A good article on Alcoholic Thinking
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Originally Posted by BlueSkies1 
I have the same experience as you Ripper...it's mind boggling, isn't it? To us it feels like something awful and traumatic happened. To them? I don't know just what they are thinking the next morning except it's a new fresh day?
My recent experience exactly. I was told that what happened yesterday did not matter. It was go forward only. Words? They were only words and did not matter, let them go. They were only meant for the moment. Yet there I was, reeling in the trauma of what had happened for days on end.
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When we first started dating my ABF would text "prolly" to almost every question I had. I told him it drove me crazy and was non-commital. He finally stopped texting it but because I stopped asking him to do things for the most part.
And as for the delusions, yes. Drunken ranting then silent treatment last night. This morning, cheery morning texts.
And as for the delusions, yes. Drunken ranting then silent treatment last night. This morning, cheery morning texts.
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Originally Posted by Seren
Self-Pity and the Sense of Entitlement
The active alcoholic wallows in self-pity and concludes that they are a victim of life. As they demand more from the world they expect less and less from themselves.[/I]
The active alcoholic wallows in self-pity and concludes that they are a victim of life. As they demand more from the world they expect less and less from themselves.[/I]
Originally Posted by Seren
Appearance over Substance
The quickest route to self destruction for alcoholics are the words, “Screw it.” This is a declaration that everything is already screwed so they might as well drink. They pretend and demand that those close to them buy into the fantasy that all is well. Life becomes progressively less about anything substantive and progressively more about maintaining appearances. .[/I]
The quickest route to self destruction for alcoholics are the words, “Screw it.” This is a declaration that everything is already screwed so they might as well drink. They pretend and demand that those close to them buy into the fantasy that all is well. Life becomes progressively less about anything substantive and progressively more about maintaining appearances. .[/I]
Originally Posted by Seren
Master Manipulators
Alcoholics are master manipulators. They may not have been con artists before they started drinking but they come to have remarkable skills. They are the folks who can sell ice to Eskimos. They will pick a fight with you because they want to leave and they will have you believing it’s your fault. They show little or no accountability. They may have had integrity before their addiction kicked in but it will be conspicuously absent from their lives as they spiral. There is often one exception to this rule for each alcoholic – one thing they do especially well and it will most generally be their sole source of self esteem. We have known a large number of alcoholics who have incredible work ethics because being a good worker is the one thing they know they’re good at…well, they will say that and drinking..[/I]
Alcoholics are master manipulators. They may not have been con artists before they started drinking but they come to have remarkable skills. They are the folks who can sell ice to Eskimos. They will pick a fight with you because they want to leave and they will have you believing it’s your fault. They show little or no accountability. They may have had integrity before their addiction kicked in but it will be conspicuously absent from their lives as they spiral. There is often one exception to this rule for each alcoholic – one thing they do especially well and it will most generally be their sole source of self esteem. We have known a large number of alcoholics who have incredible work ethics because being a good worker is the one thing they know they’re good at…well, they will say that and drinking..[/I]
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Originally Posted by Boon44
I just left work on the verge of a panic attack thinking about the last time I saw my exabf and the woman I think he cheated on me with. They were singing a song together and he seemed so happy, I think he even said as much. They were not aware I was around, happened upon them in a public place and got out of there very quickly once the shock passed. I know all of these things in the article are very true....everyone of them. So why do I still panic about the thought of my life without him, why do I not feel relieved but rejected. Am I still operating under what I came to believe about myself when I was with him? When will the panic and pain stop and when will I be able to feel some relief...It's been 3 months out of a 7 year relationship...too soon?
Hey.. 3 months is such a short time sweetheart. Ah love you've been through a tremendous shock, you're probably still halfway in denial and halfway grieving. Just take your time. I'm only 1yr out of a 7yr marriage and it's been a roller-coaster. I was in denial for ages, and then he wanted to try again.. But still drink.
I'm only coming out of the 'fog' now. I'm not really upset that he's gone cos I know I can have way better. It just hurts when the kids talk about his enabler.. Her declaration to the courts that she'd tell us if he quit AA, started drinking again got him his overnights and that hurts. Being 'played' like that.
On the plus side.. She'll go from rescuer to victim in no time and his problematic drinking will lose him his access eventually.
You got lucky. They are NOT living happily after. Have you ever seen a Disney movie where Prince Charming was an addict? No. You're gonna get the Disney ending my love because you said no.
I applaud you. And lots of hugs too.
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Join Date: Oct 2017
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Thanks for bumping this. Great to re-read this article.
It is me when I was an active unrecovered alkie and it is AH as he is today as an active alkie.
In my recovery program I have worked to become the exact opposite of all these traits. I am enjoying the journey.
Onwards all.
It is me when I was an active unrecovered alkie and it is AH as he is today as an active alkie.
In my recovery program I have worked to become the exact opposite of all these traits. I am enjoying the journey.
Onwards all.
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Join Date: May 2019
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I have red this same article online few months ago! Thanks for posting by the way. What sticks to me is that this is Indeed a Mental Ilness. Someone said how you cant take paranoid shizophrenic (nor what they say) seriously, so its basically the SAME with acohol addicts- their minds just dont function properly. Period.
Which brings me to another conclusion- how we have to treat them as patients, and not as partners! At least for me this fact helped in detaching from my X. As who would want to continue to expect romance from someone who is not capable of even reasoning properly!? Hope you get my drift! 💗
Which brings me to another conclusion- how we have to treat them as patients, and not as partners! At least for me this fact helped in detaching from my X. As who would want to continue to expect romance from someone who is not capable of even reasoning properly!? Hope you get my drift! 💗
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I do get your drift and I think you make a really good point fiona. Yes, addicts are just not relationship material.
From the article, Addiction, Lies and Relationships
"At this stage of addiction the addict is in fact functionally insane. It is usually quite impossible, even sometimes harmful to attempt to talk him out of his delusions regarding his addiction. This situation is similar to that encountered in other psychotic illnesses, schizophrenia for example, in which the individual is convinced of the truth of things that are manifestly untrue to everyone else".
From the article, Addiction, Lies and Relationships
"At this stage of addiction the addict is in fact functionally insane. It is usually quite impossible, even sometimes harmful to attempt to talk him out of his delusions regarding his addiction. This situation is similar to that encountered in other psychotic illnesses, schizophrenia for example, in which the individual is convinced of the truth of things that are manifestly untrue to everyone else".
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Interesting to read, and get everyone’s perspective on it. Funny, the one thing that jumped out at me is the mental illness part too, but my take on it is a little different. I don’t think addiction is a mental illlness. But I guess it depends on how you define mental illness. I’ve been working with people diagnosed with severe mental illnesses since the 90s, and even there I think the medical model really misses the boat and doesn’t do a very good job (frankly, unless you are going to a Holistic doctor, I think they do a p**s poor job) ruling out actual physiological medical problems that cause many “mental illness” symptoms. Or trauma for that matter.
Craig Wagner on his Onward Mental Health Website has some great visuals on all of the different things that can cause mental distress, the way he explains it makes a lot of sense to me. Also Peter Wagner regarding Complex PTSD, I agree with him if you took into account trauma (physical, sexual, emotional abuse; death of a loved one, poverty, watching someone else get abused, having an addict or mentally ill parent who can’t take care of you, etc, etc- things affect people differently depending on resiliency too) and how it affects people, the DSM would be a like a pamphlet.
With addiction, to me it’s not exactly a choice - once addicted, the person isn’t “choosing”, like you would choose a bagel over eggs for breakfast. Anyone who has ever been addicted to anything, knows it’s not exactly likely that. Even if it’s cigarettes or coffee or sugar- go cold turkey off of any of those, and you’ll know a little of what withdrawal from an addictive substance is like. The person can always “choose” to get help, and that’s a very long and hard road too. Some people can and choose recovery, some even when they are trying, it doesn’t “stick” or it’s too hard for whatever reason.
With the “disease” model, it’s not like you can lock yourself in a cell and detox off of cancer or lupus for a few weeks. So don’t think it’s exactly a disease either- it’s something you are putting in your own body, and once you have a physical dependence on it, it’s very hard to stop. In that sense it takes over like a disease, but that explanation doesn’t *exactly* explain it either.
With the alcoholism as mental illness- yeah it makes a person crazy as it impairs their thinking, and can do brain damage (and to the body), but it’s not an organic condition (even if there’s a genetic component, it’s still triggered by ingesting the substance). If you kill someone drunk driving, you don’t get off by reason of insanity. So it’s not exactly that either.
I’d don’t know, it’s a little of everything, depending on how you look at it- but none of those things exactly. All I know is when you are addicted to a substance, it’s very hard to stop. It impairs a person and makes them “crazy”, for sure. As the individual with a loved one who is struggling, as much as I think it’s good to gather knowledge and understand , you still have to protect yourself. Whether you do view it as a disease or a mental illness, or some other way, how the person’s behavior is affecting you is the same end result if you stand in the line of fire and don’t get out of the way.
Craig Wagner on his Onward Mental Health Website has some great visuals on all of the different things that can cause mental distress, the way he explains it makes a lot of sense to me. Also Peter Wagner regarding Complex PTSD, I agree with him if you took into account trauma (physical, sexual, emotional abuse; death of a loved one, poverty, watching someone else get abused, having an addict or mentally ill parent who can’t take care of you, etc, etc- things affect people differently depending on resiliency too) and how it affects people, the DSM would be a like a pamphlet.
With addiction, to me it’s not exactly a choice - once addicted, the person isn’t “choosing”, like you would choose a bagel over eggs for breakfast. Anyone who has ever been addicted to anything, knows it’s not exactly likely that. Even if it’s cigarettes or coffee or sugar- go cold turkey off of any of those, and you’ll know a little of what withdrawal from an addictive substance is like. The person can always “choose” to get help, and that’s a very long and hard road too. Some people can and choose recovery, some even when they are trying, it doesn’t “stick” or it’s too hard for whatever reason.
With the “disease” model, it’s not like you can lock yourself in a cell and detox off of cancer or lupus for a few weeks. So don’t think it’s exactly a disease either- it’s something you are putting in your own body, and once you have a physical dependence on it, it’s very hard to stop. In that sense it takes over like a disease, but that explanation doesn’t *exactly* explain it either.
With the alcoholism as mental illness- yeah it makes a person crazy as it impairs their thinking, and can do brain damage (and to the body), but it’s not an organic condition (even if there’s a genetic component, it’s still triggered by ingesting the substance). If you kill someone drunk driving, you don’t get off by reason of insanity. So it’s not exactly that either.
I’d don’t know, it’s a little of everything, depending on how you look at it- but none of those things exactly. All I know is when you are addicted to a substance, it’s very hard to stop. It impairs a person and makes them “crazy”, for sure. As the individual with a loved one who is struggling, as much as I think it’s good to gather knowledge and understand , you still have to protect yourself. Whether you do view it as a disease or a mental illness, or some other way, how the person’s behavior is affecting you is the same end result if you stand in the line of fire and don’t get out of the way.
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I can certainly buy the idea of addiction as a brain disorder that affects cognition, emotional regulation, affect, object relations, etc - for long-term alcoholics, it's pretty clear that normal mental and emotional functions are offline as long as they're continuing to use their substance of choice. I can also buy the idea that a predisposition to become addicted is to some degree hardwired - pleasure circuits work differently in some people, this is largely inherited, and it puts them at higher risk for developing a physical or psychological dependence on a substance than people without that hardwiring.
What I wonder about is the moment before the alcoholic picked up their first drink (or pill, or whatever the substance/behavior is). Were they always already sick? Was the batsh!t craziness (lying, manipulating, delusions, egocentricity) always there but it was dormant until the alcohol woke it up? Or is the dysfunction actually caused by addictive behaviors and choices? This is probably a question to which there's no definite answer.
What I wonder about is the moment before the alcoholic picked up their first drink (or pill, or whatever the substance/behavior is). Were they always already sick? Was the batsh!t craziness (lying, manipulating, delusions, egocentricity) always there but it was dormant until the alcohol woke it up? Or is the dysfunction actually caused by addictive behaviors and choices? This is probably a question to which there's no definite answer.
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@Sasha1972 the way I see it after reading some interesting articles/research, subconscious is filled with all kinds of crap in everyone (not just those ‘hardwired’ for addiction). So drinking does bring those out (each and every time). I have never heard of generous and empathic and loving/warmhearted drunk. Maybe initially, when they just start with this whole thing, but longterm no. As alcohol is literally poison for the brain (and mind/body/emotions therefore). Period. Same is with pills- if there is ANYTHING unhealthy there in person’s psyche that pills could actually bring out, then they are the ones ‘to blame’ so to speak, and should be avoided like plaque. As the fact is, lot of people do have predispositions for lot of less than desirable qualities (to say the least) to happen/come out. But that doesn't mean they should take exactly THAT which emphasize it and actually makes it a reality..... Also, not everyone is impressionable in the same way (some people are shocked with “their own shadow” so to speak, some not so much), so the tolerance to crap differs, indeed. Hope that brings another perspective! 👋
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^ Sasha- there was thread not that long ago (within the past year?) where people were talking about that. Some cultures/ people believe the alcohol brings out what’s already there, other people thought it was the alcohol.
Someone I know & I were talking about that recently, regarding a mutual person we know who has a long term heroin/ opioid addiction. She was saying she thought if he never picked up the heroin, he’d be very successful. I tend to believe, knowing how he is, that even if he was successful, he’d be doing it by ripping people off out of their money, maybe some kind of shady sales job or something. Also pitting women up again each other and cheating He seems to be good at those things. I don’t think his character would be all that different :/.
My dear friend who died last year, he had the lying, but I would not have called him egocentric, or a lot of the other character traits that seem to be attributed to alcohol dependence/ addiction. He wouldn’t even let me pay for a $10 movie ticket if we went out. He still had pride, and would have rather died than screw anyone financially, unlike the guy in the ^ previous example.
I have another long term person, and it shocking how he is now compared to how he was prior to substance abuse. Prior, he was sort of like the dentist character in the move The Hangover, only a young version? Years later he’s more like Charlie Sheen, or Johnny Depp. Funny, though, prior to his addictions, there was something about him that I couldn’t quite put my finger on. He had a similar “energy” to this boyfriend I had when I was 21. The old boyfriend was starting down the path of alcohol dependence when I knew him, and him cheating prompted me leave. Later I found out his alcoholism progressed -he got into heavier drugs including heroin, and died. But this friend had the same “vibe” as the old boyfriend? You know how people say, watch for actions, not words? I do think there is a third thing, an energetic vibe/ your instincts maybe, that also clues you in? But it’s not necessarily something tangible, or that can easily be put into words, or pointed out (like actions)?
I don’t know, I do also think that sometimes certain people have a negative reaction to substances. Like the black box warning on psych meds. I remember on a forum years ago, this woman describing how her husband started taking Chantix to quit smoking, never had a history of violence or anything, but his behavior became really weird, and she saw him in the garage one night, and terror shot through her when she saw the look in his eyes, because she thought he looked like he was possessed by the devil. I can relate, because I know I don’t do well with certain substances myself, and know of other situations too where the person had a bad reaction to the drug / substance, so I believe that happens sometimes.. IDK, but no simple answers, that’s for sure.
Someone I know & I were talking about that recently, regarding a mutual person we know who has a long term heroin/ opioid addiction. She was saying she thought if he never picked up the heroin, he’d be very successful. I tend to believe, knowing how he is, that even if he was successful, he’d be doing it by ripping people off out of their money, maybe some kind of shady sales job or something. Also pitting women up again each other and cheating He seems to be good at those things. I don’t think his character would be all that different :/.
My dear friend who died last year, he had the lying, but I would not have called him egocentric, or a lot of the other character traits that seem to be attributed to alcohol dependence/ addiction. He wouldn’t even let me pay for a $10 movie ticket if we went out. He still had pride, and would have rather died than screw anyone financially, unlike the guy in the ^ previous example.
I have another long term person, and it shocking how he is now compared to how he was prior to substance abuse. Prior, he was sort of like the dentist character in the move The Hangover, only a young version? Years later he’s more like Charlie Sheen, or Johnny Depp. Funny, though, prior to his addictions, there was something about him that I couldn’t quite put my finger on. He had a similar “energy” to this boyfriend I had when I was 21. The old boyfriend was starting down the path of alcohol dependence when I knew him, and him cheating prompted me leave. Later I found out his alcoholism progressed -he got into heavier drugs including heroin, and died. But this friend had the same “vibe” as the old boyfriend? You know how people say, watch for actions, not words? I do think there is a third thing, an energetic vibe/ your instincts maybe, that also clues you in? But it’s not necessarily something tangible, or that can easily be put into words, or pointed out (like actions)?
I don’t know, I do also think that sometimes certain people have a negative reaction to substances. Like the black box warning on psych meds. I remember on a forum years ago, this woman describing how her husband started taking Chantix to quit smoking, never had a history of violence or anything, but his behavior became really weird, and she saw him in the garage one night, and terror shot through her when she saw the look in his eyes, because she thought he looked like he was possessed by the devil. I can relate, because I know I don’t do well with certain substances myself, and know of other situations too where the person had a bad reaction to the drug / substance, so I believe that happens sometimes.. IDK, but no simple answers, that’s for sure.
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