and financial irresponsibility will end. Alcohol is a convenient scapegoat, but at least some of this behavior is just his true self coming through.
Yes. This. Thank you Meggem for making that important point. Alcoholism is progressive, abuse is progressive (and also a separate behavior, alcohol doesn't cause anyone to become abusive, just lowers their inhibitions).
This is the BEST your relationship will ever be. It's all downhill from here. Even if he quits drinking tomorrow that's no guarantee that the abusive behavior and financial irresponsibility will end. Alcohol is a convenient scapegoat, but at least some of this behavior is just his true self coming through.
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I am an alcoholic who have been sober about a year and a half. I also had a relationship with someone years ago who resembles the person you are describing.
I remember very well that feeling of anxiousness waiting to see what might set him off, hoping that strangers were picking up on my telepathy to behave in a certain way. See, I had learned to contour my behavior for the most part, but I remember that sense of anxiety because I knew not everyone had learned their lines as well. After an outburst I would placate him by agreeing that someone else was at fault for setting him off, I was just glad I was being honored because he saw me as an ally.
I am sorry, but I don't believe that alcohol causes this personality trait. Swinging back and forth between anger and manipulative sweetness does not really fit in specifically with people I know who are either still drinking or sober. I think alcohol might enhance existing personality traits.
I sat with a lot of people during family week when I was inpatient in rehab. During this time I saw a lot of sharing about intimate issues within people's relationships. It was a safe place for people to air their grievances. Being verbally abused did not come up once.
I absolutely know abuse exists within relationships with alcoholics, but I don't believe it is an issue that is only aligned or a result of substance issues.
It sounds like you are in the honeymoon period right now. It is exactly these times that keep us hooked. But every time you go back to him you have signaled to him that you are willing to accept behavior that has happened. Whether consciously or not he is adding this information to what he knows about you. He understands that he has found someone who will stay enmeshed, while it feels good to be told you are wanted, he is capitalizing on the fact that you have already displayed wobbly boundaries. Please understand, this is not a comment on your desirability, rather a comment about the fact that an abuser and a victim fit together like a puzzle. You both came into the relationship primed with your own grooves. It is that "fit" that feels familiar, that keeps us believing we understand him, that we are alone in truly knowing how fine he is.
I remember as far back as 8th grade I was already conditioned because of trauma at home. There was a boy named Miles in my class, he was sulky, dark, brooding….even then, I felt a pull towards that. I felt that somehow he was way more layered and precious and interesting than the standard 8th grade boy.
Think about how much of our culture celebrates this type of character construct. Wuthering Heights main drama comes from Catherine's pull towards Heathcliff, the haunting, misunderstood soul. A lot of popular culture reiterates this theme...
He may seem unique and misunderstood. I used to feel that I was keen to notice the real man behind the faulty exterior. And how disappointing it was to see that after all I went through I should have understood that WYSIWYG isn't just an acronym for web pages.
I think it is great you are looking for input. Having to ask a grown man not to be mean is setting pretty low boundaries. You are worth more.
I remember very well that feeling of anxiousness waiting to see what might set him off, hoping that strangers were picking up on my telepathy to behave in a certain way. See, I had learned to contour my behavior for the most part, but I remember that sense of anxiety because I knew not everyone had learned their lines as well. After an outburst I would placate him by agreeing that someone else was at fault for setting him off, I was just glad I was being honored because he saw me as an ally.
I am sorry, but I don't believe that alcohol causes this personality trait. Swinging back and forth between anger and manipulative sweetness does not really fit in specifically with people I know who are either still drinking or sober. I think alcohol might enhance existing personality traits.
I sat with a lot of people during family week when I was inpatient in rehab. During this time I saw a lot of sharing about intimate issues within people's relationships. It was a safe place for people to air their grievances. Being verbally abused did not come up once.
I absolutely know abuse exists within relationships with alcoholics, but I don't believe it is an issue that is only aligned or a result of substance issues.
It sounds like you are in the honeymoon period right now. It is exactly these times that keep us hooked. But every time you go back to him you have signaled to him that you are willing to accept behavior that has happened. Whether consciously or not he is adding this information to what he knows about you. He understands that he has found someone who will stay enmeshed, while it feels good to be told you are wanted, he is capitalizing on the fact that you have already displayed wobbly boundaries. Please understand, this is not a comment on your desirability, rather a comment about the fact that an abuser and a victim fit together like a puzzle. You both came into the relationship primed with your own grooves. It is that "fit" that feels familiar, that keeps us believing we understand him, that we are alone in truly knowing how fine he is.
I remember as far back as 8th grade I was already conditioned because of trauma at home. There was a boy named Miles in my class, he was sulky, dark, brooding….even then, I felt a pull towards that. I felt that somehow he was way more layered and precious and interesting than the standard 8th grade boy.
Think about how much of our culture celebrates this type of character construct. Wuthering Heights main drama comes from Catherine's pull towards Heathcliff, the haunting, misunderstood soul. A lot of popular culture reiterates this theme...
He may seem unique and misunderstood. I used to feel that I was keen to notice the real man behind the faulty exterior. And how disappointing it was to see that after all I went through I should have understood that WYSIWYG isn't just an acronym for web pages.
I think it is great you are looking for input. Having to ask a grown man not to be mean is setting pretty low boundaries. You are worth more.
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Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Alaska
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Originally Posted by carmen303
These things all put so much stress on me; not good for my health.
Any promises to change or do better are just words until he's had some serious recovery time. And in some cases, the behavior is an underlying way of being, not a result of addiction. IMHO, anger and how it's displayed or acted upon are underlying personality, not the glass of beer, or the shot, or even too many drinks.
Alcohol doesn't make people behave in ways they absolutely would never do otherwise. It amplifies what is there and makes it easier to justify indulging in behavior.
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