Are healthy, "normal" people already "detached"?
Member
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Baltimore, MD
Posts: 232
Terrific question.
I believed detachment was a form of not being 'all in' in any given relationship(personal, professional, etc).
Then I became a spouse of an alcoholic.
While I was 'all in' during the beginning, I realized(thanks mostly to this site) that to survive the emotional roller coaster that my life had become, I would need to look out for me and the kids first, and not totally emmerse my life/heart/self into my wife's decision to keep feeding her addiction.
It also allowed me to seperate my 'highs' and 'lows' from being attached to her daily highs and lows, largely attributed to her addiction.
Detachment also became implicit to the fact that I cannot control her, her addictions, moods, etc, and cannot be expected to.
It's a survival mechanism, and yes, I think we all have it. I think we end up finding it when we arrive/descend to certain thresholds, and when our personal levels of tolerances are reached or broken.
Then we make it a decision on whats best for us, not the other person.
I believed detachment was a form of not being 'all in' in any given relationship(personal, professional, etc).
Then I became a spouse of an alcoholic.
While I was 'all in' during the beginning, I realized(thanks mostly to this site) that to survive the emotional roller coaster that my life had become, I would need to look out for me and the kids first, and not totally emmerse my life/heart/self into my wife's decision to keep feeding her addiction.
It also allowed me to seperate my 'highs' and 'lows' from being attached to her daily highs and lows, largely attributed to her addiction.
Detachment also became implicit to the fact that I cannot control her, her addictions, moods, etc, and cannot be expected to.
It's a survival mechanism, and yes, I think we all have it. I think we end up finding it when we arrive/descend to certain thresholds, and when our personal levels of tolerances are reached or broken.
Then we make it a decision on whats best for us, not the other person.
Member
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: atlanta, ga
Posts: 3,581
Guess that depends on your definition of crap……..
The percentage of marriages or longterm relationships that don't endure some very, very stressful times are few and far between.
All beings are fallible not just Alkies and Codies. Certainly a healthy person may handle something differently - however, I have seen healthy people handle things poorly. Not in a codependent manner, there are other "bad" ways to handle things.
The percentage of marriages or longterm relationships that don't endure some very, very stressful times are few and far between.
All beings are fallible not just Alkies and Codies. Certainly a healthy person may handle something differently - however, I have seen healthy people handle things poorly. Not in a codependent manner, there are other "bad" ways to handle things.
Member
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 1,118
My MIL's brother lived with her at one point. He had been sober for years, and he and my widowed MIL got along great--sharing the care of their mother, etc.
So one day she realized he was drinking again, and possibly drugging. I thought I would help her out by suggesting she go to Al-Anon.
Before I could get the words out, she had kicked him out, and changed the locks on her door and her phone number.
I never forgot that. I was so impressed.
So one day she realized he was drinking again, and possibly drugging. I thought I would help her out by suggesting she go to Al-Anon.
Before I could get the words out, she had kicked him out, and changed the locks on her door and her phone number.
I never forgot that. I was so impressed.
Behold the power of NO
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: WA
Posts: 7,764
We select our mates during the dating process. Healthy folks do not fall in love with someone's potential and at the first or maybe second red flag during the courting stage, they will dump them like a hot potato. Also healthy people tend to avoid people with "baggage". Us codies tend to gravitate to them ready to put our little fixer/caretaker hat on since of course we can make things better and live happily ever after once the person is fixed and upgraded to our specifications
>rolling eyes<
>rolling eyes<
Member
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Florida
Posts: 6,780
Originally Posted by honeypig 
lillamy, this is making me laugh, b/c I always, always have major tension and knots (seriously, this is not a figure of speech--hard lumps that won't release!) in my shoulders when I go for a massage! I think I was literally "carrying the world on my shoulders" and apparently still am, to some extent...
Well, progress, not perfection, right? Thanks for the info and the amusement!
Well, progress, not perfection, right? Thanks for the info and the amusement!
Member
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Florida
Posts: 6,780
So... I've been thinking about this all day, trying to come up with an example of a healthy relationship in my world so that I could ponder on the similarities/differences using an IRL example.
And... I can't think of a single, happy, healthy couple among any of our friends or families. That is SO sad. Between addictions, PTSD/anger issues, mental illness... I can't think of anyone married or in a committed relationship that isn't facing some kind of dysfunction.
And... I can't think of a single, happy, healthy couple among any of our friends or families. That is SO sad. Between addictions, PTSD/anger issues, mental illness... I can't think of anyone married or in a committed relationship that isn't facing some kind of dysfunction.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Silicon Valley, CA
Posts: 2,066
I'm only chiming in because before I knew my husband was guzzling vodka we were seeing a marriage counselor who specialized in EFT and basically how attachment in a marriage is healthy. She sold me on it but it doesn't apply to people who have major individual issues to overcome first. (Everyone has problems. Hubs and I individually have big ones.)
“The overall conclusion: a sense of secure connection between romantic partners is key in positive loving relationships and a huge source of strength for the individuals in those relationships. Among the more significant findings:
• When we feel generally secure, that is, we are comfortable with closeness and confident about depending on loved ones, we are better at seeking support — and better at giving it. In a study by psychologist Jeff Simpson of the University of Minnesota, each of eighty-three dating couples filled out questionnaires about their relationship and then sat in a room. The female partner had been warned she would soon be participating in an activity that made most people very anxious (the activity wasn’t spelled out). The women who described themselves as feeling secure in love relationships on the questionnaires were able to share their unhappiness about the upcoming task openly and ask for support from their partners. Women who generally denied their attachment needs and avoided closeness withdrew more at these moments. Men responded to their partners in two ways: when they described themselves as secure with relationships, they became even more supportive than usual, touching and smiling at their partners and offering comfort; if they described themselves as uncomfortable with attachment needs, they became markedly less sympathetic “when their partners expressed their needs, downplaying their partners’ distress, showing less warmth, and touching less.
• When we feel safely linked to our partners, we more easily roll with the hurts they inevitably inflict, and we are less likely to be aggressively hostile when we get mad at them. Mario Mikulincer of Bar-Ilan University in Israel conducted a series of studies asking participants questions about how connected they felt in relationships and how they dealt with anger when conflicts arose. Their heart rates were monitored as they responded to scenarios of couples in conflict. Those who felt close to and could depend on partners reported feeling less angry with and attributing less malicious intent to their partners. They described themselves as expressing anger in a more controlled way, and expressed more positive goals, such as solving the problems and reconnecting with their partners.
• Secure connection to a loved one is empowering. In a group of studies Mikulincer showed that when we feel safely connected to others we understand ourselves better and like ourselves more. When given a list of adjectives to describe themselves, the more secure folks picked out positive traits. And when asked about their “weak points, they readily said they fell short of their own ideals but still felt good about themselves.
Mikulincer also found, as Bowlby predicted, that securely bonded adults were more curious and more open to new information. They were comfortable with ambiguity, saying they liked questions that could be answered in many different ways. In one task, a person’s behavior was described to them and they were asked to evaluate this person’s negative and positive traits. Connected participants more easily absorbed new information about the person and revised their assessments. Openness to new experience and flexibility of belief seems to be easier when we feel safe and connected to others. Curiosity comes out of a sense of safety; rigidity out of being vigilant to threats.
• The more we can reach out to our partners, the more separate and independent we can be. Although this flies in the face of our culture’s creed of self-sufficiency, psychologist Brooke Feeney of Carnegie Mellon University in Pittsburgh found exactly that in observations of 280 couples. Those who felt that their needs were accepted by their partners were more confident about solving problems on their own and were “more likely to successfully achieve their own goals.”
“The overall conclusion: a sense of secure connection between romantic partners is key in positive loving relationships and a huge source of strength for the individuals in those relationships. Among the more significant findings:
• When we feel generally secure, that is, we are comfortable with closeness and confident about depending on loved ones, we are better at seeking support — and better at giving it. In a study by psychologist Jeff Simpson of the University of Minnesota, each of eighty-three dating couples filled out questionnaires about their relationship and then sat in a room. The female partner had been warned she would soon be participating in an activity that made most people very anxious (the activity wasn’t spelled out). The women who described themselves as feeling secure in love relationships on the questionnaires were able to share their unhappiness about the upcoming task openly and ask for support from their partners. Women who generally denied their attachment needs and avoided closeness withdrew more at these moments. Men responded to their partners in two ways: when they described themselves as secure with relationships, they became even more supportive than usual, touching and smiling at their partners and offering comfort; if they described themselves as uncomfortable with attachment needs, they became markedly less sympathetic “when their partners expressed their needs, downplaying their partners’ distress, showing less warmth, and touching less.
• When we feel safely linked to our partners, we more easily roll with the hurts they inevitably inflict, and we are less likely to be aggressively hostile when we get mad at them. Mario Mikulincer of Bar-Ilan University in Israel conducted a series of studies asking participants questions about how connected they felt in relationships and how they dealt with anger when conflicts arose. Their heart rates were monitored as they responded to scenarios of couples in conflict. Those who felt close to and could depend on partners reported feeling less angry with and attributing less malicious intent to their partners. They described themselves as expressing anger in a more controlled way, and expressed more positive goals, such as solving the problems and reconnecting with their partners.
• Secure connection to a loved one is empowering. In a group of studies Mikulincer showed that when we feel safely connected to others we understand ourselves better and like ourselves more. When given a list of adjectives to describe themselves, the more secure folks picked out positive traits. And when asked about their “weak points, they readily said they fell short of their own ideals but still felt good about themselves.
Mikulincer also found, as Bowlby predicted, that securely bonded adults were more curious and more open to new information. They were comfortable with ambiguity, saying they liked questions that could be answered in many different ways. In one task, a person’s behavior was described to them and they were asked to evaluate this person’s negative and positive traits. Connected participants more easily absorbed new information about the person and revised their assessments. Openness to new experience and flexibility of belief seems to be easier when we feel safe and connected to others. Curiosity comes out of a sense of safety; rigidity out of being vigilant to threats.
• The more we can reach out to our partners, the more separate and independent we can be. Although this flies in the face of our culture’s creed of self-sufficiency, psychologist Brooke Feeney of Carnegie Mellon University in Pittsburgh found exactly that in observations of 280 couples. Those who felt that their needs were accepted by their partners were more confident about solving problems on their own and were “more likely to successfully achieve their own goals.”
Member
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Silicon Valley, CA
Posts: 2,066
Permanently damaged? No way!! Wax on, wax off, Carlotta!
None of that applies to me now nor at any point in my past. But I'd like to have a mate that I know I can count on and that I feel secure with, but I can't have any of that with someone else until I have it with myself. Which is where I am now, trying to like myself a little more and feel more secure in my own abilities.
Just seems like we're all trying to detach because we did attachment wrong the first time. I don't think attachment is bad, I think codependency is bad. I think detach refers to not being codependent anymore. Codependency is always bad.
None of that applies to me now nor at any point in my past. But I'd like to have a mate that I know I can count on and that I feel secure with, but I can't have any of that with someone else until I have it with myself. Which is where I am now, trying to like myself a little more and feel more secure in my own abilities.
Just seems like we're all trying to detach because we did attachment wrong the first time. I don't think attachment is bad, I think codependency is bad. I think detach refers to not being codependent anymore. Codependency is always bad.
hopping for freedom
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 847
Just wanted to say that long ago (13 years to be precise) the love of my life (at the time) broke up with me saying I was codependent and there was no cure for our toxic relationship. We were enmeshed in each other (lots of drama!) and I was completely crushed. I went to alanon and read literature but still felt doomed. I was so traumatized after that that I went the other way and became fiercely self protective and cold in relationships. That felt better than codependency.
I've been in a relationship now for ten years with a man who is very stable, loving, relaxed and unreactive (qualities that helped balance mine out). Over time I learned to trust and mellowed out. It's not perfect but it's healthy and happy, no drama (had to learn that drama did not indicate love).
I love him but always prioritize my needs. Sorry Honey, I can't help you if I can't help me. It may sound selfish but now I live my life for me and everyone else is just along for the ride - if they are a benefit to my experience (no, i don't have kids so I can say that). Most nice people are of benefit. I have many great friendships that stand the test of time but if a relationship becomes toxic, I'm not going to let it drag me down, I've fired best friends before. Seems to me that no-one can or will make sure I'm ok so I'd better do that.
My conclusion is that I recovered so that means it's possible.
I've been in a relationship now for ten years with a man who is very stable, loving, relaxed and unreactive (qualities that helped balance mine out). Over time I learned to trust and mellowed out. It's not perfect but it's healthy and happy, no drama (had to learn that drama did not indicate love).
I love him but always prioritize my needs. Sorry Honey, I can't help you if I can't help me. It may sound selfish but now I live my life for me and everyone else is just along for the ride - if they are a benefit to my experience (no, i don't have kids so I can say that). Most nice people are of benefit. I have many great friendships that stand the test of time but if a relationship becomes toxic, I'm not going to let it drag me down, I've fired best friends before. Seems to me that no-one can or will make sure I'm ok so I'd better do that.
My conclusion is that I recovered so that means it's possible.
Member
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 39
I agree with Stung, whole heartedly!! I was young and naive when I got in this relationship and have since grown up a lot. Our original "attachment" was all wrong on both of our parts, but I didn't notice it.
I've been detaching from my ABF for the past year, but more prominently in the last month since his DUI. There were a lot of family/friend deaths during that time, along with stresses at work and at home, and I realized that the only way I was going to get through it was to take his problems out of the equation. I've turned to him for emotional comfort if that's what I need, and luckily he's stepped up in that respect, but that's about it.
If he says he has a drink, I tell him I'm not seeing him that night and he has respected my distance. It is liberating to be so freed from how his alcoholism affects my moods.
Maybe I can even, one day, make healthy attachments with a potential husband, and not the toxic ones I didn't see.
I've been detaching from my ABF for the past year, but more prominently in the last month since his DUI. There were a lot of family/friend deaths during that time, along with stresses at work and at home, and I realized that the only way I was going to get through it was to take his problems out of the equation. I've turned to him for emotional comfort if that's what I need, and luckily he's stepped up in that respect, but that's about it.
If he says he has a drink, I tell him I'm not seeing him that night and he has respected my distance. It is liberating to be so freed from how his alcoholism affects my moods.
Maybe I can even, one day, make healthy attachments with a potential husband, and not the toxic ones I didn't see.
Member
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Colorado
Posts: 3,474
Interesting and insightful 'stuff' here...
Da Wife of 37 years and I are mighty independent. No Kids and, until a few years ago for Legal/Inheritance reasons, completely separate Financials and Checking Accounts. It works out fine. Re: this Forum, I used to fund my substantial [and hidden] Liquor Bill. Now, she funds her less-substantial one.
I think Partner Support is more available, and forthcoming, when it's elective. There's intrinsic 'pressure', and possible resentment, when you're doing something out of 'duty' vs. providing support because you want to see someone thrive. It helps to not feel you're 'owed' something because you've 'given' something, and vice-versa.
Currently, we're having to negotiate Social Dinners and other Events where there's mass Drinking possible. A few of those situations are OK by me for now. This is a huge change because it used to be 'anything goes'; plan whatever you want. I've gotta move along and progress/grow. I can't just stay stuck back in Liquor Land. I seen Da Light.
Just last night, she expressed a strong desire to attend a famous [and expensive] Colorado Wine & Food Festival. That's years away for me, if ever. I didn't engage on this Topic. There was no immediate need to do so and burst her bubble. I've already postponed the idea of a Ship Cruise with a Drinking Couple, and some other Drink-heavy Events in 2014. I need to pop up for Air occasionally.
I have no problem buying her some Wine if I'm near a Liquor Store anyway. Aisles of Booze just don't affect me because I hit it so hard for so long. When the Light Switch to drink flicked off, it flicked off rather completely. Perhaps advanced age, vs. being younger, is a 'plus' for resolve.
Clear Boundaries help eliminate a whole lot of Baggage and angst while avoiding inadvertent Codie enabling.
By definition, I think healthy and normal People are already detached. But, in a kind and giving way; not in an aloof, uncaring way.
Da Wife of 37 years and I are mighty independent. No Kids and, until a few years ago for Legal/Inheritance reasons, completely separate Financials and Checking Accounts. It works out fine. Re: this Forum, I used to fund my substantial [and hidden] Liquor Bill. Now, she funds her less-substantial one.
I think Partner Support is more available, and forthcoming, when it's elective. There's intrinsic 'pressure', and possible resentment, when you're doing something out of 'duty' vs. providing support because you want to see someone thrive. It helps to not feel you're 'owed' something because you've 'given' something, and vice-versa.
Currently, we're having to negotiate Social Dinners and other Events where there's mass Drinking possible. A few of those situations are OK by me for now. This is a huge change because it used to be 'anything goes'; plan whatever you want. I've gotta move along and progress/grow. I can't just stay stuck back in Liquor Land. I seen Da Light.
Just last night, she expressed a strong desire to attend a famous [and expensive] Colorado Wine & Food Festival. That's years away for me, if ever. I didn't engage on this Topic. There was no immediate need to do so and burst her bubble. I've already postponed the idea of a Ship Cruise with a Drinking Couple, and some other Drink-heavy Events in 2014. I need to pop up for Air occasionally.
I have no problem buying her some Wine if I'm near a Liquor Store anyway. Aisles of Booze just don't affect me because I hit it so hard for so long. When the Light Switch to drink flicked off, it flicked off rather completely. Perhaps advanced age, vs. being younger, is a 'plus' for resolve.
Clear Boundaries help eliminate a whole lot of Baggage and angst while avoiding inadvertent Codie enabling.
By definition, I think healthy and normal People are already detached. But, in a kind and giving way; not in an aloof, uncaring way.
Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 13,560
I believe healthy people are able to detatch from any situation. In that normal people say, I would never put up with X behavior....then they don't put up with it. They don't obsess about what will happen to the person treating them like crap to the point they are willing to be unhealthy so the other person can continue with their bad behavior.
This is just my observations when I became aware I was codependent.
This is just my observations when I became aware I was codependent.
Member
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,388
Codies have an idea of what normal is and generally have good intentions, but they want to be "normal" to people who are not normal. Codies have unrealistic expectations (they expect those "not-normals" to return "normalcy"). It is like codies got stuck somewhere in the learning process.
Normal people know their own value and have healthy boundaries. There is no need for them to detach when they never got attached to crap in the first place.
Normal people know their own value and have healthy boundaries. There is no need for them to detach when they never got attached to crap in the first place.
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Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: right here, right now
Posts: 6,516
they want to be "normal" to people who are not normal.
Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 13,560
This 100%
Originally Posted by lillamy
I think that just about sums it up. Our attitudes of helpfulness and compassion are not unhealthy in themselves, in a functional relationship -- they are however detrimental to us when we don't stop when we're being taken advantage of.
Member
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 3,443
I imagine there are different 'reasons' but normal people do not get enmeshed. Emotional enmeshment is by definition dysfunctional and from it springs all kinds of dysfunctional ways of relating to people. If you don't get enmeshed the need to detach diminishes.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: southern indiana
Posts: 2,145
normal? healthy?,,,,,what's that?
i think i had the "need to please disease" long before the alcoholic came into my life.
most relationships BA (before alcoholic) were began with me being "all in".....the other person already had all my relationship building blocks from the start....he did not have to earn them....i gave them away to him in the very beginning...unearned.
as the relationship aged and progressed, and naturally deteriorated, i would find myself in a big pile of doo-doo.
most healthy people or normies, at least require new relationship prospects to earn their way into their lives....they just don't hand everything over all at once like i did.
so, i was very broken way before i met my alcoholic and learned to use detachment.
now, detachment has become a learned skill for me and i find myself using it in everyday life. this skill has improved my life dramatically.
i think i had the "need to please disease" long before the alcoholic came into my life.
most relationships BA (before alcoholic) were began with me being "all in".....the other person already had all my relationship building blocks from the start....he did not have to earn them....i gave them away to him in the very beginning...unearned.
as the relationship aged and progressed, and naturally deteriorated, i would find myself in a big pile of doo-doo.
most healthy people or normies, at least require new relationship prospects to earn their way into their lives....they just don't hand everything over all at once like i did.
so, i was very broken way before i met my alcoholic and learned to use detachment.
now, detachment has become a learned skill for me and i find myself using it in everyday life. this skill has improved my life dramatically.
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